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Forums » General Real Estate Investing » buy and hold / flipping or wholesaling

buy and hold / flipping or wholesaling Subscribe to buy and hold / flipping or wholesaling

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Real Estate Investor · Vallejo, California


On this thread I would like to know the opinions of professionals if a beginner or an investor with a few years experience wanting to make a living from real estate would be better off putting all of his energy into
- Buy and hold for rental income, or
- Wholesale properties, or
- Flip properties, or
a combo of each which would make someone probably less knowledgable in any one area.


Wholesaler · Amarillo, Texas


The knowledge required to profitably run a rental/wholesale/rehab business isn't really that exhaustive. Much of the knowledge for one carries over to another.

Wholesaling is all about finding and analyzing deals and building a buyers list. Rehabbing is all about finding and analyzing deals AND getting the work done efficiently. Rentals are about finding and analyzing deals, getting the work done efficiently, and dealing with tenant management.

I do all three. Wholesaling easily feeds into rehabbing or renting, because you can find great deals for yourself to rehab or rent while you wholesale. Rehabbing feeds into rentals because a make ready on a rental is a piece of cake for a good rehab contractor.

I would say there are multiple components to analyze to determine which single or combination is a good fit for you. Time, money, credit, and goals are the main components to look at.

Wholesaling and rehabbing are ways to generate capital, while rentals are a good way to invest capital. Wholesaling requires very little starting capital while rehabbing usually requires fix up costs and/or closing costs and down payment. Rentals normally are going to require at least a down payment and closing costs but not always, and they may need to be fixed up, also.

Wholesaling and rehabbing are time and skill intensive, while rentals are by nature passive and can be delegated out very easily.

If your credit is in the toilet, building an extensive rental portfolio may be out of the question right now. Wholesaling requires no credit and rehabbing can require little or no credit.

Your investment goals can range from you need to make $2,000 in the next month because you are broke and unemployed or you make six figures at your job and are looking for a safe place to make 15% on your money.

The answers to all these questions are what determine which is better for you.

If you have $25,000 and you invest in a rental property that will cash flow $10,000 a year then that's great, but you have to wait 2 and a half years to be able to invest in another. During that two and a half years you could have taken that $25,000 and done a rehab to retail and then another and then another until you were doing 1 a month. Let's say you profited roughly $15,000 per rehab and over 2 and a half years you amassed $250,000. At that point you could invest that money into 10 rentals at the same return and make $100,000 a year.

But if you are a doctor or an engineer making $200,000 at your J-O-B, it might be a waste of your time to do rehabs and you would rather just invest your 401K of $250,000 through a self-directed IRA straight into rental property.

Or maybe you are a complete poindexter and you wouldn't know the first thing about swinging a hammer and you still don't have any money or credit, you could start off with wholesaling. Over 2 and a half years you could amass let's say $100,000 and start investing some in rentals, and maybe you've developed some contacts that can take care of the remodeling for you so you start doing some rehabs, too.

Point being, there are multiple ways to make it in real estate, and it depends on your time, money, credit, and goals.

Let me KISS it:

Wholesaling requires time
Rehabbing requires time and money
Rentals require money

There are exceptions and caveats but that's the basics.


Wholesaler · Amarillo, Texas


Wow, that was a lot to say just to KISS it at the end, but I like that so much I'm going to say it again. :D

Wholesaling requires time
Rehabbing requires time and money
Rentals require money

There are exceptions to each but that's the basics.

Sorry Michael for repeating myself but I've been asked that question many times and just had that wonderful epiphany moment of simplification.


Real Estate Investor · Audubon, Pennsylvania


I'd say Ryan touched on just about everything in a GREAT post. He got my vote.


Real Estate Investor · Vallejo, California


Ryan,
Thank you for you great and detailed explanations, I couldn't have asked for a better answer,
I will use this knowledge, as I have only focused on buy and hold as rentals and I had to work hard to save for the down payments as you said, so I am thinking of trying some wholesaling while I accumulate enought for another rental to acquire.
I am reading a book that's interesting it's called: "Getting Started in Real Estate Day Trading" about wholesaling.


