{"id":108988,"date":"2019-03-21T00:02:46","date_gmt":"2019-03-21T06:02:46","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/?p=108988"},"modified":"2023-02-09T23:04:34","modified_gmt":"2023-02-10T06:04:34","slug":"biggerpockets-podcast-322","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/biggerpockets-podcast-322","title":{"rendered":"3 Things Every Leader MUST Do to Scale with Ben Kinney"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Today\u2019s guest grew up poor, living in a cabin without power or running water. But now he controls millions of dollars in real estate, owns several companies, and leads one of the country\u2019s top-producing sales teams.<\/p>\n<p>How did <strong>Ben Kinney<\/strong> pull that off?<\/p>\n<p>The story involves, of course, hard work and tenacity. It involves a book that shifted his mindset at just the right time. And most importantly, it involves teamwork.<\/p>\n<p>In this episode, Ben lays out the hiring process he used to build a real estate agent business. He talks about how he got used to rejection working as a \u201ccable guy\u201d and shares how YOU can find an off-market deal and <a href=\"\/renewsblog\/2013\/11\/02\/hack-housing-get-paid-live-free\/\" target=\"_blank\">start house hacking<\/a>\u2014without a lot of money out of pocket.<\/p>\n<p>Ben also details the seven goals that influenced his every decision and the three things every leader should do when growing his or her business. (Hint: \u201cinspect what you expect.\u201d)<\/p>\n<p>In the &#8220;Deal Deep Dive&#8221; segment, Ben tells us how he was able to buy a company for a hefty price by controlling the terms of the deal.<\/p>\n<p>He&#8217;s a big-picture guy, who will challenge you to think differently about real estate and business. If you feel held back by tasks you don\u2019t enjoy, listen to this show for practical tips on how to delegate more effectively.<\/p>\n<p>Today&#8217;s episode will inspire you and help you invest more efficiently, so you can do what you love and watch your wealth grow.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/biggerpockets-podcast-real\/id594419649\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Click here<\/a>\u00a0to listen on iTunes.<\/p>\n<h2>Listen to the Podcast Here<\/h2>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https:\/\/playlist.megaphone.fm\/?e=BIGPOC1488377661\" width=\"100%\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<h2>Read the Transcript Here<\/h2>\n<div style=\"overflow-y: scroll; max-height: 400px; background: #eee; padding: 20px; border: 1px solid #ddd;\">\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>This is the BiggerPockets Podcast show 322.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>I think there\u2019s hunters in the world and there\u2019s gatherers or farmers. I\u2019m a hunter. You need to set me up to kill something and then somebody else needs to process it so I can go kill something else. Well immediately by doing that I went from 24 transactions to 84 transactions. That took me from 150 or $200,000 a year to $500,000 a year in income.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>You&#8217;re listening to a BiggerPockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors, large and small. If you&#8217;re here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you&#8217;re in the right place. Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com; your home for real estate investing online.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> What\u2019s going on everyone, this is Brandon Turner, host of the BiggerPockets Podcast, here with the Man in Black Mr. David Greene. How are you doing buddy?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> I\u2019m doing fantastic, man I\u2019m actually jazzed. We did one of the better or best podcast episodes I think I\u2019ve heard in a really long time. I mean every time I listen to this guy speak I walk away with inspiration and I think the listeners are going to have the same experience today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah I totally agree. In fact I know I say probably like all the time, but this is one of my favourite like top three of all time BiggerPockets podcasts episodes that we\u2019ve ever recorded. Just like really you know how a book hits you in the right spot, today\u2019s whole interview hit me in the exact spot I needed to hear today. I\u2019ve been going through a lot of like thinking and planning envisioning.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And anyway I actually flew back from the best ever conference in Denver just last week which this now come out like in the future. But anyway back when we were recording this last week and on the plane ride back to Maui it was like a seven hour plane ride, I spent the entire thing just writing up this detailed vision of where I want to see my real estate investing business go in the future.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Because for a little now I\u2019ve just kind of been hanging on like resting on my lorals a little bit, got my almost hundred units and I\u2019ve been feeling pretty good about it. But I don\u2019t know I just had like an epiphany and I\u2019m actually looking forward to sharing it here in the near future with all of you on the podcast.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We\u2019ll talk more about that but I\u2019m still putting finishing touches on where I\u2019m going. But anyway today\u2019s episode, enough about me though. Let\u2019s get to today\u2019s show but before we introduce you to Ben our guest today, let\u2019s hear today\u2019s quick tip.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Right today\u2019s quick tips, is really simple, look in your network right now, look around you the people that you know and who\u2019s like the highest talented person you know? Talk to them, get to know them and ask them who are the talented people they know. And it\u2019s one thing Ben talks about today, so much of success in any business is about who you know, who you can bring into your organisation, who can help you with stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019m not saying you have to have fulltime employee right now but start building those connections, that networking. Start talking to people immediately because it\u2019s the talent that you bring into your organisation that\u2019s going to define whether or not you succeed or fail. So start building those relationships right now and it\u2019s going to help you out here, one two three five years in the future. That is your quick tip.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> And if you live near me and you want to do that, come to my meetup where you can meet people that you can start putting this into play. I say this because I really feel when this episode is done, people are going to feel like their mind was blown. And I don\u2019t want that to pass and you don\u2019t take advantage of it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So if you walk away like, \u201cWow I need to make some changes,\u201d get yourself plugged into a group of people, do what Brandon said. Reach out, talk to people so that you can kind of take that and create momentum that you keep going with it. It wasn\u2019t just a momentary experience that hit you and then passed and you fell back into your old pattern.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019s so good. Alright so with that, let\u2019s hear from today\u2019s show sponsor.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Our sponsor this week is a company a lot of you have been talking about on the forums called Roofstock. Roofstock\u00a0is the #1 marketplace for buying and selling single-family rental homes. Their marketplace of cash flowing rental properties makes it easy to invest in income producing real estate across the U.S. <\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>They connect you with vetted local property managers, and all properties are backed by their industry leading Roofstock guarantee. So you can invest remotely with confidence. Why wait any longer to begin building your passive income stream? <\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Roofstock makes it easy to become a rental property investor and start you on the path to financial independence. To sign up for a free account and start browsing cash flowing rental homes, visit roofstock.com\/biggerpockets. That\u2019s Roofstock, R-O-O-F-S-T-O-C-K.com\/biggerpockets. Create your free account to get started at roofstock.com\/biggerpockets today.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Alright, let\u2019s get to today\u2019s show. Of course if you have not yet left us a rating or review in iTunes it would really help us out a lot so please do so. Or if you\u2019re listening to us on Stitcher or whatever just go leave a rating and\/or review for us, so that people know the show is good. If you\u2019re watching us on YouTube be sure to click that thumbs up. It helps us out a lot. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And last thing I\u2019ll say too, you can follow us on Facebook at BiggerPockets, just go follow us on Facebook. I know there\u2019s like a quarter million people listening to every episode of the show but we only like 150,000 followers on Facebook, which means there\u2019s 100,000 of you who are not following us on Facebook, or maybe you don\u2019t have a Facebook. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">It\u2019s probably not a bad thing. Alright, let\u2019s get to today\u2019s show. Today\u2019s guest is Ben Kinney. This is somebody who David Greene has been gushing about for years how I need to meet this guy, I need to talk to him. David\u2019s got like this incredible man crush on Ben Kinney and we have him on the show today. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Ben is a real estate agent, a real estate investor, a business owner and one of the smartest people I\u2019ve ever known. I mean like it\u2019s so clear today. He goes through like, and there\u2019s a ton of stuff but make sure you guys listen for his discussion on flipping the triangle, that phrase is going to come up later flipping the triangle. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">He talks about the five areas where he invests his money into, and then he lists his actual seven goals. He lists what his seven goals are towards the end of the show, phenomenal. And he talks about how he decides what to do, the shiny object syndrome he has a total cure for it. So listen for that later in today\u2019s show. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And again if you love this show make sure you share it with somebody that you think could benefit from it. Again he\u2019s got very powerful stories. So without further ado I\u2019m going to let you hear his story, let\u2019s get to the interview with Ben Kinney. Alright Ben, welcome to the BiggerPockets Podcast. It is really good to have you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> I\u2019m excited to be here thanks for hosting me today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah this should be fun. So I hear your name a lot, I mean I\u2019m not even a real estate agent but I hear your name uttered in various circles a lot. So for years I\u2019ve known kind of a little bit about you, we were in similar areas. But today I want to dive into your story then kind of figure out actually who is Ben Kinney and what\u2019s kind of your background.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So why do we start at the very beginning? I mean tell us about who you are, where do you come from and kind of walk into your journey of getting into real estate in the beginning.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Sure. Well the kind of quick and simple story around that is my parents separated as pretty young age I think I was two or three. And a kind of a weird situation back then, probably today it\u2019s even\u2026 my dad took me at two or three years old and my mum took my sister. And my sister had a rough childhood too, she went into the single ride trailer with lots of drugs and that kind of stuff. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And my dad took me up into this area called Oso Washington I don\u2019t know if you ever heard of that Brandon.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> I\u2019ve not heard of that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> But it\u2019s where that big landslide was in Washington State a couple years ago that wiped out that community.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> We were in a cabin that was about 270sqft, half of it was filled with kind of debris and boxes and stuff. And my dad and we slept in the other half, there was an outhouse and a wood stove. And we cooked on the wood stove when we didn\u2019t have power and we didn\u2019t have indoor water.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Wow.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> True story. It was about 100 yards to the outhouse and if I had to go the bathroom in the middle of the night, I\u2019d run there because was still kind of scared of the dark. I\u2019m probably still scared of the dark today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah I understand. I still ran to the bathroom.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah right. We relied on the food bank, it was a small cabin that was rented we didn\u2019t even own. My dad had broken this couch in half and I slept on one side of the couch and he slept on the other. The adverse was every other week I went to mum\u2019s and by seven or eight I had witnessed my first heroin overdose.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Mum used to a lot of drugs, I slept on her lap and a lot of alcohol and those sort of situations. And I say that but my mum was a hard worker, she was janitor during the day and a waitress at night. And she did everything she could with the gifts that she was given. But she went through her own bad childhood and I think you see that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I think that\u2019s why I have such a passion towards money, is my mum was abused sexually and physically and emotionally from a very young age. And she used drugs to cope with that. Well over time, I kind of adopted this idea that I wanted to break the cycle of poverty for myself and for my future generations and for as many other people as I can.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So at a very young age, I decided to chase money, I thought I was going to be a school teacher because I love teaching and I love kids, that didn\u2019t pay enough money. So I started going after whatever would pay me the most and I started into being a cable guy and then selling cable TV which gave me the gift of real estate.