NOUVEAU RICHE-Interesting Review
I found this on another site and was given permission by the author to post it here. I am neutral, have no experience with Nouveau, but found the review extremely interesting.
NOUVEAU RICHE - New Bootcamp/guru - Dolf
There's a new kid on the block in the world of RE Guru's known as Nouveau Riche. This group sells exclusively products from Dolf de Roos (one of Robert Kiyosaki's "Mentors"). They are springing up a lot in Utah and Arizona, as well as several other countries (Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and England primarily). If you haven't heard about them yet, I imagine that you will in the future. I wanted to share my experience with them with anyone that might be contemplating joining their organization.
Disclaimers
I AM IN NO WAY AFFILIATED, SELLING, PROMOTING, OR REPRESENTING NOUVEAU RICHE! (Read on and you'll Believe me!) My experiences were in March of 2003. The company was started in November 2002. Perhaps the company is more mature and efficient now. That said, some of my information might be out of date. Additionally, I'm going to boil this down so that you can read it in one sitting. I could write a lot more. Let me know if you want me to expand on any particular point. I appologize for the length of this post, but hope that it provides someone with information they're looking for.
My Experience
I've enjoyed going to some of the 3 Hour "Free RE" seminars that pop up at hotels where they get you there and wet your appetite and try to sell their seminars (after you go to 3 or 4 you start to laugh at how much alike they all are). It opens my eyes to what other guru's & groups are all about. I meet people and learn a thing or two. With Nouveau Riche I was initially impressed. I was an unemployed RE Investor in the making. I though it could be a good thing to get involved with so I could continue learning about RE, network, teach others about RE, and make some money in the process while I was trying to invest. I went to multiple meetings (3 I think), went to lunch with about 14 of them, went to one of their houses and met with 3 of them, and spent many hours on the phone and after meetings chatting with various members of the organization. Additionally, I knew a couple of them from other connections. I bought the lowest package deal (and returned it), and I seriously considered joining the group, but did not. Here are my reasons.
Overview
There are 3 packages that you can pay for and join in with. The first is about $3500, the second is around $6,000, and the third is $7,000 (these are the prices if you buy them all together. I believe they're more expensive if you buy them separately. These are estimates, but the total cost is $16,000 for all three). Any time you buy any one of these, your "Friend" who sold it to you keeps 70% of the COST of the product (which is negotiable, but they won't tell you that) Note: I've heard that they've rearranged their pricing so the lowest one is cheaper, but they're all still about $16K. If you join and sell NR, your "sponsor" makes a profit on your purchase and your next two. Their motto is "Buy one, Sell two".
-Package #1. $3500. Includes: REMS (Real Estate Management Software)
If you've never used anything else, you'll think it's great. If you've used ANYTHING else, you'll hate it. I found it cumbersome, non-conforming, and counterintuitive (not to mention very expensive compared to other things out there).
REPS (Real Estate Purchase Software
(see REMS). I had about the same feeling. You can get spreadsheets from realtors that do the same thing. Heck, I made my own. It's not rocket science; it's a few equations (only mine does more!). If you know how to do a dozen or so equations in Excel you can do it yourself (BTW, I didn't know anything about excel when I started to make mine).
CD's
You get 12 audio CD's of Dolf giving one of his seminars. After I listened to the CD's I didn't think it was worth paying to go to hear him speak (more on that later).
Books
They tossed in a few de Roos's books that you can get at any bookstore as fillers. $30 worth or so.
Seminar
Included was a 2 day seminar (You have to pay all expenses,travel, air, etc) that was 6 months away. (but only a 3 day return policy)
Package #2. $6,000. Includes:
3 Day Seminar
(see above)
Package #3. $7000. Includes:
5 Day Seminar
(See Above).
