BiggerPockets

Ok,
This is my last post on this. I will say all here and have nothing further when this is done. If it can't be figured out by the end of this post that I'm not just going to give away all my information....I can't help you.

1. I have never called myself a Guru. For me I decided that to be a Guru I would need a 20 to 30 year track record in real estate and have completed making the majority of my income in real estate transactions and have shifted to making the majority of my income in training. 90% of my income still comes from real estate transactions, 10% from training and I am not ready to make that shift. I teach 1 course on one specific subject of property acquisition. That's it. I have been a teacher since I was 23. I got my degree in teaching and regardless of what I do, I will always teach as it is a passion of mine. Will I teach for free? Of course not.

2. We are in the Information Age. There is no value to real estate in and of itself. The value in any piece of real estate is the value of the INFORMATION attached to that real estate. Land or a structure with the improper application of information is a liability. The applicaiton of information applied to that house turns it into an asset. There is VALUE to the proper information on real estate. Information gained through investment of money and/or time is valuable I have seen the value of the information I have gained and thus is the reason it is proprietary. Also, this information is time sensitive to current economic conditions. I've got about 2-5 years of prime use on this information and have no intention of squandering it.

3. Here is the last and final reason why I do not disclose the information on where I am buying property. It is the same reason Native Americans didn't tell white European settlers the best buffalo hunting spots. I have seen 4 markets get inundated by uninformed, undisciplined buyers which led to unnatural price jacking of the best real estate there. They are Buffalo, NY; Hammond, IN; Memphis, TN; and Springfield, MO - the last is where I learned REI. These markets were areas with a disproportionately high number of tenants leading to naturally low prices in real estate. For 15 years as I grew up, my dad told me to never talk about Springfield, MO as he was buying property there. 5 years ago I learned why, as out of state investors, high on REI crack, came in and bought in a completely uninformed and undisciplined manner. Their buying jacked prices up beyond a level of sustainability and property was no longer accessible at a price you could cashflow comfortably at. I was going to buy in Springfield but could no longer find the cashflow I wanted and believed some mentor hype that I could find this kind of cashflow in Chicago. This is not the case. Thus began my 3 year search for a market similar to what Springfield WAS. Within that time I found Buffalo, NY; Hammond, IN; and Memphis, TN. I found Buffalo through ebay auctions some years ago and was finding price per units on occupied properties to be about $5,000.00. I was excited and told everyone. Within 2 years the undisciplined buyers came in. Again I got excited about all my findings about northwest Indiana and Memphis, Tennesse and made the same mistake 2 more times. Northwest Indiana was around 2004 when you could still find nice houses with minimal repairs for 5 to 10 grand all day long. I found Memphis in September of 2005 when Katrina hit Louisiana and I heard a news story that people were being redistributed from that area to Memphis, TN. Immediately my investor thinking realized that the government was dramatically increasing a population of non-mobile renters into a town that had been experiencing very little property appreciation and no recognition from the investment community at large. I drove there, found that property within the city was taxed ridiculously but that property right outside the city limits was beautiful, very cheap and had reasonable taxes and excellent returns on cashflow. I was in the midst of my divorce at that time and put together a plan to begin purchasing there once the legal stuff was finished and in the interim again...told everyone about it. You'd think I would have learned by then.... :roll:

After all this, I got pissed at myself and decided to find the best cashflowing market I could imagine and as close as possible to Chicago, where I lived. During this time I also studied why renters stay in certain areas. I had a little bit of a background in psychology and sociology and actually found my answer there rather than economics. After all, if renters made their decisions on economics....they wouldn't be renters. I found that exceptionally cashflowing areas had specific sociological and psychological " anchors" to them that would compel people to stay there regardless of where the economy was at. I identified these anchors and began noting them, then researching the local communities around them. As a result of my study I located a market I could get to faster than my job commute where I could buy property outright for cheaper than a downpayment in Chicago with merely cosmetic repairs and a sustainable population of tenants with anchors that would NEVER go away. For 7 months I told NO ONE of this market outside of Matt Gil, Joe Bianchi, Manz Ballasteros and my dad. These were people I could trust with this information.

