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Forums » Tax, Legal Issues, Contracts, Self-Directed IRA » LLC's - how much risk is there?

LLC's - how much risk is there? Subscribe to LLC's - how much risk is there?

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Real Estate Investor · Dallas, Texas


I was just reading on another thread about the old debate of how many LLC's do you need? Just one? One per property? Somewhere in between? The idea is to segregate silos of liability exposure. That's fine, I don't know that we'll ever see consensus on this.

The debate brings other questions; how much risk is there? My specific questions are: have you ever lost a property(s) due to liability exposure? What were the circumstances? What was the entity and insurance set up? Did you lose other properties in the same entity?

I assume loss of properties and entities are rare, so if you have direct knowledge of such losses happening to other investors, please share their answers.

Jon K., VentureNet
E-Mail: jklaus@vnetinc.com
Telephone: 214-929-6545
Website: http://www.caddostar.com
Traveling to Dallas? Check out our ranch cabin getaway. www.caddostar.com


Rehabber · Santa Clarita, California


Great question Jon and follow up from that previous thread mentioned.

Any competant attorney and tax advisor would not recommend using a seperate entity for each RE purchase, but would recommend the total equity risk per entity. Some may argue that all they want, but it is true.

As to loss - I have not (knock on wood) and do not know of any investor who lossed a property because the award was in excess of any insurance. That said, there are several areas to talk about here. One is: An entity only provides "inside" liability protection for the asset, nothing more, so if you drive drunk and run over someone, your entity will not protect you nor will it be rotected from the law suit against you.
You may also lose protection if you act in a negligent manner or operate your entity in such a manner which allows the corporate veil to be pierced.

To me, the main issue of an entity is not liability protection, but a tax shelter or tax planning strategy.

Small_barnardenterprisesWill Barnard, Barnard Enterprises, Inc.
E-Mail: info@barnardenterprises.com
Website: http://www.barnardenterprises.com
info@barnardenterprises.com


SFR Investor · Orange County, California


Originally posted by Jon Klaus
I was just reading on another thread about the old debate of how many LLC's do you need? Just one? One per property? Somewhere in between?

My attorney recommends about $250k in equity per LLC, not necessarily one property per LLC. In California, each entity costs a minimum of $800/year which takes a good bite out of cash-flow, so having a large collection of entities in this state simply doesn't make sense. Plus you have the added headaches of separate bank accounts, filing documents, etc.

Series-LLC's sound like a good idea, but California doesn't allow these formations yet, although they recognize those formed in other states.


Real Estate Attorney · Republic, Missouri


Costs: it really varies by State. Mitch, CA is almost the most expensive. CA has a LLC tax of 800 per year unless your equity exceeds 250,000 then the tax goes up pro-rata. (i would guess that is why your attorney advises you to stay at 250,000 equity)

MO 50 bucks and an annual report (45 dollars) no limit on size.

NV 125 bucks and annual report (125 dollars) no limits on size

NY has a tax for LLC's that desire partnership taxation based on number of members.. can go up to thousands p/yr

....................and so on.

As far as protecting personal assets or assets in one LLC from liabilities in another LLC..............not too likely. It can be done, but arguments of alter ego for "same owner' LLC's with same busines purpose and arguments of piercing the veil are not difficult arguements to make and win. There are a host of factors.

LLC (or business entities) are necessary for multiple owners/partners. They are also very good for structure and organization.


Real Estate Investor · Dallas, Texas


Steve, any of your clients ever lost a property due to liability?

Jon K., VentureNet
E-Mail: jklaus@vnetinc.com
Telephone: 214-929-6545
Website: http://www.caddostar.com
Traveling to Dallas? Check out our ranch cabin getaway. www.caddostar.com


Real Estate Attorney · Republic, Missouri


No. Have never seen it.

First layer of protection is your insurance. If it is clearly not enough, they can pursue you personally, your fellow shareholders or any other companies you own. I have seen these cases, but they are very difficult to win.

I've seen lenders shoot right through the entities (llc owners) to the guarantors and take the real estate and other assets of the guarantor for default. But those are not general liability cases.


Real Estate Investor · Springfield, Missouri


In my area, there really was not and is not alot of slip'n falls in the first place, but they do and even ligitametly occur. I have been threaten maybe a dozen times, for various issues, but never had a tenant file, not even a counter claim.

Service providers are another issue not brought up much here. The guy that comes in and says he will fix a window and breaks the trim, scars the wall, scuffs up the floor and knocks down the mail box with his ladder. Then, when you run him off, he gets ticked and wants to file suit against you......no big deal!