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I knocked on probably 40,000 and probably cold called a quarter million people, which means I had no fear. I\u2019ve been chased by dogs and swung at and all that kind of stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> I actually think that\u2019s probably one of the most valuable skills a real estate investor or an agent can have is that ability to go after something knowing that nine times out of 10 or 99 times out of 100 you\u2019re going to get a no, you\u2019re going to get rejected. But it\u2019s that process that if we keep with it that you generally find success. So how did you get from cable to real estate?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019s an interesting story. I met this lady friend and she called in a trouble call for her cable TV it wasn\u2019t working, so they sent me out there. And I walked in and fixed her cable and started talking to her. And she was like, \u201cI just bought this place,\u201d and I said, \u201cOh it\u2019s a cute condo.\u201d And she said it was not a condo it\u2019s a duplex.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I said, \u201cWell what\u2019s the difference?\u201d she said, \u201cWell I own both sides.\u201d And I said, \u201cWell why didn\u2019t you just buy a house?\u201d and she said, \u201cWell the neighbours they cover my entire mortgage,\u201d and I\u2019m not a super educated bright kid. I sat back for a second and I thought, \u201cThis lady lives for free.\u201d Yeah not only does she own real estate which my family had never done, she lived for free. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I thought that was the greatest thing I\u2019d ever heard. So I went out and I talked to a loan officer and he said I need $11,500 so I sold a couple things, and worked a little harder and saved up $11,500 and I got me prequel for 230 or 235 whatever it was. And then I found a real estate agent. And I told the real estate agent I want to buy a two-plex and I want the free living deal.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And he showed me one but it was too expensive and then he started showing me condos and then the houses but he didn\u2019t understand that I wanted the free deal. So I just started driving around and writing down addresses of duplexes that I liked. And I went to the assessors\u2019 website and started sorting through there and finding out-of-area owners. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">People that have the tax forwarding address out of state. And I just tracked them down, back then I think it was White Pages or whatever it was called. And I called this person and said, \u201cI want to buy your duplex.\u201d And they said, \u201cWell we\u2019ve considered selling it.\u201d And I said, \u201cOkay.\u201d But I called my agent back and said, \u201cHey agent I want to buy this duplex, will you make an offer for 228?\u201d and he said that\u2019s too low it\u2019s a waste of time. I said okay, hang up the phone.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I only one other agent and her name was Catherine and she was dating a guy that worked at the cable company with me and she lived three or four counties south towards Everett\u2026 And I called her and said I want to make an offer, here\u2019s the person\u2019s name and phone number and they already said they\u2019d sell and here\u2019s the address and here\u2019s the place.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">She makes the offer and they accepted it no-counter. So I got this duplex for 228, my mortgage was $1,210, and the neighbours next door paid $1,200. So I got my almost free, I had to pay $10 a month. And the bonus was once I moved in I realized there was three college girls on the other side of the duplex, which was super cool. I\u2019d never imagined that being an option.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> It\u2019s not a bad ROI on $10.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s cool.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> That agent who\u2019d helped me Catherine, about 2003\/2004 her closing gift was not a\u2026 loose gift card, it wasn\u2019t a basket, she gave me Gary Keller\u2019s book The Millionaire Real Estate Agent. And I don\u2019t know if that was the only book I\u2019ve ever read. I haven\u2019t read a whole lot of books in my life to be honest.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I read it and I didn\u2019t understand it because I hadn\u2019t read Cash Flow Quadrants or Rich Dad Poor Dad or anything like that yet. But what it said was you could own your own business. I\u2019d been laid off two times in the cable company I was laid off by my people a couple other times. My joke I get canned more than tuna compressed.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Man, because they lay us off all the time. And I just thought you know I don\u2019t want to wake up like my boss that had been there for 50 years and then walk in one day and they lay you off. And so I just decided to get my real estate license and I ended up at Keller Williams because Gary and Jay wrote the book called The Millionaire Real Estate Agent and I was going to follow that plan. And that was about 2004 I think.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s cool. Okay so I want to touch on something here. We talk about this a little bit lately on the show and I even posted on my Instagram the other day just this quote from Tony Robbins about modelling. About seeing what other people are doing and rather than just reinventing the wheel you just model what they\u2019re doing and it\u2019ll probably work out pretty similar.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And David just mentioned that he\u2019s modelling your business and then you just mentioned how you are just modelling what they had put in their book. I just think that\u2019s something that a lot of people don\u2019t think about is like why don\u2019t I just see what\u2019s already working and go do that? Have you found that trait to be like common throughout your life or are you a little bit more of a trailblazer figuring out your own thing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> The word I hate the most is when people call me an entrepreneur. And the reason is because 98% of entrepreneurs fail in their business. And I never wanted to be associated with anything that had a 98% failure rate, right. That was like my dating record. I want to be associated with something that had 80 or 90% success rate, right. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I never liked entrepreneurs. I wrote a message from John Maxwell once that said: <i>Systems make the ordinary extraordinary.<\/i> And I consider myself a pretty just ordinary dude, a cable guy turned real estate guy. But I\u2019m just simple. And one of the beauties in our businesses today is I believe that people complicate things to justify their inactions.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And they come up with all these spreadsheet and odd chats and big gigantic plans and then they never do anything with it because it\u2019s so complicated they don\u2019t know where to start. So I just adopted a plan that I should be able to explain anything I\u2019m going to do on a single piece of paper with a sharpie.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And in a perfect world I would have gotten that info from somebody else. I would have already modelled and maybe I change it 20% but 80% is proven that kind of answers your question there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019s exactly what I was thinking. I mean like I think of everything I\u2019ve ever succeeded at like in life, I mean like the fact that we\u2019re on this podcast right now is because I looked at a guy named Pat Flynn who has a podcast on entrepreneurship, right. And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell Pat\u2019s successful maybe I\u2019ll just copy exactly what he\u2019s doing.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So we just modelled our show after Pat and after the real estate radio guys which is another real estate show. I like their show it was fantastic, I just modelled them. Almost everything I\u2019ve done is just like what\u2019s working for someone else. I mean even like yeah everything pretty much from fitness to business to anything is just what are they doing? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">What are the healthy people eating? What are they doing to work out? And just modelling that. Alright so what happened next? Let\u2019s go through you bought this duplex, you\u2019re house hacking which is what we call it today like house hacking living for free. What came next?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Well I got my real estate license, joined Keller Williams 2004. I got about six sales in my first year that was like a couple of friends just random people. And then by four, five months into it, it was January and I had no pendings left and I started getting a little scared and I went and took a job at a phone company.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I went to the phone company and I went through my training and came back and I got a sales job at the phone company and I still have my real estate license. And I sold one of the bigger accounts that had ever been sold in our department and they called me and they said, \u201cWe can\u2019t pay you on that, it\u2019s too big of an account.\u201d I hit my quota for the next three years.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I did what any other responsible young man would do is I never went back. I didn\u2019t call them and quit, I didn\u2019t return my laptop or my key card, I just never went back. And since I\u2019d already quit the cable company, I\u2019d already quit the phone company and I\u2019m scared of electricity I was like I need to make this real estate thing work, right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I went back and sat down with my broker and she gave me a couple of options. And the options are you work your sphere plan we call those the Brian Buffini by referral stuff but my parents and family were on drugs and alcohol and poor or in prison or that kind of stuff, that wasn\u2019t the option for me. I didn\u2019t the sphere, my friends were buying dirt bikes and trucks not houses.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Or it was to do open houses which were okay or it was just pick up the phone and call and I\u2019d been used to calling my whole life. So I just started picking up the phone and calling. I\u2019d call for sale by owners, notice of default, notice of trustee sales expired listings, whoever I could. And that quickly built the business, to I did about 25 sales that first year.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the Millionaire Real Estate Agent book said the next thing you do is you hire an admin. And you do that so that you can do what I call increase our hourly wage. And I ask myself that question all the time, what is my hourly rate? And I\u2019m always trying to increase my hourly rate by handing it off to somebody else.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Ben thank you for saying that because this is a topic of contention in my friendship with Brandon, that we go over this all the time where he is always doing stuff himself. Like remember the chair for my kid that you put together, and it took you like four and a half hours while we\u2019re in Hawaii like the best place God ever made. And you\u2019re spending it building chairs.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But it\u2019s really hard to do if we\u2019re being honest right because usually if you\u2019re a high producer or a successful person you\u2019re good at doing stuff and it\u2019s because you do it a certain way. And it\u2019s really hard to leverage that to others. But a lot of people don\u2019t understand that they\u2019re not going to be good at certain things that they need to be good at to be successful.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Like whether you use the DISC profile or something else. A lot of our listeners they know they\u2019re really good at analysing properties but they\u2019re terrible at talking to people or maybe vice versa. Can you give some advice for how you overcame that fear of letting go and choosing the right person to hire as your admin or really do anything that you feel like you don\u2019t have to do yourself in the business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> The real reason I hired an admin is I got to 25 sales in a year and that was my ceiling. I could close two in a month. There\u2019s other better agents in the world that can do more but for me that was my ceiling. Because I get caught up in the paperwork and the details and dropping cheques off and calling, I\u2019m not good at that,<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I think there\u2019s hunters in the world and there\u2019s gatherers or farmers, I\u2019m a hunter. You need to set me up to kill something and then somebody else needs to process it so I can go kill something else. Well immediately by doing that, I went from 24 transactions to 84 transactions. And that took me from 150 or $200,000 a year to $500,000 a year in income.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And it\u2019s because I understood the difference between leverage and luxury. Luxury is when you give up an aspect of your role or your job and then you use that time to nap or eat ice cream or watch the Netflix or get high or whatever you do, right. When you take that time and you replace it with something that\u2019s a hired dollar per hour activity, it\u2019s leverage.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So as soon as I gave up those things I was able to get back on the phone and find more deals. And that progressed over time for hiring buyers\u2019 agents and listing agents and so on and then 2008 happened. 2008 was the first time that I understood the difference between poor and broke. I was born poor, poor is something that you\u2019re born into, you\u2019re stuck into, it\u2019s a societal thing or something you can\u2019t control.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Broke is things you do to yourself. And what was happening was I was basing my budgets on future revenues. I was paying bills in my mind with pending cheques and listings instead of closings, right. And you see that with real estate investors and businesses and all types of people.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">They get so optimistic that when one thing shifts or one thing changes, the lose it all. And by September of 2008, all my closings were gone, I went from $500,000 in commission pending to zero. And by October, November, December I was missing mortgage payments in order to keep paying my assistant.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> That\u2019s such a good point to make. And I think a lot of people get stuck in what they\u2019re experiencing right now and they assume that it will always be that way. In 05 and 06 we had the same thing, you had a lot of discount brokerages that would sell a house for $2,000 because houses were selling themselves and everyone was worried that was going to change the real estate game. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then when the recession came they all went away. And right now if you\u2019re paying attention to the overall economy you\u2019re seeing that money is very cheap right now, it\u2019s everywhere. It is very easy to raise money. That\u2019s one of the reasons why multifamily is so frothy everybody is in there. And we all complain, \u201cOh the cap rates are so low,\u201d but no one really asks why.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Well that\u2019s why and you see a lot of other businesses that have a ton of money coming that their investors are giving but they\u2019re not generating a profit, they\u2019re not making money. And I don\u2019t want to name any names but a lot of them are trying to change the way that real estate is sold in the country. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the same goes for investing. There\u2019s companies out there with a ton of money that are spending way too much money on properties because they have it. And it\u2019s easy to get too discouraged as the everyday investor who is like, \u201cMan I can\u2019t find anything that cash flows.\u201d It doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s always going to be that way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I think Ben you\u2019re making a very good point that things change and you learned a valuable lesson but you didn\u2019t let it discourage you. You just said, \u201cOkay how do I prepare for the next time that\u2019s going to happen? How do I adjust my model?\u201d can you share a little bit about those lessons you learned and how you adapted to become more successful when the market got theoretically worse?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah. I sat down with my bank statements and my credit card statements, and I\u2019d been tracking my net worth and by January 2009 my net worth was negative half a million dollars or whatever that number was. I remember walking by this guy on the street and he was asking for quarters and I looked into his thing and he had like 68c in there. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I thought to myself, \u201cThis dude is like 500,068c richer than me today.\u201d And I just kept walking by thinking. But then I\u2019d sit down with my bank statements, my credit card statements and I\u2019d take three highlighters a red, a green and a yellow. And red was what I was going to get rid of right away, and green was something I had to keep to run my business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And yellow was something I wanted to investigate to get cheaper or replace or to see if we could go without. And I just started cutting everything. And I cut it down to as far as I could cut it. And then once you do that you can\u2019t solve your business problems with cutting more expenses once you get down to that point, then you got to double your activities.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I just decided that we\u2019d grind our way out of it. And we got on the phones more, and we did more door knocks, and we did more activities, and we dropped prices on our properties as fast as we could. And we worked our way out of there. The interesting thing was by end of 2009 we had our most profitable and productive year. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I had set aside these reserves and I made a commitment to myself that I\u2019ll never put myself in the situation that I was in 2008 and have that stress and that worry and put my people\u2019s lives in jeopardy. I\u2019m going to keep reserves and I just started building up cash reserves because the market can shift so quick.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You wake up one day and your line of credits are gone and your credit cards are frozen and you\u2019re screwed. And with these reserves, a big evolution in my life happened. And that\u2019s when I woke up one day and the real estate brokerage I was working at had ran out of money. And I had the cash and I made an offer to purchase that first business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I offered to put money in there and to pay them off over a three year period. And I made the payments due every August because that\u2019s when I had the most amount of real estate commissions. And they get their first payment in August and they get another payment the next August over three years. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Well we immediately turned that brokerage around. Cut expenses, increased agent productivity, recruited new agents. And within a year other brokerages were calling us and I started buying real estate brokerages. Some are in our brand that we exist in today and some other ones I folded them in. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But I ended up with six brokerages in Washington State which last year they brought in about $3million in profit. And we gave about three million additionally back to our agents in profiture. But those brokerages in our sales businesses became the foundation for capital for us to do these other investments as we grew up so to speak.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Hey I want to take a break from today\u2019s podcast to invite you to this week\u2019s upcoming webinar, How To Make Your First 5000 a Month Through Real Estate Investing. I mean yeah 5,000 is kind of arbitrary right, it could be three or seven. But my guess is this, five grand a month could change your life. <\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>And that\u2019s the goal of the webinar I\u2019m going to be going through three key strategies for getting there no matter what your financial picture looks like today. Like if you don\u2019t have any deals right now, you don\u2019t have money you don\u2019t have experience, don\u2019t worry about it. Come anyway, just go to biggerpockets.com\/5000webinar. So biggerpockets.com\/5000webinar. See you there.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah so I want to get into that in a second, but I just want to point out a couple of things. One you saw the opportunity, first of all you prepared for the opportunity which I think is smart in today\u2019s market. I mean the economy is really good right now, I mean real estate is really good right now. People are making money etc. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I think this is a good reminder that I won\u2019t always be like it is today. It\u2019s not always going to be like it is today. I mean we\u2019ll have another eventually I mean maybe it won\u2019t as bad as 2008, maybe it will be as bad as 2008, right. So again just a good reminder that just reserves are just vital even when you\u2019re feeling really confident and successful.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But secondly you mentioned that you basically paid these people off over time. This applies to real estate investors and people in any businesses. You\u2019re basically just capitalising in seller financing. You said hey I\u2019ll put a little but down and I\u2019ll just pay you off over time. That\u2019s actually how I bought my first apartment complex the same way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I just paid them off over time. But what\u2019s really cool about it is how you controlled the terms of that deal. You knew that there was a certain time of the year you were going to be better off, you knew that seller financing would work and you knew that you could capitalize on it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I guess three just interesting points there just to point out, that you I guess went about taking advantage of that. I mean I\u2019m curious why would they sell to you? Why didn\u2019t they just turn it around? Why did you have success with turning those brokerages around when they couldn\u2019t?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Well they were in financial trouble and they had gotten to that position because of the way they were running that business. And either they were trying to save themselves by selling real estate so they weren\u2019t focusing on that brokerage. A lot of them took on too much space and they were in bad lease deals.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Which caused me in some situations I bought the assets and not the business because I had to renegotiate out the lease. So I had to move the business if I couldn\u2019t. But they had no choice. One situation they were going to close the business on Monday and I found out on Friday and I jumped on a plane and flew back here and stopped them from closing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Because at that point we lost all the agents which was really the asset in that business. I paid terms for those businesses because back then I didn\u2019t have cash. And a lot of people would have used I don\u2019t have the cash as an excuse to not invest or not have business. I just found a way to do it and from that it gave me cash to do some of these other future deals.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Yeah. So I think something to highlight out of what you\u2019re saying here Ben is that you did a few things that a real estate investor can do just as easily. a) You targeted distress. And I usually talk about there\u2019s three kinds of distress in real estate. You\u2019ve got property distress, personal distress and market distress. So you were in a rough economic time so it\u2019s probably quite a bit of market distress. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then there was some actual like property distress, as in the business itself was not being run right. And just like a good hunter you\u2019re like a cheetah, you smell that blood and you knew right where to go. And you got there, you made the kill and then you probably handed it over to somebody else to figure out okay I need you guys to help me turn this thing around, right. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But that\u2019s why you got a good deal. So for the people that a listening saying, \u201cWell yeah it must be nice if you find a business like that.\u201d But Ben knew people in the industry, he had his eyes and ears out there he was out hunting for something. And when he saw that distress he had an advantage. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Then you were smart enough to do like Brandon said and get it with seller financing so that you didn\u2019t say, \u201cWell I don\u2019t have money I can\u2019t buy a property.\u201d You said, \u201cWell I found a person who doesn\u2019t want to own a property, they\u2019re losing it to the bank, right you said they were going out of business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">They\u2019ll give you a screaming good deal if it\u2019s not a foreclosure. Right, when you find those people that are in some form of distress, you can get a deal. The key though is that you didn\u2019t wait until you saw opportunity to go learn your craft, right. For the people that are saying, \u201cWell there\u2019s no deal so I don\u2019t want to learn how to analyse a property or manage a property or rehab a property.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You\u2019re going to be behind the eight ball when the market does turn and you\u2019ve got the Bens of the world and the Brandons and the Davids who are studying this every day. And when that opportunity is everywhere, we\u2019re a like a highly tuned cheetah that\u2019s going to go take after whatever we want and bring it down.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And that\u2019s why we\u2019re always preaching you got to be prepared because we don\u2019t know when the market is going to correct we just know at some point it will. And when it corrects and people are struggling with holding a job and saving money, there\u2019s a whole new set of problems that come out of it, it\u2019s going to turn around.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I mean I remember in California in 2013, it turned around so fast I literally went from writing like 20% under asking price on every house to 20% over asking price, wouldn\u2019t get the deal done. It was that fast like one spring time and boom it was gone. And that\u2019s why I had to learn long distance investing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So there\u2019s a lot of lessons that we can learn from what you\u2019re doing here and how it does well. What did you end up doing once you started buying the business? And like you said you built the foundation of real estate sales. What was next for you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Well first thing I did is I knew if I bought a real estate brokerage and if I failed at it, that I still knew how to run a real estate business. So I put my own banking and real estate teams in each one of those brokerages. And I did that because I knew if the brokerage had a bad month we could at least close a couple transactions. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And that\u2019s I think really how real estate expansion came into my world is I wanted to prove that I could do my business model from\u2026 and any other city and I might as well do it in another business that I own. That meant that I paid for sales in that location, those sales agents paid a split to the brokerage. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I owned the brokerage and over time I started buying the buildings that those brokerages were in as well. And we had additional services like mortgage and so on. So you ended up getting paid four or five times along that path.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s cool. So you actually started buying the buildings that your properties were renting. Is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah. And I did it because I learned about something that I\u2019m sure you guys talk about often, accelerated depreciation. I had an income issue and I needed to solve my income issue because I didn\u2019t want to give all my income to taxes. And if you buy a commercial real estate you can do accelerated depreciation and then write it off over seven or eight years. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And that reduces my taxable income and it\u2019s much easier to do that in commercial and residential with the notes available. So I started doing that. And I think people buy real estate for three reasons; one appreciation, two would be tax benefits and three would be cash flow. And you buy different types of properties for each one of those three situations, right. And I try to have a diversification of those types of things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Alright so what else have you done? I mean I want to talk a little bit more about the commercial thing too but what else have you done? I mean in terms of investments, you bought some commercial properties, do you own any single families, do you own any multifamily or anything like that as well?