In October of last year I had a discussion with one of my mentors who advised me that no matter what business you are in - that if you believe in something you have an obligation to sell it. I then decided to sell my information and targeted people like myself - disgruntled investors who wanted maximum cashflow percentages. I only sell to experienced investors and/or business owners and my average student has either completed 5 deals or been a business owner for 5 years. I don't like to sell this to total newbies because they tend not to be burned by the charlatans yet and don't see the value to it. Also, newbies tend to get excited and excitement leads to loose lips and I don't need a bunch of hack birddog/wholesalers with a website and a vistaprint business card coming in here and screwing up a good thing. Make no mistake. I realize that every time I sell a course I am creating a new competitor. I am very picky with who I teach. This is my business. I'm an investor who is protecting the investment of my information. I make money off it and will not give it away for free. If you don't like it - go find your own market.

Nice explanation Tim. Makes sense and I respect your desire to protect your information as it is an asset for you.

Hmm. I guess it is a nice reply, but doesn't answer the question. Tim clearly stated he liked that a person was willing to give addresses. Even Primo_Coach on here says that you should get examples and addressess of possible mentors and their deals, but again Tim is not willing to release that.

Just curious as to the double answer. You respect people that reveal the addresses, but you won't do it yourself. Does that mean you do not respect yourself?

Why the double standard is all I am asking?

Here I sit in my car in front of yet another property I have purchased in NW Indiana. Contractors are here giving me their bids for the rehab work that needs to be done as I await a response on my offers on 2 other properties within 2 blocks of here. I am not ashamed to mention that these are in Gary. I am not afraid of competition because, yes Hacks will come into a market, but over time truth reveals itself about people. A so called " super millionaire" investor will be called out by numerous lawsuits and foreclosures. The market will come back and when I treat people the right way and with respect, they value that over the long term. Which is why I am not concerned. I have my network in place, my businesss systems rolling and it doesn't matter who is in the area, they will screw up and normally make more deals for me in the end.

And yes, all of these homes are REO's so they are listed for anyone to see. I just have the knowledge to see them differently. That is what sets me apart. I also don't charge $3k to go see the area.

Just again, the original question in my mind has yet to be answered, rather just excuses given. I think we should make a poll question out of this. How many people on here feel justified in paying over 3K to be driven to an area where you can see properties that are listed on the MLS and probably carried through to realtor.com?

No personal attacks here, just want to keep things along the lines of what the BP community is all about; openly helping one another to achieve better and attain a higher level of success.

Ok, time to inteject here. I am new to BP and have spent considerable time on other forums over the years. I have dropped a number of REIA events and message boards in favor of business activities.... so don't be surprised if I don't answer replies.

That said, I have done the training and have a few things to say.

1) There is a HUGE difference between vetting a guru where seeing the deals they have done and vetting someone's ability to target a MARKET. The former teaches a TECHNIQUE. The latter is bringing people into a MARKET and showing how they analyze the market and look at the properties. While the former MAY work their techniques anywhere, the same cannot be said for the latter and giving the addresses in those markets would give away said market so the comparison is flawed.

2) Tim signed Non Disclosures with the investors he works with. I know since I was first. There has been comment to secrecy. You could look at it negatively if you like but keep in mind those Non Disclosures work both ways. I keep quiet about where we are doing these deals, how we do them, why the market works, etc because in signing that document, I gave my word. Tim is also keeping his word to the folks that he has taught so please consider what it says about you if you ever ask someone to break THEIR word.

3) Understand the value of information. I have been asked if the price paid was worth it. I respond with an enthusiastic HELL YES. We got in the market and kicked butt creating 6 figures in equity so far this year and now are screening tenants to turn to the cashflow phase.

This is a completely voluntary and UNsolicited opinion based on experience. You can take it for what you wish but remember that since what Tim has offered is tied to analyzing a market... asking for information that would identify that market is, in essence, asking for something for nothing. This is a form of an entitlement mentality and until you get in the game.... you aren't entitled. :wink:

Original member of the Windy City Round Table (we called it WCRT for short back in the day)
FORMER member of WCRT
Current member of the Windy City Round Table and I'm grateful that my business systems include project managers and I don't have to do wait for contractors in favor of building more systems.

I just want to chime in on one point. I have never personally attacked anyone on here. When my opinion was asked for, I give it. I simply asked Tim to clarify a point. He says he likes it when people provide addresses to their investments to lend credibility, but because of NDA's he can't give us that.

Further, in response to the questions that James asked in this thread, I guess Tim can't tell us how many deals he has done, or even what state's they are located in.

Tim, just curious again, why the need to keep that secret?

Also, are you telling me that it was only because of you that people starting going after the Buffalo market? or Hammond, IN market? Only you? You don't think that since you found Buffalo on Ebay, that maybe, just maybe, others could have as well?

