5/25/12 IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: MAJOR BP Update Next Week!

Hide this

Jump to Category View All

Click a category below to view different forum categories.

BiggerPockets

General Info

Rss10 BiggerPockets Q&A, Site Questions, & Announcements

1001 topics, 8199 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:01PM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Exclusive PRO Area

12 topics, 81 posts — Last Post 03/23/12, 03:25PM

Rss10 New Member Introductions

4596 topics, 26506 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 04:49AM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Success Stories

152 topics, 1813 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:22AM

Rss10 BiggerPockets Real Estate Investing Summit

87 topics, 1549 posts — Last Post 05/07/12, 02:13PM

General Real Estate

General Real Estate

Rss10 Buying Real Estate

1318 topics, 10389 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:20PM

Rss10 Selling Real Estate

320 topics, 2544 posts — Last Post 05/08/12, 07:34PM

Rss10 Renters

202 topics, 1618 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 11:34AM

Rss10 Get Foreclosure Help - Help Stop Foreclosure Forum

221 topics, 1747 posts — Last Post 05/18/12, 08:38PM

Rss10 Home Owner Association (HOA) Issues & Problems Forum

111 topics, 719 posts — Last Post 05/08/12, 06:37AM

Rss10 Do it Yourself

328 topics, 2841 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 09:10AM

Reviews & Feedback

Rss10 Real Estate Deal Analysis and Advice

1625 topics, 12979 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 06:56PM

Rss10 Real Estate Guru, Book & Course Reviews and Discussions

700 topics, 7128 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 02:16PM

Rss10 Ask About A Real Estate Company

330 topics, 4781 posts — Last Post 05/10/12, 10:31PM

Real Estate Investing

Real Estate Strategies

Rss10 Wholesaling

2588 topics, 19948 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 12:14PM

Rss10 Rehabbing and House Flipping

1622 topics, 14297 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:24PM

Rss10 Real Estate Development

202 topics, 1123 posts — Last Post 05/19/12, 07:40AM

Rss10 Pre-Construction & New Home Construction

90 topics, 600 posts — Last Post 05/05/12, 11:02AM

Rss10 Innovative Strategies

378 topics, 2936 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:21PM

Rss10 Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, & Cash Flows Discussion

477 topics, 2850 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 02:54PM

Rss10 Rent to Own a.k.a. Lease Purchase, Lease Options

355 topics, 2229 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:12PM

Rss10 1031 Exchanges

62 topics, 342 posts — Last Post 04/29/12, 08:09PM

Foreclosure Investing

Rss10 General Foreclosure & Pre-Foreclosure Forums

1156 topics, 7084 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 06:30PM

Rss10 HUD, VA, and Tax Sales

216 topics, 1327 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 01:59PM

Rss10 REOs

948 topics, 7884 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 05:04PM

Rss10 Short Sales

1254 topics, 10440 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 01:58PM

Landlord & Tenant Forums

Rss10 Rental Property Questions & Landlording Issues

3183 topics, 28801 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 04:53PM

Rss10 Land & Farm Investing

118 topics, 736 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 01:27PM

Rss10 Mobile Homes & Mobile Home Park Investing

416 topics, 3071 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 05:40PM

Real Estate Dealmaking

Rss10 Make Deals, Find Partners, Mentors & BirdDogs, etc.

3703 topics, 13611 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 06:57PM

Rss10 Promote Your Real Estate Buyer's List

160 topics, 689 posts — Last Post 05/02/12, 05:54AM

Rss10 Property Wanted

635 topics, 3041 posts — Last Post 05/19/12, 07:44AM

Rss10 Seeking Financing, Money, or Loans

1245 topics, 7437 posts — Last Post 05/21/12, 10:41AM

Rss10 Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, & Cash Flows Dealmaking