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah I own quite a few houses, vacant lots, commercial buildings, ranch in Texas, those sort of things. And I try to buy a property every couple of months or a couple of times a year at least. And I have a full time contractor that\u2019s always remodelling and improving. I don\u2019t believe in flipping properties.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019m in the mind set of building assets over time and real estate is the foundation of my wealth and I want to make sure that that\u2019s secure. So I do that to build assets and keep so I\u2019m a holder not a flipper. And I\u2019m always looking for deals nonstop whether it\u2019s a business I\u2019m buying or real estate or hire. I\u2019m kind of a deal junkie I\u2019m always out there looking for the right one. And I turn down a hundred of them to do one but I\u2019m always looking.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> I love that. And I think it\u2019s interesting to hear that the connections like as you talk about certain things like buying businesses how similar it is to buying houses. And then you mentioned people like deals. It\u2019s almost like business is business no matter what the asset that you\u2019re buying is or that you\u2019re obtaining, which is kind of fascinating.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So how do you balance that with focus right? I mean you bought a ranch, you bought some commercials, some houses, how are you focusing that? Is it because you\u2019ve got all these properties already now you can diversify like that? Or is it just you\u2019ll buy whatever comes across your plate?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> I tend to buy in areas that I want to be or areas that I\u2019m at so locally as much as possible. And I buy those deals because I see something in the property that others don\u2019t see like a duplex that I can turn into condos or a house that I could short-plast something off of.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Or a property that I could get some extra lots or I could add square footage to it. I\u2019m always looking for something that other people don\u2019t know about that property or even that business as well. I\u2019m looking for how do I walk into this situation with instant equity?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Yeah and Brandon and I talk about in today\u2019s market, you don\u2019t find deals you got to make deals and that\u2019s kind of what you\u2019re describing. In a higher end market that\u2019s what you have to do. In a lower market if you have the capital and you have the opportunity you can find the deal pretty easy but you\u2019re not really getting better or learning when you do that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You\u2019re just taking low hanging fruit and if that\u2019s what you\u2019re dependent on well when the market turns around you have nowhere to go. But I think that Brandon to your point, I see this all time when I watch these TV shows the guys come in and take a struggling bar or a restaurant and they turn it around. They\u2019re using the same principles we are.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Somebody owns an asset that they\u2019re not managing well for various different reasons, it could be a lot of stuff. It would be profitable if somebody did something different. Maybe someone recognizes this bar is not doing well because they could be serving food as well or they can be charging more for alcohol if they change their ambience or whatever. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And a more experienced person steps in, buys it, turns it around and makes it profitable. And then if they refinance it which is kind of our BRRR Method that we talk about they can go buy another one, and that\u2019s all Ben\u2019s doing, is he took an industry he understood which is real estate because he could sell houses because he was a cable guy and wasn\u2019t afraid to being told no.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And he learned a little bit more and it gave him opportunity and he took advantage of that, and he learned a little bit more and it gave him opportunity. And now I mean Ben we didn\u2019t really talk about it but you\u2019re either the top or one of the top agents in the entire country. You got expansion teams everywhere.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You\u2019re buying companies like left and right. I mean we\u2019ve kind of focused on your beginning but you\u2019re basically like the second coming of Warren Buffett at this point with what you\u2019re buying, right. But you started from a very small place and you just took advantage of the opportunities that you had. And that is one of the things that\u2019s so inspiring about you, is you didn\u2019t say, \u201cOh I can\u2019t do it, here\u2019s why.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You said, \u201cHow can I do it?\u201d and Brandon loves that too. And everybody listening could do the same thing, right you started with the house hack and that opened doors. You started selling real estate and that opened more doors and you just kept walking through them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> About six years ago we started investing in technology because I believe that technology was going to be the thing that could disrupt my agents and their families in their way of life. And that\u2019s led down an interesting path for us, we\u2019ve just acquired our eight real estate technology company last week. And we have about 150 people that work on our software space.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I think over time, I\u2019ve had this real mind shift on wealth building and I\u2019ll probably be known for buying businesses not real estate because I never talk about my real estate investments or people just don\u2019t hear about it. But when Donald Trump was running for president couple years ago, he was talking about not sharing his taxes or whatever.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And Warren Buffett sent a tweet out or a message out that said here are my taxes I\u2019m willing to share mine. And one my ahas and looking at Warren Buffett\u2019s taxes was that I paid more taxes than him. And I was sitting back here thinking which one of us two guys has more money? And I\u2019m not a fraction of a percent of what Warren Buffett\u2019s worth.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But what he did is I call it Flipping the Triangle. If you were to take a triangle and divide it into four chunk, the vast majority of the world\u2019s triangle looks like this. At the base of the triangle here is salary and hourly, and that\u2019s where they make the majority of their money. They\u2019re exchanging time for dollars.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the reason they hit income caps in their life is because they only have so much time to exchange for dollars. As you move up the triangle you have bonuses and you have profit from the businesses that you\u2019re in. and if you do good in your job maybe you get a bonus or if you do good running your business maybe you have some profit left over.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And that right there maybe that\u2019s 90% of the world and that\u2019s why they have such limits of their income. As you go up to the third piece you have residual incomes, that is money made from work done in the past. Whereas the first two pieces of the triangle are money made for things you\u2019ve done in the present.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Well residual for me is rents above and beyond my mortgage interests. If I do loans, dividends on stocks, profits from businesses that I invested in but I don\u2019t necessarily run myself. And that\u2019s money that comes in every month whether I show up or not. And then at the top of the triangle is assets. And that\u2019s what people have the very least of. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The stats that I think about around that is just the average American who is a renter has a net worth of $5,200, the average homeowner in the United States has a net worth of $238,000. You see the big difference in those two, the net worth is really through real estate for most people. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I wanted to flip the triangle so I wanted to get to the point like Warren Buffet where the majority of his wealth is in assets that are not realized unless he sells his stocks, sells the business, sells the real estate or cashes out. So it can continue to compound and grow and grow. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But when you\u2019re flipping properties or when you\u2019re always taking that money out and moving it somewhere else you end up with that having to be taxed on it. And you give up 40% of your income. So I wanted to flip the triangle and I want my assets to grow and then my residual income to grow. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the things I don\u2019t really care about might be what I do with my actual time. Now that led for me this idea of what\u2019s going to grow fastest. What would be the average cap rate in the US for you guys? I don\u2019t know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Like five and a half or so I\u2019d say right now in the commercial space.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah. And last year the SMP500 if you put money into the SMP500 it may be went up 11% or 13% or whatever. That\u2019s that range, five or 10% that you can grow annually. But all the businesses that I\u2019ve bought, I\u2019ve been able to grow them 40%, 100%, 200%, 150% year over year. And that\u2019s allowed me to have massive compounded growth. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And with that excess income, I take that income and then I buy fixed assets like real estate to be the foundation in case\u2026 hits the fan and I need to survive. I put that money into I call it the five buckets; extra cash reserves, real estate that I\u2019m going to hold, financial instruments like retirements, 401Ks or ways to defer taxes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And businesses that I invest in that other people run and then I save the last bucket which each bucket is 20%, to give away each year to our community specifically around homelessness and hunger. And I take all the excess of those as well from all the businesses and I put them into those buckets so that I can grow my assets not just my income.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019s a fantastic way of looking at it. I think everyone needs to hit that rewind button on their podcast player and go back and listen to the last two minutes again. Because yeah the five bucket thing, the flipped triangle, all that just fantastic. So I want to explore this a little bit more, this idea of buying businesses.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Because again here on the show we typically focus on real estate but there is a benefit to crashing it in business. This is actually one thing I love about real estate is like you can crush it in business somehow whether you hopefully own the business, right. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You can make a ton of money and then dump that into real estate into fixed asset. Why do you do that and do you also I guess why do you do real estate not just the SMP500? Why not just throw everything in the stocks or whatever? Do you diversify? Do you focus mostly on real estate? What\u2019s that look like?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Alright. I think our business whether it- I was talking to David about his real estate business, I think his business should be like a chair. And the more legs to the chair the more stable the chair is. And if you got all of this business from referrals if that went away his business would fall apart. If you got it all from cold calling.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So it\u2019s about having a lot of legs to your chair. Whether you think about our parents that had all their money in their company stock plan, or the person that put all their money into real estate or all into their 401K or all into their business, one little thing could completely disrupt their retirement, their livelihood or their family. And I don\u2019t want that to happen.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019m not going to be in a situation, I\u2019m okay being poor I\u2019m not okay being broke where it\u2019s my fault. So I try to evenly divide that out and I have adopted that for over 10 years now. And in the beginning it was $50 a month that went into each one of those buckets and then it was $200 a month that went into each one of those buckets. And over time it\u2019s grown.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Which means 10 years ago it took me a year or two to save up enough for a down payment on the next property. And then now it can happen every month or every couple months if we choose to do so. But it\u2019s about having that discipline of putting money into those buckets to take care of you and your family.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You can\u2019t just be this individual that\u2019s chasing money because money runs too fast. And you\u2019ll never actually catch it, you\u2019ll wake up having an unsatisfied unhappy life. You need to make sure that you\u2019re doing things to build wealth not just build the number of doors or the number or real estate transactions or whatever those things are. Because that\u2019s a really unfulfilling life to live you\u2019ll wake up unsatisfied all the time.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Well on one hand having several legs on your stool does make it a more safe stool where it\u2019s like a defensive metric. You\u2019re going to lose more difficultly that\u2019s a horrible way to say that. But it\u2019s harder to lose. On the other hand having all these different things working together actually creates a synergy to where you\u2019re more successful with venture F because you have venture G as well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I that that\u2019s something that a lot of people getting started don\u2019t understand that that\u2019s kind of when we talk about the rich getting richer this is why. You actually took a real estate sales business and leveraged that into buying brokerages which leveraged that into bringing deals your way. Then you had this capital that you could then use to invest in technology companies which made it easier to sell more houses, right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the whole ecosystem that you\u2019re building helps all the other little piece, so A) you\u2019re safer and B) it\u2019s easier to grow bigger. And that\u2019s really how smart business people think. Now the problem is once you\u2019ve built that ecosystem you can\u2019t be in everywhere at one time. You\u2019ve got expansion offices here, you\u2019ve got investment properties here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You\u2019ve got companies that you\u2019re buying that you really probably don\u2019t even understand what they\u2019re doing, you don\u2019t need to. You\u2019re the investor. Can you help us understand a little bit about your leadership qualities, what you had to learn, what you had to develop and how you run all these different businesses as just one person?