With all of the products you receive a weekly newsletter from Dolf (kind of what you would read from Carleton Sheets). There are also world wide teleconferences where everyone could participate, and local groups. The worldwide teleconferences were interesting. Everyone was from Utah, Phoenix, or Australia. (Keep in mind, this was when the company was still fairly small and new). One of two things would happen. We'd end up talking about specific neighborhoods in phoenix (that's great if you're in phoenix, but what if you're in New York,..or Mexico) or the moderator would say "You need to ask your lawyer/accountant that question" because the info was way too generic. Most questions were given about one minute of consideration. I can only imagine how they'll be once they've got people on their from 10 countries and all over the USA. As for the local groups, I already told you who was running them. I asked when they met, for how long, where at, what they discussed, etc. Everything was answered like "we haven't exactly decided..". bottom line, there hadn't been any local RE educational meetings, only recruiting meetings (which they'd had a ton of).
Seminars
In two days they claimed that they would teach you all about real estate so you could run out and do it. Additionally they were going to teach you how to do it many different ways and many different techniques. The most useful thing he teaches is "look at 100 properties". If you do that with ANYTHING you'll learn the market (cars, boats, houses, multi's etc). They must cater to the lowest common denominator (i.e., stupidest person in the audience) and speak in generalities because after all they have everyone from high school dropouts who put the $16K on a credit card to doctors and MBA's. Fluffy stories that tell you to make your money when you buy, buy properties and then change them (rent them, divide them, etc), look at 100 properties, etc. Additionally they talk about how to take advantage of global RE fluctuations and buy properties in China, Argentina, and Mexico. If you can't afford to leave your job, travel to china, hire others to do it for you, you don't know how to invest in your back yard, and you don't know Chinese, then Chinese Real Estate is not for you...At least not yet. There are great opportunities outside of the USA, but you've got more things to learn and over come as you get into international real estate.
High Pressure Sales
During that time, I was negotiating two real estate deals that would have taken up most of the capital I had in closing costs, appraisals, inspections, deferred maintenance, etc. Across the board I was encouraged by the Nouveau Riche reps to spend ALL of my savings on the seminars and products (that I would not gone to for about 7 months) rather than use it to secure 2 profitable real estate projects. Interesting attitude from a company that encourages you to buy real estate. One of those was a 24 unit apartment building which I now own.
Selling To Others
They encouraged me to make a list of 200 people who I could contact and invite them to explore the product. I did this. After I had looked across the list of names of 200 friends and family, there were only 3 of them that I felt like I could sell this to without feeling like a weasel, draining their pocketbooks, encouraging them to take on debt, deceiving them, and hoping that they wouldn't resent me for talking them into something that is $16,000 when most of the same information is available for cheap or free. Bottom line, I didn't believe it was worth that. Additionally I knew that $11,000 of that $16K would be going into my pocket. I know that other people have margins to make, but other products are not that expensive, nor do they have those margins.
Experience
Most of the people in NR had very little RE experience. Those who did, had it before they became involved. They would say that they were going to host the meetings and teach you about RE. Most of the ones that DID have RE had it because they'd made a killing selling NR to others and they bought RE conventionally with that money, often times paying cash for the properties. Most have no idea how to buy properties creatively.
Pyramid
It is NOT a Pyramid scheme by definition. It is Legal. That said, it looks and feels a lot like one. I've heard them tell people "you'll make so much money selling this that you can buy all the RE you want". There's something seriously wrong with this picture. I won't go into the definition of a pyramid scheme, but it does feel like it. Legally, there has to be an inexpensive way to get into any MLM (which they claim they're not, but they are. Just a shallow one). It's usually between $45 and $100. For NR it's $75. When I finally decided that I'd be interested in joining to see how it goes, they wouldn't let me join for $75. I told them they had to by law. They retaliated by saying that they'd let me, but that there would be NO support for me at all until I paid at least the $3500 to "show my commitment". I responded by saying "What motivation do you have to help and support me if you've already been paid" to which they had no good response other than "I wasn't committed". The bottom line is that they're more interested in recruiting (and forcing their recruits to buy product) than actually selling their product.
