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Forums » Goals, Business Plans & Entities » Corporation type?

Corporation type? Subscribe to Corporation type?

20 posts by 13 users

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General Contractor · Warrenton, Virginia


Hi, I am new to this site and am loving what I have seen so far!

My background is that I run a remodeling company and have always been interested in the real estate market in flipping " junky" homes. Since the market has slowed down considerably in our area I believe it is time to start investing.

The first step is getting a corparate structure setup to build upon. I have no intentions of keeping my personal name on anything. So what setups are you all using?

- C Corp
- S Corp
- LLC (seems popular here, but not sure why)
- DBA

Right now I am leaning towards a C Corp, but that is just what I am used to with my remodeling business.

We are meeting with our accountant in the morning so I will pick her brain as well... But honestly, not many accountants are familiar with real estate businesses.

Thank You!


Real Estate Investor · San Diego, California


My opinion is, LLC if you're holding long positions on a property.
Corporation for short term positions.
Put the ownership of LLC's under the corporation's.


Real Estate Investor · Denver, Colorado


Here's my take, which certainly may not be the right answer.

LLC - Gives you liability protection. No effect on taxes for a single member LLC. Good for long term holdings like rentals.
S-Corp - Gives some liability protection. My accountant doesn't like these because he says the IRS has in its best interest to take away the S election if it looks like a C-corp, making you subject to corporate taxes.
C-Corp - Some liability protection. More deductions than a S-corp or having it on your personal taxes like a single member LLC. Creates double taxation on dividends
DBA - no upside, nothing but downside. Just say no.

Corporations are more complex to operate than LLCs. Corporations always have tax returns, where single member LLCs don't. Corporations provide liability protection for shareholders, but not for officers.

Self employment tax is an issue, but I won't claim I have this figured out one way or the other.

Where you live, the ease or difficulty of forming entities, and the state taxation is also something to consider.

Jon

Small_flying-phoenixJon Holdman, Flying Phoenix LLC


General Contractor · Warrenton, Virginia


Wheatie is right on the money from what I have found out from our accountant.

She was pushing LLC if partners were involved... But honestly I do not plan on holding property so I think S-Corp is right on. Also I am familiar with the S-Corp setup.

Now to get the paperwork started tomorrow!!!

... More newbie questions to come ;)


Contractor · spring hill, FL


LLC. You will personally not be held liable if anyone sues you. The corporation takes the hit. JUST be SURE you file mortgages even if your OWN on every property within the LLC. Make sure something is securing all the assets!


Real Estate Investor · DFW, Texas


I can understand the need with multifamily but frankly with single family I don't know if an LLC is worth it. Insurance for each house and then some sort of umbrella policy should be enough. The LLC just adds another layer of protection. I think most attorneys will settle for the insurance claim.

As for incorporating a rehab business with employees, that is a realm I know nothing about.


Contractor · spring hill, FL


Depends on the coverage homeowners provides. I never took a chance. A tenant gets hurt and somehow wins a few mil and I am stuck in sole posession, whew thats rough. Just a lot of things can happen. 1000 or less to set up an llc, tax breaks, personal liability not a concern. Insurance a bit tougher to get but not too bad. How I always did it!


Real Estate Investor · Rocky Face, Georgia


Here is my structure.

S-Corp for flips
LLC for Passive Income from Rentals


Real Estate Investor · Ohio


I can understand the need with multifamily but frankly with single family I don't know if an LLC is worth it. Insurance for each house and then some sort of umbrella policy should be enough.

The problem with this theory is that insurance doesn't cover many of the risks that are popular with scumbag contingency lawyers and their loser clients, such as mold, lead paint, asbestos, other environmental hazards, etc. Check your insurance and you'll see what I mean.

Good Luck,

Mike


· Jersey City, NJ


I strictly use LLC's for Liability Protection



Any structure is not protection as much as a way to reduce the damage. You want people to go away and to limit what they get if they do not go away. Insurance can be used to reduce the damage by letting the insurance company pay out.

If you personally manage a property then many of the common reasons for a law suit can still apply to you. You are the one making the decisions so you are the one who will be named. Keeping your assets in tact is the key so you loose less or the lawyer does not want to file the suit given little prospect of a large pay out.


Real Estate Investor · Ohio


Tenants love the " BLACK MOLD" thing. I've currently got one tenant that is just simply a pain in the butt. She is a constant complainer and whiner. Today, she called to say that she was moving out due to " black mold" . GOOD! I'd like nothing better than for her to get the heck out! She will be violating her 1 year lease and I'm keeping her security deposit!

That's just an example of how nutty tenants are. There is no mold in the house that I know of, but that doesn't matter. People have heard the " black mold" thing on TV and they will frequently use it when they want to break their lease.

Mike


Real Estate Investor · Denver, Colorado


I was asking the same question for a long time until my wife bought me the book, How to Start a Business in Colorado from the Smart Start Series written by the Entrepreneur Press. Some exerpts are listed below. I've condensed a lot of the information. A lawyer that specializes in the formation or corporation can obviously give you far more detail and information, but in the mean time, the basics are listed below...

