{"id":111075,"date":"2019-05-20T00:02:07","date_gmt":"2019-05-20T06:02:07","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/?p=111075"},"modified":"2023-04-26T23:07:49","modified_gmt":"2023-04-27T05:07:49","slug":"biggerpockets-money-podcast-73-ramit-sethi-teach-rich","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/biggerpockets-money-podcast-73-ramit-sethi-teach-rich","title":{"rendered":"Ramit Sethi Will Teach You to Be Rich! &#8211; BiggerPockets Money Podcast 73"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ten years ago, <strong>Ramit Sethi<\/strong> released his groundbreaking book <em><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2YyUAyI\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/a><\/em>. Now he\u2019s back, with an all-new, updated version, delivered with the same authority and enthusiasm as the original.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But wait, there\u2019s more\u2014<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">MUCH more! <\/span>Ramit has completely revamped this book. There\u2019s over 100 brand new pages of content!<\/p>\n<p>Mindy and Scott talk to Ramit about his take on the <a href=\"\/renewsblog\/2016\/03\/28\/financial-freedom\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">FIRE movement<\/a>, what &#8220;rich&#8221; means to him, and his opinion of real estate as an investment.<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you\u2019re looking for excuses to not get started repairing your finances and living your best life, you\u2019ll find them everywhere. But w<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">hen you\u2019re ready to get your financial life in order and grow your wealth, Ramit&#8217;s book will not only help you define the term &#8220;rich,&#8221; but will also give you the tools to get there\u2014without the guilt, without the B.S. It&#8217;s just a six-week program that works.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/biggerpockets-money-podcast\/id1330225136\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Click here<\/a>\u00a0to listen on iTunes.<\/p>\n<h2>Listen to the Podcast Here<\/h2>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https:\/\/playlist.megaphone.fm?e=BIGPOC2380383734&#038;light=false\" width=\"100%\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<h2>Read the Transcript Here<\/h2>\n<div style=\"overflow-y: scroll; max-height: 400px; background: #eee; padding: 20px; border: 1px solid #ddd;\">\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Welcome to BiggerPockets Money Podcast, Show Number 73, where we interview Ramit Sethi, author of <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>\u201cRemember that people who negotiate once tend to negotiate multiple times. And remember that it\u2019s not as scary as you think. It\u2019s just a skill. You can learn it. There are actual words and processes to use and it is one of the best things you can do to increase your earnings\u201d.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>It\u2019s time for a new American dream, one that doesn\u2019t involve working in a cubicle for 40 years, barely scraping by. Whether you\u2019re looking to get your financial house in order, invest the money you already have, or discover new paths for wealth\u2019s creation, you\u2019re in the right place. This show is for anyone who has money or wants more, this is the BiggerPockets Money podcast.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>How\u2019s it going, everybody? I\u2019m Scott Trench and I\u2019m here with my co-host, Miss Mindy Jensen. How are you doing today, Mindy? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Scott, I am over the moon about today\u2019s guest. Ramit Sethi. Most of our guests tell their story of their journey to financial independence and although we\u2019ve got some great tips and tricks episodes, too, like Erin Chase from Five Dollar Dinners on Episode 3 and Rosemary Gruener from The Busy Budgeter on Episode 4, and this episode is another tips and tricks show. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Ten years ago, Ramit wrote a book called <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>. And he\u2019s back now with an updated version.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Yeah, Ramit is just a wealth of knowledge in the concept of personal finance. I think as it applies to a lot of people like you guys who will be listening to this podcast here. And he\u2019s just studied this concept over the last decade or multiple years before the last decade, right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">He\u2019s just kind of engaged in lots of debate, listened to lots of stories and has a compilation of things about what he thinks are approachable and effective ways to automate your finances and build your position, increase your income, all that good stuff. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We debate real estate investing. We talk about first home purchases. We talk about everything on the show and man, he is a great debater and great conversationalist, great tips, great knowledge. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yeah, he is a powerhouse. He is a wealth of knowledge and I encourage everybody to listen to the entire show all the way through because he doesn\u2019t stop bringing it for the entire hour and twenty minutes or hour and thirty minutes that he\u2019s talking to us. It\u2019s just boom, boom, boom, boom\u2014he doesn\u2019t stop and it\u2019s amazing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But I want to give the URL for today\u2019s show up front because we link to a lot of things on the show in the notes. So that\u2019s <a href=\"http:\/\/www.BiggerPockets.com\/MoneyShow73\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><span class=\"s2\">www.BiggerPockets.com\/MoneyShow73<\/span><\/a> so you can find all of the information we have there. You can get the new book. Links to his site, links to his social media accounts, all of that. Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>And before we bring in today\u2019s sponsor, I do want to give a shoutout\u2014Ramit actually rewrote page by page the entirety of the book, <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>. It\u2019s a New York Times bestseller and it\u2019s actually being released this week, this second edition with a whole bunch of new updates. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So definitely, if you get a chance, you like the show and you want to learn more about this and kind of see that revised edition of this classic in the finance space, check out, <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>. I think you can get it on Amazon or you can get it at his website, <i>IWillTeachYoutoBeRich.com <\/i>and get the new edition.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>And everywhere else books are sold. You can buy a book there. You\u2019ll find this book there, too. Okay. Before we bring in Ramit, let\u2019s hear a note from today\u2019s show sponsor.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Real estate investing is known for a lot of things, mainly making a select group of people a lot of money. But being on cutting edge experience is usually not one of its hallmarks. Well, that\u2019s no longer the case. Fundrise is the future of real estate investing. Their revolutionary model is transforming the industry, thanks to software that cuts out costly middlemen and old market inefficiencies. Fundrise delivers the kind of investing powers you usually only see in giant institutions, bringing real estate\u2019s unique potential for long-term growth and cash flow to individual investors.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Getting started is simple and usually takes less than five minutes. When you invest, you will be instantly diversified across dozens of real estate projects, each one carefully vetted and actively managed by Fundrise\u2019s team of real estate pros. Then, you can use their intuitive investor dashboard and real-time reporting system to monitor the progress in each property within your portfolio. That\u2019s the future of real estate investing.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>So, ready to get started? Visit Fundrise.com\/BPMoney. That\u2019s Fundrise.com\/BPMoney to have your first three months of fees waived. Again, that\u2019s Fundrise.com\/BPMoney.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>All right, huge thanks to Fundrise for sponsoring today\u2019s show. Are we ready, Scott?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Let\u2019s do it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Ramit Sethi, welcome to the BiggerPockets Money Podcast. How are you doing today?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I am great, thank you for having me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Thank you for coming on. I\u2019m super excited about your book. What\u2019s your book called again?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>It\u2019s called <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich, the Second Edition.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Second edition. <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>. What does rich mean to you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You know, when I started out, thinking about money, rich, to me, was being able to order an appetizer when I went out. Because when I grew up, we didn\u2019t order appetizers. We ate out maybe once every six weeks and only to places we had a coupon for and we would never order an appetizer. So that was my dream.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">My other dream, which was a very modest dream, was that when I moved to New York, I would be here in the hot summers and I would take the subway if I had to go to a meeting. My dream was to be able to eventually take a taxi without ever having to think about the cost. Very modest dreams. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Now that my business has grown and we have a million readers a month and all that stuff, I think my dreams have gotten a lot bigger. And rich, to me, is only working with people who I respect and like, never having to make a bad decision because of money, and being able to travel for a month every year and travel without looking at the price tag of any hotel or any flight. And being able to really sort of integrate my family as we travel.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So for example, taking our parents on part of our honeymoon was a big thing for my wife and for me. So, that\u2019s what rich is to me and being able to do meaningful work. But I think it\u2019s different for everyone. That\u2019s why I called the book, <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>. Your rich is different than my rich and that\u2019s perfectly fine. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Love it. I think it\u2019s different that you stated rich as an emotional concept. We get that from time to time on this but I always struggled to\u2014my desire at all times when I\u2019m talking about the word \u201crich\u201d, financial freedom, all that kind of stuff, is to put a number on something around that. But I get it. There\u2019s a sliding scale, right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">There\u2019s this, hey, I\u2019ve got $5000 in the bank or enough to take a taxi without thinking about it and I\u2019ve got the ability to go where I want in the world and do exactly what I want all day with my time. How do you think someone who is maybe in a middle-class income, maybe earning $50,000-$100,000 a year, living paycheck to paycheck\u2014what should their definition of rich be, or what would they stand to gain out of learning to be rich from you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Well, first off, if you\u2019re living paycheck to paycheck, the simplest answer is you should just get out of that cycle, right? If you\u2019re living paycheck to paycheck, there are things you can do, it\u2019s called the CEO strategy, which is called \u201cCut Costs\u201d\u2014everybody knows that internally but they waste their time cutting costs on meaningless things like lattes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Cutting costs on lattes is like the worst advice ever. $3.00 a day doesn\u2019t even add up to that much. Plus, you feel guilty. It\u2019s the one joy you have in the morning. And you don\u2019t even do it. So people waste their time, their limited cognitive resources on $3.00. Why don\u2019t you just stop that and focus on the big areas you can cut\u2014negotiating your salary? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">That\u2019s an example of the \u201cE\u201d part, which is \u201cEarning more\u201d. That\u2019s another thing most people don\u2019t think about. So they are like, oh, I\u2019ve got to cut back on like the types of paper clips I buy but they forget that there\u2019s a limit to how much you can cut, but no limit to how much you can earn and then \u201cO\u201d is for \u201coptimizing your spending\u201d.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I think for those people who are living paycheck to paycheck situation, the first thing would be putting aside some savings every month. And it doesn\u2019t matter if it\u2019s $20-$2000. The most common objection to that is people would be like, there\u2019s no way I can cut back anymore. And I\u2019m like, okay\u2014I\u2019m being polite but in my head I\u2019m like, here we go. And trust me, I love these conversations.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I\u2019m like okay, what have you tried? And they\u2019re like, I\u2019ve tried everything. I\u2019m like, tell me. They\u2019re like, you know, I try to eat out less. I\u2019m like, okay, that\u2019s cool. What else? Like, I mean, there\u2019s nothing else. I mean, I can cancel my phone service. They went from eating out less to cancelling their phone service. That\u2019s the extent of thought going into it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So there are things that can be done that are on a big scale. There are also things like calling up the subscriptions and using the script in my book, literally negotiating your fees down. And those fees accumulate, right? They\u2019re a credence so you\u2019re not just saving $10 a month or $50 a month. It\u2019s going over years and years. So that\u2019s the first place, I would say, Scott, to get out of that cycle before you can look ahead and talk about financial independence, you need to be having some money automatically saved every month.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Love it. When I think about cutting spending, I\u2019ll think about hey, there are fixed and variable costs here, right? And what it sounds like you\u2019re talking about is those fixed costs, subscriptions. They\u2019re really kind of an easy way to cut those. If you cut those, you\u2019re just automatically saving lots of money every month which is what the latte is, the \u201cvariable\u201d cost, which is a behavioral thing that you\u2019ve got to go and change there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">When it comes through the larger expenses, you know, if you break out the average of American household spending, you\u2019ve got 33% of that spending is in house living expenses\u2014the mortgage, the rent, and all that kind of stuff. Housing. Then you\u2019ve got another 17% at transportation and the next 13% is going to be food. And it\u2019s sad that I know these statistics off the top of my head. But I guess that\u2019s the territory here. When you think about it, do you have any advice on those three big categories for cutting those out? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I do. And I just love that you know those offhand. Listen, anyone listening to this podcast, and certainly if you\u2019re interviewing, you\u2019re kind of a weird like nerd. Okay? All of us are weird. Let\u2019s just admit it. If you know the difference between a ROTH or a 401K, you\u2019re a weirdo.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So we\u2019re all in good company here. I think that I really like to be conservative on the big items. So I have something that I call the \u201ctripod of stability\u201d. And for me, I really want to be stable in where I live, what my employment, and my relationships. Just like pure stability. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">As an example, I moved to New York ten years ago. I\u2019ve lived in the same apartment ever since. My net worth has increased during that time but I stayed. I\u2019m perfectly happy. It\u2019s a great place. I\u2019m good. My computer, seven years old. It works. It runs. It might sound like an airplane but it works.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But what that does, being conservative in those areas allows me to be very risk-seeking in others. It allows me to invest very aggressively. It allows me to take risks with my business and also to honestly just splurge on the things that I love.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I would say that if most people actually followed a few simple formulas when it came to their spending, they would be in really good shape. Here\u2019s some simple formulas I have. I want to have a one-year emergency fund cash. That\u2019s a little bit more aggressive than most but I like it. I want to have a no-debt policy overall. And if I do use debt, it would be maybe for a house. And so I would start with 20% down minimum, if not more.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I have several other rules that I use that are very, very conservative. Though if you follow things that are 28% of your pay for housing, if you just follow those basic rules, you\u2019re going to be in a really good conservative position. What happens is most people overspend on the big things. They forget to account for the phantom costs. And then they wake up one day and they\u2019re like, where\u2019s all my money? Well, the money you can\u2019t find, you spent it six years ago on a poor decision you made.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I love that concept of the one-year emergency fund in cash and how you applied that in thinking, too, hey, that allows me to take risks in other areas and be much more aggressive. So does your investment portfolio reflect a very aggressive outlook, given that you have a large cash cushion there? Is that how you are structuring things?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>It\u2019s actually a backwards-bending curve, because once you start off\u2014in general, if you\u2019re young, you\u2019re slightly more risk-seeking, but there\u2019s a new billboard that\u2019s going around in New York and it says, \u201cBe better than average\u201d. You should actually be average and you should be happy with it. Oh, better than average.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Of course, I want to have a better-than-average relationship. I want to have a better-than-average bicep. But actually, in investing, you should be perfectly happy with an 8% return. It\u2019s great. The real problem comes when you try to get 18% in returns and 16 years from now, you realize, oh, I really wasn\u2019t as smart as I thought.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So no, the backwards-bending part happens as you become wealthier, you actually cut down on your risks. There is a great story about Suze Orman. She recommends people have simple index funds, etc. And then one reporter in the New York Times asked her, how much do you have? She says, I have about $25 million bucks or so.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">They said, where do you invest it? She said, I put a million in the market and I put all the rest in bonds. And everyone in the personal finance community was outrage. Oh, my God. Why would Suze Orman tell everyone bonds? Well, Suze Orman has 24 million reasons than you to put her money in bonds. She already won the game of personal finance.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So once you win the game, you don\u2019t have to compete at the same growth levels as other people. Therefore, I\u2019m risk-seeking in my business, but in my investments, I have a very stable, roughly 70-30 portfolio equities and I wouldn\u2019t call it aggressive. I wouldn\u2019t call it conservative. It is slightly aggressive. That\u2019s it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>It\u2019s average.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>It should be average, exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Love it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Where do you keep your one-year emergency fund?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I split it up over multiple savings accounts. So I have like a variety of different savings accounts. People who want to maximize the FDIC insurance will use this thing called Cedar\u2019s or a variety of other services and you can just split it out over any high-interest savings account.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">By the way, one thing that I hear people make a common mistake about is they rate-chase. They\u2019re like, what\u2019s the best savings account that\u2019s going to give me 0.02% more? And I call that a $3.00 question. Most people spend their lives asking $3.00 questions. You need to be asking $30,000 questions. Or once you become more successful, $300,000 or $3 million dollar questions. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you take a $10,000 balance and you count a 0.02 or 0.01% difference, you\u2019re talking about a few bucks a month. It\u2019s nothing. We shouldn\u2019t even be talking about this. You need to pick a good account, stick with it, move on. There is no more optimization you need to waste your time on.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I love that. I totally agree with that concept. I think I\u2019d even apply it at scale to investing, right? People are always like hey, what should I do? Should I invest in stocks, bonds? Should I keep this here or there and they\u2019re talking about $5,000 bucks, right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the answer is, no, you shouldn\u2019t focus on investing your $5,000. You\u2019ve got an extra return. You can think about it but be average. You need to get to that $50,000 or $100,000 in terms of your investment liquidity because that is when the returns actually begin to have significance. That\u2019s when it becomes a $3,000 question instead of a $3.00 question. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I completely agree. I\u2019m so glad you had that. So, I had a woman write me an e-mail. I have an e-mail list at <i>IWillTeachYouHowtoBeRich.com<\/i>. We have 400,000-500,000 people on it. And I e-mail multiple times a week and I read every response and it\u2019s very dynamic so you\u2019ll hear from me a lot.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Try to send out some awesome stuff every week. And I once asked people, what is something you know you should be doing more of, you claim is really important to you but you just don\u2019t do it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the answers were very typical. What do you guys think the answers were?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Invest more, eat less, save more money. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Bingo. Call mom more often, things like that. So there was a woman who wrote me and I was really struck by her response. I keep dreaming about going for a run three times a week. I never seem to be able to do it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I wrote her back and I said, why not just go once a week? And she wrote back and said, why would I run once a week? That doesn\u2019t accomplish anywhere.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I thought to myself, how interesting. This woman would rather dream about running three times a week than actually run about once a week. And that\u2019s exactly what people do with their money. They would rather dream about being a millionaire or being financially independent or FIRE. Than to actually say, you know what? I\u2019m going to put $1000 into this account. And then I\u2019m going to ratchet it up to $250 and then $500. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So my message to people is dreams are great but all that really matters is, what did you do yesterday and what are you doing tomorrow? And so behaviorally if you\u2019re on top of it, you\u2019re going to end up living a rich life. If you\u2019re not, you\u2019re going to leave it up to chance.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Obviously, this is related to personal finance and getting rich, but more on the concept of personal development, what do you do to keep on track with these goals? Or what do you encourage people to do to stay on track with their goals? Do you have a goalsetting system or some sort of thing in your mind there or to just\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, so first of all, I think for a lot of people, especially in the FIRE community, there\u2019s a lot we can talk about when it comes to FIRE but one of the key messages I want to encourage people to do is once you get your basic system set up, it\u2019s not magic. It\u2019s just math. You know exactly your debt payoff date. You literally know it down to your month and year. You know the exact month and year that you will become a millionaire or whatever your crossover point is.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So sitting there running another Monte Carlo analysis is not going to change your life. In fact, you need to turn off your spreadsheet, turn off Excel. You need to live your life outside your spreadsheet. Okay, that\u2019s it. And what I find with the FIRE community in particular, there\u2019s a lot of growth gains and <\/span><span class=\"s3\">[Inaudible][18:10]<\/span><span class=\"s1\"> as well. But I think there\u2019s some problems, too. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And one of the problems is that, at a certain point, it becomes very addictive to play with cell E62 because there\u2019s a lot of control. E62 is never going to turn its back on you. E62 is never going to require your emotional intelligence to go up. E62 is very logical and the FIRE community loves it. Well guess what? E62 is the same as it was last week, last year, etc. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So you have a plan. Why do you need to spend more time on it? You need to actually develop the muscle of living outside the spreadsheet, and that\u2019s really what a rich life is. It\u2019s you automated your money. I spend less than one hour a month on my money and everything runs. It\u2019s paid, it\u2019s automatically saved and invested, all of that. But the real rich life is what am I doing on Friday? Which friends am I travelling with this year? Am I working out? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I think for a lot of people, particularly for those people listening to a personal finance podcast, all you need to do is get 85% of the way there. Get there. Your asset allocation is dialed in. All that important stuff is good. But then like, you\u2019re good. You\u2019ve won the game. Now, it\u2019s just time. And now you need to spend that time building the skill of living outside the spreadsheet. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I really like how you acknowledge in the book that if you are inherently unhappy, becoming financially independent, fixing all of your problems is not going to make all of your other problems magically disappear. And you know, reading that can be powerful, especially in a book that says, <i>I Will Teach You too Be Rich<\/i>. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yeah, thank you for saying that. Listen, I know the name. The first thing you think is like, this is scam. And the second thing, you\u2019re like, was this guy drunk when he named his book, which is like a New York Times bestseller now. No, I was not drunk. I was sober. And I have a friend, Tim Ferriss, and we both talked about how we picked the scammiest names on earth for our titles. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But when you open it up and you read like the first four pages, you\u2019re like, oh wow. This actually is totally different than anything I\u2019d expect. So one of the reasons I wrote this book, which was, I do want to teach you how to be rich. I do think that money is a foundational item and it is important, a small but important part of a rich life. But it\u2019s very hard to live a rich life if your money is not dialed in.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">What do I mean by dialed in? I mean that you should know all the basic stuff of what is the percentage of what I\u2019m saving and investing? That stuff\u2019s easy. Your money should be flowing automatically, right? You wake up, you should not be deciding over paying bills. That question should have been decided weeks, months, years ago. You should not feel guilty about a latte or a $500 jacket. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Hey, you want to buy a $1000 pair of shoes? Be my guest. That\u2019s guilt-free spending. You already decided? I\u2019ll show you how to do it. In fact, I have a story in here about somebody that spends, I think $21,000 a year going out and I totally applaud that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then, really, you should have\u2014you get to the point by Chapter 9 where you\u2019ve already automated all this stuff. You\u2019ve done the mechanical parts. So now it\u2019s the real stuff like talking to your partner about money, getting aligned. Do you have parents who are in financial distress? What about going on a trip with your friends? Or like, what about investing in yourself? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Maybe you want to take a class. Maybe you want to splurge on something. Where does that fit into a rich life? That is the more advanced part of personal finance, which I really enjoyed updating and writing about in this book. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yeah, that\u2019s the fun part, the getting your spouse on board. The talking to your partner about money. If you\u2019re married, if you\u2019re in a long-term committed relationship, you really can\u2019t do this without having your partner on board. I mean, you can, but you are really fighting an uphill battle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And some of the common complaints of people who, maybe couples aren\u2019t on the same financial page. My partner spends more than I do. My partner feels like we should spend more money now, not save for the future. I really like in the book, you talk about your fantasy of hosting a TV show where couples have their first financial conversation together on the show and you throw in potstring questions like ooh, what\u2019s a secret that you\u2019ve been hiding from your partner about your money? I would totally watch that show, by the way.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Really?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I would totally watch that show. I\u2019m sorry, have you ever heard of a show called <i>Jerry Springer<\/i>? Small show. Maybe I just got it in Chicago, but yeah, they were on for a couple of years.