5/25/12 IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: MAJOR BP Update Next Week!

Hide this

Jump to Category View All

Click a category below to view different forum categories.

BiggerPockets

General Info

Rss10 BiggerPockets Q&A, Site Questions, & Announcements

1001 topics, 8196 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:10PM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Exclusive PRO Area

12 topics, 81 posts — Last Post 03/23/12, 03:25PM

Rss10 New Member Introductions

4596 topics, 26506 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 04:49AM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Success Stories

152 topics, 1813 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:22AM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Real Estate Investing Summit

87 topics, 1549 posts — Last Post 05/07/12, 02:13PM

General Real Estate

General Real Estate

Rss10 Buying Real Estate

1318 topics, 10387 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 02:33PM

Rss10 Selling Real Estate

320 topics, 2544 posts — Last Post 05/08/12, 07:34PM

Rss10 Renters

202 topics, 1618 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 11:34AM

Rss10 Get Foreclosure Help - Help Stop Foreclosure Forum

221 topics, 1747 posts — Last Post 05/18/12, 08:38PM

Rss10 Home Owner Association (HOA) Issues & Problems Forum

111 topics, 719 posts — Last Post 05/08/12, 06:37AM

Rss10 Do it Yourself

328 topics, 2841 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 09:10AM

Reviews & Feedback

Rss10 Real Estate Deal Analysis and Advice

1625 topics, 12975 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 05:44PM

Rss10 Real Estate Guru, Book & Course Reviews and Discussions

700 topics, 7128 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 02:16PM

Rss10 Ask About A Real Estate Company

330 topics, 4781 posts — Last Post 05/10/12, 10:31PM

Real Estate Investing

Real Estate Strategies

Rss10 Wholesaling

2588 topics, 19948 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:14PM

Rss10 Rehabbing and House Flipping

1622 topics, 14297 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:24PM

Rss10 Real Estate Development

202 topics, 1123 posts — Last Post 05/19/12, 07:40AM

Rss10 Pre-Construction & New Home Construction

90 topics, 600 posts — Last Post 05/05/12, 11:02AM

Rss10 Innovative Strategies

377 topics, 2935 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 02:00PM

Rss10 Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, & Cash Flows Discussion

477 topics, 2850 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 02:54PM

Rss10 Rent to Own a.k.a. Lease Purchase, Lease Options

355 topics, 2229 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:12PM

Rss10 1031 Exchanges

62 topics, 342 posts — Last Post 04/29/12, 08:09PM

Foreclosure Investing

Rss10 General Foreclosure & Pre-Foreclosure Forums

1156 topics, 7084 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 06:30PM

Rss10 HUD, VA, and Tax Sales

216 topics, 1327 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 01:59PM

Rss10 REOs

948 topics, 7884 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 05:04PM

Rss10 Short Sales

1254 topics, 10440 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 01:58PM

Landlord & Tenant Forums

Rss10 Rental Property Questions & Landlording Issues

3183 topics, 28801 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 04:53PM

Rss10 Land & Farm Investing

118 topics, 736 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 01:27PM

Rss10 Mobile Homes & Mobile Home Park Investing

416 topics, 3071 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 05:40PM

Real Estate Dealmaking

Rss10 Make Deals, Find Partners, Mentors & BirdDogs, etc.

3703 topics, 13610 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 01:07PM

Rss10 Promote Your Real Estate Buyer's List

160 topics, 689 posts — Last Post 05/02/12, 05:54AM

Rss10 Property Wanted

635 topics, 3041 posts — Last Post 05/19/12, 07:44AM

Rss10 Seeking Financing, Money, or Loans

1245 topics, 7437 posts — Last Post 05/21/12, 10:41AM

Rss10 Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, & Cash Flows Dealmaking

