5/25/12 IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: MAJOR BP Update Next Week!

Hide this

Jump to Category View All

Click a category below to view different forum categories.

BiggerPockets

General Info

Rss10 BiggerPockets Q&A, Site Questions, & Announcements

1001 topics, 8184 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:43PM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Exclusive PRO Area

12 topics, 81 posts — Last Post 03/23/12, 03:25PM

Rss10 New Member Introductions

4596 topics, 26506 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 04:49AM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Success Stories

152 topics, 1813 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:22AM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Real Estate Investing Summit

87 topics, 1549 posts — Last Post 05/07/12, 02:13PM

General Real Estate

General Real Estate

Rss10 Buying Real Estate

1318 topics, 10384 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:22PM

Rss10 Selling Real Estate

320 topics, 2544 posts — Last Post 05/08/12, 07:34PM

Rss10 Renters

202 topics, 1618 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 11:34AM

Rss10 Get Foreclosure Help - Help Stop Foreclosure Forum

221 topics, 1747 posts — Last Post 05/18/12, 08:38PM

Rss10 Home Owner Association (HOA) Issues & Problems Forum

111 topics, 719 posts — Last Post 05/08/12, 06:37AM

Rss10 Do it Yourself

328 topics, 2841 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 09:10AM

Reviews & Feedback

Rss10 Real Estate Deal Analysis and Advice

1625 topics, 12970 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:31PM

Rss10 Real Estate Guru, Book & Course Reviews and Discussions

700 topics, 7128 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 02:16PM

Rss10 Ask About A Real Estate Company

330 topics, 4781 posts — Last Post 05/10/12, 10:31PM

Real Estate Investing

Real Estate Strategies

Rss10 Wholesaling

2588 topics, 19948 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:14PM

Rss10 Rehabbing and House Flipping

1622 topics, 14294 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:39PM

Rss10 Real Estate Development

202 topics, 1123 posts — Last Post 05/19/12, 07:40AM

Rss10 Pre-Construction & New Home Construction

90 topics, 600 posts — Last Post 05/05/12, 11:02AM

Rss10 Innovative Strategies

377 topics, 2934 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 07:34PM

Rss10 Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, & Cash Flows Discussion

477 topics, 2845 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:20PM

Rss10 Rent to Own a.k.a. Lease Purchase, Lease Options

355 topics, 2228 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 09:55AM

Rss10 1031 Exchanges

62 topics, 342 posts — Last Post 04/29/12, 08:09PM

Foreclosure Investing

Rss10 General Foreclosure & Pre-Foreclosure Forums

1156 topics, 7084 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 06:30PM

Rss10 HUD, VA, and Tax Sales

215 topics, 1326 posts — Last Post 05/18/12, 12:01PM

Rss10 REOs

948 topics, 7884 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 05:04PM

Rss10 Short Sales

1254 topics, 10440 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 01:58PM

Landlord & Tenant Forums

Rss10 Rental Property Questions & Landlording Issues

3183 topics, 28801 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 09:14AM

Rss10 Land & Farm Investing

118 topics, 734 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:43PM

Rss10 Mobile Homes & Mobile Home Park Investing

416 topics, 3071 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 05:40PM

Real Estate Dealmaking

Rss10 Make Deals, Find Partners, Mentors & BirdDogs, etc.

3703 topics, 13609 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:44PM

Rss10 Promote Your Real Estate Buyer's List

160 topics, 689 posts — Last Post 05/02/12, 05:54AM

Rss10 Property Wanted

635 topics, 3041 posts — Last Post 05/19/12, 07:44AM

Rss10 Seeking Financing, Money, or Loans

1245 topics, 7437 posts — Last Post 05/21/12, 10:41AM

Rss10 Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, & Cash Flows Dealmaking

