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Forums » Goals, Business Plans & Entities » Combination of LLC and Umbrella Ins., what to do?

Combination of LLC and Umbrella Ins., what to do? Subscribe to Combination of LLC and Umbrella Ins., what to do?

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· Orlando, Florida


This is for a SFH and an LLC that I don't own yet. I've been calling some insurance companies but still don't completely understand this.

I've been told by the insurance companies that I've talked to that the liability part of dwelling fire will only go up to 300K and that I need to get an umbrella to go up to 1 million.

But I've been told on the forums that a personal umbrella liability plan won't work for rental properties (it will exclude "business activity")

Do you use a business umbrella for your LLC? Is it a lot more expensive than a personal umbrella?

I'm trying to get some rough idea of the costs of not using only insurance (no entity) vs. LLC + business umbrella. Thanks.


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


What you should look for is a landlord insurance policy. Allstate, American Modern and Homeowners Insurance company carry it and I'm sure some others do too.
My policies covers me up to $600,000. If you are really concern about a potential law suit, consult with a lawyer as to the level of protection measures you need to take. To the best of my knowledge, a plaintiff needs to prove negligence on part of the defender and unless you were notified of a problem and neglected to fix it, it is hard to prove. Also, if you use PM, it somewhat reduces your personal or your company's direct liability. Off course, everybody can sue you, but whether or not they can prove negligence, is another question. Again, I'd strongly recommend consulting with a lawyer if you are concern about it.


· Orlando, Florida


Thanks Eddie. I'll check into landlord insurance.

I just called another insurance agent about the "business umbrella" and the news wasn't encouraging. It costs roughly twice as much as personal umbrella--which might not be too bad in and of itself, since personal is cheap--but I would have to get a separate policy for each LLC, which starts getting expensive fast.

Also, he said a lot of companies won't write business umbrella, and if they do they often require a minimum of 500K basic liability on your dwelling fire policy. Since every company I've called so far will only do up to 300K on dwelling fire, that leaves me out in the cold.


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Bienes:
There are two different issues here. Dwelling insurance and liability. If you are talking about insuring your property so you can get compensated against lost, it is one issue and it roughly depends on the assessed value and the age of the property as well as the kind of policy you have (Cost of replacement, or monitory compensation). Liability is a whole different issue and it covers a third party such as tenant, neighbor, labourer,etc. Although labourer should be covered by workman comp.


Real Estate Investor · North Carolina


Ask about a General Liability policy. Also, ask some local landlords who their insurance agent is, because s/he will be able to advise you.

What is your reasoning for forming one or more LLCs?

An LLC is not a magic cloak of invincibility for owning real estate. If you (through your LLC) do something wrong in any number of areas, any newly-minted law-school graduate can pierce the LLC and come after YOU and all of YOUR ASSETS.

Advice from a qualified asset protection attorney will be money well spent.


· Orlando, Florida


Mark, I did go to an expensive AP atty for advice and was advised of an expensive plan that I didn't completely understand, and decided not to do. He also recommended putting 1 property per 1 LLC, which I find extreme, when most people don't recommend that. I then paid another lawyer (non AP) for advice. This person was somewhat helpful but still didn't answer all my questions. So I'm completely done with them for the time being. I was thinking of creating 3 LLCs (over a period of years) and putting 2 or 3 properties in each to get a happy medium.

Do you think I should just ditch the idea of using entities and go with insurance only?

Originally posted by NC Mark
Ask about a General Liability policy. Also, ask some local landlords who their insurance agent is, because s/he will be able to advise you.

What is your reasoning for forming one or more LLCs?

An LLC is not a magic cloak of invincibility for owning real estate. If you (through your LLC) do something wrong in any number of areas, any newly-minted law-school graduate can pierce the LLC and come after YOU and all of YOUR ASSETS.

Advice from a qualified asset protection attorney will be money well spent.



· Orlando, Florida


I understand the dwelling part, it's the liability I don't know how to set up. I could go with the 300K basic liability that's offered with the dwelling policy but I don't know that amount is too low.