277 topics, 1909 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 06:40PM

Rss10 Bulk REO Discussion and REO Dealmaking

843 topics, 5906 posts — Last Post 02/02/12, 04:20PM

Investor Basics

Rss10 Starting Out

4197 topics, 30898 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 03:17PM

Rss10 Investor Psychology

298 topics, 4486 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 09:01PM

Rss10 General Real Estate Investing

3145 topics, 21840 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:22PM

Rss10 Real Estate Investor Marketing

910 topics, 7482 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:26AM

Commercial Real Estate

Rss10 Commercial Real Estate Investing Forum

743 topics, 3995 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 08:46AM

Rss10 Multi-Family and Apartment Investing

219 topics, 2013 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 11:11AM

Rss10 Office Investing

3 topics, 36 posts — Last Post 11/15/11, 02:42PM

Rss10 Industrial Property Investing

4 topics, 14 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 06:44AM

Rss10 Retail Property Investing

10 topics, 77 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:15AM

Rss10 CRE Financing and Lending

26 topics, 247 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 05:27AM

Rss10 CRE Syndication and Fundraising

26 topics, 236 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 04:52PM

Rss10 CRE Property Management & Leasing

2 topics, 12 posts — Last Post 05/18/12, 12:34PM

The Business of Real Estate

Real Estate Technology and the Internet

Rss10 Technology, Social Media, Real Estate & The Web

269 topics, 2277 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 07:40AM

Rss10 Real Estate Blogs & Blogging

24 topics, 293 posts — Last Post 05/16/12, 09:29PM

Business Basics

Rss10 Goals, Business Plans & Entities

428 topics, 4273 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 09:08PM

Real Estate Finance & Legal

Financial, Tax, and Legal

Rss10 Tax, Legal Issues, Contracts, Self-Directed IRA

1349 topics, 9465 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 07:35AM

Rss10 Credit & Credit Repair

182 topics, 1484 posts — Last Post 05/22/12, 06:06PM

Rss10 Property Insurance

135 topics, 850 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:36PM

Rss10 Bankruptcy

21 topics, 113 posts — Last Post 05/21/12, 08:25PM

Loans, Mortgages, Credit Lines

Rss10 Private & Conventional Lending Discussion

1346 topics, 8087 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 02:20PM

Rss10 Creative Real Estate Financing

659 topics, 4285 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 10:58AM

Real Estate Professionals

Real Estate Professionals

Rss10 Real Estate Agents

639 topics, 3562 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 07:47PM

Rss10 Bankers, Lenders, and Mortgage Brokers

355 topics, 1268 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 01:18AM

Rss10 Contractors

122 topics, 667 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 04:37PM

Local Real Estate

International Real Estate

Local Real Estate

Rss10 Local Real Estate Networking

612 topics, 3434 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 02:08PM

Rss10 Americans & International Real Estate

139 topics, 505 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 02:00PM

Rss10 Foreigners Buying in the USA

56 topics, 288 posts — Last Post 05/02/12, 07:54PM

Rss10 Canadian Real Estate

26 topics, 130 posts — Last Post 03/19/12, 05:58PM

Marketplace

Real Estate Marketplace

Rss10 Mortgages & Lending

392 topics, 1757 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 03:10AM

Rss10 Residential Property, Land, & Farms For Sale

760 topics, 1463 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 06:58PM

Rss10 Real Estate Events & Happenings

118 topics, 505 posts — Last Post 05/07/12, 10:07PM

Rss10 Commercial Properties for Sale or Lease

224 topics, 671 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:42AM

Rss10 Domains & Website Reviews

48 topics, 391 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 07:07AM

Rss10 Classifieds - Promote your Website, Newsletter, or Product

595 topics, 2801 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 06:42PM

Off-Topic

Off Topic

Rss10 Off-Topic

1866 topics, 19997 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:12AM

Rss10 Housing News & Real Estate Market

666 topics, 6615 posts — Last Post 05/09/12, 03:11PM

BiggerPockets Resources

Forums » Creative Real Estate Financing » Mechanics of seller financing

Mechanics of seller financing Subscribe to Mechanics of seller financing

9 posts by 6 users

Signup

Real Estate Investor · Hillsboro, Oregon


I'm about to make an offer on a multiple-property deal with seller financing and I have some questions. I assume if the deal gets accepted, I'll need to get a real estate lawyer but in the mean time, I'm thinking of things I want to include in the terms of my offer. Besides the usual down payment, amortization period, and interest rate, here are some things I've thought of:

- No prepayment penalty
- Seller will report interest as taxable income and issue the appropriate tax forms
- I may try to sneak in no due on sale clause
- Fixed interest rate

What am I missing?

How will I track what's been paid to principle and interest? Is there a software I can buy, or do I simply use Excel's payment functions, and then get the seller to sign off on a statement each year (I know they should be the ones sending me a statement but they're very unsophisticated).

We would probably close on the 44 separate properties in 4 batches of 11 properties. What if I want to sell just 1 out of 11 in a batch?

Thanks!