277 topics, 1909 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 06:40PM

Rss10 Bulk REO Discussion and REO Dealmaking

843 topics, 5906 posts — Last Post 02/02/12, 04:20PM

Investor Basics

Rss10 Starting Out

4197 topics, 30898 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 03:17PM

Rss10 Investor Psychology

298 topics, 4486 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 09:01PM

Rss10 General Real Estate Investing

3144 topics, 21839 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:37PM

Rss10 Real Estate Investor Marketing

910 topics, 7482 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:26AM

Commercial Real Estate

Rss10 Commercial Real Estate Investing Forum

743 topics, 3995 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 08:46AM

Rss10 Multi-Family and Apartment Investing

219 topics, 2013 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 11:11AM

Rss10 Office Investing

3 topics, 36 posts — Last Post 11/15/11, 02:42PM

Rss10 Industrial Property Investing

4 topics, 14 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 06:44AM

Rss10 Retail Property Investing

10 topics, 77 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:15AM

Rss10 CRE Financing and Lending

26 topics, 247 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 05:27AM

Rss10 CRE Syndication and Fundraising

26 topics, 236 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 04:52PM

Rss10 CRE Property Management & Leasing

2 topics, 12 posts — Last Post 05/18/12, 12:34PM

The Business of Real Estate

Real Estate Technology and the Internet

Rss10 Technology, Social Media, Real Estate & The Web

269 topics, 2277 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 07:40AM

Rss10 Real Estate Blogs & Blogging

24 topics, 293 posts — Last Post 05/16/12, 09:29PM

Business Basics

Rss10 Goals, Business Plans & Entities

428 topics, 4273 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 09:08PM

Real Estate Finance & Legal

Financial, Tax, and Legal

Rss10 Tax, Legal Issues, Contracts, Self-Directed IRA

1349 topics, 9465 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 07:35AM

Rss10 Credit & Credit Repair

182 topics, 1484 posts — Last Post 05/22/12, 06:06PM

Rss10 Property Insurance

135 topics, 846 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:16AM

Rss10 Bankruptcy

21 topics, 113 posts — Last Post 05/21/12, 08:25PM

Loans, Mortgages, Credit Lines

Rss10 Private & Conventional Lending Discussion

1346 topics, 8084 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:30PM

Rss10 Creative Real Estate Financing

659 topics, 4285 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 10:58AM

Real Estate Professionals

Real Estate Professionals

Rss10 Real Estate Agents

639 topics, 3562 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 07:47PM

Rss10 Bankers, Lenders, and Mortgage Brokers

355 topics, 1268 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 01:18AM

Rss10 Contractors

121 topics, 666 posts — Last Post 05/08/12, 03:20PM

Local Real Estate

International Real Estate

Local Real Estate

Rss10 Local Real Estate Networking

612 topics, 3434 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 02:08PM

Rss10 Americans & International Real Estate

139 topics, 505 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 02:00PM

Rss10 Foreigners Buying in the USA

56 topics, 288 posts — Last Post 05/02/12, 07:54PM

Rss10 Canadian Real Estate

26 topics, 130 posts — Last Post 03/19/12, 05:58PM

Marketplace

Real Estate Marketplace

Rss10 Mortgages & Lending

392 topics, 1757 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 03:10AM

Rss10 Residential Property, Land, & Farms For Sale

760 topics, 1463 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 06:58PM

Rss10 Real Estate Events & Happenings

118 topics, 505 posts — Last Post 05/07/12, 10:07PM

Rss10 Commercial Properties for Sale or Lease

224 topics, 671 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:42AM

Rss10 Domains & Website Reviews

48 topics, 391 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 07:07AM

Rss10 Classifieds - Promote your Website, Newsletter, or Product

595 topics, 2801 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 06:42PM

Off-Topic

Off Topic

Rss10 Off-Topic

1866 topics, 19997 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:12AM

Rss10 Housing News & Real Estate Market

666 topics, 6615 posts — Last Post 05/09/12, 03:11PM

BiggerPockets Resources

Forums » Seeking Financing, Money, or Loans » Seeking Partner for Multi-family. Financing is in the works, looking for partner for down payment.

Seeking Partner for Multi-family. Financing is in the works, looking for partner for down payment. Subscribe to Seeking Partner for Multi-family. Financing is in the works, looking for partner for down payment.