It really depends on what you do and how you conduct your business. I have never really had any large issue arising from property ownership. Lending liability is ten times what landlord liability could be. I never lost a dime lending, not that some didn't try, and rarely did I need an attorney (not that I'm Clarence Darrow, but you learn to compromise).

I can't say that my LLCs ever swayed anyone from picking a fight.

As a Creditors' Representative in Bankruptcy Court, I have seen properties go to a forced sale many times, even made claims to equities, but the fact that they were held in a one person or family LLC made no difference as the company itself could be liquidated.

I know one of the slickest (if that's what you'd call him) guys around, a surveyor/engineer and business owner who held several properties. Real messy law suit went on for years. He couldn't ever find the Stock Certificate to "his" corporation and claimed it was owned by other investors he had never met, didn't even know all of them, his attorney didn't know either. After the dust settled, a couple years later, the assets were sold and (rolled over) to another company.

Another guy, a builder was sued more often than David Letterman tells a joke. He used the same tactic I did, one LLC for a certain function with it owing money to another LLC. Any roof problems stayed in the roof company, any foundation problem went to the foundation and flat works company, but they were all in debt. While he always made good on any actual loss, not one really got anything out of him.

I think the asset protection schemes sold to people of modest means are done so by the aattorneys who draft them, usually unnecessary. It's the same ploy used by insurance agenst selling liability coverage.....oh look, another multi-million dollar corporate loss froma product liability suit or mistreatment of employees, hiring practices....no one ever stops and asks, do I do that kind of thing or do I have people working for me where that could happen????? Probably not.

I have insurance, if I go hunting with Cheney, if he shoots me or I shoot him, I'm covered, I have liability coverage, same with my vehicles, properties and business interests. I don't really have to rely on defending my actions based on how my companies are structured.


Real Estate Investor · Austin, Texas


$250k seems like a random number without the state taxation issues as Steve described. Your insurance may not cover everything that the LLC could potentially protect against so you better read and understand your policy well if you are keeping a ton of assets in one LLC.

I completely hate dealing with all of the overhead for a new entity....a separate bank account, tax return, set of books, etc. Ugh!

Small_bullseye_capital_logoBryan Hancock, Bullseye Capital Real Property Opportunity Fund
E-Mail: b.hancock@bullseyecap.com
Telephone: 1-800-577-0401
Website: http://www.bullseyecapfund.com
I help busy people profit from real estate


Rehabber · Santa Clarita, California


I agree with Byan, too many entities poses an accounting nightmare!

Small_barnardenterprisesWill Barnard, Barnard Enterprises, Inc.
E-Mail: info@barnardenterprises.com
Website: http://www.barnardenterprises.com
info@barnardenterprises.com


Real Estate Investor · Ocean Springs, Mississippi


I think it depends on what you're comfortable with. However, If you only have $5-10k in equity on a property, I wouldn't think it would be worth the time and effort to set up a new entity for each property.

Just keep in mind for each entity you've got a new set of books, another k1 to issue, another 1065 to mail off, another bank account to keep up with, another annual filing to do and transactions between LLC's could be tricky. If entity A needed $5k and you had $5k in entity B, to keep your corporate veil intact you'll probably need to do a draw on Entity B to you, then a contribution to Entity A. Things just get messy and its not worth the fuss unless you have a significant amount of equity in each entity, IMO.

As an accountant, we like the people with one entity per property....more books to keep, more k1's to issue, more 1065's to file, and more complicated tax returns = more $ for the firm....I'm joking...maybe.


Commercial Real Estate Broker · Memphis, Tennessee


In Tennesse there is a franchise tax of least $300 a year plus another tax you can get out of by filing some forms if the llc is family owned.

Unless someone has real assets of over 1 million, I always advise to just buy some insurance. Due to the tax costs and bookkeeping.

However if your tenants call and say there are sparks shooting out of the wall, don't ignore it and let the house burn down with 5 people dying. That will cause you to lose everything.


Real Estate Investor · Dallas, Texas


This thread has gravitated toward answering how many LLC's do you need and how much equity per LLC.

But so far no one has said they have lost a property due to liability. Anyone?

Jon K., VentureNet
E-Mail: jklaus@vnetinc.com
Telephone: 214-929-6545
Website: http://www.caddostar.com
Traveling to Dallas? Check out our ranch cabin getaway. www.caddostar.com


Real Estate Investor · sioux falls, South Dakota


Hi Jon- no i've never lost an LLC to liability, and I never will. As you and many know, I have another level of protection will an Irrevocable Family Trust for items to feed into with a poison pill provision. I had one attempted lawsuit years ago against me, until my legal counsel educated him..
As you reach levels that would damage you, I'd get another level of safety. I'd rather do that than lose any amount, especially 250K! Rich


Landlord · Seattle, Washington


There does come a point in time when it pays to higher good legal counsel to arrange your estate and provide more sophisticated asset protection plans.