Real Estate Investor · Philadelphia, Pennsylvania


Michael-
How did you come across that book & who is the author? p.s. That's a Rotty, correct?


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Ryan touch almost everything. Just one addition. Many people are turned off by the thought that you need lots of money and to get qualified for a loan to have a rental. Yes, if you want high quality middle class rental you do, but if you're looking for good cash flow with minimum investment, there are tons of properties out there that you can start with. I think I mentioned in another thread that I recently bought a house for $7,500 which will need about anther $7,500 in rehab. When done, it will rent for $550-$600 a month. It is achievable. I wish I could start a program, "house for clunkers".
Sell your old car and get a house!!! Start making money instead of burning it... :wink:


Wholesaler · Amarillo, Texas


Eddie, though your example is absolutely achievable, I think you missed the point.

Let's say you cash flow $5,000 a year on that $15,000 rental (which is not realistic with taxes, insurance, maintenance, and vacancy factored in). That would be a 33% percent return on your money, which for most investors is a respectable ROI. You would still have to wait 3 YEARS to buy another one with the profits you generated.

Part of my point is that rentals require large amounts of capital invested to make large returns, so its better to focus on strategies that generate capital initially and THEN invest into rentals.

If you wanted to make $4,000 a month passively from rentals and all your rentals had an ROI of 40%, then it would require you to have $120,000 invested to reach that amount of income ($4,000 x 12 months divided by 40%). So unless you have $120,000 sitting around, then you will need to find ways to generate more capital faster, hence rehabbing or wholesaling.


Real Estate Investor · Philadelphia, Pennsylvania


I agree with Ryann 100%.... great post.... Build up your cash flow from flips then start using some of your profits to begin building your rental portfolio..... Flips and wholesale deals pay the bills and allow you to live a compfortable life while rentals can be accumilated over time and eventually used as a type of retirement plan... assuming you can only get financing for a few deals at a time, it would be wise to wholesale the excess deals you find when your hands are tied.... no garbage though, only properties you would be buying if you had the ability... just my 2 cents, good luck....!


Real Estate Investor · Vallejo, California


First to answer you Brandon, I came acrosse the book just browsing at Borders, I like there so I took it home.
Aslo yes a Rottie named Thea, she is 10 mth old, the love of my life.
Now for Eddie. While 15k might not seem like much for some people, and there are times when it's easy to save, I have put 40k plus in my last rental. And now even 5k seems like a lot.
Plus there is a learning curve. In the past 3 years I realize I have put about 80k in down payments for rentals and for what: not much at the moment. Will try to recoup my money when it's time and do it better after for better returns but still won't be enough to make a living off of it.
So while I love rentals and won't give up on it, I might try something that requires a little less cash at the moment.
Plus you told me about Birmingham and yes the houses are way cheaper over there compared to what I paid for mine, but it seems that most houses under 50k are bought cash by investors. How often could I buy a 50k house cash, not oftern enough.


Real Estate Investor · ten mile, Tennessee


michael, read up on wholesaling. You do not have to have cash as your last post indicated.

If you build a buyers list of those who are rehabbers (like you), you can wholesale the house/apt that you found to them by using OPM (other peoples money).

You see a good house and would like it, but cant handle it right now, call your list, show it to an interested buyer, get them under contract subject 2 your purchase, contact your hard money, transactional mony, or private money supplier. Use their money (cash) to do the purchase, sell to your buyer at a little more than the cost of using OPM plus a little for yourself and pocket that money for your next cash purchase.

Repeat and repeat until the cash pocketed is enough for next deal plus rehab and start all over again.


Rehabber · Fort Wayne, Indiana


I have been a buy and hold landlord.
Last month, I brought my 19yr old son to our REI meeting.

Larry Goins was the speaker. My son got excited about the possibility of wholesaling so I am trying to learn some new skills in that area to teach him.
Not soliciting here. However, Larry is offering his online bootcamp for $1. I am actually going through the informaiton. You view them online so you need to sit at your computer for a while but a lot of information for one dollar.