16 posts by 8 users

Signup

Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, Colorado


Hello,

I have been in the process of getting a deal together for a multi-family property in Colorado. I have a lender inline to finance the purchase with a 2nd mortgage from the seller. The lender is requesting that 10% be brought to the table. I am seeking a partner who would be willing to provide the down payment. All terms would be up for discussion. Here are some of the property details, please DM me for more information.

34 town house units
Average unit is 1040 Sqft
Average rent $575
Asking price is 1,999,000
Offer is currently at 1,600,000
Purposed 1st mortgage 850K
Purposed 2nd mortgage 650K

10% down payment would be 160,000 at current offer.


Real Estate Investor · New Jersey


Even at a price of $1,600,000 you are looking at a per unit cost of just over $47,000. I think most people here will consider that too high a price for $575 in rent.


Real Estate Investor · Wheat Ridge, Colorado


$575 in rent implies $287.50 in expenses leaving $287.50 for NOI. $47K at 6% for 30 years is a payment of $282. That leaves only $5 per month per unit in cash flow if you finance this at 6%. I suspect with your combination of loans is at a higher rate than 6%.

Small_flying-phoenixJon Holdman, Flying Phoenix LLC


Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, Colorado


Originally posted by NewInvestorNJ
Even at a price of $1,600,000 you are looking at a per unit cost of just over $47,000. I think most people here will consider that too high a price for $575 in rent.

The rent of $575 a month is under market. The current owner owns the property free and clear. In the local market apartments around 600 Sqft and in the same condition are renting at $575. Each unit in this apartment is an average of 1040 Sqft.

Originally posted by JonHoldman
$575 in rent implies $287.50 in expenses leaving $287.50 for NOI. $47K at 6% for 30 years is a payment of $282. That leaves only $5 per month per unit in cash flow if you finance this at 6%. I suspect with your combination of loans is at a higher rate than 6%.

At the current rent rate of $575 it does not leave much cash flow after debt services. The plan is as old tenants leave and new come in, to raise the rent to an amount closer to the local market rate. I also plan to raise current rates as leases renew, at a fair rate as to not loss current tenants who currently pay under market rates. I will have a local Management company who will handle the property management so that it is done currently.

These are great points, thank you both :D



SFR Investor · Long Beach, California


What about capital reserves? It sounds like this needs a fair amount of upside management/rehabbing. What are the market rents for a unit the size this building contains? What about rehab costs per unit? At that debt level you really don't have any room if anything unexpected happens or you suddenly get several unexpected vacancies.


Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, Colorado


Originally posted by Brian Levredge
What about capital reserves? It sounds like this needs a fair amount of upside management/rehabbing. What are the market rents for a unit the size this building contains? What about rehab costs per unit? At that debt level you really don't have any room if anything unexpected happens or you suddenly get several unexpected vacancies.


Great point Brian, I will be the selling Agent on this deal and plan to put a large amount of my net commission up as reserves.

Also the property has an average rate of 8% for vacancy. It also has other income from on site services. The property is not in need of rehab, the current owner chose not to raise rents with the market change. So the rents are just under market rate, not because of condition. As to the current rates for a apartment this size, the listing agent gives a rate of $750. I feel if the rates are raised to $650 at the current time we would have no issue renting any newly vacant units quickly.

Jon the current financials, state an average monthly expense of 264.75 per unit, with that plus the additional income debt services are cover with a small amount of cash flow at its current rate. This is a buy and hold plan, Net income will increase as rental rates are increased through the plan, the mortgages will be refinanced as better rates present them selves, along with a great accounting plan.
:D


Real Estate Investor · Wheat Ridge, Colorado


$267.75 per unit is a little lower than the $287.50 implied by the 50% rule. Read the sticky posts in the rental property forum about true rental property expenses. Ignore that rule at your peril.

Now, if you mean the actual expenses are $267.75 plus an 8% vacancy, which would be $46 per unit per month, then you're over the 50% rule of thumb. Also consider capital expense (roofs, drains, HVAC, etc). That may not apply if you're doing a quick flip, but certainly will if you're planning on a long term hold.