General (C) Corporations
A general business corporation is the most formalized and most common type of corporation. In a c-corp, its owners are stockholders, and ownership is based on shares of stock. There is no limit to the number of stock holders. SInce the corporation operates as a seperate entity, each stockholder's personal assets are protected from attachment by creditors of the corporation. Thus, as a stockholder, your liability is limited to the capital that you have invested in the purchase of stock.
Advantages:
1. a corporation has a lifespan independent from its owners (stockholders)
2. fringe benefit costs are tax-deductible
3. personal assets are protected from business liability
4. ownership can be transfered through the sale of stock
5. It may be easy to raise operating capital through the sale of stock
Disadvantages:
1. Incorporating involves considerable start-up expenses
2. profits are subject to dual taxation - as profits and again as dividends
3. many legal formalities exist when filing and trying to maintain corporate status
4. activities are limited to those defined in the corporate charter

S Corporations
The S Corporation is a form of the general corporation that has a special tax status with the IRS and many states.
-The most attractive benefit of an S corporation is the avoidance of double taxation. S corporations avoid this dual taxation because all losses and profits are " passed through" the corporation to the shareholders and are declared only once to the IRS, as part of each shareholder's income.
-There is a downside however, all profits must be taxed. If the corporation makes a profit, each share holder is required to pay taxes on their proportionate share of that profit regardless if that profit is distributed or not. If there is a disagreement with the IRS, the IRS can obtain payment from the assets of individual shareholders.
-On the other hand, if the s corp loses money, there may be a significant tax benefit to it shareholders. THe loss is passed on to the each shareholder proportionate to their stock ownership.
-As in other forms of corporations, each shareholder's personal assets are protected from the business's debts.
-In order to form an S Corporation, you must meet specific requirements set by the IRS (I only listed some of the larger items of interest below). Your business must:
1. already exist as a corporation (c-corp most likely)
2. have no more than 75 shareholders
3. Be headquartered in the US
4. Not have shareholders who are nonresident aliens
5. not be a financial institution that takes deposits or makes loans
6. not have more than 25% of the corporation's gross receipts from passive sources, such as interest, dividends, RENT, royalties, or proceeds from the sale of securities. This provision has several conditoins, so be sure to clearly understand how it may affect you if you company expects income from these sources.

Limited Liability Company
LLC's are still a relatively new and highly touted business entity. It is similiar to an S-Corp without its restrictions. In an LLC, owners are referred to as members. The loss of a member through death, retirement, or resignation can result in the dissolution of the business. However, like a corporation, an LLC offers some protection for personal assets from business creditors. An interesting characteristic is the lack of limitation on the number and nature of its members. However, most states will require at least two members to form an LLC.
Advantages:
1. profits and losses pass through the company to its owners for tax purposes
2. personal assets are protected from business liability
3. there is no limitation on the number or nature of owners
4. an LLC is simpler to operate than a corporation
5. LLCs are not subject to corporate formalities
6. Owners may participate in the management of the business
7. Some tax advantages result from business losses or high profits
Disadvantages
1. an LLC may be recognized differently in different states
2. limits of liability have not been extensively tested in litigation
3. legal assistance is needed to properly set up and structure an LLC

ENJOY!



Brian,

A great summery. I expect a number of folks will benefit from it. Thanks for sharing.


Real Estate Investor · Denver, Colorado


Thanks REI. I just wanted to share some of the research that I have been doing myself. As an engineer I tend to ask the question " why" a lot. Like " why" is an LLC the prefered corporation type for real estate investing. It's pretty obvious that the wife understands me well enough to track down that book by the smart start series so that I could get the answers. I'll still use accountants and lawyers as needed, but I like to have a general understanding of what they are talking about.



Brian,

I get the point about being an engineer.

I have been told more than once that I focus too much on the details and why they matter. I generally say that as an engineer I am paid to deal with the details. Some get it and others do not.

Lets stay in touch. Engineers need to hang together.

BTW - When I worked in Silicon Valley I found that many engineers liked REI. Lots of numbers and no real need to be slick or the life of the party.


Real Estate Investor · Erie, Pennsylvania


Another engineer chiming in here...

I just started a real estate investing company and our goal is to hold long term rentals. We talked to a few lawyers and they all suggested an LLC due to the tax benefits and liability protection. I'm not going to claim that I know all there is to know about this (I'm FAR from an expert on it).

I've also heard mention of " liability insurance" as a way to mitigate your liability as opposed to relying on your business entity to do so. Liability insurance is something I'm currently investigating and I'd be more than happy to hear from someone that may know something about it. If not, I'll share what I learn when I get there.


Real Estate Investor · new york, NY


Originally posted by "Bizern1018"

6. not have more than 25% of the corporation's gross receipts from passive sources, such as interest, dividends, RENT, royalties, or proceeds from the sale of securities. This provision has several conditoins, so be sure to clearly understand how it may affect you if you company expects income from these sources.

Bizern, I have an S corp set up and would like to know what this provision means and where you got this info? I was not aware of it...


Real Estate Investor · new york, NY


also why does everyone suggest an LLC for long term holds, why not an s corp?



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