277 topics, 1909 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 06:40PM

Rss10 Bulk REO Discussion and REO Dealmaking

843 topics, 5906 posts — Last Post 02/02/12, 04:20PM

Investor Basics

Rss10 Starting Out

4197 topics, 30898 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 03:17PM

Rss10 Investor Psychology

298 topics, 4486 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 09:01PM

Rss10 General Real Estate Investing

3145 topics, 21840 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:22PM

Rss10 Real Estate Investor Marketing

910 topics, 7482 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:26AM

Commercial Real Estate

Rss10 Commercial Real Estate Investing Forum

743 topics, 3995 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 08:46AM

Rss10 Multi-Family and Apartment Investing

219 topics, 2013 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 11:11AM

Rss10 Office Investing

3 topics, 36 posts — Last Post 11/15/11, 02:42PM

Rss10 Industrial Property Investing

4 topics, 14 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 06:44AM

Rss10 Retail Property Investing

10 topics, 77 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 10:15AM

Rss10 CRE Financing and Lending

26 topics, 247 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 05:27AM

Rss10 CRE Syndication and Fundraising

26 topics, 236 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 04:52PM

Rss10 CRE Property Management & Leasing

2 topics, 12 posts — Last Post 05/18/12, 12:34PM

The Business of Real Estate

Real Estate Technology and the Internet

Rss10 Technology, Social Media, Real Estate & The Web

270 topics, 2278 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:17PM

Rss10 Real Estate Blogs & Blogging

24 topics, 293 posts — Last Post 05/16/12, 09:29PM

Business Basics

Rss10 Goals, Business Plans & Entities

428 topics, 4273 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 09:08PM

Real Estate Finance & Legal

Financial, Tax, and Legal

Rss10 Tax, Legal Issues, Contracts, Self-Directed IRA

1349 topics, 9465 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 07:35AM

Rss10 Credit & Credit Repair

182 topics, 1484 posts — Last Post 05/22/12, 06:06PM

Rss10 Property Insurance

135 topics, 850 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 03:36PM

Rss10 Bankruptcy

21 topics, 113 posts — Last Post 05/21/12, 08:25PM

Loans, Mortgages, Credit Lines

Rss10 Private & Conventional Lending Discussion

1346 topics, 8087 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 02:20PM

Rss10 Creative Real Estate Financing

659 topics, 4285 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 10:58AM

Real Estate Professionals

Real Estate Professionals

Rss10 Real Estate Agents

639 topics, 3562 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 07:47PM

Rss10 Bankers, Lenders, and Mortgage Brokers

355 topics, 1268 posts — Last Post 05/04/12, 01:18AM

Rss10 Contractors

122 topics, 669 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:17PM

Local Real Estate

International Real Estate

Local Real Estate

Rss10 Local Real Estate Networking

612 topics, 3434 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 02:08PM

Rss10 Americans & International Real Estate

139 topics, 505 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 02:00PM

Rss10 Foreigners Buying in the USA

56 topics, 288 posts — Last Post 05/02/12, 07:54PM

Rss10 Canadian Real Estate

26 topics, 130 posts — Last Post 03/19/12, 05:58PM

Marketplace

Real Estate Marketplace

Rss10 Mortgages & Lending

392 topics, 1757 posts — Last Post 05/20/12, 03:10AM

Rss10 Residential Property, Land, & Farms For Sale

760 topics, 1463 posts — Last Post 05/24/12, 06:58PM

Rss10 Real Estate Events & Happenings

118 topics, 505 posts — Last Post 05/07/12, 10:07PM

Rss10 Commercial Properties for Sale or Lease

224 topics, 671 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:42AM

Rss10 Domains & Website Reviews

48 topics, 391 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 07:07AM

Rss10 Classifieds - Promote your Website, Newsletter, or Product

595 topics, 2801 posts — Last Post 05/23/12, 06:42PM

Off-Topic

Off Topic

Rss10 Off-Topic

1866 topics, 19997 posts — Last Post 05/25/12, 08:12AM

Rss10 Housing News & Real Estate Market

666 topics, 6615 posts — Last Post 05/09/12, 03:11PM

BiggerPockets Resources

Forums » Rehabbing and House Flipping » My first flip, detailed adventure

My first flip, detailed adventure Subscribe to My first flip, detailed adventure

41 posts by 18 users

Signup


Last week I put under contract a real fixer upper. 140 year old all cypress framed ~1250 sq ft. 3/1.

I have it under contract for $16,500. Comparables in the area are selling in the $80-90,000 range, average listing time is ~2 months. However our's has a fireplace which is not normal for this price range, so I feel we will sell quickly.

Here are the pictures.

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii132/bigbadjonv/House%20purchase/

The house had been updated in the early 80's, and is being sold by the same owner. She rented it out to some people who demolished it.

So far, we've already had an inspection, everything came back fine except some outlets are grounded, and some aren't. Also the hot water heater's and furnace's pilot lights aren't turning on.

The furnace has a lot of rust because it hasn't been turned on in two winters. I'm hoping a service person can come out and clean it up and it will magically start working again, if not we are going to have to replace it. The HVAC was put in 1996.

We are closing on this coming Tuesday, we are basically re-dry-walling everything and reflooring as well. I have setup in our budget a "minimum" and "everything" column and we will assess the best option as we go along.

Here is my current budget, it's kind of rough atm.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtKJIUDSMuNCdDJEeWlIeS1hQV9tcDlJNzdIaDNzS3c&hl=en&authkey=CPjViVg

The neighborhood has had sales directly across the street for $150-180,000 but they are larger houses (+2,000 sq ft.). It is a safe family friendly neighborhood in small town America.