You're about to make one very serious error, though. That's buying based on what could be, not what is. Buy on the current situation, not what might be possible. If the owner wants a "proforma" price based on pretending what could be done with the property, he needs to do it, then sell. If you're buying now, buy on what is.

Or else, figure out a value based on the to be figures. Then, figure out the losses due to the undermarket rents and the time it will take to bring them up. Subtract that off the price. Even if the market is higher, you're going to have a lot of turnover if you bump up the rents very quickly. Unless you're absolutely certain there are no alternatives, bumping from $575 to $650 is going to cause a very large percentage turnover. That's a 15% bump. That's going to create a month or two of vacancy, plus a make ready for each unit. If you're going to try that, you might try a big jump and just plan on 100% turnover.

Be sure you KNOW the lease situation on each unit. You want copies of all leases and you want estoppel letters from each and every tenant to be sure you're not going to hear "the previous owner agreed to a 10 year lease at $575. Try to raise my rent and I'll sue."

Small_flying-phoenixJon Holdman, Flying Phoenix LLC


Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, Colorado


Originally posted by Jon Holdman
Now, if you mean the actual expenses are $267.75 plus an 8% vacancy, which would be $46 per unit per month, then you're over the 50% rule of thumb. Also consider capital expense (roofs, drains, HVAC, etc). That may not apply if you're doing a quick flip, but certainly will if you're planning on a long term hold.

You're about to make one very serious error, though. That's buying based on what could be, not what is. Buy on the current situation, not what might be possible. If the owner wants a "proforma" price based on pretending what could be done with the property, he needs to do it, then sell. If you're buying now, buy on what is.

Or else, figure out a value based on the to be figures. Then, figure out the losses due to the undermarket rents and the time it will take to bring them up. Subtract that off the price. Even if the market is higher, you're going to have a lot of turnover if you bump up the rents very quickly. Unless you're absolutely certain there are no alternatives, bumping from $575 to $650 is going to cause a very large percentage turnover. That's a 15% bump. That's going to create a month or two of vacancy, plus a make ready for each unit. If you're going to try that, you might try a big jump and just plan on 100% turnover.

Be sure you KNOW the lease situation on each unit. You want copies of all leases and you want estoppel letters from each and every tenant to be sure you're not going to hear "the previous owner agreed to a 10 year lease at $575. Try to raise my rent and I'll sue."


Thanks Jon, the amount figured for vacancy is included in the 267.75. I plan on raising the current tenants rates at a much slower pace. Any vacancies would be rented at the new rate of $650. This way I would keep good tenants and avoid a large turnover. I don't plan to live off the cash flow so the smaller amount does not bug me in fact I plan to place some of my share of profits back into the apartments. Keep building a reserve and have money for improvements.

I once heard a guru say when offering someone a discount on a real estate note say, "If I was to offer you two bills one is a $100 but you had to take payments over a long period of time and the other is $50 which you could have now,which one would you take."

Most people would take the 50 dollar bill, but I would take the 100 over a long period of time :D


Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, Colorado


On my last post I made a mistake. The amount figured for vacancy is not included in the 267.75. I miss read. I apologize for that error. :(

There is other income from on site services and storage rentals. stated at $38,000, which happily makes up for the 8% rate plus a little more :)


Real Estate Investor · Wheat Ridge, Colorado


$1.6 million at 8% full amortized for 30 years is $345 a unit. With $268 in actual stated expenses, plus $46 a unit you're at $659. I don't see anything allocated for capital items.

And you're not going to get that last $160k for 8%. Hard money loans at a max of 70% are 15% plus four points around here. That last $160K if FAR, FAR riskier than any 70% HML. I'd be looking at 24% (which probably exceeds CO usury laws) and only a year or two interest only.

Really, what I would be looking for to do a deal like this would be a plan to sell the property in a few years and to get a significant cut of the sale price. I might consider something like 12% interest only for 3-5 years.

Unfortunately, that leaves you cash flow negative in a big way. The loan on the first 90% amounts to $311 a month per unit. Plus vacancy and claimed expenses, and you're at $625 per month per unit. The IO payment on the last $160K is $47 a month, so now you're at $672 a month. Compared with $575 rents (which is what you're locked into at the start), you're losing $97 a month per unit.