Originally posted by Eddie Ziv
Bienes:
There are two different issues here. Dwelling insurance and liability. If you are talking about insuring your property so you can get compensated against lost, it is one issue and it roughly depends on the assessed value and the age of the property as well as the kind of policy you have (Cost of replacement, or monitory compensation). Liability is a whole different issue and it covers a third party such as tenant, neighbor, labourer,etc. Although labourer should be covered by workman comp.



· Orlando, Florida


update: another insurance agent (I had left a VM with her) called back. She said they could write a General Liability for an LLC of up to 500K (per incident), 1 million agregate. Then I would have to get umbrella if I wanted to go any higher than that, but she didn't think it was necessary to do that.

Before, I didn't understand that you needed general liability first before you could get an umbrella. I thought you bought the umbrella policy on top of the 300K of liability that comes with the dwelling policy.


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


With regard to LLC, asset protection lawyers hype the issue because they make lots of money setting it up. That not to say that you shouldn't seek protection.
I have a good friend who's been in real estate investment for 15 years and own 12 rental SFR in Arizona, Texas and Tennessee. None of his properties are under LLC, corporation or any other entity. I personally think it's too risky but he has never been sued.

You should ask yourself how much investment (VS loan) you have in the property. The more you have , the more exposed you are. I own two properties in Texas which are under a Wyoming LLC and I own three properties in Alabama which I'm in the process of transferring them to an Alabama LLC. 98% of That LLC is owned by another LLC and I only have 1% personal interest in that LLC. But as Mark said, if some wants to get to you, they'll find ways.
Win or lose, getting sued is a ***** enough and anybody can do that.


Real Estate Investor · North Carolina


Bienes:

Sounds like your expensive AP attorney was trying to line his pockets at your expense -- one property per LLC?!!!

IMO, LLCs are a great racket for states to charge you, for your accountant to charge you for the separate tax return, and for your registered agent to charge you.

Plus, there are rumors in the wind about a new corporate tax on LLCs. Wonderful.

I own properties both personally and within an LLC. A fair number of small landlords don't even bother with LLCs until they reach a larger size.

Proper insurance is the critical factor. That, and conducting business ethically and within accepted legal boundaries.

Pessimistically speaking, however, between nuisance lawsuits, insurance companies willing to settle, and tenant-friendly socialist communities, investing in real estate can be a stacked deck even for the best landlord.


· Orlando, Florida


I've thought about not using entities at all, but everyone says it's so dangerous to own properties in your own name. Plus I'm not sure what my insurance options are if I own them in my own name--I was told not to use personal umbrella for rental properties because it has lots of exclusions.

The idea of using no more than 3 LLCs and spreading the cost of the entities over a group of properties seemed like a good compromise to me. 1 LLC for each prop is not something I want to do. That could be a disaster if they decide to raise fees, plus it's too many bank accounts and paperwork to manage.

I will be managing the properties myself. As I understand it they have to prove that you were negligent, or that you didn't bother with a repair after they informed you about it to sue you individually.

Interestingly, both attorneys told me not to worry at all about being sued individually if I was managing the properties myself. Although that made me feel better, it also contradicts everything else I've read.


Real Estate Investor · Murray Hill, New Jersey


Originally posted by Bienes Raices

Interestingly, both attorneys told me not to worry at all about being sued individually if I was managing the properties myself. Although that made me feel better, it also contradicts everything else I've read.

This could not be further from the truth. You should use an LLC, but managing the property yourself puts you more personally at risk than having a property manager. The more "passive" your ownership (you don't get involved in the day-to-day business), the more likely your LLC protection is to hold up in court.

With regard to insurance, try Foremost. They do landlord insurance all the time (I've used them), and they know what they're talking about. If you go through an agent that isn't familiar with landlord policies, you'll end up paying a lot for something that doesn't offer the protection you need. The most important part of landlord insurance is liability protection. Another coverage particular to landlord policies is "loss of income". These facts might not even occur to someone who sells regular homeowner policies.


