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My Section 8 neighbors are drug dealers and robbers help with advice.

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Kaye Williams

Riverdale

Jun 17 '10, 11:02 AM
2 votes


My family and I live next door to section 8 tenants who are a nightmare. I have pictures of them selling drugs and smoking marijuana. I've filed reports through the police no action was fully taken. My car was broken into and a witness saw my neighbors daughter and a teenage boy still my mother's handicap placard. We got a replacement and filed it stolen with our state. Recently I witnessed a robbery at gun point of the section 8 neighbors right in front of my home as I looked out of my front door window at about 1:05 am Sat. morning on June 12,2010.
We hate these neighbors and I know that this a strong word but what else can we do to get rid of these people before they endanger somone else or my 3 daughters and myself or my elderly mom could be the next victims or be killed? Can we contact Section 8? What do I say? Will they kick them out? I don't want to implicate my family in this in anyway. Can the state revoke the landlord's license?I want to go to the section 8 office in person but can I report them stating that I am concerned citizen and how can we get the police to help get these people OUT!! since they violated every law under section 8 including disturbing our neighborhood's quiet of enjoyment rights.
My neighbors are so scared of this family and they're killing our block club and the "we call the police sign doesn't seem to intimidate all who come on this block to conduct drug sells on our block. Thank-you for your response and advice. :cry:


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Michael Rossi

Real Estate Investor from Ohio

Jun 17 '10, 11:38 AM


There is no easy way to deal with this drug scum. It's even more difficult if no-one is willing to give their name. It's hard enough to get the police to do anything if you're constantly in their face, but the police won't take you too seriously if you stay anonymous.

Can we contact Section 8? What do I say? Will they kick them out?


Yes, you can contact Section 8, but unless you have PROOF, they won't and can't do anything. Proof is not you seeing a drug deal go down, because the scumbags will claim it never happened. Proof is not you getting a video recording of a drug deal, because the scumbags will claim they were buying/selling something legal. Proof is not even an arrest for drugs, because they are innocent until convicted in court. It won't hurt to contact Section 8, but unless you are very lucky, they won't do anything.

Can the state revoke the landlord's license?


For what? Have the scumbags been convicted of a serious crime while in the house?

how can we get the police to help get these people OUT!!


The squeaky wheel gets oiled - meaning that if you keep contacting the police, and especially if you go have a personal talk with the police chief, you may get some action. That is probably your best option, but it can take months and months for the police to do the undercover work to actually bust the scum, and then they will be out on bond until the trial.

You've already seen an armed robbery. These people ARE DANGEROUS and you are certainly in danger, whatever you do. I would strongly suggest BUYING A GUN and getting trained to use it. If your state allows concealed carry, I would get the license and start carrying! When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. I carry a gun all the time.

Good Luck,

Mike
























Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16 by Michael Rossi


Bill Gulley

Real Estate Investor from Springfield, Missouri

Jun 17 '10, 12:43 PM


Hi, I'd suggest you use a camera with night shot, an infared system to shoot tape in the dark, instead of a gun. The camera will be alot cheaper too and you might borrow one. Be very discrete in using it. Then go to the police with it and the public housing authority. Oh, be sure you have the time date stamp on the tape and put a plug in the camera so it will not record sound! That way your tape can be used in court with your testimony. And, what does your landlord say about all this? Good luck, Bill


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Peter Giardini Donor

Real Estate Investor from Baltimore, Maryland

Jun 17 '10, 05:02 PM
1 vote


Go after the landlord. If they have any idea what they are doing their lease with these druggies will reference the druggies responsibilities regarding quite enjoyment of the neighbors around them and of course a no drug policy.

Stay on the landlord... if they don 't take action after having been notified, they are allowing themselves to be open to liability.

Best of luck!


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Michael Rossi

Real Estate Investor from Ohio

Jun 17 '10, 07:56 PM


Hi, I'd suggest you use a camera with night shot, an infared system to shoot tape in the dark, instead of a gun. The camera will be alot cheaper too and you might borrow one. Be very discrete in using it. Then go to the police with it and the public housing authority. Oh, be sure you have the time date stamp on the tape and put a plug in the camera so it will not record sound! That way your tape can be used in court with your testimony.