Lets be a little more precise. You say vacancy is 8% out of 34 units. I guess that's three units currently vacant. So, lets ignore the vacancy allowance to do the math. That puts your total nut at $626 a month. On the 31 that are rented at $575, you're losing $51 a month. On the three vacant units, you're losing $626 a month. That makes your total monthy loss $5351. (I'm using more exact numbers in my spreadsheet, so there may be rounding errors.) If nothing changes for the first year, you would be right at $41,438 in total losses. The $38K in other income does make up for that, almost. But nothing left for capital. So any improvements are going to have to come from somewhere else.

You're never going to be at 100% occupancy, and if you start raising rents, even by $25 a month, your vacancy is going to go up. Not as bad as if you try raising it $75 a month, but there will be a hit even at $25. And at $25 a year increase, you're going to be a LONG time getting up to market.

Lets consider the potential future value. From this discussion I get:
Gross scheduled rent: $234,600
Vacancy: $18,768
Claimed expenses: $109,344
Other income: $38,000
Calculated NOI: $144,488
Calculated cap rate 9%

Now 9%'s not a great cap rate, frankly. On a commercial property you make the difference between your cap rate and the interest rate on the financed portion plus the full cap rate on your down payment. Even that overstates income because you have to make principle payments, too, which eat into your cut. Yeah, you'll get them back when you sell, but while you're holding they're just as painful as any other expenses. So, if you were 90% financed at 8% and 10% financed at 12%, you're making 1% on 90% and -3% on 10%, which boils down to 0.6% of the $1.6M in return, and you have to cover the principle payments out of that $9600 return. Since you don't have the 20-30% of your own cash to put into this deal, this is going to suck money out of your pocket each and every month.

Nevertheless, lets use the 9% cap and the "to be" situation to see what its worth. Lets assume you get all units up to $750 and get the expenses in line with the 50% rule (they're well over now, 55% without including capital items). Now I get:

Gross scheduled rent: $750/unit/month
Gross scheduled rent: $206,000
"Expenses": $153,000 (50% rule, include vacancy and capital)
Other income: $38,000
NOI: $191,000
Cap rate: 9%
Implied price: 2,122,222
Debt service: $146,000
Cash flow: $45,000
Cash flow/unit/month $110

So, at that point its actually a decent deal. And, you could sell and pocket about $500K in profit. As a turnaround, and assuming you can really get the rents to $750 and you can get the expenses under control, this would work. I see some pain on the way to getting there, and a pretty significant risk of you getting into a bind and losing the property, since you're so highly leveraged and have nothing in reserves. Were I taking that top end piece, I'd want to give you enough additional cash to give you some working capital. That would hurt your cash flow position even worse, but at least you woudl be able to handle a hiccup when it came along. I'd also want to see a plan to get those rents up as quickly as possible, and to sell the place and let us both walk away with the cash. Or, if you want to keep it, a plan for you to refi and get my chuck of the backend back to me. An 80% refi would net you about $1.7 million, so you could potentially give me back $100K (plus my payoff), less the refi expenses ($50K?) plus the paydown you've made on the first and second (about $70K after five years).

I guess the bottom line is I see some potential here, but you need more cash than you think.

Have you done a deal like this before? I get the impresion you have not.

Small_flying-phoenixJon Holdman, Flying Phoenix LLC


Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, Colorado


Originally posted by Jon Holdman
$1.6 million at 8% full amortized for 30 years is $345 a unit. With $268 in actual stated expenses, plus $46 a unit you're at $659. I don't see anything allocated for capital items.