I've also posted this on another forum. I look forward to talking about this flip. As long as my wife and I break even, we will be ok as we've wanted to do this for a LONG time.

It also helps that the neighborhood is the same that I grew up in, and I REALLY want to make this a good home that will attract a family that will help retain the value of the neighborhood.



With that being said, I do have a question in regards to old windows. They are all structurally fine, they do have a bunch of dings and old paint. What is the best way to tackle these things? There are a few storm window panes missing and interior window panes missing but nothing screams "replace me".

Should we just putty, sand, and paint them all?


Real Estate Investor · California


Holy Cow, you're going to have quite a job in front of you.

Are you doing everything alone? Do you have a team? What's your experience level?

What's your exit plan? When do you want it done by? I've requested access to the numbers, since you don't have it shared as open.

Once I see the numbers, it'll make more sense to see what you do.



https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtKJIUDSMuNCdDJEeWlIeS1hQV9tcDlJNzdIaDNzS3c&hl=en&authkey=CPjViVg

See if that works, it should be open to anyone, you can't make changes, but you should be able to see #'s and formulas.

I have zero experience other than personal home renovations.

I will have a contractor doing everything except possibly some landscaping. The contractor has been a father figure to me for 17 years (since I was 11) and has been doing this for a long, long time.

From seeing his work, and knowing how much personal renovations have cost me, I know he is affordable and reliable.

Six months is the timeline I would like to have it completely sold by.


Real Estate Investor · Dallas, Texas


Click-able links:

http://s263.photobucket.com/albums/ii132/bigbadjonv/House%20purchase/

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtKJIUDSMuNCdDJEeWlIeS1hQV9tcDlJNzdIaDNzS3c&hl=en&authkey=CPjViVg

Jon K., VentureNet
E-Mail: jklaus@vnetinc.com
Telephone: 214-929-6545
Website: http://www.caddostar.com
Traveling to Dallas? Check out our ranch cabin getaway. www.caddostar.com


Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, Wisconsin


That house should have all new low-e windows for resale. I even put these in my rentals. 130 yr old windows suck and if you are going to spend more than a few bucks on them and they are not part of the character I would get new ones.

From the pictures the place looks like a total gut. Are you planning to rewire the whole house. It does not look like the wires are up to code (not enough outlets).

A job this size would cost me about 50-75k depending on the finish. I don't know what the other houses around there look like though.

Have the mechanicals been updated? Is there a sag in the floors in the middle or is that door just off?



The door is off, it actually fell off the hinges last time we were in there.

Everything was updated in the early 80's. The roof is about 5-10 years old.


Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, Wisconsin


Those windows are not from the 80's?



And there are enough outlets, my wife just happened to not get them all in the pictures.

As for rewiring, I'm going to go with what the contractor says to do.

Everything is pretty easily accessible and when they get everything torn out it won't be too bad getting everything redone.

The electric panel has been upgraded in the last twenty years (I'm guessing when they installed the HVAC) and has enough room for more breakers.


Landlord · Seattle, Washington


Look forward to hearing about your experience. I suspect there will be a number of surprises this being your first rehab, but it sounds like you may have a competent contractor to get you through.



Originally posted by Jeffrey K.
Those windows are not from the 80's?

I'm not sure about the windows, I'm guessing they are much older, they are the kind with ropes on them, so I guess by "everything" I mean "a lot".


Real Estate Investor · Milwaukee, Wisconsin


Hope it goes well for you. Let us know how your numbers end up.


Real Estate Investor · Atlanta, Georgia


I think I provided my feedback in the other forum, but I'm glad you brought it over here as well...I'm looking forward to following your progress!

J Scott, Lish Properties, LLC
Telephone: 770-906-6358
Website: http://www.123flip.com
http://www.123flip.com


Real Estate Investor · Southlake, Texas


140 yrs? Way to jump on in the deep end!

I've heard cypress is so valuable and durable that they pull old cypress logs out of the swamps and lakes that sunk during logging over a hundred years ago.

Congrats on your first deal. What area of the country are you in?

Small_screen_shot_2011-03-24_at_8.39.20_pmTod R., Thompson Realty Corporation
Telephone: 817-781-1942
Website: http://www.thompson-realty.com
radyakllc@gmail.com http://www.thompson-realty.com



I'm in Arkansas


Residential Real Estate Agent · St. Louis, Missouri


J Scott: care to post your feedback here as well?


Rehabber · Decatur, Georgia


I concur that this house looks like a total gut.

Off the top of my head...

I'd plan to replace all the windows. 'Round my parts, that's $179/window or thereabouts for vinyl Low-E.

I'd expect to rewire entirely or significantly to bring the house to code and as a safety factor. Hodgepodge wiring, IMO, is rarely worth saving.