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>That\u2019s a good show.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>How do you start that first conversation with your partner? Maybe you don\u2019t want to be a guest on the Ramit Stir Sh*t Up Show. Oh, I just said a bad word.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You definitely want to be a guest on that show. I\u2019m accepting applications for my new show, not even announced until Mindy here just told us, it\u2019s happening. So if you and your partner have money problems and you want the biggest stir on earth, sitting there, eating chips and habanero salsa, just throwing pot shots, send me an e-mail and you might be the first guest. Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yes, and for people who aren\u2019t on the show.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>All right. So let\u2019s think about what most people do and let\u2019s think about how we can do it differently. So I got an Instagram DM the other day from a woman who wrote me and said, my husband spends, WAY TOO MUCH, in all caps, WAY TOO MUCH on iced tea. And I rubbed my hands together and I said, here we go. Let\u2019s do it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I said, how much does your husband spend on iced tea? And she goes, he goes out at least 20 times a month. It\u2019s at least $1.50 each time. We\u2019re talking $30-40 and I said, wow. I knew where this was going but I had to lay the track. I said, hey, out of curiosity, what\u2019s your household income? And she got real quiet. She didn\u2019t respond for ten minutes. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Then finally, she wrote back and said, \u201cI\u2019m not comfortable sharing that\u201d. I said, give me a ballpark number. I\u2019m not going to share your name or anything. What do you think that she said their household income is? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I\u2019m going to go like high 5\u2019s or low 6-figures?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>So let\u2019s just say $100,000. And Scott?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Yeah, I would go with that $80-$120K. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>$80-120K. Okay. The answer that she gave me was $600,000.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Oh, my God. What does he do?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>They live in New York. So let\u2019s just take this example, because interesting your reaction. First of all, it\u2019s like exactly the same whether they make $100K or $600K. The $30 monthly expense is meaningless. It\u2019s literally a rounding error. So it literally doesn\u2019t matter that they earn $80K or $600K, it doesn\u2019t matter. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">What\u2019s the psychology going on here? The psychology going on is that she has a money value that you can make iced tea at home and I would be willing to bet her parents raised her, saying we don\u2019t usually do that kind of thing here. There\u2019s no need to eat out, etc. I know because I was raised in a similar household. Her husband\u2019s money perspective is probably very different.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And what happens is that are both speaking at this tactical level, the level of, you do iced tea\u2014and by the way, if we looked at her expenses, I\u2019m sure we can find something that she\u2019s \u201cwasting\u201d money on. That\u2019s what they\u2019re focused on. They\u2019re fighting a ground war. When in reality, they both need to reframe themselves, instead of infantry, they are generals. They need to be having a strategic conversation and move one or two levels up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The questions that I would start with would be, first of all, I would pick something that we could do together. I\u2019d say, you know, my husband or wife or boyfriend or girlfriend, I\u2019d say, you know what? I really want to get better at money. And I\u2019d love to pick up a book. This book coming out, <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>, or whatever book. Would you be down to read it with me? I think it would be a really fun exercise.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Okay, so let\u2019s just go through the decision tree. If your partner says yes, I would go through it week by week. And I would encourage you to both put some skin in the game. Maybe for Chapter 1, your partner writes the notes up. Maybe for Chapter 2, you write the notes up, right? Make it something where you\u2019re both consumers. You\u2019re actually producing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">As you get to the later chapters, you\u2019re going to have lots of realizations. You might discover that one of you likes a lot more money sitting in your checking account because it makes you feel safe. That\u2019s what happened in my relationship. The other might say, I really like to invest in a local bar in Brooklyn. Well, you\u2019re going to lose your money but okay, you want to do that? Fine. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So you\u2019re going to discover lots of things. What you\u2019re doing now is you get to have a conversation about values. What do you want to do with our money? What\u2019s important to us? Oh, we want to travel? What kind of hotels do we want to stay in? Where do we see ourselves? Do we want to live in Manhattan or Chicago? In what kind of place? What about kids?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">These are the conversations that we need to be having. These are big conversations. And when you talk through those, how were you raised? Did you go out to eat? By the time you get those big things out of the way, you can have those conversations in the spreadsheet. What happened with this couple on Instagram was they started with the spreadsheet and they just started attacking each other.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">$1.50, $1.50, iced tea. That\u2019s too much. They\u2019ll never get out of that unless they get a third party to come in and help. And so that\u2019s what I would suggest is, take it up a notch. Have something together that you can work through that will open up conversations. And when you do that, it\u2019s going to be less about, you did this wrong and I think this and more, here\u2019s a plan that somebody wrote. What do you think? Do you agree or disagree? Where should we go together as a team? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>You know, I love this. I love the suggestion to take notes on every chapter. The book is called <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i>, but the subtitle is <i>No Guilt, No Excuses, No BS. Just a Six-Week Program That Works<\/i>. And it does work if you do the work. If you are looking for an excuse for this to not work, you will find it. You will always find whatever you\u2019re looking for. So if you\u2019re looking for success, you\u2019re going to find it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yeah. And I think success, by the way, one thing that I talk about, when it comes to relationships is the most common thing people do when it comes to money is they start by telling the other partner what they\u2019re doing wrong. And that\u2019s a real surefire way to basically pollute your money relationship forever. I actually would encourage a couple to start off by saying, what is something amazing, something so over-the-top and awesome that we want to do this year?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We want to take a trip to Thailand. We want to take a weekend trip to London. Whatever it is. Okay, great. Let\u2019s ballpark it. How much is it going to cost? Well, it\u2019s going to be $1000 for the flight and this and that. Ballpark it. Fine. Okay, awesome. $3000 or $300, it doesn\u2019t matter what the amount is. Okay, great. Let\u2019s start there. That\u2019s one of our goals.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Now, let\u2019s figure out how we can make our money work for us. Notice the profound shift of let\u2019s start from a place of richness from what we want and let\u2019s work towards that and make our money work, versus you\u2019re bad, you\u2019re bad. Lattes this. No jeans, no vacations. No\u2014just seal yourself up until you\u2019re 68 years old and then one day you can have some compound interest. Not a good place to start. Start from what you want, not what you don\u2019t want.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I cannot agree with what you\u2019re saying more because I am actually in that position. My husband is\u2014I say my husband is financially independent. We\u2019re both financially independent. What\u2019s his is mine. But he doesn\u2019t work anymore. He\u2019s this financial independence guy who did not\u2014he didn\u2019t enjoy his job and now he\u2019s got other things that take up his time that he enjoys doing a lot more.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But he actually just wrote a post a few weeks ago about how he wished he would have done things differently because it was like this mad dash to the finish line. And then, oh, well it could have taken an extra year to get here and that would have been okay, too. I would have had more enjoyment in my thirties if I would have stopped to smell the roses. And it\u2019s not just a fun thing to say. It\u2019s actually something that you should really be doing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yeah, so this is what I was talking about with FIRE. I do want to talk about the thing that I love about FIRE. My actual favorite thing is, anything in America that gets people to save more, I\u2019m a big fan of. We\u2019ve got a horrible savings rate and what I love about FIRE is they came along and said 10% savings rate, 20%? Screw that. Let\u2019s do 60% and they just blew the barn doors off. It was amazing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Now, for most people, we\u2019ve all seen the common threads when there\u2019s a mass media piece. People are like, that\u2019s impossible. Inheritance. And I think it\u2019s inspiring. I thought I was doing well and then they come along and make me realize there\u2019s always another level. I love it. So when they did that, I thought it was absolutely amazing. And guess what, I guess it did get some people thinking like, hey, do I really need to be spending on all this stuff that I really care about? Let me get conscious. Okay? So I love that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I will say that, it attracts a certain type of person and that person tends to have certain things in common. They tend to be hyper-logical. They tend to have the wherewithal to change their lives. If you\u2019re going to have a 50, 60, 70% savings rate, you\u2019re willing to make a sacrifice, which is amazing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But I would also say there\u2019s some troublesome things in FIRE. I would say that there are a lot of words like people saying \u201cI\u2019m unhappy with my job\u201d and if you just go to the financial independence subreddit right now, at the top of the 30 posts people are using words like anxious, hate, hate my rat race job, want to get out, can\u2019t wait for the weekend. Those are not the signs of a healthy financial decision-making framework. That\u2019s simply the sign of somebody who does not like it, and humans don\u2019t like pain so they want to get away from pain.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You know, you asked a question. Well, why don\u2019t you just get a better job? And the answer is always blown off. I don\u2019t want to do that. I just want out. Well, what are you going to do when you finally achieve FIRE? I\u2019m going to sleep. What kind of answer is that? You\u2019re going to sleep? What is that? I would rather people say, you know what, I don\u2019t know that answer right now. But I tell you what, I\u2019m really unhappy. Here are the steps I\u2019m taking. I\u2019m going to go look for a better job. Maybe I find it, maybe not. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">In the meantime, I\u2019m increasing my savings rate. I\u2019m also taking a couple of classes. I bought a couple of courses and some books and I\u2019m meeting with my friends every Saturday morning. Who knows what FIRE will look like, but I\u2019m setting myself up for success when I get there. That is a much healthier perspective than, I hate work. Work is not for me. Get me out of here, and I\u2019ll save 80% and then one day after I take a long nap, I\u2019ll figure it out.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I just want to call out\u2014there are lots of pluses to FIRE. Anything that gets you to save more and be conscious, I\u2019m a huge fan of. But I also want to make sure people study who they are taking advice from. If all the people around you are unhappy at their jobs, saving 70%, spending two hours a night in their spreadsheet, that might not be the role models you want to follow.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>You know, I\u2019ll chime in here because a lot of what you describe kind of describes me. When I first started in this FIRE thing. I worked my first job at literally the worst company to work for in the United States of America. It got that ranking.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Wait, what is it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>You can look that up afterwards. I don\u2019t want to publicly disparage anybody. But yeah, I was very unhappy at that role. I didn\u2019t want to do that long-term and I discovered the concept of FIRE. And I remembered, after I discovered FIRE, I cut everything. I stopped spending basically any money. I made my lunch every single day. I would literally have days where I would show up to work. I would make breakfast, show up to work, listen to podcasts the entire time. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I would leave work, go and tutor or drive Uber and whatever else and then get back at 9:00 or 10:00 o\u2019clock at night. Miserable, right? That lasted for three to six months and then I got a new job at this startup called BiggerPockets.com and really started loving my work from there. But I literally went through a phase that you\u2019re describing of this all out thing because I was so afraid and stuck in my old position.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I couldn\u2019t completely relate to that unhealthy obsession with FIRE for that first maybe two and a half years of my journey towards FIRE. That was kind of the piece there but it did allow me to make up some of that money in those first big investments that kind of propelled my position forward.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Totally agree on both counts and thank you for being so candid about that. I think it\u2019s amazing to hear people who have gone through the process. And I have a concept I want to talk about called Hot to Cool. So, I gave a talk yesterday actually at Business Insider and there are 50, 60, 70 people in the audience. I asked them, what are the words that come to mind for you when you think of money? And what do you think the words were that they shouted out? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Margaritas on the beach.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>No way. Not even close. That never comes up. You guys have been in too many FIRE rooms. I can tell you no one ever says those answers. It\u2019s always the same. Anxious, nervous, overwhelmed, is it too late, confused, stupid, all negative words. Okay, this is average Americana. When you ask normal people, not FIRE nerds or FAT FIRE, LEAN FIRE, none of them, just normal people\u2014that\u2019s how they think about money. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Just think of the words they are using. Overwhelmed, anxious, confused, stupid. Those are hot words. They are very hot. If you think about scale, they are really hot, right? They are boiling over. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We were testing a fitness class for many years and these were people who were trying to lose weight. And we studied the psychology quite a bit of people who struggled with their weight. And they would tell us these heartbreaking stories. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">They would say, I sit down at a restaurant. There\u2019s a plate of nachos in front of me. They would say, it\u2019s like I\u2019m fighting a demon and the demon is trying to convince me to get the entire plate of nachoes. Right? They are literally fighting a battle every day of their lives. That\u2019s a hot emotion. Now, what I told them in the first week is by the end of the program, your emotions will go from hot to cool. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Cool means, you can see a plate of nachos and you can say, you know what? I feel like having a couple of nachos. I\u2019m going to have it. Or you know what? I\u2019m not in the mood. I\u2019m good. Similarly, with money\u2014you know what? My savings rate is 12%. I think that\u2019s pretty good. I\u2019m good. Or you know what I feel like I could use? I want to increase my savings and I\u2019m going to take half of it and go spend it on something. I\u2019m good. Cool. Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">FIRE has a lot of hot emotions. Hot. And that\u2019s not healthy. Hate my job. Depressed. What\u2019s that canonical famous saying? I built my savings but I never built my life. I think that when you go a little bit at sort of the FAT FIRE side, there\u2019s slightly healthier psychology there. Now, I get that FAT FIRE is earning way more money, I get that. I read all these different subreddits. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But you will see that people are not saying, oh my, God\u2014I hate my life. I want to retire. No, they are much cooler about it. They\u2019re like, you know what? I have two kids in private school in Connecticut and this is what it\u2019s going to take so I\u2019ve decided to work extra and dah dah dah. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I want everyone listening, if you\u2019re FAT FIRE, LEAN FIRE, NO FIRE, to realize that when you get your infrastructure in place and when you have a healthy mindset and psychology around money, it shouldn\u2019t be hot. Money should not be exciting. It shouldn\u2019t be dramatic. It shouldn\u2019t be fun. It should be boring. You should log in maybe once every six months. And your real life is outside the spreadsheet.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So if you find yourself listening to a kajillion podcasts, except this one\u2014this one is okay. You guys can listen to this every day. This is the best podcast ever.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I agree.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>But if you\u2019re listening to like 30 FIRE podcasts and 50 FIRE blogs, you have a larger problem. Get the FIRE stuff right, but then flex the other part of your muscle, which is living outside of the spreadsheet. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>And I think it come down to that savings rate. Automate your savings rate. Automate your investing program and you\u2019re going to be on track to achieving FIRE or whatever it is that you consider to be rich, in a pretty short amount of time. Right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>It\u2019s not that hard.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Especially if you can get it up to maybe, let\u2019s call it 30%. If you get to that kind of range, you\u2019re going to be on track. I like to get more aggressive and we\u2019ll obviously continue to encourage you, the listener, to be more aggressive than that 30%. But I like it. It shouldn\u2019t be stressful after you get to a certain point. Once you get to a year of runway or a year of savings in the bank, life is good. You\u2019re going towards FIRE and it\u2019s a matter of how fast. You\u2019re right. How much do you want to give up of my life in order to get there a year faster?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You know what, when my wife started talking about money, I think that having frameworks or general rules are really good in life. For example, I mentioned one rule I have in one year, no debt, etc. Some people have rules like, I wear the same thing every day, right? Some people have those rules. Some people have rules like any flight over five hours, business class. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">One of the things that I talk to my wife about, which I had to remember to compromise because I haven\u2019t had to compromise on money in the last 20 years. Now I\u2019m married so we have to like talk about it and we have to go through that together. I\u2019ve been learning that lesson, which has been very humbling, and I said, you know what? Here\u2019s how I feel about it. As long as we\u2019re doing a savings rate of roughly 20-30%, the rest of it in general is good.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We need to keep an eye on expenses, etc. but if we\u2019re hitting that number, we\u2019re in a good place. We don\u2019t have kids at this point but I said, I\u2019d like to actually be higher than that because we\u2019re in a really fortunate place. Dual-income, no kids, all that. So that took some talking through but I totally agree. If you have a few key numbers you\u2019re hitting correctly, 20-30%. 28% of your pay for housing, etc. You\u2019re in a really good place and all of a sudden, it\u2019s not that hard to gain a substantial amount of money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Love it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Taking financial risks might make sense at the time, but when they turn into big mistakes, we end up stressed and scrambling. Being good with money in and adhering to processes can be tough, especially if you\u2019re running a business. For business owners, it\u2019s important to avoid financial mistakes in a simple accounting solution like FreshBooks can help. FreshBooks is a cloud accounting software that ensures your financials are properly tracked, organized, and your business is compliant come tax-time. Here\u2019s how FreshBooks helps.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>First, it keeps you organized with smart and simple time-tracking for you and your team. Second, when it\u2019s time to collect, you can create and send super polished invoices in about 30 seconds or less. It lets you record and organize expenses with a tap of your mobile camera and finally, it gets you paid in a snap by accepting credit card payments directly on those invoices. <\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><i>Best of all, FreshBooks keeps you compliant with helpful reports you\u2019ll need for tax season. Right now, we\u2019re offering our listeners a free 30-day trial of FreshBooks, no credit card required. Go to FreshBooks.com\/BPMoney and enter BiggerPockets Money into the \u2018How did you hear about us\u2019 section.<\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>One of the topics that we haven\u2019t talked about yet, we talked about getting that automatic savings rate, kind of automate some of these things, investing to the average, all that kind of stuff. You\u2019ve got some really good stuff about increasing your income, and negotiating a raise. Do you want to touch on that real quick before we get more into the changes for the new book?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yeah, so I\u2019ve become known for, if you Google Ramit Sethi and negotiation advice or you subscribed to my newsletter, I sent you a bunch of scripts. Word for word scripts. Now, first of all, Americans hate negotiating. You guys are scared of picking up the phone to order from a restaurant, much less going in and talking to your boss. It\u2019s so funny, you talk to Americans and they\u2019re like, negotiating? What am I going to do, kick in my boss\u2019s door and demand money?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019m like, who said you have to do that? Where\u2019d you come up with that? The concept of negotiation in this country is so bizarre. Now, I grew up with immigrant parents. I tell the story about how my dad, when we bought a car growing up, I literally thought it was normal to go to a car dealership for five days in a row to buy a car. We did that. I thought that was normal. Then I found out, normal people just go and they pick a car and leave with the car that day? I\u2019m like, what?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Anyways, I learned all about negotiation. Anyone with ethnic parents probably does. And I grew up in America so I also know American culture as well. And this dichotomy gave me a really interesting perspective. I negotiated my salary in multiple places, both at jobs and also as a freelancer and consultant as I raised my rates. I started at $20 an hour, eventually raising my rates to thousands of dollars per hour for a client. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So you have to understand that when you move up the value chain at those levels, there\u2019s a lot of things that go into that. You don\u2019t just go into someone else\u2019s office and say, give me $3000 an hour. Nobody will give you that kind of money. You need to understand a lot of things happening behind the scenes, so I started helping people negotiate their salary in my early 20s and I would tell them this. They would say, can you help me? I\u2019d say, yeah, I\u2019ll help you. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Number one, you do everything I say any number two, you take notes. And they were like, yeah, okay. So they would negotiate on average, $6000. The number grew. People start making more money, you can negotiate more. Now, I live in Manhattan and I would say, three times a week, I walk down this street and people will stop me and say, you helped me negotiate $25,000. And I have a course called <i>Dream Job<\/i>. Well, I wanted to put some of the best stuff in this book.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So, I talked first about the psychology of negotiations. The idea that people are worried if they negotiate their offer, it will be rescinded or they\u2019ll get kicked out, which is exactly the opposite. By negotiating, you can actually increase your perceived value, because the only type of people who negotiate are top performers. And then, second, there\u2019s an exact way to do it. You don\u2019t just walk in and say, give me money. Of course, your boss would kick you out. That\u2019s a stupid question.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">What you should do is spend the time doing the work beforehand telling your boss exactly what you\u2019re doing, making sure that the boss knows you are going to accomplish these things and if you do, you are going to ask for a compensation or adjustment. Note the words I\u2019m using. The words are carefully chosen. They\u2019ve been tested. Field tested with thousands of people.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And then, finally, how do you walk in and have the conversation? For example, what if the boss says, we don\u2019t have the budget for that. Well, guess what, I have 30 answers for that question which you can use straight from the book. So I think that most people are underpaid. We did an exercise on my email list and we found that my readers are underpaid on average something like $8,000-$12,000, which blew their minds. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">That\u2019s like saying there\u2019s oxygen in the air. That\u2019s not surprising. Of course you\u2019re underpaid. You don\u2019t know what you\u2019re doing. Now, let\u2019s talk about how to fix it. So, remember for people listening that you can be paid more. Remember that a single $5,000 raise in you 20s when properly invested, can be worth over a million dollars.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Remember that when people negotiate once, tend to negotiate multiple times. And remember that it\u2019s not as scary as you think. It\u2019s just a skill. You can learn it. There are actual words and processes to use. It is one of the best things you can do to increase your earnings. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>So let\u2019s roleplay here. I\u2019m a senior financial analyst making $85,000 and I think I should be paid $98,000, right? How do I construct that argument? What do I say to my boss to get that raise using your kind of philosophy there?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Oh, my God. I love this. I love roleplays. Can we flip it so I\u2019ll be you and you be the boss?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Sure. Exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>That\u2019ll make it easier for us. Okay. So I\u2019m going to e-mail you. Hey, Scott. You know what, I was wondering if we could talk about my role and I really want to understand what it would take to be a top performer in this role. Would you be available to discuss it next Friday or next Monday between 1-3PM, I can come to your office anytime. Great.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Great, so it\u2019s Friday and I come in Friday. Hey Scott, thanks so much for taking the time. First of all, I just want to tell you, I really enjoyed my work. I\u2019ve been working on xyz project and we had a goal, feeling really good about it. Now, the reason that I wanted to talk to you is I want to understand what it takes to make your job easier and also to be a top performer in this role. I have no interest in just being average. I really want to be the best.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I figured I could come to the source and just ask you, what might make your job easier and what would it take for me to be absolutely amazing in this role? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Sure. So I need you to put together our Proformas or PNL to make sure that we\u2019re spot on with our predictive analytics and what our Proforma financial statement or what budget is going to look like next year. I need you to help the team compute the ROI of various ad hoc projects, like the return of an investment of projects like this new blog post that we\u2019re going to be putting in next week. Put in those types of infrastructures. Those sorts of things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>So this is super helpful. I\u2019m taking notes, by the way. So just so I understand, you want me to get the Proforma to you. It sounds like that would be a typical part for this role. How could I do that in a way that would be exceeding expectations? Would it be getting it to you say a week early? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Yeah, I think it would be getting it in on time and getting it in early, and then working with the people who are actually going to be operating against that Proforma. This is what I do for my regular job. I want you to put together this Proforma and work with the stakeholders that are important for each of the revenue and expense categories and make sure that they are driving performance against those things. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">They are driving performance against those things and getting me kind of reports on that and in your opinion, from that perspective\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, I love that. So just so I understand, no one has given you these reports before, right? It seems that it\u2019s up to you to have to go through it yourself and have to figure it out. So exceeding it would be me doing the work for you and taking it off your shoulders, is that right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, great. So that\u2019s number one, and then we do the same thing for number two and number three, and I\u2019m just going to do one other thing. Scott, I totally understand this. Help me get some numerical targets here. So, I get it into you seven days early. Okay, great. But help me understand because right now it seems like a lot of process, which I will do, but I want to know what number I can be working towards.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Sure. So in this case, which would be a financial role, is port function for the business. How are you helping the rest of the team make cases for increased investment, increased budget, increase in the resources they have available so that they can actually expand their targets and drive results faster than before? Show me what that looks like in terms of the amount of return you think you can help facilitate.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, so I\u2019ll tell you what I\u2019m going to do. I\u2019m going to go talk to John. I know that he was in this role four years ago and I\u2019m going to ask him what he would recommend and I\u2019m going to come back to you with a numerical target. It helps me really work faster and better and I will help you get a quality score that we can measure against. How does that sound? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>That sounds perfect.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, great. So, if I do the following things that we talked about, x, y, and z, it sounds like that would be not just average but excellent performance. I just want to make sure I\u2019m not putting words in your mouth. Is that correct?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>That is absolutely correct.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, because that\u2019s what I want to do. I want to just exceed expectations, I don\u2019t want to just be average. And if I exceed these expectations, let\u2019s say in the next six months, by the time we have our next discussion. At that time, one of the things that I would ask for you is that we have a discussion about compensation and adjustment. We don\u2019t have to deal with that right now, but I just want to put that on the table so that we can discuss potentially having it later. Would that be okay as well?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I\u2019d love that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay. Well, thanks so much. I\u2019m going to send you a summary of this in an e-mail and I\u2019ll keep you updated every week. Thanks so much, Scott.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Okay, pause here and just diagnose what happened. First of all, what did you notice, Scott?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Well, I noticed that I had to kind of define what outperformance looked like for this person, right? And then that gives them a solid target to go after, right? So now I kind of said, what do I want in addition to what I\u2019m currently getting?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>That\u2019s really important because you\u2019re the boss. What I think is outperforming might not be the same that you think is outperforming. I might say, oh okay, I\u2019ll have this to you six weeks early. And all you wanted was a week early. Great. I look like a better hero when I outperform your outperforming. But you made him\u2014I love that because you\u2019re exceeding your own expectations just by doing your job. I don\u2019t know what to say. Go ahead, sorry.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You were great. Here\u2019s what I\u2019ll tell you that happened in that conversation that I observed. First of all, Scott, clearly you know your sh*t because that was the best roleplay ever. I mean, you went into it. That was great.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>He\u2019s not just a pretty face.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>So things that I noticed were, first of all, I took it step by step. A to B to C. I first e-mailed about having a conversation. Then I had a conversation. Now, I\u2019m going to send a summary of the conversation and a weekly update for the next six weeks. Six months. And then I\u2019m going to send an e-mail about the next conversation and only then will I walk in to request a salary increase.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Do you see that as I say in the book, 85% of the work is done before you ever walk in the room. So all these delusional people who think you kick down the door and beg for $20,000? Get the hell out of here. You deserve not to get a raise. But the people who really do the work, it\u2019s not just sweet talking\u2014you actually have to be great at your job to get a raise. That\u2019s why it makes sense.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The second thing that I noticed was that you the boss didn\u2019t really know what outperformance was. You were surprised. And what I did as a skilled employee was I pinned you down. I didn\u2019t let you get away with these B.S. process things. Like, of course I\u2019m going to do that process stuff, and then I\u2019m going to come back in six months and you\u2019re going to be like, that\u2019s your job. So I knew that. And I said, okay. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Boss, I really appreciate it. I was very agreeable. But I\u2019d really like a numerical number. It helps me work. Blah blah blah. And I pushed you. And then when you still couldn\u2019t get me one on point number three, I was like, you know what I can do? Because I\u2019m resourceful. I\u2019m going to go talk to John. Who is the Senior Director and he\u2019s going to give me some advice. I\u2019m going to follow up with you. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the final thing I did was I did not bully you into any answers. It\u2019s easy to walk in with a structured plan and get the boss to be like, yeah okay, fine. Just get out of here. At each step, I slowed it down and I said, am I reading you right? Do you agree? Is there anything else I should be thinking about? Because I need you to be bought in before I go off and spend the next six months doing something. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So that\u2019s like the beginning of a conversation, right? You\u2019ll notice it was super agreeable. We were on the same page. Scott, if you were the boss, how would you feel about that conversation? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I\u2019d feel like I\u2019m about to get five things that fixed and implemented that I didn\u2019t have previously that is going to make my life way easier and make results come way faster. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You love it! You\u2019d love it your employee out of the blue came and said, how do I do better at my job? Specifically so I can make your life easier. This is a boss\u2019s dream. Okay, so just to fast forward the whole rest of the example. You now send a summary, make sure that they respond in writing so you have it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Hey, this is what we talked about, compensation and adjustment. Every week, here are the three things. Here\u2019s the goal. Seven percent conversion rate. I\u2019m currently at two. Here are the issues I\u2019m currently working on. Next point. Boom, boom, boom. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">By the time you go in for that six months\u2019 review, there should be no question. You should have crushed the goals that were set out. This is where the hard work really\u2014if you deserve a raise, you\u2019re going to crush it. And then you walk into that final meeting. You set it up. Just again, step by step. You walk in with your Salary.com numbers, your PayScale numbers, any other data you can pull. You say, you know what, boss? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Six months ago, I\u2019m so excited. Because in that conversation, we talked about A, B, and C. We talked about these numbers. Here are the numbers I got. You already know it because I\u2019ve been updating you every week. How do you feel about that? I feel great. He\u2019s going to say, he or she. Oh, my God. My life is so good. You know, I\u2019m in utopia. Okay, great. You know, there\u2019s just one other thing. We also discussed the compensation adjustment. I\u2019d like to discuss that now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Based on what my research shows, this is where you pull out your briefcase or your backpack or whatever. I call it the briefcase technique. I would encourage everyone to Google the briefcase technique. You will see this happen in magic. It\u2019s like truly magic. This is responsible for people getting $30,000-$40,000 raises. I put it out on YouTube for free. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You say, you know what? Based on the research that I\u2019ve found, my role actually should be, I should be compensated at a rate of, you know, between 92-96,000 and I\u2019d like to discuss a compensation based on my performance. Boom. Now you\u2019re having a discussion based on performance, not on does he or she like you and what\u2019s in the budget? It\u2019s like, this is what the market is. Let\u2019s talk about it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And the rest of the script is in the book and I would encourage you to use it and please Instagram me, e-mail me, tweet me. I want to hear your stories about your negotiations. You will be blown away how you can get massive salary negotiations but there\u2019s no tricks. You have to actually be great and you have to be good at your job and then you have to learn communication skills. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>That. That right there. You have to do the work. You have to be great. You have to just say hey, in six months, I want to talk to you about a raise. And other compensation adjustment and then you know, come back in six months and be like okay, you didn\u2019t do any of the work. You have to do the work. You have to present yourself as a valuable employee.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But Scott, if somebody came to you and said, hey, I want to do this. And you said, okay, do all of these things and they do all of those things, how much is your life better? Like a million percent.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Oh, I\u2019d look great. Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I mean, a rich life is about being fundamentally about being excellent at what you do. When you are excellent at what you do, everything falls into place. I remember my parents\u2014again, both immigrants. My dad worked. My mom stayed at home with us. And it was so funny and peculiar the way they behaved about education but in retrospect, I believe they were completely right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Indian people love education, right? They\u2019ll spare no expense on education for their kids. And I can think of one specific example where my parents, like we really did not have a ton of money. We went on vacation. It was driving. My mom would pack lunches. We would stop on the side of the road, eat, and go down, drive to L.A. and visit family. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We hardly ever stayed at a hotel as a family ever. So we grew up pretty middle class. I would say that one thing that surprised me when I was in high school, there was a Kaplan class. You know, these classes, they try to teach you how to take the SAT and stuff, and I was interested in it. It was $600. That\u2019s a lot of money for a class. My parents said no problem. And I don\u2019t know to this day where they had the money or found the money from, but they would spare no expense on education.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Well, when it came to college, they said, look. Of course you\u2019re going to go to college but we don\u2019t have any money so you have to apply to scholarships. And I\u2019m a systems guy. I talk about this in the book. I built a system to apply to 65 scholarships and pay my way through undergrad and grad school. So they really taught me a lot about that. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">What was amazing was their nuanced understanding of psychology which was get in, be good enough to get into a great college and the money will take care of itself. So be excellent first and the money will take care of itself. So I think for all people, whether you be FIRE, whether you want FAT FIRE, whether you just want to take an amazing trip to India or Thailand, if you\u2019re excellent at your job or your business, if you\u2019re excellent at your savings rate, you\u2019re investing your allocation, all the rest of it falls into place. But that excellence is really the core foundation of it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Love it. It\u2019s just like business, too. Like hey, what is your customer? If your customer is your boss, what do they want? How do I serve them as well as I possibly can, and if I do a really, really good job, I\u2019m going to be really indispensable. Right? And that\u2019s amazing. I love it. Great philosophy. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Okay, so Ramit, let\u2019s talk about your book. You originally wrote, <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/i> in 2009. And you\u2019ve updated it for 2019. What is different in this Second Edition?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, so ten years have passed. By the way, March 2009 was the bottom of the recession. Do you know that? It\u2019s so crazy. And the people who bought the book in March \u201909, who followed the advice, are financially set for life. Now, that is a little bit of luck, right? The last ten years have been crazy. I don\u2019t believe in market timing at all, but I also know that people seize opportunity when they see it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And if you had a chance to do it versus the people who sat on the sidelines and said investing is over, blah blah blah, the people who followed have done tremendously well. And I believe the people who buy the book and follow it now will also do tremendously well over their lifetime.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I did a top to bottom update of the book. Every page, I went through. I reviewed it. I updated it with new tools. There are a lot of new tools out there, new accounts. I\u2019ve changed credit cards, bank accounts, etc. I named names in the book so I tell you the best accounts. I also tell you the worst accounts. Like the absolute worst ones and I really go hard on them because they are predatory. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I don\u2019t care if they are never going to cut a deal with me, they are not my customer. You are. The people listening. And so I told you the truth about who are the best and who are the worst. There are also new insights about money and psychology that I\u2019ve had over the last ten years. You know, there\u2019s these things I call invisible scripts. Beliefs that we have that are so deep, we don\u2019t even realize they are visible. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">For example, most people in America believe that real estate is a great investment, always. I happen to disagree. And I talk about that in Chapter 9. I show you how to run the numbers yourself as opposed to saying, I\u2019m throwing away money on rent, which is not true. Did you throw money away on a sandwich you bought yesterday? No. You paid $5 and you ate it. It was a great use of money. Same thing for renting a place. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So there are different ways to look at real estate. I know some people might disagree with me. I welcome the challenge. I think you should make your own decisions but I show you some counterintuitive stuff. I also talked about love and money. So getting married. Going through that process, and I\u2019ve shared some things I never really shared publicly with my wife\u2019s blessing, that we wanted to talk about because we find that people don\u2019t talk about these kinds of things publicly. It\u2019s really behind closed doors and I want to shine the light on it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So lots of updates. Lots of new ways to look at it. Also lots of things that I talk about in terms of spending psychology. You know, everybody teaches us how to save, but nobody teaches us how to spend. And that is a very different way of looking at money. I think people will find that whether you\u2019ve heard of the book before, whether you have it, or whether you\u2019ve never gotten it, it\u2019s a very different book than most other personal finance books and I think you\u2019ll really enjoy it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>What are some of the intro to the book? You talk about some of the key mistakes you made in the First Edition, which I think is really cool that you can kind of look back and do that. I have a book called <i>Set for Life<\/i> as well and there\u2019s a couple of things that I would change that I think are mistakes\u2014I need to go and update that. I need to include travel. Oh, I\u2019ll get to those at another point. This is your show.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">What were some of those mistakes that you had in your book that you think\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Well, I\u2019m really glad you asked that. There were a couple of things that were just, accounts have changed. And that\u2019s normal. That\u2019s to be expected. I really should not have included interest rates. That\u2019s a massive mistake I made because when I wrote it, interest rates were 5% on the accounts. Like the day after they published, it dropped. Just like a rock. And I started getting these e-mails, and by the way, I\u2019ve gotten these e-mails for the last decade. And they are like, \u201cHey mother-effer, where\u2019s the 5% interest rates? You\u2019re a liar\u201d. And I\u2019m like, oh my, God. Plus, it doesn\u2019t even matter. The amount they have in their savings account is like $300. I\u2019m like, we\u2019re talking about pennies. Anyway, I shouldn\u2019t have done that. So I changed that. And you know, so that was another thing. I also think that I\u2019ve matured over time, so to be very honest with you, I had some jokes in there that I just don\u2019t\u2014they don\u2019t align with who I am now. As somebody who has matured, I think that I wanted the book to be very inclusive of everyone. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">In fact, if I can show you something, one of the things I\u2019m most proud of and I\u2019d fight the publisher for this, was to show people\u2019s photos and their rich life stories. And these are people who used the book to create their rich life. And some of them are massive wins and some of them are modest. One guy, in here, he writes that he retired and he and his wife, they retired from full-time work at 33 and 35. They travel around in Airstream RVs\u2014<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>That\u2019s Steve. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yeah, that\u2019s right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I know him.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I\u2019ll bet. You are like on top of it. So what I love about that is, first of all, that\u2019s not my rich life but that is his and his wife, and I love that they used the book to accomplish it. I also love that there\u2019s men, women, black, white, young, old. And I\u2019m so proud to be able to share their stories because I think \u2018rich\u2019 has traditionally been thought of as one type of person. And I want to shatter that myth, right? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We can all live rich lives. You can have ten million dollars, you can have $50,000, you can have an extra $20 bucks a month. But if you are aligned with how your spending is working and where you\u2019re spending your time and money, you can be living a rich life, too. So just to bring it back, in the last book, I really dialed in on all the tactics and I was perfect on that, really good. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But I think that I neglected some of the psychology which I have now corrected. I made a couple of comments which I think some people wrote me some very thoughtful notes saying, Hey Ramit, I love your book. It\u2019s earned me a ton of money. But it makes it a little difficult to share because there are a couple of jokes in there that really\u2014they\u2019re just not appropriate. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I wrote back and I said, you know what? Thank you. Thank you for being honest enough to write that to me. For being so thoughtful. And I can tell that you took the time\u2014you didn\u2019t have to take time out of your day to send me that note. Like, the way they wrote it was so caring that I knew that it was actually doing myself a disservice to not acknowledge that. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I\u2019m very proud to have grown as the decade has gone by and I think the book really reflects that. I think people will enjoy it. The jokes are still there. I call the ball when it comes to crypto-lunatics. And others. I call it out exactly as it is. But I also think that this is a book that you can be proud to read whether you are in your 20s starting out or in your 40s or 50s. Age doesn\u2019t matter. It\u2019s just about your mentality about your rich life. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>You mean bitcoin isn\u2019t going to be my key to financial freedom? <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>All the bitcoin people hate me because I call them out like very early and also\u2014it\u2019s funny. The bitcoin people. They used to have it on their LinkedIn profile, right? Bitcoin expert. Hey guys, where\u2019d you go? All the profiles are wiped and now it says CBD expert. You\u2019re not a CBD expert, my friend\u2014you\u2019re just jumping from one thing to the next.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Wait, that\u2019s not a sound financial plan?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>My favorite book in the whole insanity of this crypto phase was when Kodak released Kodak coin and their market capitalization tripled overnight. I was like, oh wow, that is going to change the fortunes of Kodak. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Oh, my goodness. My favorite story about the bitcoin was the guy who went\u2014he bought bitcoin really low, went really high, sold it, invested it in something else that, spoiler alert, went to zero. And then had this huge bitcoin capital gains tax bill that he couldn\u2019t pay. Because like, $75,000 tax bill that he couldn\u2019t pay because he had lost all of his bitcoin earnings. If you make money in bitcoin, cash out now and stick it under your mattress.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You know, I\u2019ve got to tell you something. First of all, that\u2019s a horrible story. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>It is.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Actually, most things about bitcoin are horrible, including why it is what it is. I remember writing this book and I remember sitting in a coffee shop and I spent six hours writing two pages. Because I\u2019m kind of rusty. I hadn\u2019t written a book in ten years. So I was writing about bitcoin and I had looked at the writing I\u2019d done and it was garbage. It was like, on the one hand this, and on another hand, that. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And I found that I was pulling my punches, that I wasn\u2019t being honest. The reason that the book had done so well and has helped so many hundreds of thousands of people is that I just came out and I told you exactly what I had seen. Now, you need to believe me. You need to trust me, and I happen to be right about a lot of things. But I think people want to hear what somebody that they respect thinks about the world. And that\u2019s a great reason that people listen to, for example, Oprah Winfrey, who has earned her credibility and trust over decades.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So when I found myself pulling punches and saying, well, on one hand, this. And I tore it up and started it again. And I think the bitcoin section for one, is one where you see the edges back. I tell you exactly what I think. I\u2019m not gratuitous. I tell you exactly why they do it. What\u2019s the psychology? What are the analogies? And you can start to identify, hey, do I want to invest in crypto? If so, fine, but let me have some parameters. Let me have a framework around it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Meanwhile, let me look at what most people are doing. It\u2019s called \u2018dumb money\u2019 for a reason. And let me help you understand, what is this psychology that gets people into fad after fad after fad? So you know, I do want to have a little fun with it. I think money can be fun. But I also want people who can apply it to their own life. If it\u2019s not bitcoin, it might be another fad. So I want people to understand what goes into these decisions and how I can apply them to your own rich life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Well, that brings up an interesting point where in the beginning of your book, you say that you made three mistakes. I disagree. You made two mistakes. Your second mistake was that you said you were overbearing. Are you too overbearing? And I don\u2019t agree with that at all. I think you were, let\u2019s call it <i>Forceful<\/i>, no let\u2019s call it <i>authoritative<\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Appropriately bearing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Appropriately appareling. You named your book, <i>I Will Teach You to be Rich<\/i>. You didn\u2019t name it, I might teach you to be rich\u2014maybe this book might teach you something about money. <i>I Will Teach You to Be Rich. <\/i>You have to back that up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Thank you for saying that. You know, usually start off a sense with, you had three mistakes. They usually complete it by saying, you had 30 mistakes. And I\u2019m like, thank you so much. I mean, this is the best day of my life. I will say this\u2014you know what? I love having a strong point of view. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you\u2019re still listening to this podcast, or if you turned it off, that\u2019s fine. I\u2019m not for everybody and I totally acknowledge that. If you\u2019re still listening, I think you\u2019re going to find that the book is written exactly as I talk, and when people tell me that, I consider it a compliment because it\u2019s very easy to water down your writing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">But what I want to do is make money fun, is to challenge you, is to have some fun with it. We can tell jokes about each other and you can still become rich. you can become extremely knowledgeable. You will know more about investing, asset allocation, different ladders than anybody else in America. That is the gift that I wanted to create, which is to teach normal people, not just nerds about personal finance. But normal people can give it to your friends or your parents and they can become really smart about money.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I was overbearing, though, I\u2019ve got to say. What I realize is in the FIRE community, it\u2019s really great because in the past, I said your rich life is yours but I had one way to get there, which was 10-20% invest save, compound, maybe start a business. But like, that\u2019s sort of the caputilate rate. That\u2019s sort of the general path. FIRE came and they just blew that out of the water. They said, no, I\u2019m going to save 50-60%.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And so what I have come to maturely understand is, your rich life destination is yours but also how you get there is whores. You better not want to live in Manhattan. It just might not appeal to you. And now, I get that. And I should have respect it back then. I wasn\u2019t mature enough to. But you know what, some people are like hey, I live with my husband or wife. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">We live in a quiet ranch. We don\u2019t care about going to the newest bar or whatever. We enjoy ourselves. We like being outdoors. Respect. You have consciously decided\u2014that\u2019s the title of Chapter 4, Conscious Spending. You\u2019ve consciously decided where to spend your time and money. Who am I to say no? If anything, I should say, tell me more. How\u2019d you decide that? Teach me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Now, I might not want to live on a ranch. I\u2019d rather be dead than live on a ranch, but\u2014I love that you decided to do it. And you\u2019ve changed your whole life for it. So I think I was overbearing. I think that the book now\u2014allows for a bigger diversity of different people. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">For example, Steve, who travels in an RV. That\u2019s why I\u2019m proud to feature him and other stories like his in the book. So I think it doesn\u2019t matter whether you wanted to live FIRE-FIRE, FAT-FIER, this one you got this. No FIRE. You will find a story in the book of people who resonate with you and I think there\u2019s nothing more powerful than finding a group of people like you. To me, that is rich.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Wow, that\u2019s beautiful. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>All right, so before we go and kind of get to our <i>Famous Four <\/i>and the closing statement of the show, I want to kind of see if you\u2019re open to discussing your viewpoint of why you\u2019re not a fan of real estate investing. And let\u2019s exclude the topic of buying our first home. I think we all have a similar viewpoint on hey, you probably shouldn\u2019t buy the nicest, fanciest home if you\u2019re trying to become rich as a smart investment. bBut what about property investing in particular? What\u2019s your approach to that or how you think about that as a suggested investment asset class for people?