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah so my coach Gary Keller has always been clear with me is that I can do anything I want as long as I start with a person. So he says first who then what. Right so if I want to buy a business, the first question I\u2019m going to ask myself; who do I have that could run it? And if I don\u2019t have that person that would be the very first thing I\u2019d go and do because I do not need another jump.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Well over time you start learning about leadership. And the easy thing to say is I\u2019m not good at managing people or I\u2019m not a very good leader. But I found that nobody is an amazing leader of marginal people. And you end up getting the wrong people on your bus, you look like a crappy leader and you feel like you\u2019re unsuccessful. And I\u2019m not saying they\u2019re bad people. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But if you get the right people for you, you can do anything. And you walk in and everybody thinks you\u2019re a genius leader, truth is we\u2019re just actually pretty good at hiring. And we\u2019re good at hiring because we take the time to look at enough candidates. When you have one candidate that you\u2019re taking through the hiring process, you spend the entire time trying to proof that that\u2019s the best candidate to yourself. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">When you have three candidates, any of which you would say I would any one of these right now in my heart, right you spend the entire process figuring out which candidate is the best candidate. As they say the enemy of great is good or however they say that, right. You can\u2019t settle, you got to make sure that you\u2019re investing that you can balance I like to say love and results.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Meaning that that you could see yourself having that person at your kitchen table for Thanksgiving that you love them and you care about them, which means they got to have integrity. You got to like them you got to like being around them, and they got to get good results. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Any time it\u2019s out of balance between love and results meaning you care a lot about them but they aren\u2019t succeeding in the role, or they succeed a lot in the role but they\u2019re kind of buttholes you end up creating resentment and it doesn\u2019t work. So I look for this balance between love and results in all my hires and then I just let them go do it. And I get back involved if they need me but I tend to step away and just let them succeed.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> So here\u2019s something I struggle with a lot because I\u2019m hiring right now for both internally at BiggerPockets we\u2019re hiring for a number of people that are going to be working with me and the marketing team. But then also I\u2019m looking at my own real estate business looking to hire as well and try to expand the real estate investment side of things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And both of those I get people that apply, right. And you look at their resume and everyone looks good on a resume. I mean everybody looks good on the resume and I talk to them and I get the same thing you just said. I could hire any of these people. Like at a surface level, even just talking to people the first time everyone generally looks pretty good.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019m struggling with that right now, I got five people I\u2019ve talked to that all could probably do the job well. How do I narrow down then like to really know that that\u2019s the one out of the five? Like you say you look at enough people but that\u2019s what I struggle with right now a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Here\u2019s what I do is that I make a list of the 10 or 20 things that you want that person to do in their role. Then I\u2019d organize them one through 10 or one through 20 and then I\u2019d go and I just cross out everything that\u2019s below four. You are hiring for the top four not for the bottom 20. You need to find somebody that hits it out of the park on those top four things your biggest priorities, and don\u2019t worry about the rest of the stuff.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The rest of the stuff anybody can do or you could just knock it down or get an assistant or they figure it out. Always hire to the most important priority. And then compare each person to each other just say, \u201cHey I got three great candidates, how do they stack up?\u201d and we go through this multi-process hiring where we have a screen interview, a face-to face interview.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We go through what\u2019s called a life story where I go back as far as time and I ask them what they\u2019ve done and what they\u2019ve made and what they\u2019re most proud and how do they succeed. And I understand their whole history. And then we go through this process of understanding their goals, what do they want to want to accomplish in the next year, three years, five years?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">To make sure that they can be on that trajectory or they\u2019re thinking big enough or they\u2019d be a good match with us. And then we go through a little bit of behavioural testing to make sure they\u2019re the right behavioural map for the job by giving them a Meyers Briggs or whatever that might be. And you combine all those things into a collection of about eight hours. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And when you\u2019re done with and you\u2019ve done that through a couple of solid people, you\u2019re going to feel real confident about one or two of those people. But when you rush it or do a couple of interviews and then you high five you\u2019re just kind of playing craps and you\u2019re going to get what you get, wherever the dice land.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> I read the other day that 50% of all hires end up being a mistake. Like that manager said that 50% of on average of the people they hire were wrong. Which means that it is just a gamble, it\u2019s just 50\/50. They might be good, they might be bad. And that\u2019s how most people in the world hire.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Sounds like marriages and dating to me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> It does, right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Like if we put a little bit more time and energy into choosing who we spend our time with, I always say that we have three relationship in our life and they\u2019re extremely important. Who we work with, right, who we love and marry and our mattress. And we should spend time and energy choosing all three of those things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> I mean that\u2019s why Drake says I only love my\u2026 because that\u2019s what\u2019s important in life. Yeah as far as people who are wanting the opportunity Ben can you share a little bit about because you\u2019re hiring people all the time, right? So this is an interesting dynamic is that Brandon, I and Ben our frustrations are we can\u2019t find people that can do the job the right way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Well there\u2019s a lot of people out there that are like, \u201cOh I really want this opportunity tell me what I need.\u201d And I\u2019m trying to figure out how you marry those two worlds. Do you have any advice for the people who want the opportunity but aren\u2019t sure what to do in themselves to be good at the role? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then the second part that I wanted to talk to you about was we interviewed Robert Greene and he had mentioned how one of the things that he believes is people don\u2019t change. Like who they\u2019ve been is who they\u2019re going to be, right. So how much do you factor that into your decision making process when you look at somebody\u2019s track record? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Sure. I think highly successful people succeed at something in their life. So what is that track record or success? It could be that they\u2019re number one on band camp, it could be that they\u2019re number one in athletics. And I ask that question when I interview them, what have you been number one at in your life?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And that\u2019s important to me, right. And then I understand that a leader has three fiduciary duties. Number one, to clearly set the standards and expectations for how that person succeeds in their 20%, not the bottom 16 things, in those four things. Number two, to inspect what we expect. To provide a layer of accountability.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And when we first get into business with somebody we meet with them and look at what they\u2019re doing on an hourly or daily basis. And over time they earn the weekly touch and over time they earn the monthly. And over time you really just get together to give the high fives. The number three thing as a fiduciary duty as a leader is to make sure we provide the coaching, training and mentoring that they need to be successful.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And whether we hired somebody to do it or we do it ourselves, if you are not doing those three things, that person\u2019s failure in your business is your fault, it\u2019s not their fault. So I always ask myself before I let somebody go, \u201cDid we do our fiduciary duty?\u201d I take ruining somebody\u2019s lives and putting their family in jeopardy very seriously.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So if it doesn\u2019t work I sit back and say, \u201cDid we set the standards? Did we inspect what we expect? Did we train them? If not we start from scratch on day one and we take them a 306090 process to get them back on track. So before we think that people can\u2019t change I always sit back and say, \u201cWell where is my DNA on that situation? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">What could I have done to make sure that that person was successful? Or in the place that they were before were they given a fair chance? Because I found people that were very unsuccessful in their previous role but when they worked with us they flourished.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah and that attitude is what attracts me to Jocko Willink\u2019s book, which one David that you love Extreme Ownership.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Extreme Ownership.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Right, which is like when somebody is bad, the first question to ask is what have I done wrong or how could I have fixed this or how am I causing this. Because a good portion of the time it is probably that. Like I know when I\u2019ve had bad employees in the past I\u2019ve not set standards, I\u2019ve not inspected what I expect and I\u2019ve not trained them very well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019ve done all three of those things poorly and so it\u2019s no wonder they didn\u2019t work out. And then I feel really bad because now I\u2019m looking back I\u2019m like, \u201cYeah that was totally my bad or that was totally my fault.\u201d Anyway just really good reminder. What were you going to say?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> The first kind of question about how people go and find the opportunities I think is their responsibility to chase what they want in life. And it takes a lot of effort. I\u2019ll give you an example of the reverse of that is I ended up in a situation where I was missing an important person in my company. And it was going to be the technical demise of our world.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the previous month in that particular company I\u2019d lost $430,000, for the month. And I knew that there was a problem. I started off on Monday with a commitment that I was going to find a replacement and I sent over 1000 LinkedIn messages. I made hundreds and hundreds of calls and hundreds of texts. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I finally found a person that was located in another country that was right match, and I flew him and his wife over. And we got them hired in our firm. But it took six days of me only doing that one thing to solve my biggest problem.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And a lot of times why people don\u2019t solve their biggest problems, why they don\u2019t find real estate deals, why they don\u2019t lose weight or whatever that is, is they give 1% effort every day over a long period of time, and it never amounts to anything. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you have a big problem in your life, go fix that problem. Just go jump on it and you only do that until you get it out of the way and then you work on your second problem. So I\u2019d put that back on the person that if you want to change your life, make that the only thing you focus on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon: <\/b>That\u2019s so good. I gave a speech last week at a conference and I talked about this analogy of building a tower. Let\u2019s say you had to build a tower out of little blocks, the little toy Jenga blocks. And success was out like three feet high, right or in this case solving your problem is like three feet high.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So you start working on one little tower and then you go start working on another tower and then another tower and you\u2019re adding one block to each tower. And pretty soon you got 30 towers but none of them ever get higher than six inches. Where if you just focused all your effort on building that one tower, I just got to fix this as the most important tower.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And that works for both problems like you\u2019re talking about problems and for solutions, right. This is the most important thing in my life if I can just get this level I\u2019ll be alright. But instead people are like, \u201cI want to be a real estate agent,\u201d and then two weeks later they\u2019re like, \u201cI really want to sell Tupperware on MLM,\u201d then two weeks later they want to flip houses because they listened to a podcast on that. And they\u2019re building 50 towers at one time and never get there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So before we move on to the Deep Dive, do you have any advice on how people can know what is that thing that helps them identify what is the most important problem to focus on or what is the most important thing they can do? I mean when there\u2019s a million things that a person can do, how do you focus?