The loans I currently have lined up are;
1st at $850,000 at around 9.75% interest with an interest only payment of $7251.56. With a two year term (I'll explain this in a few)
2nd at $650,000 at 6%, 30 year term, monthly payment of $3,897.08.
So my total debt services are 11,148.64, $327.90 a door.
Originally posted by Jon Holdman
And you're not going to get that last $160k for 8%. Hard money loans at a max of 70% are 15% plus four points around here. That last $160K if FAR, FAR riskier than any 70% HML. I'd be looking at 24% (which probably exceeds CO usury laws) and only a year or two interest only.
Really, what I would be looking for to do a deal like this would be a plan to sell the property in a few years and to get a significant cut of the sale price. I might consider something like 12% interest only for 3-5 years.

My plan would be to create a LLC for this company. Since an LLC is treated as a partnership when it comes to accounting. I would be willing to give the cash partner a 3% interest allowance on their investment (which for those who not familiar with accounting just means before any partners get paid the partner with this allowance is paid 3% interest on their capital investment) You talk about needed a larger cash investment to cover any hiccups so I propose a investment of $200,000. Which with the allowance would mean out of the income you would get the first $6,000. Anything after that would be determined with an agreed upon Profit sharing %.
Originally posted by Jon Holdman
Unfortunately, that leaves you cash flow negative in a big way. The loan on the first 90% amounts to $311 a month per unit. Plus vacancy and claimed expenses, and you're at $625 per month per unit. The IO payment on the last $160K is $47 a month, so now you're at $672 a month. Compared with $575 rents (which is what you're locked into at the start), you're losing $97 a month per unit.
Lets be a little more precise. You say vacancy is 8% out of 34 units. I guess that's three units currently vacant. So, lets ignore the vacancy allowance to do the math. That puts your total nut at $626 a month. On the 31 that are rented at $575, you're losing $51 a month. On the three vacant units, you're losing $626 a month. That makes your total monthy loss $5351. (I'm using more exact numbers in my spreadsheet, so there may be rounding errors.) If nothing changes for the first year, you would be right at $41,438 in total losses. The $38K in other income does make up for that, almost. But nothing left for capital. So any improvements are going to have to come from somewhere else.

I'll give a numbers break down at the end :D
Originally posted by JonHoldman
You're never going to be at 100% occupancy, and if you start raising rents, even by $25 a month, your vacancy is going to go up. Not as bad as if you try raising it $75 a month, but there will be a hit even at $25. And at $25 a year increase, you're going to be a LONG time getting up to market.

Yes your right vacancies will go up but it opens the door to get new tenants in the apartment at a rate closer to market. With the slight increase at the end of each lease term, there will be some that decide to leave but since it's not a large increase the vacancy rate will not skyrocket. This will give us a chance to increase the rental income, thus improving the value of the apartments.
Originally posted by JonHoldman
Lets consider the potential future value. From this discussion I get:
Gross scheduled rent: $234,600
Vacancy: $18,768
Claimed expenses: $109,344
Other income: $38,000
Calculated NOI: $144,488
Calculated cap rate 9%
Now 9%'s not a great cap rate, frankly. On a commercial property you make the difference between your cap rate and the interest rate on the financed portion plus the full cap rate on your down payment. Even that overstates income because you have to make principle payments, too, which eat into your cut. Yeah, you'll get them back when you sell, but while you're holding they're just as painful as any other expenses. So, if you were 90% financed at 8% and 10% financed at 12%, you're making 1% on 90% and -3% on 10%, which boils down to 0.6% of the $1.6M in return, and you have to cover the principle payments out of that $9600 return. Since you don't have the 20-30% of your own cash to put into this deal, this is going to suck money out of your pocket each and every month.
Nevertheless, lets use the 9% cap and the "to be" situation to see what its worth. Lets assume you get all units up to $750 and get the expenses in line with the 50% rule (they're well over now, 55% without including capital items). Now I get:
Gross scheduled rent: $750/unit/month
Gross scheduled rent: $206,000
"Expenses": $153,000 (50% rule, include vacancy and capital)
Other income: $38,000
NOI: $191,000
Cap rate: 9%
Implied price: 2,122,222
Debt service: $146,000
Cash flow: $45,000
Cash flow/unit/month $110