She's already got pictures of the druggies smoking pot and dealing drugs. What do they PROVE? They don't prove that the person is smoking pot or dealing drugs because a picture (or video) doesn't prove that it is POT or that DRUGS are being dealt. Section 8's hands are tied and they can't do ANYTHING with this kind of "evidence". Likewise, the police can't arrest anyone as a result of this "evidence". She won't need a date stamp on her pictures or video because it will never be evidence in court. What does it show? Someone smoking a funny looking cigarette? Many tenants roll their own tobacco cigarettes. Someone exchanging money for something? For what exactly? How does a picture or video prove that?

As for your advice that she not record sound, what is that based on? She didn't say what state she was from and many states allow recording of audio provided one party is aware of the audio recording. For example, in Ohio, recording the audio is completely legal as it is in many other states provided one party is aware of the recording.

I've got to tell you Financeexaminer, I'm kind of shocked that you are proporting to be a real estate "coach" and yet you don't seem to have any actual experience with this stuff. It seems like you're making this stuff up from watching too many cop shows on tv. Do you have any PERSONAL experience as a landlord? Have you ever PERSONALLY dealt with a druggie in connection with a rental?

Go after the landlord. If they have any idea what they are doing their lease with these druggies will reference the druggies responsibilities regarding quite enjoyment of the neighbors around them and of course a no drug policy.


Peter is right, going after the scumbag's landlord is certainly worth a try. He might be able to exert enough pressure on the scum to get them to leave. I just got rid of some druggies this month by intimidating and harrassing them. In my case, I kept going by the property (an apartment building) and running off the druggies that were hanging around (not the tenant, but his druggie friends). I called the police on the druggies while I was at the property and had the druggies arrested for trespass, open container, and other minor crimes. The tenant still had a job (a job he's held for a LONG time) and I threatened to garnish his wages. These tactics aren't for the faint-hearted; can be dangerous; and they don't always work, but if you put pressure on the drug-scum's landlord, he may put pressure on the tenants.

Unfortunately, this is where having a tenant on Section 8 can be a problem. The landlord's hands will be tied in getting rid of the tenant, not only by the lack of PROOF that something illegal is happening, but also by the HAP Contract (Section 8 contract). Evicting for things other than rent is almost always difficult, and Section 8 isn't going to allow the landlord to violate the HAP Contract. Finally, the drug-scum could contact Section 8 and file a complaint against the landlord for any of a million different things.

Hi, I'd suggest you use a camera with night shot, an infared system to shoot tape in the dark, instead of a gun.


Guns and cameras are not really interchangeable. A camera is good for taking pictures. A gun is good for protecting your life from the scum of the earth (and there are a LOT of them). A gun doesn't really work when you need a camera and A CAMERA DEFINITELY DOES NOT WORK WHEN YOU NEED A GUN TO PROTECT YOUR LIFE!


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16 by Michael Rossi


Bill Gulley

Real Estate Investor from Springfield, Missouri

Jun 17 '10, 08:54 PM


Michael, you an attorney now? Problem is we have limited space here. No, smoking on video doesn't prove it's a drug, survelliance with a VIDEO camera is all about what can happen. States have different laws on sound recording and in all 50, it's not necessary. Even if they said pass the joint, it wouldn't help. I believe I said or mentioned bringing up to the landlord.

Anytime tenants have problems with neighbors the landlord usually gets an ear full. In 20+ years of dealing with my own tenants they were pretty satisified, since I wasn't a slum lord, had nicer properties and decent areas and when I had a problem I took care of it, just as this landlord should do. Hearing tenants whine? Man, you have no idea what troubled tenants are until you run a public housing authority with over 1200 tenants,,,,,do I have experience......LMAO!

By the way, some states allow a landlord to immediately set out a tennant for drug usage on premises, better make sure it is an illegal drug, but immediate means, right now this second!


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Michael Rossi

Real Estate Investor from Ohio

Jun 17 '10, 09:27 PM
1 vote


Michael, you an attorney now? Problem is we have limited space here.