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> I would hate for somebody to hear this call and hear that my message is do a bunch of things and get a bunch of businesses and that sort of thing because that\u2019s not really how I believe. I believe in building a business to its maximum potential and replacing yourself with a great and amazing hire that\u2019s proven and then taking that excess time to do something.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And this a 15 year journey for me I had three sales teams up until four years ago. Now I have 22. It\u2019s because I put 11 years into building the foundation and building the systems and building the models and proving that it was profitable before I did that. So we\u2019re careful we don\u2019t do too many things at once. You do one thing, you get it going as profitable and then you add another thing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I would hate for that message to get mixed up. But back to your question Brandon, what we do should provide a clear path to our business, financial, relationship, health, personal and spiritual goals. And I\u2019ve had mine written down for many years and I look at them often and I ask myself the question, \u201cIs what I\u2019m doing now setting myself up on a path to accomplish those goals?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I found a lot of time that people make those choices because they aren\u2019t clear on where they\u2019re actually going. So I want to share my goals with you guys because it\u2019s on my phone at all times. Number one I want to be leveraged. I want to hire somebody for all the things that I do not enjoy, which means I had to make a list of what other things I enjoy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I enjoy negotiating deals, recruiting talent, creating things and making them a reality and coaching training and mentoring. So I built my life around doing those things and everything else I hire somebody for. Number two, security, I want to have a certain amount saved in the bank in case the zombie apocalypse or economic whatever the thing might be.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Number three I want a net worth of a certain amount of money and it\u2019s a big number. Four, I\u2019d like to be married but only once, five I\u2019d like legacy, I want to create things that I\u2019ll be remembered for. Six I want to help 10 people become millionaires and seven is I want to donate a minimum of one million a year back to our communities that we operate in.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I ask myself the question when somebody says, \u201cHey should you go do this opportunity or should I do this?\u201d I just open up my goal sheet and say, \u201cIs that something I\u2019d enjoy? Is it going to affect my savings? Is it going to increase my net worth? Is it going to affect my ability to have a healthy relationship? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Is it going to be something I\u2019m going to be remembered for? Or is it a park shop or a bar? That might make money but it\u2019s not what I want to be remembered for so I\u2019m not going to do that. Is it going to help somebody become a millionaire and do I love them enough to want to do that? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And is it going to affect my ability to give? And if it doesn\u2019t hit one of those things, I bail out. So it\u2019s important that they have clarity what they\u2019re actually trying to accomplish. And with that, it should help them to make better decisions.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That is so good, fantastic. I don\u2019t have anything to add to that. So I\u2019m just going to shift us and turn us over to the next part of our show which we call our Deep Dive. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Alright guys we love our sponsors because they help us do this show, but also because they really help our BiggerPockets members. I think I mentioned how SimpliSafe got a few mentions on the forums, well we actually got one customer on the line to ask him what he thinks of the product. Jim from Pittsburgh take it away.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>In a lot of neighbourhoods it really doesn\u2019t matter if you leave tools in a property. Just having that renovation in progress there is like hanging a big sign outside that says Break In. SimpliSafe stops that kind of thing immediately. <\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>If you want to put the system in quickly, you could use the sticky tape locks provided. If you know it\u2019s going to be in place for a while like in a rehab with a lot of guys going in and out banging things and moving things around, you screw the components in with the screws provided. You know it\u2019s really secure.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Well there you have it, a real life example. SimpliSafe gives you 24\/7 monitoring for just $15 a month. Sign up for a 60-day risk free trial and free shipping with full returns if you\u2019re not 100% satisfied. So try it today, simplisafe.com\/pockets so they know that we sent you. That\u2019s SimpliSafe S-I-M-P-L-I- safe.com\/pockets.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Alright this is the BiggerPockets Deep Dive. It\u2019s the part of the show where we dive into one particular deal that our guest is working on. So I hear from Kevin our producer that you\u2019ve got a little bit different style of a deal today for today\u2019s deal Deep Dive. What are we going to be talking about today before we jump into the questions?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Well what I think is interesting about deals is that deals are all about terms, and terms for real estate or terms for businesses are about the same. So I\u2019m just going to talk about a business or two that we\u2019ve purchased in the past and how we went around structuring that deal. Because when we went into those maybe we didn\u2019t have the capital to even do it but then we figured out a path into making that happen, if that makes sense.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> It does.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Yes so. This specific deal, what6 kind of deal was it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> So this was an opportunity for us to buy a software company. And when I met with the individual I said, \u201cAre you will to sell this company?\u201d and I he said, \u201cNo I don\u2019t think I would.\u201d And I said, \u201cWell why wouldn\u2019t you?\u201d and he said, \u201cI haven\u2019t been able to get the amount of money that I want.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And he gave an amount of money let\u2019s say it was a million dollars. And I said, \u201cOkay, can I ask you another question?\u201d and he said yeah. And I said, \u201cWell what is it about that million dollars that\u2019s important to you? And he said, \u201cIt\u2019s that I think I need that much money to replace the income that I get from this business to take care of me and my family until I die or pass away.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I said, \u201cI don\u2019t want to be morbid or nothing but how long do you think that is? How many years do you need?\u201d and he was quite an older gentleman and he said, \u201cI need at least 10 more years of income.\u201d And I said, \u201cSo it\u2019s not the million dollars at all that matters to you, it\u2019s a certain amount of net income for you.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I said, \u201cBut what have you been making currently?\u201d and he gave me a number, it wasn\u2019t a large amount of money let\u2019s say it was $50,000. And I said, \u201cHow about instead of a million dollars, what if I just gave you $50,000 a year paid in monthly payments over the next 10 or 12 years? And would you go home tonight and talk to your wife about that?\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019ll personally guarantee it that you get that income, you don\u2019t have to work anymore, you don\u2019t have to show up you get to enjoy these 10 years of your life and you get to retire.\u201d And he came back and he said, \u201cYou know what, that would work.\u201d For me I looked at the business and said the business was already making that much in net income.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If I added what I do, we would easily replace that and I just made that a line item on the budget was paying the previous guy out. So we bought that business for zero down, paid him over a 10 year period and it was what I consider a win-win. That individual got what they needed out of the situation and it wasn\u2019t the price. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Now he could go and tell anybody he wants that he got a big price for the business and that\u2019s fine and that\u2019s a win. And if that makes him feel good that\u2019s great. But what it really did is it took care of him and his wife. And I think a lot of times we negotiate numbers but it\u2019s not, it\u2019s what\u2019s the story? What are they really trying to accomplish with that? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then you go back and you solve that problem for them. And I\u2019ve done that in five or six if not 10 different situations where I\u2019ve been able to put deals together that otherwise could have been undoable.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah I love that. And that applies again to yeah, any deal that you\u2019re working through whether it\u2019s a business, whether it\u2019s a specific real estate deal, there\u2019s usually something that people say that they want, right. And it\u2019s very different from what they actually want. They just don\u2019t know how express necessarily.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So by asking those questions you can get there. So do you mind if I dive a little bit on let\u2019s say this particular deal and for confidentiality reasons if you can\u2019t say what the company is that\u2019s fine. But I\u2019m wondering like how did you even come across the opportunity like how did you find this?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> So I\u2019m always looking for opportunities and I tend to do that a lot. I call it eight to eight, eight to eight. So from 8AM to 8PM I have to do things that make money now. That\u2019s either taking time for family and loved ones or working out and eating or working in my job to make some money. But from 8PM to 8AM that\u2019s my time.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And during my time I can do whatever creative I want. So at night you\u2019ll see me often Googling companies, looking up websites, researching people. And I send hundreds and hundreds of LinkedIn messages to businesses and emails reaching out trying to find deals. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the vast majority of deals I\u2019ve gotten I bought a company from Zillow called Active Rain because I sent the CEO a direct message on Twitter. I bought one other company from LinkedIn time and time again because I reached out to them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s cool.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> It might be the first time I\u2019ve even heard someone say they used LinkedIn effectively as opposed to how most people do. So that\u2019s awesome.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> It\u2019s a different approach though. It\u2019s usually it\u2019s not that I want to buy your company, it\u2019s that I want to get to know you. And I\u2019ll fly them out or I\u2019ll fly there. And I\u2019ll spend a day letting them talk to me, tell me how great they are, explain their world, show me their business. And I don\u2019t talk about me at all and I just get to know them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I ask them what\u2019s important about them. And by the end of the day or two, I\u2019ll understand what it is in their life that\u2019s causing them pain or what is in their life that will give them pleasure. And I\u2019m looking for that button. And I will spend as much time as I need trying to figure out what is the button that would make a difference in this deal when everybody else jumps in there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">One particular deal we did, there was an offer on the business for three million dollars from a private equity group and we bought that business for just over a million. They accepted a two million dollars less purchase price because I figured out what was important. And for that individual it was that he wanted to keep working, he wanted his employees to be taken care of. And he wanted it to stay in the location where they operated in.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I made a commitment that I would stay there, I would keep them employed I would increase their salaries, I would provide them benefits, right. And I got the other competing company to write me a letter that said that their intention was to consolidate all the businesses and move into the East Coast. And I brought that letter to the meeting.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Said, \u201cYou may get more money today but you\u2019re going to have to face these people in the grocery store every time you see them to let them know that you sold their jobs out. Or you can do a deal with me and we\u2019ll find a way to make an equivalent win. And you\u2019ll find that money is not the only factor in a deal.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s so true. Alright so on this particular one that you gave the example of earlier, you talk about buying it basically no money down, right. What did you actually do with that property then? Did you put somebody else in charge? Did you find new talent or did you raise somebody up from within the company? And then what was the outcome to that? What\u2019s the company like today?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Yeah because the gentleman was phasing out, we paid him for a short period of time to stay in and then we hired a replacement in that business. And that business today is worth quite a bit of money because the revenue I think when we did that deal the revenue was out like a million to a year. And I think in the first 30 days of using our sales and marketing engine we brought in more annual revenue in that next 30 days than they had done their whole previous year.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s good.