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Why do investors buy HOA liens at auction?

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Eddie P.

Real Estate Investor from South, Florida

Sep 02 '11, 06:32 AM


I constantly see investors buying up HOA liens at the foreclosure auction and wonder what is the reason? If they had no mortgage or a low balance on the mortgage, I would understand. Most times they are way under water and still get bought.

Am I missing something? Do they evict the owners and hope they can rent it out long enough to make a profit, while the bank forecloses? Do they try to negotiate with the lien holder for a low settlement?

Doesn't seem logical.



Scott Hubbard

Rehabber from Tucson, Arizona

Sep 02 '11, 07:45 AM


Stupidity knows no bounds.... There is no secret, they either did not do their homework and do not understand what they just purchased, or they intend to rent the property out until the senior lender takes it back.

With the latter, I cannot imagine a more diabolical and risky strategy. The new owner would have to evict the former owner(s) or tenant(s) and hope to rent the property out quickly in order to make your money back. That is why I believe the reason to be ignorance in most cases.



Eddie P.

Real Estate Investor from South, Florida

Sep 02 '11, 08:39 AM


Might be ignorance in some cases, but I sometimes see the same bidder buying them on multiple occasions.

That is why I figured they were betting on collecting enough rent to cover their investment plus a profit.

One just went through today that someone paid $19,500 for. This unit would most likely rent for $2500+, the lender initiated foreclosure in 2009 for the unpaid balance of $609k and the current value is $250K. Considering that most contested foreclosures in this can take from 2-3 years to complete, I don't think they have much time to collect rent.



Rob Gillespie

Real Estate Investor from Fairview Park, Ohio

Sep 02 '11, 03:52 PM
8 votes


HOA liens are "super liens"! They go in front of first position mortgage, so they can foreclose the bank out, so the bank has a choice, pay off the lien with interest or loose their lien. Same with back property tax liens. Hope that helps. :mrgreen:



Bill Patterson

Real Estate Investor from Portage, Michigan

Sep 02 '11, 04:46 PM


Rob,
Can you please elaborate on that? I am on a Condo HOA Board and we have an issue with one of our owners not paying. We have a judgment, but hesitate to foreclose.
No hurry....Have a great holiday weekend!
Bill



Jason S.

Real Estate Investor from Upland, California

Sep 02 '11, 05:31 PM
1 vote


Originally posted by Rob Gillespie:
HOA liens are "super liens"! They go in front of first position mortgage, so they can foreclose the bank out, so the bank has a choice, pay off the lien with interest or loose their lien. Same with back property tax liens. Hope that helps. :mrgreen:

I like to see a source on this because it is completely contrary to my understanding.

1. There is more than one reason why you would want to control a house.
2. There is more than one way to negotiate with junior liens once you are on title.
3. There are more reasons.



Scott Hubbard

Rehabber from Tucson, Arizona

Sep 02 '11, 06:54 PM
2 votes


Originally posted by Rob Gillespie:
HOA liens are "super liens"!

In many instances Ron is correct.... HOA liens can be superior, but only when purchasing the lien rights to collect the outstanding debt. If you were to purchase that debt from the lienholder, you will be repaid for the face value of the debt plus an lawful interest and legal fees.

However, in Florida for instance, when a successful bidder buys a HOA lien at a foreclosure auction, they get title subject to the existing mortgages and other junior encumbrances. This is a good thing when the sum total of the outstanding liens are less than market value of the property. However, the OP clearly states the properties are underwater. Therefore, it would not make sense for the purchaser to payoff the existing mortgages.

Superior liens or not, when an HOA lien is paid of at a foreclosure auction, the successful bidder now owns the property subject to the inferior lien-holders. Since these are paid off, they cease to be a lien and therefore are no longer superior. Plus, you cannot put a lien on something you now own, so that money used to purchase the lien is now gone.

This is why both Eddie and me believe the investor buying these up must be renting out the property in order to make a profit. He may also have inside information which allows to take such a large gamble.



Scott Hubbard

Rehabber from Tucson, Arizona

Sep 02 '11, 06:59 PM


Originally posted by Jason S.:
Originally posted by Rob Gillespie:
HOA liens are "super liens"! They go in front of first position mortgage, so they can foreclose the bank out, so the bank has a choice, pay off the lien with interest or loose their lien. Same with back property tax liens. Hope that helps. :mrgreen:

I like to see a source on this because it is completely contrary to my understanding.

1. There is more than one reason why you would want to control a house.
2. There is more than one way to negotiate with junior liens once you are on title.
3. There are more reasons.

The investor purchasing the liens must be working some sort of settlement angle, figured a way to delay foreclosure or has inside information that allows him to vet his risk by inserting a renter. Perhaps the owner is cooperating in some way.

When negotiating with mortgage companies, you need to have the seller's cooperation or at least authorization to even speak about the loan.

Is this investor you speak of targeting a specific 1st position lender?



Jason S.

Real Estate Investor from Upland, California

Sep 03 '11, 12:46 AM


I would track a purchase, determine the name he takes title in, go back in assessor records, see what he has done historically - let us know what you find.

I have done this before, when in doubt, investigate. You may learn something new and powerful.

I for one, would be interested in what he is doing.



Brian P.

Real Estate Investor from Taylorsville, Utah

Sep 03 '11, 03:57 PM
1 vote


Better check your state laws. In the states I done business in they were not superior liens, so you were actually buying subject to and if you were dumb enough to think they were like property taxes you just took a life education class and it wasn't free.



Dan Chappell

Vallejo, California

Sep 03 '11, 06:09 PM


I agree with Brian, HOA liens are not normally senior in CA. Perhaps in some other states they are.