That's a fair question and I'd be happy to answer. No, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on the internet. However, what I AM is an actual landlord and as such, I am keenly aware of what does and does not work as "evidence" in court for both evictions and for criminal prosecutions. Furthermore, I have EXTENSIVE experience dealing with low income tenants; druggies; and criminals (something you indicate in your post that you do not). What I said in my post is absolutely correct - a photo or video of a drug deal or drug use (without a drug analysis) does not prove anything and is not a basis for arrest or even an eviction. If you ran a housing authority with over 1200 tenants, how could you not know that? I know the person that runs our local housing authority is keenly aware of these facts.

Also, your advice to get a camera (when she clearly already has one) INSTEAD of a gun is dangerous. The scum that she's dealing with have PROVEN to be dangerous. She knows that they are drug dealers. She knows that these criminals have guns, or at least are involved with people who are. She is in fear of her life and IS in danger. Whether your for or against guns is irrelevant. A camera can take a picture of someone that is about to kill you, but it won't protect you from the criminal. I know that I wouldn't trade my gun for a camera when I'm dealing with dangerous criminals.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Bill Gulley

Real Estate Investor from Springfield, Missouri

Jun 17 '10, 10:08 PM


Mike, you're to caught up in ranting and raving and trying to attack me that you didn't read what I said. I said a picture doesn't prove it's a drug. It's the tape (film Mike) that continues to run that catches other activities, like an armed robbery for example, that might be caught from survelliance. I'm sure you have experience in criminal matters Mike, don't doubt it at all.

I was in an intelligence unit in the Army, when I sold my mortgage company, I kinda retired and did absolutely nothing for about a year, just played. I got bored, I went to work for MJM Investigations, a national investigations firm. I ran survelliance and investigated insurance scams and fraud cases. I did this for the fun of it, not the money. They told me I would be working locally, like a 2 or 300 mile radius from my home. Well, not the case, they had me all over the country. You have no idea what I bumped into and I'm not going to waste any more bits of computer space on explaining anything to you about it.

Just one other thing, since you like to mention my "coaching". When you join BP you have to choose your specialty. I have done it ALL, there is NOTHING on the selections available that I have not done or accomplished, so it was a pick one thing.

I do assist others and I have mentored others for a long time, but not as a vocation, in other words, I don't charge people to assist them, generally. It's not a business for me! I'm not a guru wannabe with a book or tapes. So your continued reference to my coaching is fruitless and without merit, as most of your comments.

IMO, most people who carry guns are cowards, they can't handle themselves without one, that's why they carry them.
I have lots of guns, I don't need to carry them. A training course for conceal and carry won't teach a novice gun owner how to keep the gun, if I'm within six feet of them, chances are good they will lose their gun and if I were someone else, they could likely be shot with their own weapon, like most law enforcement officer shootings. It's a false sence of security and that's what's dangerous!

I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti-idiot with a gun.

Best advice is not be a cowboy, if someone is outside with a gun, stay inside and call the law! Having a gun, even after a 12 hour training course or what ever it is, is a joke to think that is sufficient training to get into a gun battle with someone. Having a camera inside a bag hidden from view with the lens pointed out the window at the subject is much safer.

As Peter mentioned, and I eluded to as well, get on the landlord, if the OPer is in fear for her life, keep the lanlord or the police on the phone. Fifty 911 calls will get results, if nothing else, the police will talk to the landlord.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Joshua Dorkin Verified Donor

BiggerPockets Founder from Denver, Colorado

Jun 17 '10, 10:15 PM
2 votes


Enough of the personal nonsense, guys. Stay on topic without going after one another. You're welcome to disagree with each other's opinions, but please don't get personal. Thank you.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


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Bill Gulley

Real Estate Investor from Springfield, Missouri

Jun 17 '10, 10:22 PM


Thanks Josh, Seems when such stuff starts like that someone has to defend themselves and it just grows from there, sorry I had to take the time and got off topic.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Tim W. Donor

Inspector from Tampa, FL

Jun 18 '10, 12:04 AM


Kaye,
Which Riverdale do you life in? NY, Georgia, somewhere else? My advice to you will depend heavily on your local area.