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Because businesses traditionally have either they\u2019re great at sales and marketing and they have a crappy product or they have a really great product and they can\u2019t sell or market it. And we bring an approach where we find great products and we put a massive sales and marketing engine on it because we\u2019re used to pick up the phone and cold calling and doing marketing and we do that business. Most businesses don\u2019t fail because they have a bad product, they fail because they can\u2019t hire or they can\u2019t sell it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019s really good.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Alright, what lessons did you learn from this deal in particular Ben?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> I think from this deal and a whole bunch of other deals like it, we learn how hard it is to integrate technologies into each other, or to integrate leadership teams into each other. And it took time and it takes a while. You always think it\u2019s going to be faster than it is. And it caused a lot of chaos. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">In fact that month that I said that we lost that $430,000 was because of problems that were created through that integration. And we fixed it and I was just messaging with those leaders the other day and he said, \u201cHey there\u2019s been times in the last two years that I\u2019ve really wanted to quit. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I want you to know that I still think this is one of the better decisions I\u2019ve ever made in my life and I want to thank you.\u201d And it wasn\u2019t always like that. I mean there were times that we wanted to strangle each other. But that commitment to each other and our commitment to work through it we\u2019re able to survive it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> There we go, alright.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> That\u2019s really good. I think one of the things you mentioned that I just want to comment on before is that your approach wasn\u2019t let me chase someone down, throw money at him see if they say yes or no and move on. And that strategy will work at a lot of things in life. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you met someone you don\u2019t know and say, \u201cDo you want to get married?\u201d and they say no and you move on to the next thing you\u2019re much less likely to be affected than if you slow down and you take the time to get to know them. Brandon always talks about how dating is a funnel, he thinks everything is a funnel and in a way it kind of is.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And Brandon is right, heather is always jumping in and saying, \u201cBrandon you\u2019re an idiot it\u2019s not that simple, right.\u201d because Heather understands that yeah you have to talk to a lot of people but you have to be doing it with a purpose. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You need to be getting to know that person improving yourself before you jump right to where you\u2019re trying to get. And if more people would build skills in that area as opposed to just I\u2019m going to just focus on how many LinkedIn messages I can send, I think they\u2019d be more successful.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Relationships matter, that\u2019s the message right there ain\u2019t it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> There you go.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Yes absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah well that was the deal deep dive. Now we\u2019re going to head over to the next segment of the show, The Fire Round.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>It\u2019s time for the Fire Round.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>You know what is a lot of fun? Financial freedom through real estate investing. You know what\u2019s not a lot of fun? The bookkeeping and the accounting that goes with it. Luckily our friends over at FreshBooks made ridiculously easy cloud accounting software for small business owners just like us.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>And that means landlords, property managers or anybody who is self-employed. You can link your FreshBooks account to your credit or debit card. So next time you expense that business lunch or that tank of gas, it\u2019s going to show up automatically in your FreshBooks account. You can even take pictures of receipts on your phone and upload them using their FreshBooks mobile app.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>It\u2019s pretty awesome. Also they\u2019ve got amazing customer service. Super friendly, zero attitude a real life person usually answers in three rings or less. Very cool. Finally when tax time does roll around just click on reports to get tidy summaries of all of your expense reports, any invoices, sales tax summaries and a lot more.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>So claim your 30 day unrestricted free trial no credit card required. Go to FreshBooks.com\/biggerpockets and enter BiggerPockets in the how did you hear about us.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Alright it\u2019s time for the Fire Round of course these questions come direct out of the BiggerPockets forums, which everyone can go visit at biggerpockets.com\/forums. Alright Ben, we\u2019re going to throw this at you rapid fire style, so big question Q&amp;A nice and fast. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Number one Corbin from Louisville Kentucky said: I just got done reading Set For Life which is a book by Scott Trench the CEO of BiggerPockets. And I\u2019ve decided I\u2019m going to house hack. I\u2019m going to buy a duplex or triplex or fourplex, live in one unit rent the other ones out. Where should I start shopping? What approach should I even take to begin looking for that small multifamily?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> I believe most deals that are good, everybody knows about and they\u2019re gone if they\u2019re on the market I mean. So do what I did, go after off market properties, look for one specifically that have out of area tax mailing addresses. Because they don\u2019t have a good grasp of what\u2019s going on in the market or they inherited the property whatever.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Find a property that nobody else knows about. It would take you to door knock and cold call but you\u2019re going to end up with a way better deal.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah awesome.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Next question: I\u2019m a newly licensed real estate agent and an aspiring investor. Over and over again I\u2019ve heard investors in the BiggerPockets community complain about the lack of investor friendly real estate agents. This seems to be an opportunity. What advice would you give me for how I can curve out a niche business serving other investors? What are investors looking for in a real estate agent?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Investors are looking good deals. And if it\u2019s a good deal, first you should just buy it yourself. And the reason you don\u2019t buy it yourself is because you don\u2019t have the income and the cash set aside so go fix that problem. Investors that want a long term relationship, they\u2019re going to invest as much into you as you do into them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You don\u2019t want somebody that\u2019s just going to use you and make you write low offers all day. So be careful as a real estate agent that you don\u2019t go chase a one way relationship where they\u2019re using you and you don\u2019t have that long term win.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah that\u2019s great. Number three, I\u2019ve got a commission based job so my income is really unpredictable. It\u2019s going to be hard for me to get a loan to invest in real estate. Any advice for somebody without a steady pay check like every real estate agent out there?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> The highest paid individuals in the world in my opinion and they have jobs or are on commission. And your commission can be variable if your activities are. So if you want to have a more consistent income, double or triple your activities. And if you\u2019re in a commission job or you\u2019re waiting on people to walk into your furniture shop or car dealership, switch careers so that you can get to that job that has that unlimited income.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s so good. I never really thought about it in those terms before but so many people talk about like their pay cheques are up and down it\u2019s not a very steady pay cheque, well that\u2019s because like their thinking usually it\u2019s like zero dollars one month, 5000 the next month, zero the next month. A lot of people have that problem.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So triple your efforts, find ways to work harder, work smarter and then maybe the variable is I make 20 one month, 25 the next month, 20 the next month, and now like who cares, variables is fine. No bank is going to have a problem with that. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But also the point about if you\u2019re waiting for business to come in find something that you can go out there and hunt for rather than sitting at home in your cave hoping a bear wanders into the cave that you can hit it with a stick, alright yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> That\u2019s right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Maybe not a bear, maybe something easier to kill like a rabbit or something.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Well you remember that every good thing in your life required you to quite something. Don\u2019t be afraid of quitting in order to get to where you want to go. Be afraid of staying where you are for the rest of your life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s good advice I\u2019m out of here guys.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> It\u2019s Twitter quote right there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Let\u2019s move on, we\u2019ll wrap up the fire round there. But I want to head over to the last segment of our show which we lovingly refer to as our Famous Four. Alright with that let\u2019s get to the world famous, Famous Four. The same four question we ask every guest every week. Ben number one, do you have a favourite real estate related book?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Probably the 150 pages of The Millionaire Real Estate Investor. And I hate to beat up Jay and Gary but the first 150 pages are the best. Or Tax-Free Wealth is a big winner for me this year.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Alright.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Awesome. Okay what about your favourite business book?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> I read a massive amount of books. I hate to give Gary and Jay too much credit but The ONE Thing has definitely been an instrumental book in my life. I focus in on what is the very first priority and what is the one thing that if I\u2019m focused on today would make everything else in my life easier or unnecessary? That book in itself changed my life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> I\u2019d say the same thing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> We\u2019ve actually had Jay on the podcast before. So he did a really good job we\u2019ll get that number for you guys and put it in the show notes if you want to listen to Jay\u2019s podcast. But he\u2019s a very smart business mind and he writes very good books. How about some hobbies Ben? What are your hobbies?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> They\u2019re not popular in today\u2019s world but I love to fly fish, and hunt and hike and be outdoors and hang out with my golden retriever. And I love to read books and buy businesses.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s awesome.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Pretty cool hobbies.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Really good hobbies. Number four, Ben what do you think sets apart successful real estate investors from those who give up fail or never get started?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben: <\/b>I think they complicate things, they come up with reasons to justify their results and they don\u2019t take action. They don\u2019t just start with one thing. If you want to be a millionaire in real estate and you don\u2019t know where to start, buy a house. And then in two years buy another one and then in two years buy another one.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you did that 10 times and you held them for 30 years, at the average price of America, you\u2019d have a net worth of almost $8 million in 30 years. You just wanted to be an eight million dollar per year person, all you have to do would be to buy a house, rent it out and then buy another one. And you do that because the down payment is low, the interest rate is fixed and you can get a proof of financing. Just do it 10 times,<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> That\u2019s really good. I\u2019ve heard it said the easiest way to be a millionaire is to take a million dollars in real estate debt and let your tenants pay it off for you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s how I do the whole college hacking thing right for Rosie. Buy a property, put it on an 18 year mortgage, let the tenants pay it off and now it pays for her entire college. It would be worth 400 grand by then.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> That\u2019s amazing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah it just pays for your kids\u2019 college. Anyway alright cool. Well David last question.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Alright last question of the day. Ben for people that are fascinated by your incredible story and want to follow you on your journey to being the second coming of Warren Buffett where can people find out more about you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> They can reach out to me online. They can email me <a href=\"mailto:ben@benkinney.com\" target=\"_blank\"><span class=\"s2\">ben@benkinney.com<\/span><\/a> or Facebook or Twitter, or if they ever want to come to one of our events we do events at benkinneytraining.com. Our next event is Win Make Give and it\u2019s in April. And it\u2019s about health, wealth leadership and legacy. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And one of the things that people may not know is we give 100% of the proceeds of all my training events to charity. And this year we\u2019re putting that money towards providing housing solutions for fathers who are in some form of homelessness and they have children. Right now across the United States there\u2019s nearly 3,000 organizations funded by the government for women and children. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the last time we checked there was only one for fathers. And we want to break that cycle of homelessness. So if you come during any of our events, I don\u2019t do it for money, that\u2019s why we do it. So hopefully they\u2019ll show up someday.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s fantastic, really good stuff. Well thank you Ben this has been like eye opening just really good stuff today. So thank you and yeah I look forward to seeing you around.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ben:<\/b> Alright. Good to see you guys thanks for the time.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Thank you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Thanks Ben.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Alright that was our interview with Ben Kinney business extraordinaire what did you say, the second coming of Warren Buffett.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Yes. I don\u2019t know if anybody has ever told him that but I thought of it when he was talking because they think the same way. Man I mean honestly this is one that you\u2019re going to need to listen to a couple of times because I can guarantee that with this much coming at you that fast you\u2019ll miss some stuff while you were processing something earlier.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Just his facts alone on the filter he runs things through the seven goals that he has and he asks himself when an opportunity comes, would this help me meet my goals, like that\u2019s worth thousands of dollars. Just that one little piece of information. And this was full of things just like that,<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> Yeah really good, so awesome episode. I\u2019m totally bumped up I actually want to just like even before this episode comes out because this doesn\u2019t come out for a few weeks, I\u2019m going to go and just take my Mp3 I just recorded and just go listen to the whole thing again because I\u2019m like super jazzed.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So anyway alright everyone thank you so much for listening to our show. Again you can find the show notes at biggerpockets.com\/show322. Again biggerpockets.com\/show322. Follow us over in Instagram @BiggerPockets is the BiggerPockets Instagram, mine is @BeardyBrandon with a Y BeardyBrandon and David\u2019s is @DavidGreene24. You want to take us out buddy?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>David:<\/b> Yes. Everybody who is listening add us on Instagram and Facebook, Twitter. Post what your goals are I want to issue a challenge for it. If you\u2019ve got goals post what they are, tag Brandon and I. he and I are going to put our heads together and come up with how we help each other meeting our goals and we\u2019ll probably share those with you in the future. I think that\u2019s a great exercise. And with that being said, this is David Greene for Brandon (Everything is a Funnel) Turner, signing off.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Brandon:<\/b> That\u2019s a pretty good one.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>You&#8217;re listening to<\/i> <i>BiggerPockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors, large and small. If you&#8217;re here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you&#8217;re in the right place. Be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com; your home for real estate investing online.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>[End of Recording] [01:19:05]<\/b><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<h2 id=\"podcast-youtube-video\">Watch the Podcast Here<\/h2>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"3 Things Every Leader MUST Do to Scale with Ben Kinney | BiggerPockets Podcast 322\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/WUAkWDUl2Bs?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<h2>Help Us Out!<\/h2>\n<p>Help us reach new listeners on iTunes by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/forums\/25\/topics\/161423-do-you-listen-to-the-bp-podcast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">here<\/a>. Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n<h2>This Show Sponsored By<\/h2>\n<p><strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-101508 no-display appear\" src=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/roofstock-logo-300x120.png\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/roofstock-logo-300x120.png 300w, https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/roofstock-logo-768x308.png 768w, https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/08\/roofstock-logo.png 959w\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"120\" title=\"\">Roofstock<\/strong>\u00a0is the #1 marketplace for buying and selling leased, single-family rental homes. Their marketplace of tenant-occupied rental properties makes it easy to invest in cash flowing properties across the U.S. and start earning cash flow day one. They even connect you with vetted local property managers, so you can invest and own remotely with confidence.<\/p>\n<p>To sign up for a free account and start browsing cash flowing rental homes, visit\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/roofstock.com\/biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">roofstock.com\/biggerpockets<\/a>.<\/p>\n<h2>Deep Dive Sponsor<\/h2>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-77567 alignright no-display appear\" src=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/simplisafe.png\" alt=\"simplisafe\" width=\"271\" height=\"58\" title=\"\">Check out <strong>SimpliSafe<\/strong> Security\u2019s DIY home security systems; an affordable, wireless, cellular, and customizable system that doesn\u2019t require a contract!<\/p>\n<p>If you go to <a href=\"http:\/\/simplisafe.com\/biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">SimpliSafe.com\/biggerpockets<\/a>\u00a0you\u2019ll get 25% off any new system. That\u2019s an amazing deal.<br \/>\nThey rarely do anything like this but they\u2019re doing it just for us!<\/p>\n<h2>Fire Round Sponsor<\/h2>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright wp-image-74647 size-gallery-block no-display appear\" src=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/08\/freshlogo-214x140.png\" alt=\"freshlogo\" width=\"214\" height=\"140\" title=\"\">A huge thanks as well to our\u00a0sponsor\u00a0<strong>FreshBooks<\/strong>.<br \/>\nFreshBooks customers spend less time on paperwork, freeing up\u00a0<span class=\"tooltips\">2 days per month<\/span>\u00a0to focus on the work they love. What would you do with that extra time?<\/p>\n<p>Learn more by visiting\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/www.freshbooks.com\/pages\/biggerpockets?ref=11568&amp;utm_source=bigger-pockets&amp;utm_medium=podcast&amp;utm_campaign=2015\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">FreshBooks<\/a>.<\/p>\n<h2>In This Episode We Cover:<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The <strong>amazing story<\/strong> behind how Ben got started selling homes<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Being <strong>recession<\/strong> proof<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why he builds and <strong>buys businesses <\/strong><\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Using <strong>synergy<\/strong> to grow his RE empire<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>What he looks<\/strong> for in a deal<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Why he likes to <strong>buy and hold<\/strong> instead of flip<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How big businessmen <strong>save on taxes<\/strong><\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is the <strong>income triangle<\/strong> and how to flip it<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Finding <strong>great leaders<\/strong> as partners or employees <\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Building an <strong>ecosystem<\/strong> to help find him deals<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Questions he asks <strong>new hires<\/strong> or partners to determine if they are the right ones <\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The story about how he spent <strong>six days to find ONE hire<\/strong><\/span><\/li>\n<li><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Working only do <strong>things he enjoys<\/strong><\/span><\/li>\n<li><strong>And SO much more!<\/strong><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Links from the Show<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/forums\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Forums<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/webinars\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Webinar<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/beardybrandon\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Brandon&#8217;s Instagram<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/facehook.com\/biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Facebook Page<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.smartpassiveincome.com\/podcasts\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Pat Flynn&#8217;s Podcast<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/realestateguysradio.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">The Real Estate Guys<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/biggerpockets-podcast-315-read-human-nature-succeed-life-robert-greene\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Podcast 315: How to Read Human Nature to Succeed in Life with Bestselling Author Robert Greene<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/2015\/03\/12\/bp-podcast-113-becoming-millionaire-real-estate-investor-using-one-thing-with-jay-papasan\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Podcast 113: Becoming a Millionaire Real Estate Investor Using The One Thing with Jay Papasan<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/davidgreene24\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">David&#8217;s Instagram<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/biggerpockets\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Instagram<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Books Mentioned in this Show<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2HwWkEc\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The Millionaire Real Estate Agent<\/em><\/a> by Gary Keller<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2UKFpRq\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Cashflow Quadrant<\/em><\/a> by Robert Kiyosaki<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2UNiYLt\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Rich Dad Poor Dad<\/em><\/a> by Robert Kiyosaki<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/setforlife\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Set for Life<\/em><\/a> by Scott Trench<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2OgA7e1\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Extreme Ownership<\/em><\/a> by Jocko Willink<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2JuKXyg\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Tax-Free Wealth<\/em><\/a> by Tom Wheelwright<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/theonething\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The ONE Thing<\/em><\/a> by Gary Keller and Jay Papasan<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Tweetable Topics:<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li>&#8220;I hate when people call me an entrepreneur and the reason is because 98% so-called entrepreneurs fail.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22I%20hate%20when%20people%20call%20me%20an%20entrepreneur%20and%20the%20reason%20is%20because%2098%25%20so-called%20entrepreneurs%20fail.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20322%20biggerpockets.com\/show322%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;Systems make the ordinary become extraordinary.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22Systems%20make%20the%20ordinary%20become%20extraordinary.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20322%20biggerpockets.com\/show322%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;People complicate things to justify their inactions.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22People%20complicate%20things%20to%20justify%20their%20inactions.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20322%20biggerpockets.com\/show322%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;You can&#8217;t be chasing money because money runs too fast.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22You%20can&#039;t%20be%20chasing%20money%20because%20money%20runs%20too%20fast.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20322%20biggerpockets.com\/show322%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;Hire the things you don&#8217;t enjoy.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22Hire%20the%20things%20you%20don&#039;t%20enjoy.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20322%20biggerpockets.com\/show322%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Connect with Ben<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/benkinney.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ben&#8217;s Personal Website<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"mailto:ben@benkinney.com\" target=\"_blank\">Email Ben<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/BenKinneyTraining\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ben&#8217;s Facebook Page<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/benkinney\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ben&#8217;s Twitter Profile<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/benkinneytraining.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ben&#8217;s Training Website<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Today\u2019s guest grew up poor, living in a cabin without power or running water. But now he controls millions of dollars in real estate, owns several companies, and leads one of the country\u2019s top-producing sales teams. How did Ben Kinney pull that off?<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":17340,"featured_media":109000,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[4565],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-108988","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-biggerpockets-podcast"],"acf":[],"comment_count":0,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/108988","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/17340"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=108988"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/108988\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/109000"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=108988"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=108988"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=108988"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}