Protecting your assets from lawsuits is only part of the big picture. Many will remember Howard Hughes, Howard Hughes died with multiple millions in assets. His estate got tied up in legal issues and the family has received very little. The lawyers on the other hand have been nicely compensated.


Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL


Originally posted by Rich Weese
Hi Jon- no i've never lost an LLC to liability, and I never will. As you and many know, I have another level of protection will an Irrevocable Family Trust for items to feed into with a poison pill provision. I had one attempted lawsuit years ago against me, until my legal counsel educated him..
As you reach levels that would damage you, I'd get another level of safety. I'd rather do that than lose any amount, especially 250K! Rich

Rich,

Could you elaborate on this Irrevocable Family Trust issue? My understanding is that trusts offer no liability protection. I'd love to learn about another possible layer of protection.


Rehabber · Santa Clarita, California


Originally posted by Kyle Koller
Rich,

Could you elaborate on this Irrevocable Family Trust issue? My understanding is that trusts offer no liability protection. I'd love to learn about another possible layer of protection.

I realize this question was directed to Rich, but I will inform you of one thing and let Rich do the elaboration. The trust you are referring to (a land trust) and the irrevocable family trust Rich is referring to are two different things. The irrevocable trust does in fact offer the protection while the land trust does not.

Small_barnardenterprisesWill Barnard, Barnard Enterprises, Inc.
E-Mail: info@barnardenterprises.com
Website: http://www.barnardenterprises.com
info@barnardenterprises.com


Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL


Originally posted by Will Barnard
Originally posted by Kyle Koller
Rich,

Could you elaborate on this Irrevocable Family Trust issue? My understanding is that trusts offer no liability protection. I'd love to learn about another possible layer of protection.

I realize this question was directed to Rich, but I will inform you of one thing and let Rich do the elaboration. The trust you are referring to (a land trust) and the irrevocable family trust Rich is referring to are two different things. The irrevocable trust does in fact offer the protection while the land trust does not.

Will, thanks for the response. I've never heard about the use of an "Irrevocable Family Trust" in regards to asset protection. It seems like a solid estate planning tool (something I'm a little too young to get into myself). However, it is unclear to me exactly how it affords liability protection to an investor. Nonetheless, I'd love to learn more as I had previously thought my liability protection options were limited to insurance and entity formations.


Real Estate Investor · South Carolina


Originally posted by Bryan Hancock
$250k seems like a random number without the state taxation issues as Steve described. Your insurance may not cover everything that the LLC could potentially protect against so you better read and understand your policy well if you are keeping a ton of assets in one LLC.

In this context, insurance is for one thing only -- liability. We purchase liability insurance to pay for our defense in the event of a lawsuit and to pay the amount awarded to the plaintiff should we lose the lawsuit. Liability insurance coverage should be for the maximum limit the insurer will write, not just the amount of equity in the LLC.

The $250K equity per LLC suggestion is a reasonalbe amount to "fence" your liability exposure yet still a large enough amount to show the LLC is adequately capitalized. Under capitalizing the LLC is another way the courts have pierced the corporate veil.


· Orlando, Florida


Another great thread...

some people here have recommended holding more than one property per LLC. Is that only a good idea for people who have a large number of properties so that they can spread the risk? What about people who own less than 10, for example?

The registered agent fee + annual state filing fee total is about $250/year per LLC. I was thinking of cutting that in half by putting 2 properties per LLC instead of one. Am I playing with fire? The max liability insurance that I can get on each LLC is the basic $300,000 liability that comes with a residential non-owner occupied policy (no umbrella insurance allowed on an LLC'd property according to everyone I've spoken to in my area).
Thanks.


Real Estate Investor · California


Originally posted by Bienes Raices
Another great thread...

some people here have recommended holding more than one property per LLC. Is that only a good idea for people who have a large number of properties so that they can spread the risk? What about people who own less than 10, for example?

The registered agent fee + annual state filing fee total is about $250/year per LLC. I was thinking of cutting that in half by putting 2 properties per LLC instead of one. Am I playing with fire? The max liability insurance that I can get on each LLC is the basic $300,000 liability that comes with a residential non-owner occupied policy (no umbrella insurance allowed on an LLC'd property according to everyone I've spoken to in my area).
Thanks.

IMO it depends on the amount of equity and not the cost / price of the property.

I currently have 2 properties under my name out of state. I'm looking at fixing my structure. But in California the LLC fees are $800 annually, and that would take a HUGE bite out of my cash flow.

My thoughts are a holding company, with child llc's holding properties with an equity up to 250k.

I have a TON to learn on this topic and the last few days have sparked some great new (and revival of old) threads.




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