Tim


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Kaye Williams

Riverdale

Jun 18 '10, 12:21 AM


I appreciate the advice and thoughtful helpful advice. I do plan on meeting with the chief of police. By the way I live in the south suburbs of Chicago, IL in a Village named Riverdale. I am a homeowner and I live next door to section 8 tenants. These tenants are the 3rd family that has moved into this house. And the last 2 families that lived there before this current family all were involved in similiar crime and drug activities and the property manager doesn't live in the area and avoids me and my family every chance he gets so he won't here our concerns because he's a slumlord. But we are trying to resolve this problem to our block before someone else could get hurt. This why I now believe that this man can get his license revoked. This house has seen nothing but trouble through 3 families who mentality are all the same!
And I'm only speaking this way do to having bad experiences from section 8 tenants who are not being screened and just move in. And by the way this house sits right between the middle of my home and the neighbors next door to them who are also homeowners. One of the teenagers even stole their water hose and one our neighbors across the street noticed the section 8 tenants using the hose to water their grass. Unbelieveable!

We are not at peace on this block because of this one household and I stay constantly alert on these people because they don't like us and the feeling is mutual. I am not afraid of these people because I've dealt with worse and I don't live in FEAR as someone wrote on this forum but I have concerns because of my 3 children and I will protect my daughters at all cost.

But thank-you all again for some thoughtful advice
Kaye of Illinois


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:16


Michael Rossi

Real Estate Investor from Ohio

Jun 18 '10, 12:32 AM
1 vote


IMO, most people who carry guns are cowards, they can't handle themselves without one, that's why they carry them.

That's just plain ridiculous! Do cops carry guns because they're cowards who can't handle themselves? Does the military carry guns because they're cowards who can't handle themselves? If so, sign me up to be a coward and I'm proud to join them in carrying a gun. Just because you're a civilian doesn't mean that you give up your right to self-defense. Furthermore, should a 100 pound woman be able to "handle herself" against a drugged up meth user? How about 2 of them? That's what the gun is for - it immediately levels the playing field. If you did a little studying, you would know that guns are used SUCCESSFULLY for self-defense about 2 MILLION times a year in the United States.

Best advice is not be a cowboy, if someone is outside with a gun, stay inside and call the law!

I wholeheartedly agree! The point of being legally armed isn't to be a "cowboy", it IS to be able to defend yourself and your family from the scum of the earth (who don't play by the same rules that we do). My point in recommending that she get a gun is not that she become a "cowgirl", but that she be able to defend herself.

I also agree that taking a 12 hour course is not sufficient training. I would highly encourage anyone that is going to carry a gun to get additional self-defense handgun training!


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17


Michael Rossi

Real Estate Investor from Ohio

Jun 18 '10, 12:37 AM


Kaye,

You can forget the stuff I said about carrying a gun. Illinois is a Criminal Protection Zone (CPZ) and is one of only two states in the USA that prohibit law abiding citizens from carrying a gun with which to defend themselves.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17


Mike McKinzie

Accountant from Garden Grove, California

Jun 18 '10, 12:56 AM


This is a tough situation. I prefer to not own rentals where I need a gun, but some neighborhoods change after you invest there. For the OP, you do need some type of self defense. I prefer pepper spray over a gun for many reasons but mainly, I can take down multiple perps, I can't miss and usually a lot less legal hassle if used versus a gun. Also, if you kill a 'homey', WATCH OUT!

Obviously, the best thing is to move, if possible. Police, the landlord, Section 8, all have been mentioned, but the earth will always have SCUM, man is basically EVIL, so your options are limited.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17


Joe M.

Real Estate Investor from Hartville, Ohio

Jun 18 '10, 02:35 AM


Geesh what a nightmare. Sorry you are going through this.

I'm not as experienced as the other folks that have commented thus far, but I can say if I were in a similar situation I'd have some sort of personal protection in my home.

Heck I don't have any of the problems you are having and I still keep a handgun and a shotgun in my house for personal defense. I like to to call my shotgun "the persuader".