Learning Curve
Now that you've paid your $16K, you STILL have to figure out how to buy RE. You're not trading money for knowledge. Ron LeGrand will have seminars that are several days long where he teaches short sales, and ONLY short sales. I know many people, who have paid a lot for their education, but they walk out, and they pocket $20K on their first deal. He gives them the forms, the strategies, the equations, the words to use, etc. He trains you very specifically how to do a very narrowly-focused, very profitable transaction. NR does no such thing. NR students will still be found on TCI, libraries, and bookstores trying to figure it out.
Opportunity Costs
By now you know that I don't think their product is worth what they ask. What is the opportunity cost (what you could have done) with the $16,000. Look at it this way. If you were to open a separate checking account, how long would it take you to stash away an extra $16K. Most people (with say a $32K/year income) would be doing really well if they could stash away an extra $5K a year after all expenses, taxes, contributions, retirement, etc. That's 3 years of discretionary income. Or they could quit their job, move in with mom and dad, and do nothing but read library books, RE websites, and talk with people and begin to learn the business.
Sharing
One of the biggest turn-offs was the attitude towards sharing information with other investors. They treat RE techniques like they're responsible for protecting the ancient secrets (such as buy low, sell high, rehab, buy distressed properties, lease options, etc) that are theirs to protect and hand down only to chosen individuals. (Chosen = "paid thousands of dollars). If you ask them a question, they're response is something like "You ought to come to one of our meetings to find out more about our organization." Interestingly enough, they can be found at other meetings asking questions and trying to learn from others. One-way vacuum. It's very hypocritical in my opinion.
Insiders
They claim to provide strategic partnerships. I've personally spoken with two of their "partners". Both receive referrals and commissions of some sort from the NR members/organization when they work with them. Both are extremely knowledgeable about RE. Neither one is impressed with NR. One helps them find properties. They have a waiting list of several hundred buyers (NR students) for their name to get to the top of a list so that they can spring onto an opportunity (often a SFR in an area most investors run from at about 85% LTV). (I also know one of the guys that provides them with properties. ANYONE can go to him and get the same deal any time, and without waiting on a list! In any case, they only have half a dozen properties per month come up. That list is only getting longer.
Other Opinions
I'll put it this way. 100% of the investors that I know, respect, and trust their opinions don't like NR. They'll roll their eyes or laugh hysterically at best or get angry and disgusted at worst. The only people who I've heard say good things about them were those who were involved and those who were new to RE.
In their Defense
I do have a handful of good things that I can say about them. In recent months I've talked to a few people who are NR students say some good things about NR. This could be to save their ego or it could be because they genuinely feel that way. I thought the people involved were fun to be with and associate with. Additionally I think that there are people who NEED to pay $16K to get a fire under their pants and get going in RE. If they start buying one SFR per year at 95% LTV and do so for the rest of their life, but wouldn't have without NR, then I suppose that it was money well spent. For if they hadn't made the financial commitment, nothing would have happened. Additionally, from a business standpoint, I guess I've got to have a bit of respect for someone who can talk people into paying $16K (putting $11K in their pocket) for 10 days of seminars, 12 CD's, a couple of books, and some mediocre software.
Conclusion
Recently our local RE group received a letter from an individual who was about to join NR when she found our group. She indicated that ours was much more informative when it came to learning about real estate (as opposed to recruiting).
As for the boot camps, I am very opposed to bad RE "boot camps, or the ones that you pay $3000 for and half of the time is spent explaining to you why you need to spend $10,000 for the next one. Many are simply motivational hype, but no training. That said, there are some great ones out there that will help you stagger through your first deal, do better on your second, and have it down pat by your third (more or less anyways). I do not feel that this is one of them. Your time and money are extremely valuable. Spend them both wisely. $16K is a new car, a down payment on a house, 4 nice, exotic vacations, consumer debt elimination. Most people think long and hard about spending that kind of money on any one of those things listed. Do the same with the RE packages that you are considering.
Added: January 12th 2004
Reviewer: hibby76
Score:
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