Have you pressurized the plumbing? I'd expect most of the plumbing to simply go kerplunk on you the instant you put pressure on the lines... or at least for the shutoffs to leak horribly. I'd also expect the drain lines to be suspect.

Forget fixing roof leaks. If the roof is old and a-leakin' one place, it's probably systemic. I'd plan for a replacement.

You lack door hardware. New hinges and doorknobs do a lot to spruce up a place like that.

I assume your flooring price is 100% carpet. What about tile in the kitchens and bathrooms? Tile is not $2.39/ft after labor.

Your sheetrock price is pretty low. I figure about $13-15/board, at about $6/board plus mud. But then, I treat labor differently...

Speaking of labor - if you're planning for one sole guy, and maybe his helper, come in and do this job... I estimate that you'll get done before the sun goes supernova. Maybe. You've got an incredible amount of labor just in small things like doors, floors, and sheetrock. To say nothing about plumbing, electrical, roofing, etc.

If I've reverse-engineered your labor number correctly... It looks like you've simply said... 8 weeks of labor, 40 hours a week, at $25 an hour.

Simply put, I'm not sure that you've got nearly enough labor here. Especially not if you're using someone who is general-purpose, and not using specialists for things like electrical and plumbing.

I see in your pictures that there is definitely some carpentry to be done. In a structure that old, you're going to be running into dry-rotted wood, dead superstructure, and other nasty surprises left and right. You need a budget for carpentry, and most importantly you need a carpenter who is competent to work on a building that old.

Photo #5 looks like maybe that's asbestos ceiling tiles. You need to check into it... if that is asbestos, you need to factor for correct removal of the material.

With HVAC closing in on 15 years old, I'd probably plan for replacement. I'd also expect a new water heater to be a requirement.

Back to windows... without seeing them, I'd say you should probably count on, at the very least, reglazing them. Reglazing can turn into an enormously labor-intensive job all by itself. I normally just avoid that issue by replacing the windows.

Doors are the same way. Those are no doubt the awesome, old-school, solid-core 5-panel interior doors made of awesome and badassery.
They're probably also dinged, scraped, and chipped up. Consider the fact that to make them look nice, you or someone you're paying will have to spend HOURS AND HOURS with bondo, wood filler, a palm sander, and then paint to make them look good again. This can turn into a very costly endeavor.

On the flip side, a nice, new, masonite pre-hung door should only run you about $50 (At least, that's what it costs me) and should take a good carpenter approximately 10 minutes to nail in place. It can very easily be cheaper to replace old doors than to fool around with them for hours upon hours trying to make them look good again.

I can't quite tell from the pictures - is there a layer of plywood over the old floors, or is that luan subfloor? In either case, you seriously need to look at the floor from the crawl space and try to determine if someone in years past put that flooring there because the old floor and old joists had started to rot out for some reason.

If the original subfloor and joist are rotting... then hold on to your hat, because the whole thing is going to get seriously expensive in a big hurry and your cosmetic rehab job will have suddenly turned into a structural rehab job.

You need to seriously consider your dumpster cost. A job of this size could pretty quickly turn into more than one dumpster. (Actually, it's hard to do much with just one dumpster. Rarely have I run a job that didn't take at least 2)

Uhh, I guess I'm kinda turning this into a word-wall, so I'll stop now. Needless to say, you've got yourself one heckuva first project! I'll be most interested in your follow-up posts.



Thanks a lot for the feedback Aaron!

We are planning on replacing all interior and exterior doors. The roof is in good shape, it's ~5-10 years old, just there is one area in the back where there is a small leak from someone sticking something through the roof.

Labor is very cheap in this area, including good labor. $1,250 a week will get you 2 workers and the contractor overseeing the project.

For the skill intensive ones my contractor knows everyone in town and will pick the most cost-efficient, reliable one.

Flooring is all laminate hardwood, except the kitchen and bathroom, we've already purchased it for $2.39. (After tax) I did not include labor in the $/sq ft as the labor is all done by the contractor and his workers and is done by the week.

There is a layer of plywood over the old original pine floors. They had put carpet on top of the old floors. It is not rotting.

Thanks for the rest of the advice.


Real Estate Investor · California


Much like stocks, make sure you have your exit strategy prior to your enter strategy.

It's easy to buy a stock, it's hard to know when to sell it. You want to have that plan for winning / losing scenarios.

It sounds like you've done your share of the home work, and I'm interested in following your progress.. so make sure you keep us updated.


Real Estate Consultant · Boulder, Colorado


@Jonnyv88 - I am excited to see how this works out for you. Good luck and keep us all posted.

It looks like there is a lot to learn from people in this forum!




Sign up