Its my understanding that when I buy a 1st trust deed position from a trustee in a CA non-judicial foreclosure, the HOA lien is discharged.

The HOA may attempt to collect from the prior owner but not from me.



Eric Michaels

Real Estate Lender from Chicago, Illinois

Sep 03 '11, 08:19 PM
3 votes


This is a strategy very popular in Fla the past couple of years. It is def a rent out til the senior lenders foreclose deal. The can control a property for say $5K and collect $1K a month for a couple of years til the mortgage lender completes foreclosure.
There are lots of techniques in Fla to slow down foreclosure and many can last much longer than 2 years.
As with many unethical business strategies, this is very profitable.



John Lambert

Tampa, Florida

Apr 02 '12, 08:39 AM


Can someone please tell me if there is any validity to this:
I've heard that people (in FL) have gone to these auctions to pay the off the lien (which is some unpaid HOA fees that have accrued over a year or so). They are then given the title, and as long as they continue to pay the HOA fees, they could live in the unit themselves. At some point the bank will either write the property off, and you receive full ownership, or worse case scenario, they don't write it off, and you simply move out. You would have essentially gotten a very cheap (HOA fees) rental property for that period of time. I know that it would be better for the HOA, because they could at least collect the HOA fees that they were otherwise losing. Any thoughts?



Steve K

Real Estate Investor from Orlando, Florida

Apr 02 '12, 09:17 AM


In Florida you can pay off the HOA lien and take a dirty title subject to the existing mortgage. A common scenario is to simply rent the property back to the previous owner until the bank finally comes calling and then you can either walk away or negotiate. This is pretty shady, but not that uncommon.

The bank is not going to write off the property. They'll eventually get around to foreclosure.




Andy Chu

Residential Real Estate Broker from Las Vegas, Nevada

Apr 03 '12, 12:46 AM


In Nevada, these liens are "super priority liens". They wanted it to be special and add a super to the name of it. I can understand buying them for 3-5K but 20K for one is a little excessive, unless there is some laws preventing foreclosures at this time.



Chris Clothier Verified Donor

Real Estate Investor from memphis, Tennessee

Apr 03 '12, 07:22 AM
2 votes


Originally posted by @Eric Michaels:

As with many unethical business strategies, this is very profitable.

Eric Michaels - How is this strategy unethical? Past due debts are bought and sold every day. There is nothing illegal or unethical about that.



Medium_new_mi_logoChris Clothier, Memphis Invest, GP
Telephone: 901-212-9647
Website: http://www.memphisinvest.com
www.MemphisInvest.com 1(877)-773-9998 Chris D Clothier


Bill Patterson

Real Estate Investor from Portage, Michigan

Apr 03 '12, 07:46 AM


Originally posted by Chris Clothier:
Originally posted by Eric Michaels:

As with many unethical business strategies, this is very profitable.

Eric Michaels - How is this strategy unethical? Past due debts are bought and sold every day. There is nothing illegal or unethical about that.

Chris, I think Eric is talking about renting the property that they don't own, but have a lien against, until the lender can foreclose on it. Probably the tenants don't know until it is foreclosed. I see his point!
Bill



Andy Chu

Residential Real Estate Broker from Las Vegas, Nevada

Apr 03 '12, 08:14 AM


If one discloses, there is no problem. Also when you buy an hoa lien, you get a deed to the property.



Steve Babiak

Real Estate Investor from Audubon, Pennsylvania

Apr 03 '12, 09:45 AM
1 vote


Originally posted by Eric Michaels:
This is a strategy very popular in Fla the past couple of years. It is def a rent out til the senior lenders foreclose deal. ....
As with many unethical business strategies, this is very profitable.

For those who are questioning what is unethical, I believe that it comes from the following: the purchase of these liens is being done with the intent to NEVER gain clear title, and with the expectation that the property WILL be foreclosed sometime in the future by the senior lien holders. So the tenant is being given occupancy for an uncertain duration.

Now, the lease might be month-to-month, so the tenant knows they might have to go at any time, but calling it unethical is probably based on the purchaser's intentions at the time of purchase.

The lender should probably cover the HOA lien to protect their collateral - think about the condition of that rental when it does eventually go to foreclosure by the lender. The HOA lien purchaser is unlikely to do any repair or maintenance of significant costs, and is also less likely to get irate over tenant caused damages.



Steve Babiak, Redeeming Properties, LLC
Telephone: 6109082183
...


Anson Young Verified Video

Real Estate Investor from Denver, Colorado

Apr 03 '12, 01:23 PM
2 votes


Varies by state. This is how it works in CO:

1. I find a property in foreclosure with what looks to be a low remaining mortgage balance, and has a HOA lien.

2. I approach HOA, offer to buy out their lien (not a super lien state, so this is a 2nd or 3rd place lien) for $100 (or whatever) based on the fact that their $4k lien will get wiped out at foreclosure anyways.

3. CO is a 15 day redemption state for JR lienholders only. Property goes to auction, I redeem it from whoever bought it (even if the bank bought it back).

Why? Well, it avoids the rampant collusion going on at our county auctions. If Jack and Bob work out a deal where Bob wont bid up this property, and Jack will return the favor on the next one Bob wants, I can swoop in and take it for the same price Jack bought it for plus my HOA lien $$.

Or I approach Jack and ask for $3k to NOT redeem. Often times, both.

Risky game, but I know 2 guys doing it.



Medium_anson_property_group_copyAnson Young, Anson Property Group
Telephone: 303-475-9999


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