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Dave,
How's Foremost rates are measured up compare to others like Allstate and American Modern?

Thanks,


· Orlando, Florida


Dave,
I knew that was too good to be true.
I basically plan to do the repairs soon after the tenants ask, and document everything.
I'll call Foremost and see if I can get some more information.

Originally posted by Dave V.
Originally posted by Bienes Raices

Interestingly, both attorneys told me not to worry at all about being sued individually if I was managing the properties myself. Although that made me feel better, it also contradicts everything else I've read.


This could not be further from the truth. You should use an LLC, but managing the property yourself puts you more personally at risk than having a property manager. The more "passive" your ownership (you don't get involved in the day-to-day business), the more likely your LLC protection is to hold up in court.

With regard to insurance, try Foremost. They do landlord insurance all the time (I've used them), and they know what they're talking about. If you go through an agent that isn't familiar with landlord policies, you'll end up paying a lot for something that doesn't offer the protection you need. The most important part of landlord insurance is liability protection. Another coverage particular to landlord policies is "loss of income". These facts might not even occur to someone who sells regular homeowner policies.




Real Estate Investor · Murray Hill, New Jersey


Originally posted by Eddie Ziv
Dave,
How's Foremost rates are measured up compare to others like Allstate and American Modern?



Couldn't tell you, Eddie. Never worked with either of them. I do know that Foremost is very easy to work with. Never had a claim yet though, so I can't speak on that. Plus they don't do anything larger than 4 units.

Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Thanks Dave.
I don't deal with multi-family, only SFR, but my experience is a strange one. In Texas, my properties were insured with Wellington and it ran about $600 annually per structure. My agent recently recommended Homeowner Insurance (That the name of the company) which was much cheaper (high of $400s). The value of the properties is about $100K each. In Alabama, my properties run half of that value but my insurance is almost twice as much.One with Allstate and the others With American Modern. AM is slightly lower then Allstate, but I'll check Foremost. Their site suggests that they have agents in Birmingham.


· Orlando, Florida


"Homeowner Insurance Co.", lol, how original...

New twist of events: I just found out the insurance companies around here that will insure in the name of an LLC (some won't at all) completely exclude liability for an LLC. I would have to get a separate expensive Commercial general liability policy for each LLC. And they can't really give me a real quote on the gen. liability until I have the actual property that I want to buy. But I kind of need to know how much it costs now so I can decide whether or not to even form the LLC. :roll: :roll: :roll:

On top of the costs of separate bank accounts for each LLC, the annual registered agents fees if I do that, and the annual filing fees, and possibly doing a separate tax return(s) if it's taxed as an s-corp, the costs of these entities is really starting to add up!

I'll call Foremost though--maybe the Landlord Insurance idea will work with an LLC. If that doesn't work out I'm out of ideas.

Originally posted by Eddie Ziv
Thanks Dave.
I don't deal with multi-family, only SFR, but my experience is a strange one. In Texas, my properties were insured with Wellington and it ran about $600 annually per structure. My agent recently recommended Homeowner Insurance (That the name of the company) which was much cheaper (high of $400s). The value of the properties is about $100K each. In Alabama, my properties run half of that value but my insurance is almost twice as much.One with Allstate and the others With American Modern. AM is slightly lower then Allstate, but I'll check Foremost. Their site suggests that they have agents in Birmingham.



Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Bienes:
I've never heard of not covering LLC for liability. Take Dave's advice and make sure you're dealing with an agent that represent companies that do landlord's policies. Also, I'm not sure where your property or properties are but you can check Foremost, Allstate, American Modern and other's web sites to see what type of insurance they offers. Some of them list their agents that you can contact any of them once you find the product that suit you.


Real Estate Investor · Audubon, Pennsylvania


One option you might want to look at is Renovator's Insurance Program from:
http://www.wrennins.com/


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Wrenn sound good but it seems like they are only doing Business in KS and MO.


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