Real Estate Investor · Springfield, Missouri


You should really investigate a servicing company for the adminstration of the contracts, this will be a portfolio and the cost will be well worth it. It will also impress the seller as they don't need to pay an accountant to do the filings! There are many advanatges for you as the buyer as well, especially for credit in the event you want to payoff properties or refinance them. If your taxes are all to the same county and insured by the same company the costs should be about 12 bucks a property, guessing. As a borrower, there are many issues that puts you on the wrong side to admisinster the loans
that will come about considering the age of the note holder. It's not an issue as to your ability to do it, it's keeping things at arm's length and the hassel that arises since borrowers don't service their own loans.

The due on sale clause is in the deed of trust or security agreement, not the note. You could specifically allow a loan assumption with your guarantee for example. Think about future options and keep them open. This sets the stage for creative financing.

I suggest you take a close look at the security agreement.

Did you find out what the seller's needs were?
You will get a better deal if you do. Longer term? Better rate? Assignment options? Just to mention a few issues.

You don't need to offer terms yet, agree on a price and the fact that financing will be provided, then work on agreeable terms with them making them the last issue to the agreement. IMO


SFR Investor · Long Beach, California


You may want to see if you can go interest only for the first few years with the loan recasting to fully amortized for the remainder of the term after that. That can help you control costs as you are initially buying these and stabilizing them. In addition, you'll want a blanket loan that allows you to sell without having to re characterize the loan. That is, your P/I payment would stay the same even if you pay off one or two of the properties. It can get expensive to have a lawyer redraft the loan every time you spin something off and then re record it against the remaining titles.

Since you will be buying these in separate transactions you'll most likely have four different loans. You can get an amortization schedule online to see how much P/I you've paid over the course of the year but it's still the seller's legal responsibility to provide you with a 1098 if you are paying them a mortgage.


Real Estate Investor · Wheat Ridge, Colorado


I assume you have other loans on your existing properties. Find one that was done with a bank and look through that paperwork.

Not sure the seller/lender is required to give you a interest statement. You can just track this yourself and report it to the IRS. This would be a good topic to discuss with your CPA. More generally, I'd have a discussion with your CPA about this transaction before you get rolling. I would think you would at least need the SSN of the seller (or, EIN if its an entity.)

If you have blanket loans that cover multiple properties, you'll want a "partial release" clause that allows you to pay off a certain portion of the loan if you sell one. The seller would then have to file a "lien release" for that specific property. I think I would do this in a very simple way. Specifically, you know what value each one has right now. So, you can assign each property a percentage of the total loan. At any time in the future, those percentages still apply to the loan balance and to the payment. If you sell any property, you must pay the lender that percentage of the outstanding balance. The payment is also reduced by that percentage.

Small_flying-phoenixJon Holdman, Flying Phoenix LLC


Real Estate Investor · Austin, Texas


Here are some other items:

1. Recourse or non-recourse?
2. Release clauses (very important IMO)
3. Terms for release clauses and who gets paid when. This is customarily done to ensure the lender's security interest stays at least as good as it was at the outset. So if you have 95% LTV you will need to pay the loan down to maintain that LTV when you sell one of the batch

I would also advise you to get a servicing company involved. Keeping track of everything on your own is going to be a hassle....especially if you sell some properties with the release clauses. TValue is something worth looking at if you are not going to use a servicing company.

I wouldn't muddy the waters with notes that get recast unless you need to. It sounds like the seller may get confused by this. A confused mind does nothing ;-)

Small_bullseye_capital_logoBryan Hancock, Bullseye Capital Real Property Opportunity Fund
E-Mail: b.hancock@bullseyecap.com
Telephone: 1-800-577-0401
Website: http://www.bullseyecapfund.com
I help busy people profit from real estate


Wholesaler · Valley City, Ohio


Wow! Way to go! I hope this is not your first transaction. Goin from 0 to 44 properties would be a big step. Anyhow, I would differently have an attorney draw up the papers. Angelo Russo is here on bigger pockets. He would be a great guy to reach out to for help. He is a real estate attorney, that owns a title company, and can escrow and service all of the payments. ( This is not a promotion, you may not even be able to use him because he is an Ohio lawyer, but he would be a wealth of info).
I also see you want to sneak in a no due on sale clause. Do they own the properties free and clear? If there is an underlying mortgage in place, their bank can call their note due. This is usually flagged in the insurance department of the bank, so I have heard not to take them off of the insurance, just add you as additional insured.
You may even want to consider a lease with options. You can put far more aggressive pay downs using options, plus it will not trigger a due on sale and if you decide running 44 houses is not for you, it is a lot easier to unwind. Oh, and if you wanna sell the properties, you can sell your option. Good luck!! :mrgreen:

Small_logo_largeRob Gillespie, Rob The House Guy, LLC
E-Mail: rob@robthehouseguy.com
Telephone: 330-800-9043
Website: http://AskTheHouseGuy.com
Rob@RobTheHouseGuy.com 330 800 9043 AskTheHouseGuy.com RobTheHouseGuy.com


Real Estate Investor · Hillsboro, Oregon


Originally posted by RobTheHouseGuy1
Wow! Way to go! I hope this is not your first transaction. Goin from 0 to 44 properties would be a big step. Anyhow, I would differently have an attorney draw up the papers. Angelo Russo is here on bigger pockets. He would be a great guy to reach out to for help. He is a real estate attorney, that owns a title company, and can escrow and service all of the payments. ( This is not a promotion, you may not even be able to use him because he is an Ohio lawyer, but he would be a wealth of info).
I also see you want to sneak in a no due on sale clause. Do they own the properties free and clear? If there is an underlying mortgage in place, their bank can call their note due. This is usually flagged in the insurance department of the bank, so I have heard not to take them off of the insurance, just add you as additional insured.
You may even want to consider a lease with options. You can put far more aggressive pay downs using options, plus it will not trigger a due on sale and if you decide running 44 houses is not for you, it is a lot easier to unwind. Oh, and if you wanna sell the properties, you can sell your option. Good luck!! :mrgreen:

I have 23 units already so it would be a huge increase but better than going from 0.

These properties are all paid off so at least that won't be an issue.

The main reason I want no due on sale clause is because I like this 5% interest rate so much, I'd like to have the option to invest funds received from a sale in other properties, but also the option to pay down the debt as well. Plus, it would complicate things to pay part of the debt off. I'm not sure how the sellers feel about this.

Thanks for the referral to Angelo Russo. I'll contact him and go from there.

I'd like to find a good informative book to educate myself on the subject, even though a lawyer will draw up the paperwork. Does anyone have any recommendations?


Real Estate Investor · Austin, Texas


Even if you get a provision where there is no due-on-sale clause you still need to think through the release clauses IN CASE the buyer wants to get their own, third party financing.

I would recommend trying to find a local attorney. See if someone at your local REIA or investment club can recommend someone.

Small_bullseye_capital_logoBryan Hancock, Bullseye Capital Real Property Opportunity Fund
E-Mail: b.hancock@bullseyecap.com
Telephone: 1-800-577-0401
Website: http://www.bullseyecapfund.com
I help busy people profit from real estate


Real Estate Investor · Springfield, Missouri


Keep in mind what state you are in and that Angelo may not be licensened there, however he could give some ideas on your note. But, I would not be paying anyone other than YOUR attorney. Real estate is local! Concepts can be adapted, specific terms should meet what is customary in your area. Customizing a note or deed of trust needs some local input.

There is no benefit to a blanket loan, especially for the private lender if they knew more about their options. You still need to file the lien on each property, so you don't really save anything on filing fees or closing costs.

Selling with a BL will mean a partial release being filed, does your lender know how to do that or will they be going to an attrorney evertime you want to do something? The PR is no big deal, but if an error is made, I have seen the wrong property released, the amount required being more than what it might sell for and insurance claim problems. Each of these aspects needs to be individually addressed with a BL. You don't have these issues with one note on one property.

You will have a high LTV as I understand the deal. As Jon pointed out, in a BL one property may represent 30% of the balance due. If you had staggered the loans as I had suggested, you could refi on property, say for improments being necessary due to damage from a fire (it happens). That 30% of the outstand balance may not be met to release a property when the LTV of the new loan is assessed on that one property. There are issues with releases.

The notes and security agreements are identical with the exception of the amount, payment required and the legal description of the collateral.

You will also be placing several properties at risk under events of default that can arise, putting more eggs in one basket. No one plans to default, but it happens. How would this be addressed if you were every to sell one property with a sub-2 or installment transaction?

One other point, a BL will be likely construed as a commercial loan. That's fine for you, but what about any future buyer if you did sell with an installment? Now you are blending two different types of loans and rules to be addressed. Having an individual residential loan could be assumed and easily managed.

And, again, seller financed transactions are considered to be financing the transaction, they are not cash advance loans and therefore are more often, except under certain condiotions, without recourse. Making it as a commercial loan transaction under a BL could change this aspect under your state laws, so any deficiencies are simply added to other amounts owing and deficiencies may be sought.

Don't let the number of properties cloud the issue or complicate the overall scheme of the objective and options available down the road. Keep it simple..




Sign up