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Forums » General Real Estate Investing » Questions on Subject to Financing Details

Questions on Subject to Financing Details Subscribe to Questions on Subject to Financing Details

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Some questions for people who've done deals subject to existing financing.

1. Is there any paperwork involved in taking over the owner's payments? Do you just send in payments with their account # ?

2. I heard that the owner needs to sign a form for you just to be able to get information from the lender about their loan. Do you have the owner sign this or any other forms?

3. Do you inform the lender? What do you say, and what is the usual response?

4. For loans originated in the 90s(these are the only ones that have equity) in California, are most loans assumable?

Thank you for your advice.


Real Estate Investor · Corpus Christi, Texas


Hi Francis, I have only done a couple of sub2s but I will attempt to answer these the best that I can.

1. Yes there is paperwork involved. I have done it via land trust in the past. There is also paperwork for the seller to acknowledge that you are buying sub2 and the loan can be accelerated at any time.

2. Yes, I have the seller sign a Third party authorization.

3. Haven't in the past, although I am reconsidering it for the future.

4. Loans aren't "assumable" after the late 80s because of a DOS clause in the mortgage contract.


Real Estate Investor · Springfield, Missouri


Hi, the due on sale clause actually came inot being as a standard risk tool in the late 60s/early 70s. VA and FHA loans use to be assumable, then moved to an assumability but requiring qualification. There might still be some assumable loans out there from the late 70s but the balances would be marginal and of little benefit, IMO. These loans still had the DOS clause with "carve outs" for assumption with qualification.

Usually when notice is given to a lender of your plan, they will say you can't do that. That is the answer I have heard a thousand times, and not one used the DOS to squash a deal. Can it happen, yes, but it is highly unlikely, especially now in this housing climate.

You should always have an Authorization To Release Personal Information specifically describing the mortgage and the servicer/lender. This authorization can also be in the form of a Specific Power of Attorney, to conduct the loan business of the borrower, which is a bullet proof way to obtain information and make payments.

I suggest you talk to a good real estate attorney in your area about local custom and use of the Sub-2 transactions. Study the information here on BP and make a list of questions (that we can answer for you as well) but get the local flavor from your attorney.

The DOS can become ineffective for the lender if notice is given of the transaction and they fail to act in a timely manner. After awhile, the transaction can be assumed to have been accepted, but only if notice is given. Good Luck, Bill


Real Estate Investor · Wheat Ridge, Colorado


You can do a closing at a title company just like a normal closing. The deed and the title policy will have an exception for the loan you're keeping in place.

Also a good idea to get a limited power of attorney from the seller with respect to the property. That way you can resolve any issues that come up in the future without having to involve the seller.

Totally agree with Bill that you should speak with an attorney (or three) from your area who's familiar with this sort of transaction.

Small_flying-phoenixJon Holdman, Flying Phoenix LLC


Real Estate Investor · Charleston, South Carolina


Be sure to have the Seller sign a isclosure statement that they understand that loan will remain in their name and that the bank has the right to call the loan due. I have the seller sign this Disclosure twice - once when we sign the contract and again a the closing.

Do NOT ask the bank for permissio - they will always say no. But you do not hide the transaction either. Close at a title company or attorney just like any other purchase. Prepare a letter from the borrower notifyin the bank that you will no be handling their loan and to please send all future correspondence to you; and get a new hazard insurance policy in your name listing the mortgage company as the mortgagee on the policy. Send the Decs Page to the lender to fulfill the insurance obligation.

Finally, ask the closing agent toget a "Statement of Account" from the lender as of the date of the closing to ensure the exact amount that you are taking responsibility for.

Let me know if you have any other questions.


Real Estate Investor · Springfield, Missouri


Well, when poor advice is given I'll be riding back in on my white horse!

Lou, you may have accomplished a few, even several of these over a period of time in this manner, but I did not say "ask" the lender, I said "provide notice" and a sub-2 should never be accomplished without doing so!

No lender will give permission if you ask. every loan officer or banking/servicing officer I ever talked to on the phone, or in person, said "no, you can't do that" and in most all of those cases (if that was indeed the proper method to use for the transaction) we did do them and gave notice. NONE of such transsactions were ever called under the due-on-sale-clause, none of them. Way over a thousand deals.

Granted, it's how notice is given and the timing of filings that might have a great deal to do with success.

Another common term for that statement of account is a "payoff letter" as of a certain date with per diem interest after that date to the end of the month. An accounting as of one date won't be accurate for settlement.

As to insurance, the seller can remain the insured as long as he is a co-insured with the buyer. This is not a hill for a climber to accomplish. The lender is named as a loss payee as required under the deed of trust or mortgage.