So, at that point its actually a decent deal. And, you could sell and pocket about $500K in profit. As a turnaround, and assuming you can really get the rents to $750 and you can get the expenses under control, this would work. I see some pain on the way to getting there, and a pretty significant risk of you getting into a bind and losing the property, since you're so highly leveraged and have nothing in reserves. Were I taking that top end piece, I'd want to give you enough additional cash to give you some working capital. That would hurt your cash flow position even worse, but at least you woudl be able to handle a hiccup when it came along. I'd also want to see a plan to get those rents up as quickly as possible, and to sell the place and let us both walk away with the cash. Or, if you want to keep it, a plan for you to refi and get my chuck of the backend back to me. An 80% refi would net you about $1.7 million, so you could potentially give me back $100K (plus my payoff), less the refi expenses ($50K?) plus the paydown you've made on the first and second (about $70K after five years).


So lets say based on the above numbers that in two years we sell the apartments, either to me as a new LLC or a new buyer. The second would be assumed based on the terms in the 2nd mortgage, and the first would be paid off.
Lets say that 3 apartments plus l an addition 2 because of rate increases become vacant each year. So in two years 10 apartments have new tenants at $750, the other 24 are now at $625.
Gross rent: 270,000
Expenses(50% rule) 135,000
Other income 38,000
NOI: 173,000
Cap rate 9%
Implied value: 1,922,222
Purchase price of 1,600,000
Sale price of 1,900,000
1st payoff 850,000
2nd balance at sale 633,543.53
Net gain 416,456.50
At the liquidation of the LLC 200,000 would go to the cash investor, $10,000 to me and the remaining 206456.50 would be divided based on the profit share %. (these are all just estimates of course)
I could also just buy the cash partner out at the end of two years when a refin would be required to cover 2 year interest only 1st mortgage.
Also I plan to include $10,000 from my net commission as part of the reserves. That plus the added $40,000 would give us a cash balance of 50,000 for reserves.
For some added numbers with a debt service of $133,783.68 there would be a monthly cash flow of about $1002. That is of course based on the currently stated income, expenses, and liabilities.
So with the numbers stated this is an idea of the profits based on a 50/50 profit split(this is just an example)
3% interest allowance plus 50% of remaining net income $9012 x 2 . At liquidation $103228.25
18024+103228.25=121252.25 (60.63% on investment)
Originally posted by JonHoldman
I guess the bottom line is I see some potential here, but you need more cash than you think.
Have you done a deal like this before? I get the impresion you have not.

Yes it has the potential to be a great deal, if I could get better financing it might be an excellent deal.
Yes Jon this would be my first deal like this, hopefully I've shown my understanding of the deal though :D

Property Manager · Berkley, Michigan


Did you end up closing on this deal? Jon, it is very interesting to read through your analysis.

Trevor


Real Estate Investor · Fort Collins, Colorado


Originally posted by Trevor Brunckhorst
Did you end up closing on this deal? Jon, it is very interesting to read through your analysis.

Trevor

I never did end up closing on this deal. Based on the advice that Jon had given above, I decided not to proceed with the deal. Since the seller was not willing to come down to a price that the current financials supported. I felt it was best to move on to the next deal.


Commercial Real Estate Broker · Canton, Georgia


Yep it was overpriced and anytime the seller holds the second they try to stick it to you on the sales price and the interest rate.

Then it comes down to how motivated are they???

If you have an offer of 1,600,000 with a second loan from the seller and 1,400,000 to 1,450,000 from a cash buyer if the seller has equity they will generally wipe their hands with it and sell to the cash buyer.

Over with much quicker and no worries about the second mortgage which they may or may not never see payment on.

You mentioned an LLC for buying the property.Astute sellers will vet the buyer and require a personal guarantee or have a recourse loan.

To give a non-secured second to a fledgling buyer with no recourse would be crazy.If the market dives or the rents stay flat many times the buyer will default as their is no value add they were anticipating.

Also if you raise rents you will have the cost per unit to recondition for leasing at the higher rents.