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17


Reid Mayo

Nashville, Tennessee

Jun 18 '10, 04:30 AM


Originally posted by MikeOH:


The squeaky wheel gets oiled - meaning that if you keep contacting the police, and especially if you go have a personal talk with the police chief, you may get some action.


Reminds me of the scene in The Shawshank Redemption where andy dufrane sends a letter a week to the local government for 5-6 years before they finally give him $200 to buy some books for the prison.

You can always try the news route too. Build up enough quasi-evidence about the dealers and document your dealings with the landlord then send your "documentary" to a small time local news station when nothing else is going on in the city. It might be B-footage but some stations will take any story they can get their hands on--especially a good investigative muckraking story. Could probably embarrass the landlord into some action, and who knows you might have some fun doing this too.

Whether this would be too dangerous would be based on how anonymous you are able to keep yourself. Anything's possible.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17


Tim W. Donor

Inspector from Tampa, FL

Jun 18 '10, 05:04 AM


Originally posted by Financexaminer:
's the tape (film Mike) that continues to run that catches other activities, like an armed robbery for example, that might be caught from survelliance. I'm sure you have experience in criminal matters Mike, don't doubt it at all.


Bill, I just finished up writing an insurance claim on the south side of Chicago, about 15 minutes from where Kaye lives, where thieves stole two semi tractor trailers (about 80 grand worth) of metals from a metal recycling plant. They were videotaped the whole time. In this video tape, they broke in, drove a semi truck in, hooked up a trailer of metals, drove off then came back again and took a second trailer. It's been nearly 2 months and the police haven't been able to catch who did it. If you feel like trusting your security and the life of your family to a system that 2 Mack trucks can literally drive through, go ahead with cameras. Cameras don't deter crime beyond red light intersections.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17 by Tim W.


Tim W. Donor

Inspector from Tampa, FL

Jun 18 '10, 05:19 AM


Kaye,
You're in a rough hood. I know it. I am from the Chicago area and handled a lot of insurance claims by you and in cal city, cal park, morgan park, etc.... It's a tough place to be. Frankly, I left the insurance company I was with because I got tired of being the guy they always sent there (and robbins, south holland, etc...) to investigate damage to vacant homes. I had to go into vacant homes by myself, unarmed...

Chicagoland being what it is, you're limited in what you can do. If it were me, I'd start with getting a big rottweiler. The cameras won't help much and the first thing that's likely to happen is they'll steal the cameras. To get a gun you're going to need an Illinois FOID card and you're probably going to be limited to a rifle or shotgun. You can't carry it off your property loaded and you'll have to keep it in your home. That scares some people. Another option is pepper spray. Now I'm not talking about the little keychain pepper spray. Go to Cabela's off I-80 in Hammond (about 20 minutes from you) and go to the second floor and walk to the section beyond the guns and ammunition where they sell live animal catch traps and look for bear spray. Check the laws on this and make sure there's no problem with keeping this and/or using it. Have you or your attorney research this further: Illinois: 720 ILCS 5/241 The use of a product “…containing a nonlethal noxious liquid gas or
substance designed solely for personal defense carried by a person 18 years of age or older” This will make a 30-40 foot cloud of pepper spray. Do install motion detector lights all around. Those are a tactical advantage to you.

Do keep constant contact with your local police but don't berate them about what a bad job they've done. They have this every day. Keep it friendly and make yourself a person they like. You'll attract a lot more flies with honey. Become personable to them and they won't be able to avoid the human condition of taking a personal interest in your security.

If you get sick of all this, you're welcome to come over to Indiana. I did and I'll never look back.


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17 by Tim W.


Tim W. Donor

Inspector from Tampa, FL

Jun 18 '10, 05:24 AM


Originally posted by MikeOH:
That's a fair question and I'd be happy to answer. No, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on the internet. However, what I AM is an actual landlord


I also suspect that you are not the kind of person who plays a landlord on the internet when a little bit of research reveals you're only a real estate agent...not even a broker. :wink:


Edited Jun 26 2010, 13:17


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