I know that I have been doing Hard Money Loans in Gary, Hammond, Lake Station, and East Chicago all in Indiana for about 7 years now. So I guess it hasn't been a secret for at least 7 years to invest in NW Indiana.

Thanks for your concern, but I guess it just shows the knowledge of Gary that you have. Yes areas of GARY are scary, but Miller Beach is not, Gleason area is not. I would rather be there then in areas of Uptown on the North Side of Chicago.

You put it out there that people look better and more credible when they give addresses, but you are overly secretive about it, and I just wanted to know why they should, but you don't have to.

Finally, if a person has to do at least 5 deals for you to accept them as a " student" , do you have to sign a NDA for them before they tell you the 5 deals they have done?

Look, yes, there is no secret that Tim and I know each other personally. I don't think anyone will be shocked when I say that Tim and I will probably NEVER do a deal together. What Tim is failing to mention is that his " SuperConference" is in partnership with an ex partner of mine that took a court order signed by a judge to have him removed from the company. I had put it in the past, and in no way care about it anymore. Just concerned that there was some confusion as to Tim wanting to be secret but telling others to open up and share their background.

Oh and Tim, I believe in your resume area, you failed to mention you also were a loan officer for a while as well.

Just remember, the WCRT that some people are not welcomed at, but that list is less than 15 people over the years has a motto of " Success by Association" which is founded on the principles of " Learn, Grow and Give Back" . So you can see why those that are into Uber-Secrecy would not fit that mold, and there is no big uproar about that. Not all people are meant to get along or fit into certain clubs, niches, etc.

So I want to really focus this thread right back to where it started. Tim regularly posts about his investments. He let it be known that he charges over $3,400 to students to be shown an area where you can buy cheap houses and cashflow. Yet he will not say how many he owns, what state they are in, etc.

Now I will give credit to Tim, whether he admits this or not, a certain club had certain people stating that CASHFLOW is the key to longterm legacy wealth. He did take that and obviously is focusing on that. I think anyone should know there is no " Get Rich quick and EASY" scheme or dream here.

I think that Bigger Pockets is best served if people are presented the facts and then make their own decision. As with anything you find, do your own homework and research, do not take what other's say as the Gospel. I had a really bad accident that left me with some physical ailments, it wasn't until I stopped just accepting the doctor's statements and questioning the treatment, finally locating a new doctor that I got better. I think you can get the analogy.

Very interesting discussion here. Everyone has made some good points. This is exactly what I was talking about in one of my posts regarding education, gurus, boot camps, mentors, seminars, etc.

I've read several of Tim's posts and I think he is knowledgeable in REI, but I am curious about the secrecy aspect. It creates too many questions about your actual background. This thread confirms what I've been saying about taking what you think will work for you (personally) rather than following everything " experienced" REIs tell you. May it be in BP, REIA meetings or other REI sources.

What ever happened to full disclosure? Oh yeah, I forgot an NDA was signed. I've been involved in different start ups (hi-tech) here in the Bay Area and have had to sign NDAs for obvious reasons. I'm just not sure how much secrecy there needs to be in REI? I mean I know where you're coming from in regards to keeping your investment strategy to yourself. Or where you are investing, but you don't have to give us specific areas, why not give us the states where you invest? I mean all RE is local anyway and one city is different from the other even in the same state. So sure I can say I invest in CA, TX, NM, WY, CO or whatever. But I won't say where in particular. Can't you even give us that? Did you sign an NDA with yourself hence you're not able to disclose where you've personally invested?

Just curious...

Within the climate of the Chicago area REIAs - a lot more than you would ever think.....

Again - why didn't Uncle Walt publicly talk about why he was buying swamp land in Florida? Same reason I don't tell people in Chicago about the 20 cents on the dollar, great cashflowing properties within a short commute from the city.

BTW - I am pretty sure I have said multiple time I personally have invested in Illinois and Indiana. No secret there.

Tim,

As I said, I know where you're coming from in regards to keeping things to yourself. I guess what I was saying is you don't need to give specifics. As for the REIA climate in Chicago, I think this applies to most REIAs out there. This is why I don't participate in them. Majority of the people there are newbies or speculators you speak of that once they find out the next " hot spot" they tend to ruin it for the real investors.

This is why I go to my local Rotary club to network and learn from true investors may it be in REI or another industry. In the end REI is pretty much any other business. It's got income and expenses, supply and demand, cashflow. I actually use more principles from successful people outside of REI to run my REI business. So far it's worked for me.

I appreciate your contributions here and have picked up a few things here and there from you. As long as I'm learning...it's all good!