Real Estate Investor · waltham, Massachusetts


Hi guys, I am in the middle of writting a business to ask few investor to partner up with me on buying couple rental properties but I am struggling on the financial forecast. Jon I try to follow your method with not much success.
I am looking at 6-12 rental units that goes between 850k-1.5 million but I want to only purchase at 70% ARV . I am lookng for partners to bring the 20% down to buy the property. If I take the high number of the 20% is 300k. The rent is averaging between 1,050-1,750. to be safe I want to use the low end amount of the rent.
Where I am stuck is to come up with the projcted numbers and to show to the investors that their moneys are safe.
I assume that apr for the mortgage will be around 8%.
Gross rent:
Expenses(50% rule):
Other income:
NOI:
Implied value:
Appreciation:
Cash flow:
Vacancy:
Property management fee:
Investor profit after 2yrs when I can refinance:

Please pour some ideas.
Thanks


Private Money Lender · dallas, Texas


Funded Highlight

Rural Commercial Property
Funding for property improvements & equipment

FundingEdge is a correspondent & conduit for commercial real estate & business financing nationwide. We facilitate financing for A-D borrowers.

Programs include: Private Money, Conventional, Church & Agriculture (Ranch/Land) Finance.

Property Types: (Most Property Types Considered) Commercial Zoned, 5+ Unit Multifamily, Land, Ranches, Churches, etc.
FundingEdge is committed to making the financing process as simple as possible and strives to meet the needs of the business & real estate owner. Our commercial lending programs provide an alternative to traditional bank financing and we have the flexibility, experience and financial resources to close complex loans extremely quickly.

In addition to the Commercial Real Estate Financing we have developed a network to offer a variety of different types of secured Business Financing and Equipment Leasing.
FundingEdge can handle many different types of commercial properties, here are just a few: Apartments, Shopping Centers, Truck Stops, Office Buildings, Warehouses, Automobile Dealerships, Day Care Centers, Golf Courses, C-Stores, Owner Occupied Buildings, Manufacturing Facilities, Movie Theatres, Health Care Facilities, Hotels/Motels, Raw Land, Car Wash, Casino, Churches, Gas Stations, Industrial Parks, Malls, Medical Buildings, Mixed Use Properties, Retail Shopping Centers, Storage buildings, Strip Centers, Subdivisions, Industries Buildings, and much more……

Loan Types

Acquisition An acquisition loan is used to acquire property using the loan proceeds.

Acquisition & Development Loans to both acquire and develop real property to an improved state. Voucher control is normally set up to disperse loan proceeds with interest only paid on funds distributed. Loan to value is determined by the estimated improved value.

Asset Based Loans for any purpose whereby collateral is put up for security.

Bankruptcy and Foreclosures Financing on real property assets until institutional financing is available or sale of asset.

Bridge A Bridge Loan is a loan that is used for a short duration of time until permanent financing is put in place. Bridge loans are a perfect solution to a timely acquisition or business opportunity because they allow a purchaser or investor to act quickly. These loans can be used for acquisition, buy-outs, foreclosures, cash out and construction purposes.

Construction A Construction Loan is a loan used to construct a building or other improvements of real property, with the land and improvements as collateral for the loan. Construction reserve accounts are generally maintained to disburse the money as the construction progresses. Up to 100% cost of construction available depending on the improved value.

Debt Consolidation A debt consolidation loan can offer a lower monthly payment by consolidating outstanding debts into one single loan. If the average interest rate on various accounts is high, a debt consolidation loan at a low interest rate can save money. Even without a change in interest rates a simple single monthly payment may be reason enough to consider this option.

Development Loans to both acquire and develop real property to an improved state. Voucher control is normally set up to disperse loan proceeds with interest only paid on funds distributed. Loan to value is determined by the estimated improved value.

Rehab A rehab loan is any loan used to acquire an existing property for the purpose of repairing deficiencies and remodeling.

Refinancing Paying off an existing loan/debt from the proceeds of a new loan using the same collateral as security. Typically, the choice to refinance is made when interest rates or terms are better than the original loan.

SBA Loans SBA's Loan Program helps small businesses obtain needed credit by giving the government's guaranty on loans made by commercial lenders. Applicants must meet SBA's definition of small business.

Contact us with any questions or to discuss a scenario.




Sign up