I don't think that he does anything out of the ordinary other than automate his process. Of course, I have not done any wholesaling.

I am struggling with how do you wholesale when properties (in our area) are available on the MLS (reo's) for under 10K. I think I understand in normal times that a wholesaler brings value by finding motivated sellers not listed on the MLS.

Anyway, I enjoyed Larry's presentation. He seemed genuine to me.

Still trying to learn the concept so I can teach my son those skills. It has been fun to watch him get excited and eat up the CD's that we have from his Larry's course. (not the online course I was talking about.)


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Originally posted by Ryan Webber
Eddie, though your example is absolutely achievable, I think you missed the point.

Let's say you cash flow $5,000 a year on that $15,000 rental (which is not realistic with taxes, insurance, maintenance, and vacancy factored in). That would be a 33% percent return on your money, which for most investors is a respectable ROI. You would still have to wait 3 YEARS to buy another one with the profits you generated.

Part of my point is that rentals require large amounts of capital invested to make large returns, so its better to focus on strategies that generate capital initially and THEN invest into rentals.

If you wanted to make $4,000 a month passively from rentals and all your rentals had an ROI of 40%, then it would require you to have $120,000 invested to reach that amount of income ($4,000 x 12 months divided by 40%). So unless you have $120,000 sitting around, then you will need to find ways to generate more capital faster, hence rehabbing or wholesaling.

Ryan, Point well taken, however, there is a flaw in you assumptions.
You did not include appreciation and you did not consider the uniqueness of the today's market.
True example: In October of 2008, I bought a HUD house for $15,000 in Forestdale, AL. (Near Birmingham.) I spent about $9,000 on rehab (New roof, AC unit, new pex plumbing, etc). Two weeks after rehab was done, the house was rented for $650 to a section 8 person. Today, only a year later, you won't be able to find a house of that size within five miles radius, that sells for less then $42,000. . (Retrospectively, I wish I bought more of those at the time). Since a year past, I'm now in the process of getting financing for that house at 50%LTV. That money will allow me to continue investing. I could have instead, sold the house and use the money as spring board to continue investing.
It seems that every one who is penniless, tries to jump on the wholesaling gravy train thinking that you can make something out of nothing. You can get burn very easily by buying the wrong property, the wrong bulk, etc. I'm not against wholesaling, flipping, etc. It's a different ball game that requires different set of tools, knowledge and personality which doesn't suit me.

Real Estate Investor · Ohio


You do not necessarily need any downpayment to buy rental properties. What you do need is a willingness to work hard to find deals that don't require a downpayment.

The key is to find DESPERATE SELLERS! These sellers will do WHATEVER IT TAKES TO END THE PAIN! Failed landlords are a good place to start. You can often buy these properties via owner financing, lease option, land contract, or other strategies that don't require money down.


Wholesaler · Amarillo, Texas


I plan to build a sub2 rental empire! lol


Real Estate Investor · Studio City, California


Originally posted by MikeOH
You do not necessarily need any downpayment to buy rental properties. What you do need is a willingness to work hard to find deals that don't require a downpayment.

The key is to find DESPERATE SELLERS! These sellers will do WHATEVER IT TAKES TO END THE PAIN! Failed landlords are a good place to start. You can often buy these properties via owner financing, lease option, land contract, or other strategies that don't require money down.

A word of caution. If you buy a property from a landlord who desperate to sell and you lack the experience and the knowledge to turn it into a successful venture, you bound to find yourself at the same predicament that the seller is in at the time of the purchase.

Rehabber · Santa Clarita, California


A word of caution. If you buy a property from a landlord who desperate to sell and you lack the experience and the knowledge to turn it into a successful venture, you bound to find yourself at the same predicament that the seller is in at the time of the purchase.
That is a great point!

Small_barnardenterprisesWill Barnard, Barnard Enterprises, Inc.
E-Mail: info@barnardenterprises.com
Website: http://www.barnardenterprises.com
info@barnardenterprises.com


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