Having a letter of agreement in your file as to any loss payee under any policy of insurance is advised when you have additional insureds. The seller is not entitled to collect proceeds and apply amounts to the loan as the first mortagee is, funds must go to the rebuilding/repair of the collateral in such transactions. If, however, there is a total loss, such provisions can be agreed to.

Getting two disclosures is a good idea. I too always used two written disclosures and mentioned the liability of the seller several times until I knew that understood the situation. I also used a guarantee to step in and cover any loss with the contract being assigned to me in the event of default. That gave me the right to foreclose if necessary and resell the property.



Thank you guys for bringing up the issue of insurance. I hadn't thought of that at all.

My takeaway is that I should get a separate insurance policy with the lender named as the payee, even if the previous mortgage had insurance. Is that correct?

Financeexaminer, could you help me understand the following statement? Is the insurance in question the new insurance I get after I buy the property? And you're saying that I should put the seller's and my own name(the buyer) on there as co-insured, with the lender as the payee?

Originally posted by Financexaminer

As to insurance, the seller can remain the insured as long as he is a co-insured with the buyer. This is not a hill for a climber to accomplish. The lender is named as a loss payee as required under the deed of trust or mortgage.

Who signs the letter of agreement? Me and the seller?

Originally posted by Financexaminer

Having a letter of agreement in your file as to any loss payee under any policy of insurance is advised when you have additional insureds. The seller is not entitled to collect proceeds and apply amounts to the loan as the first mortagee is, funds must go to the rebuilding/repair of the collateral in such transactions. If, however, there is a total loss, such provisions can be agreed to.

The guarantee completely lost me :)
Who signs the guarantee, and what does it say?
I'm assuming that the loan is in the seller's name, and I'm paying it. So if I stop paying and it defaults, I get to foreclose?

Originally posted by Financexaminer

I also used a guarantee to step in and cover any loss with the contract being assigned to me in the event of default. That gave me the right to foreclose if necessary and resell the property.


As always, thanks for your help.

Real Estate Investor · Springfield, Missouri


OK, forget the guarantee part, sorry to mudy the waters, that is something I did, you don't need to go there. It would take a book to explain.

You and the seller go on the insurances as co-insureds, as if both of you owned the property, because in a way, both of you do.

The letter of agreement is between you and the seller and both sign an agreement stating what will be paid in the event a tornado comes through and the insurance company writes a big check. The lender will be on that check as a loss payee, but will endorse the funds for repairs 90% of the time. So, who get the money? The guy in the house, the buyer, because he's paying the premiums first of all, secobdly he needs the repairs done to be made whole and to continue with the purchase agreement, so you as the seller need to sign the check over to those making repairs, etc. If however, the buyer is in default, you might elect to pay the bank off and pay yourself off and let the buyer have what's left, if anything.



Why not just get the insurance in my own name only? Wouldn't that make everything easier to deal with?

Does the fact that there's a mortgage with someone else's name on the house raise issues?


Real Estate Investor · Springfield, Missouri


Gee, if you're getting valued advice where are the votes! LOL

In insurance contracts, for them to be valid, the insured must have an insurable interest, and that interest needs to be at least as much if not more than the amounts insured or the risk transferred to the insurance company.
If you sell a property and you have a 60K liability on the note and 5K amount due you, your insurable interest is 65K. However, you no longer have an interest in the 30K equity (for example) since you sold the property. Well, whos equity is it? That goes to the buyer who also has an insurable interest in the property, not only from the sale contract, but as a residence (remeber that loss arising from temp living expenses is part of a homeowner's policy as well as other "homeowner" risks of loss). What about any repairs and improvements made by the buyer, if any. So the buyer has an insurable interest in the property. This is true even in a Contract For Deed where title is not assigned until all amounts have been fully paid.

So, yes, it can cause problems. After all, the buyer is paying the premium (right?) so he should be entitled to the other coverages that are provided under such a policy, like contents coverage, moving expenses, loss of currency, credit card coverage, liability coverage and one of my favorites, liability coverage for small boats! If you are not in the property, you can't make a claim on any of these issues. Furthermore, if it is found that you were not in the house when it burned down, the insurance company can withhold the additional premiums for what should have been paid under a landlord policy from loss proceeds, since you insured it improperly....and then some just might return only the premiums and say you fradulently insured the premises! So, yes it can cause problems. Both insureds do not need to reside in the property, just one and you can be a co-insured so long as you have an insurable interest. Back to the grind....lol



lol oh that's what the button is for?

Here you go good sir, 1 vote.


Foreclosure Specialist · jonesboro, ga


how do you mitigate the risk of a due on sale clause from the bank?


Real Estate Investor · Bakersfield, California


Victor. You mitigate the risk by buying it at the correct value and terms.

Life is full of risk. Sub2 certainly has its share however they're more hype than reality.

As for Insurance, I never leave the insurance in play or have the borrower as additional insured.

The only time they would be mentioned on the policy is if they sold sub2 with a seller carryback. Otherwise they aren't in the picture. Has a lender ever called one of my sub2 purchases due NO. And I have done my fair share of them.

I give the lender notification 4 ways.

1) Beneficiary Statement requesting a sale payoff by the closing company. (A sale payoff is different than a refinance payoff)

2) Attach insurance to the property in "my" name.

3) Make my mortgage payments with my name on the check.

4) Record the Deed which gives Constructive Notice.

As for disclosure here is my latest disclosure to the seller.

Buyer have entered in to a certain Purchase and Sales Agreement date herewith, the parties fully understand, acknowledge and agree as follows:
1. Seller and Buyer are fully aware that the Mortgage(s)/Deeds of Trust securing the property Described in Section I contain(s) provisions prohibiting the transfer of any interest in the property without satisfying the principal balance remaining on the underlying Loan(s) and/or obtaining the Lender's prior written consent (i.e., a "Due-on-Sale" Clause), and that this transaction may violate said Mortgage(s).
2. Seller specifically understands that the Loan Payment(s) will be paid on a monthly basis by Buyer, and that the Loan(s) will NOT be assumed or paid off completely at Closing, and that the Loan(s) and Loan Payments will remain in Seller's name and may continue to appear on Seller's credit report.
3. Seller and Buyer execute this disclosure form after having had the opportunity to seek legal counsel as to the legal and financial implications of the Due-on-Sale Clause included in the Mortgage(s)/Deed(s) of Trust. The parties agree and understand that if said Due on Sale Clause is enforced by the Holder(s) of said Mortgage(s)/Deed(s) of Trust, the entire balance then due under said Mortgage(s) must be paid in full. In this event, Seller understands that if the Mortgage(s) is/are not paid in full, the Lender can file a Notice of Default on the property and report such to the credit bureaus, affecting the Seller's Credit Report. Buyer understands that in the event that the underlying debt is not paid in full, the Lender holding the Deed(s) of Trust may foreclose the property, which will extinguish Buyer's interest in the property.
4. In the event there is an escrow account for taxes, insurance, waste fees, association fees, or any other impounds or escrow, said funds shall be transferred to Buyer without adjustment. The current loan balance and prepayment penalty shall be deducted from sale proceeds and if there is an escrow shortage same shall be charged to Seller at closing.
5. The Borrower/Seller shall indemnify, defend and hold harmless the buyer and all persons or assigns, regardless of responsibility, from all costs, expenses, suits, liabilities, damages, attorney fees and claims of every type, including but not limited to those arising out of injury to any person, or damage to any real or personal property to any person, including the borrower and said financial institution, for; (i) any items resulting from the buyer buying the property, (ii) information furnished by the borrower or (iii) those items relating to the financial information, or (iv) the ability or inability to pay for or continue to support the debt of which the buyer is agreeing to.

In the event that there are insured damages on the property prior to my purchase I receive the following from the seller.

Assignment of Beneficial Interest of Insurance Proceeds

Assignment of Beneficial Interest of Insurance Proceeds to YOUR COMPANY OR YOU, YOUR ADDRESS

I, SELLER, as beneficiary and claimant to the insurance policy # POLICY NUMBER with INSURANCE COMPANY: do hereby authorize and direct INSURANCE COMPANY to pay to YOUR COMPANY OR YOU, YOUR ADDRESS the total sum of All Proceeds of the aforementioned policy(ies).

I understand, the proceeds I have authorized to be paid to the above party will be in lieu of payment to me, as specified in the above policy or policies. This payment which will be paid to someone other than myself will satisfy the policy requirements for payment of benefits to me in full, or to the extent of the total proceeds the authorized amount represents, if it is not for the full amount of available proceeds.

Signed _______________________________________________,
(Beneficiary - Claimant - Print Name)

Date_____________________________

STATE OF CALIFORNIA
COUNTY OF ________________________
On before me, ______________________________________, personally appeared ______________________________________________________,
who proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the person(s) whose name(s) is/are subscribed to the within instrument and acknowledged to me that he/she/they executed the same in his/her/their authorized capacity(ies), and that by his/her/their signature(s) on the instrument the person(s), or the entity upon behalf of which the person(s) acted, executed the instrument.

I certify under the PENALTY OF PERJURY under the laws of the State of California that the foregoing paragraph is true and correct.
WITNESS my hand and official seal.
_____________________________________________ (Notary seal)
Signature

Small_ylmMichael Quarles, Yellow Letter Mail
E-Mail: michael@YellowLetterMail.com
Telephone: 888-YOUR-MAIL
Website: http://www.YellowLetterMail.com
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