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, thank God. First of all, by taking the first house, your primary residence out of the equation, we\u2019ve now taken out like 98% of the bad decisions in real estate. If you want to invest in a rental property, God Bless! I\u2019m all for it. Run the numbers. And I find that people who invest in rental properties are pretty disciplined in general. They are disciplined about cash flow. They speak to other people, they understand risk tolerance. I love it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The one thing that I would say that they are a little bit less disciplined about is their overall portfolio. You will typically find a lot of real estate investors way overweight in real estate and they don\u2019t have equities to balance it out. And you see this because what happens is, they start buying. They start to understand leverage and you know, they start to get better at it so they\u2019re like, oh yeah, I\u2019m going to roll my next thing over and get two and three and four. Now I\u2019m really cash flowing in that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">It\u2019s like, all right. That\u2019s all great when things are going up. But like, what happens when they are not? So I would encourage real estate investors\u2014not speculators\u2014to diversify their portfolio, to make sure that you\u2019ve got stocks, make sure that you\u2019re thinking about your cash equivalents and all those things. But aside from that, I have nothing but great things to say about true real estate investors.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I have a lot of things to say about mom and pop who bought a house for $200,000, sold it four or five years later for $450,000 and they magically think they made $250,000 as if that\u2019s a good thing. First of all, you didn\u2019t make that much. Second of all, even if you did, that was horrible performance. Even if you could, you could have put it into index funds and made way more. Third, you are intentionally undercounting all the phantom costs, taxes, maintenance, all those fees. But that\u2019s mom and pop. We\u2019re talking investors? I\u2019m double thumbs up on that.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Okay, got it. One of the things I think is interesting about what you said there is, people overweight in real estate investing. I think that that\u2019s true for a certain percentage of people but I think the real problem for investors long-term is that real estate as an asset class, performs worse as a stock market as an asset class, unless you\u2019re applying leverage in a consistent way. So it\u2019s like balance of risk and return. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Listen, I want to say that, but I\u2019m in the lion\u2019s den here. Come on, I\u2019m on BiggerPockets, man. You want to talk about returns? Yes, in general, real estate asset class returns are way less than stocks. People find that hard to believe. What about San Francisco? What about New York? Well, what about the rest of the cities? And also, what about the fact that you can\u2019t predict which ones will go up before it happens?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So leverage is a great powerful concept. Leverage also works on the way down as well. And most people, they just see leverage as, you know in Super Mario World, you get the star and you go triple speed? Yeah, leverage is great when you are going well. The minute it drops, even if it drops 10%, it can be devastating to your returns.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">The point is not to stay away from real estate investing always. I\u2019ve never said that. The point is to run the numbers and make sure you\u2019re managing your risk. I think that\u2019s a fair perspective. I think if you can argue with that, then you might not think of it as an investment and you might have a religious belief about it. I have zero interest in religious conversations. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I think that\u2019s a totally fair comment, and to go back to your point about the homeowner buying a place for $200,000 and selling it for $450,000 25 years later\u2014the point I\u2019m trying to make is that in the early years of that hold period, they\u2019ve got a loan and they\u2019re using leverage. So the returns are reasonable in those first few years. That\u2019s also where they\u2019re at the biggest risk because that\u2019s where the market tanks or you\u2019re completely wiped out. You\u2019re under water.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">As you pay it off, you\u2019re making no money. You\u2019re literally just making inflation at that point down the line. And that applies to investors in rental properties, that applies to home owners as well, and I think that\u2019s the trap that kind of really compounds against the homeowner to a certain extent.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Man, I feel like we\u2019re best friends here. How\u2014this is like so great? I 100% agree. Yes. I\u2019m so glad because I think there\u2019s nuance in real estate investing and what I think I just have zero tolerance for is this idea that I need to buy a home because if I don\u2019t, I\u2019m going to get priced out and I need to do it for the tax deduction. Also, the stock market is gambling. I don\u2019t understand it. All of those are na\u00efve perspectives.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If you want to make the biggest purchase of your life, whether it\u2019s primary residence or it is an investment, you need to get smart. You need to have understood what a lot of people did. You should be pretty good at this, borderline expert. You should be highly familiar with all the terms and you should seek out disconfirming evidence. If you\u2019re only reading sites that are called \u201cHow to Make a Kajillion Dollars on Real Estate\u201d, then you\u2019re an idiot.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">If, however, you\u2019re reading, \u201cPro Real Estate\u201d, \u201cAnti-Real Estate\u201d\u2014you\u2019re reading all of them and making an educated decision, then you\u2019re going to be in a way, way better spot. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Fantastic. Completely agree. Let me and Mindy share what we\u2019re doing with our housing and let me see what your reaction to that is. Okay, so I over the last four years have lived in two duplexes, right? So I bought a duplex, moved into it, fixed it up, rented out the other half. They paid down the mortgage, and then I have a roommate which helps to cover a little bit extra.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So basically, living for free after all the maintenance expenses, move out, keep it as a rental property. Mindy, do you want to tell them what you are doing?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I buy incredibly unattractive houses. I make them look significantly more beautiful while I\u2019m living in them as my primary residence, and then after two years, I sell them. I pay no capital gains taxes, thanks to the Section 121 Exclusion, and then I do it again. So I\u2019m taking that $100,000 and putting it in my pocket instead of Uncle Sam\u2019s pocket. And I did not fair so well in the downturn. The house that I bought in the beginning of 2006 and was ready to sell at the bottom of 2010 was not the best choice.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>You\u2019ve done this eight times, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I\u2019ve done this eight times. And I\u2019m ready to sell the current one for $270,000ish more than what I bought it for, more than what I have into it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Have you taken anything out over those ten, 15 years?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I\u2019ve only lived in this house for\u2014well, it\u2019s been six years now. But yeah, no every time I sell it, I take all the money out of it and I put it in the stock market.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Oh, interesting. Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I put 20% down because I\u2019m not going to pay Private Mortgage Insurance. And then yeah, we cash flow the repairs. At the time, my husband was a computer programmer so that was a lot easier to cash flow those repairs. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yeah, I mean, overall, one thing that I hear both of you doing is you\u2019re very intentional seeking about your decisions. Also I hear sacrifices, right? Scott, you are living in a duplex with a roommate. That\u2019s a sacrifice. It makes it financially very attractive but very few people would be willing to do that. So I think that\u2019s very thoughtful about you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And Mindy mentioning that you\u2019re taking it out, you\u2019re putting it into the stock market so you have a diversified portfolio and you\u2019re taking advantage of all minimizing taxes and you\u2019re living in it while you\u2019re upgrading it. So there\u2019s lots of sacrifices I hear, and lots of thought. I think that\u2019s great. This, to me, is like the bare minimum of thought that needs to go into real estate. And I know you\u2019ve only given me the high level but clearly, you know what you\u2019re doing. That\u2019s a lot of thought. I think that\u2019s awesome. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I think that the timing issue is one that, if I\u2019m playing from a risk-mitigation perspective or risk-management, I want to be planning for failure. I never want to get caught off guard so I want to be saying okay, if my next investment goes down because the market goes down, what am I going to do? I want to have a full playbook for what happens. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I\u2019ll give you an example. My assistant created something called a travel protocol. So when I travel, my whole life changes, right? My plants magically get watered while I\u2019m out of town. My e-mails gets handled in a different way. If somebody calls me and needs to reach me immediately, it\u2019s all like routed different. I love that kind of stuff. I love convenience. That\u2019s my travel protocol and if things go bad and I\u2019m late to a meeting, we have that protocol as well. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So I think creating what I call a failure expectation. Just expect you\u2019re going to fail sometimes and make a playbook for it. When times are good, that\u2019s awesome. Because when bad things happen, you just pull out the binder and you read it and boom. It\u2019s like a pilot. They don\u2019t learn how to handle engine failure when the engine fails. They\u2019ve planned it all way ahead of time. So I think if you do that with your money, you\u2019re in a great place. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>And I think we can all agree that it is not a wise financial move to live you know, just to save up $40,000 over the course of five years and put all of that down on the nicest, biggest, single-family home you can possibly qualify for and put yourself into a paycheck by paycheck, living paycheck to paycheck situation. Which, sadly, it seems like what most people seem to do with these first-home purchases. These are all liquidity on that home purchase.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>But the lender said I could. The lender said I could afford this very, very high price.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yeah, I mean one of the reasons I wrote this book is that I was so tired of hearing these stories about people being taken advantage of. My mom was a schoolteacher for a long time and towards the end of her career, I looked at her Prospectus, and I was just like mortified. The scams that these investment companies run on California schoolteachers is truly unbelievable. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">And you know, they write it on these colorful, like a kid wrote it in crayon, it looks like really friendly. And meanwhile, it\u2019s just like, if you actually know what the words mean, it\u2019s just saying like, we are screwing you left and right. And I wanted to write a book for people so that they knew how the game is played. In fact, I have a whole chapter on The Myth of Expertise and how all these Wall Street guys, etc., it\u2019s like all B.S. and I\u2019ll show you these crazy stories you wouldn\u2019t even believe. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I found some great ones and some new ones, too. And what you realize is, you can actually be smarter and better performing than all of these fancy stuff that people do. But it\u2019s actually like really boring. So when people ask me like, Ramit, what\u2019s your cool investment strategy? And I\u2019m just like, yeah I have like 90% of my portfolio is in index funds and I hardly ever check it and it just like runs automatically, they\u2019re just like\u2014what? Where\u2019s the cool stuff? And I\u2019m like, I\u2019d rather be rich than be cool. So there you go.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I love it. I\u2019d rather be rich than be cool. And guess what? That\u2019s Mindy and I. We do the same thing. All index funds, right? That\u2019s the majority, index funds. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yeah, well I\u2019m transitioning out of stocks that we\u2019ve picked that have been really, really good but they are like, outliers. So we\u2019re moving into index funds. Every year, I have to reduce my taxable income enough so I can pay as little capital gains taxes as possible. That\u2019s a story for another day. Yeah, this was fantastic, Ramit. I have really enjoyed speaking with you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Well, me too. Thank you for having me. I\u2019ve got to say, I love this conversation, everything from your real estate decision-making to the negotiation roleplay, like I\u2019m so glad we got a chance to do this.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Scott is not just a pretty face. But we\u2019re not done yet. You\u2019re our new best friend. We still have our <i>Famous Four<\/i>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I\u2019m ready.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Okay. These are the same four questions and one command that we ask of all of our guests. What is your favorite finance book?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I love <i>Bogohead\u2019s Guide to Investing<\/i>. I think it\u2019s fantastic.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yes, rest in peace, Jack.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I always think it\u2019s funny that they\u2019ve got a whole forum for Bogoheads. The concept of Bogoheads for those that don\u2019t know is like, hey, I\u2019m going to follow Jack Bogle, founder of Vanguard\u2014how do I invest in index funds and passively just kind of follow the market and be average? And I was like, how much discussion can you have about this concept? But they find a way at Bogleheads. I think it\u2019s Bogleheads.com, too.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">All right, what was your biggest money mistake?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I took my high school money and I invested in stocks. I thought that investing meant picking stocks and I lost half my money immediately. In fact, by the way, that was so\u2014I also took scholarship money. That\u2019s what I meant. I took my scholarship money, which they wrote the check to me and lost half of that money. That was not good. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">So lesson learned, but that\u2019s what got me interested in money, because I was humbled. I was so smart, you know. 1999, 2000, not that smart, actually. And I started learning how long-term, low-cost investing actually works. And the answer is not picking stocks that go out of business four weeks later.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Wow, Scott, do you have any hot stock tips to share with Ramit?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Please don\u2019t. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>I have the same story right out of college. I invested in Chinese stocks, right? Because hey, this company has $100 million in cash, no debt, and trading at $70 million. How can I possibly lose? Well, everybody other than me knew that Chinese companies don\u2019t always report exactly accurate financials. So, lesson learned. Turned my money about half.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I think this is interesting. This is the second week in a row that the guest invested scholarship money in the stocks. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Oh, really?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yeah. Last week, Dawn Brennigan was on and she did the same thing. She invested some of her extra scholarship money, which I thought was interesting.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>That\u2019s very interesting.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Okay, what is your best piece of advice for people who are just starting out?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>It\u2019s not that hard. This is not that hard. It\u2019s not that hard to make a lot of money. This is a skill. It\u2019s a skill like anything else. Don\u2019t let anyone tell you that you need to be a genius at picking stocks or that you need to know a lot of math. This stuff is not that hard. And I just want to keep saying that over and over because I want people to know whether you\u2019re young, old, man, woman\u2014it has nothing to do with that. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I intentionally chose to feature stories of different people, different ages of sophistication levels, different genders, different everything. Because I want to show you that you can take control and also that nobody else is coming to do it for you. So I really\u2014I just want to let\u2014my dream is for the people listening to this to take control. My real fantasy, besides some of the stuff I talk about in the book\u2014would be for people to listen to this to write me. Send me an e-mail. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I have my e-mail address on the back cover and all throughout the book. Please. I\u2019m on Instagram. I read every DM. I read every e-mail. And I would love for you to send me a note saying, hey, I heard you on the podcast. You know what? Here\u2019s what I agree with you on. Here\u2019s what I disagree with you on. I got your book. I followed it. I did the six week program and here\u2019s where I am now. Your life will be completely different. In less than six weeks. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">By the way, six weeks are for people who are like barely literate. If you can spend a little time, you can do this in three weeks. And your money will be totally flowing where it needs to go. It will be in control. And best of all, you\u2019ll have a totally different way of looking at your rich life. That\u2019s my fantasy, that you send me an e-mail or a DM and tell me what you did. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Love it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>I love it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>All right, what is your favorite joke to tell at parties? If you don\u2019t have one, Mindy, I think has been eagerly anticipating telling a joke here.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Okay, okay. Let me try one. I haven\u2019t tried this. I\u2019m going to try it for the first time here. Okay. A crypto-investor walks into a\u2014wait, there is no such thing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>That\u2019s the best one. Okay.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Sorry, speculators. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>So one of our listeners sent this one in. What nationality is Santa?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>I don\u2019t know.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>North Polish. Which is now my favorite new joke.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Amazing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Oh, dear. All right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Okay, now are we ready for the command?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Tell me where people can find out more about you.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You can find me on my website, <i>IWillTeachYoutobeRich.com. <\/i>We have a newsletter there. We have 400,000-500,000 people on there. We\u2019d love to welcome you on and show you some of our best stuff. I\u2019m on Instagram at Ramit. I\u2019m on Twitter, @Ramit. My book is called <i>I Will Teach You to be Rich<\/i> and it is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Books-A-Million. It\u2019s at every library and every bookstore there is, and I would love to hear from you. I\u2019d love to connect. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I really genuinely love to hear what you took away from this conversation. There\u2019s a reason that I love what I do and I\u2019ve been doing it for almost 20 years now and you can tell I\u2019m as fired up today as I was when I wrote my first blog post in August 2004. And it\u2019s because I get to hear from people who listen and read and follow. So, that\u2019s why I appreciate the opportunity today. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>We are delighted to have you. Your passion is just outstanding. You are obviously very knowledgeable about this. You love the debate. You love the challenge, which I think is fantastic. And just to piggyback on what you said there, I see two versions of the book on Amazon. The one you want is released May 14, 2019 not the 2009 version.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>The new release, it has a black cover. They took me off the cover because she said, look, if you were like George Clooney, we\u2019d put you on the cover. They put me on the back cover now. I was demoted from my own book, but hey, it\u2019s good to know where I stand.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>It sounds like you have some great advice there. Just kidding.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yes. So we will include links to all these things in our Show Notes, which can be found at BiggerPockets.com\/MoneyShow73. Ramit, thank you for your time today. This was fantastic. I thoroughly enjoy having a new best friend.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>Thank you, Mindy, Scott, I appreciate it. So much. And thanks to everyone listening.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Okay, we\u2019ll talk to you soon.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Ramit: <\/b>You guys are great. Thanks so much.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>All right, that was Ramit Sethi from <i>IWillTeachYoutobeRich.com<\/i>. Mindy, what\u2019d<span class=\"Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0 <\/span>you think?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Oh, my goodness. Did I fangirl too much, because I feel like I kept it in check okay. But every once in a while, I just found myself like, wow, everything he is saying is so true. I can\u2019t believe how amazing that show was.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Yeah, I think\u2014this is a guy who has clearly passionately studied how to help ordinary people build wealth and improve their financial situation for a very long period of time. And really thought through a lot of different scenarios and the context of people, the psychology of what they\u2019re going through, all that kind of stuff. And you know, it\u2019s a great privilege to get a chance to talk with them and go toe-to-toe with them, challenge a couple of ideas, and hear his perspective. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">I was amazed at how similar our thought processes were\u2014yours, mine, and his, in terms of building wealth, even given the differences in how we kind of construct some of our arguments around personal finance. He\u2019s obviously less FIRE and more this concept of rich, and what that means as an emotional state and a place of happiness. And we\u2019re pretty mathematical about it and hey, it\u2019s about when your passive income exceeds your lifestyle expenses. At least in terms of financial freedom.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yes, but I really like that he brings that up. If you just doggedly pursue this one goal, what are you going to do when you get there?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>All you have is one goal. Then once you hit that goal, what\u2019s next? What are you going to do? I\u2019m going to sleep. Okay, great. That\u2019s a day. Maybe two days if you\u2019re super tired. What are you going to do after that? So I really love that he addresses that in this book. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Yeah, I think that\u2019s really important also along that point, like hey, it\u2019s not about getting away from something I hate, a bad situation. Maybe that\u2019s how I was kind of approaching things in my first year or two on my journey to financial freedom, right? It\u2019s about going towards what you want at the end and backing into that and using money as a tool to get to that outcome. Now, that\u2019s a really important point and a reasonable criticism over some sections of the FIRE movement, maybe inspired along the wrong reasons at first.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yes, and you know, like he said, okay, you hate your job. What are you doing about it? Why don\u2019t you go get a better job? Oh, I can\u2019t. Well, are you looking for reasons to be miserable? I mean, I\u2019ve worked. Not the same company that you did. The award-winning worst company in the world to work for or whatever. But I\u2019ve worked for a company that I really, really, really hated. I hated\u2014I liked my job but I really hated my micromanaging boss. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">Okay. Maybe it would have been better to go get a job that didn\u2019t have a micromanaging boss. Check. Now I do something that I love to do. I get to do this. Every day and it\u2019s fantastic. And I\u2019ve never been happier. And I am financially independent and I don\u2019t have to work. But I choose to because I love what I do. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\">You have to be doing something. I didn\u2019t have a hobby. My kids were my hobby. I really love that point that he just continues to talk about all throughout the book. You need to get your life in order. You\u2019re going to lead a rich life. He\u2019s not teaching you to just have a lot of money. He will teach you to have a rich life. By the book, called <i>I Will Teach You to be Rich. <\/i><\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Yeah, and what gets me up in the morning every day to do what I do is I believe in the concept of financial freedom as a specific of that rich life. That\u2019s kind of my passion. That\u2019s the deal here, right? When you move towards that and live a rich life, achieve financial freedom, whatever you want to call it. That is when I think people have a chance to live up to their potential with these kinds of things. That\u2019s the advantage of moving towards this goal is you can reach\u2014you have greater odds of fulling your potential, being happy and making a difference in the world and that kind of thing. So that\u2019s my little schpeel there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>Yep, I think financial independence can walk hand in hand with Ramit\u2019s rich life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Love it. Absolutely. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>This was awesome. Okay, Scott, should we get out of here?<\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Scott: <\/b>Let\u2019s get out of here. <\/span><\/p>\n<p class=\"p1\"><span class=\"s1\"><b>Mindy: <\/b>From episode 73 of the BiggerPockets Money podcast, this is Scott Trench and Mindy Jensen and we are going to go lead our own rich lives. <\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<h2>Watch the Podcast Here<\/h2>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Ramit Sethi Will Teach You How To Be Rich! | BiggerPockets Money Podcast 73\" width=\"640\" height=\"360\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/EchIgzp6TDM?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/p>\n<h2>Help Us Out!<\/h2>\n<p>Help us reach new listeners on\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/biggerpockets-money-podcast\/id1330225136\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">iTunes<\/a>\u00a0by leaving us a rating and review! It takes just 30 seconds.\u00a0Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n<h2>Podcast Sponsors<\/h2>\n<p><strong><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-95450 no-display appear\" src=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review-300x66.png\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review-300x66.png 300w, https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review-768x168.png 768w, https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review.png 775w\" alt=\"Fundrise\" width=\"300\" height=\"66\" title=\"\">Fundrise<\/strong>\u00a0enables you to invest in high-quality, high-potential private market real estate projects. I\u2019m talking anything from high rises in D.C. to multi-families in L.A. \u2014 institutional-quality stuff. And each project is carefully vetted and actively managed by Fundrise\u2019s team of real estate pros.<\/p>\n<p>Their\u00a0 high-tech, low-cost online platform lets you track the progress of every single project, and keep more of the money you make. Oh, and by the way, you don\u2019t have to be accredited.<\/p>\n<p>Visit\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/fundrise.com\/bpmoney\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Fundrise.com\/bpmoney<\/a>\u00a0to have your first 3 months of fees waived.<\/p>\n<h2>Second Sponsor<\/h2>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-74647 no-display appear\" src=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/08\/freshlogo-300x225.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"225\" title=\"\">The all-new\u00a0<strong>FreshBooks<\/strong>\u00a0is accounting software that makes running your small business easy, fast and secure. Spend less time on accounting and more time doing the work you love. For a 30-day unrestricted trial, go to\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/freshbooks.com\/bpmoney\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">FreshBooks.com\/bpmoney<\/a><\/p>\n<h2>In This Episode We Cover:<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><strong>What rich means<\/strong> to Ramit<\/li>\n<li>Tips on how to be rich for people who are <strong>living paycheck to paycheck<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>What a <strong>CEO strategy<\/strong> is<\/li>\n<li>His advice on <strong>cutting off spending<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>What a <strong>tripod of stability<\/strong> is<\/li>\n<li>On his <strong>investment portfolio<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>The concept of the one-year <strong>emergency fund<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>The $3 question versus the <strong>$30,000 questions<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>What <strong>people<\/strong> mostly do with their money<\/li>\n<li>Things to do to stay on track with your <strong>goals<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>How to talk to <strong>your partner<\/strong> about money<\/li>\n<li>His favorite thing about <strong>FIRE<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>What a<strong> hot to cool concept<\/strong> is<\/li>\n<li>On increasing his income and <strong>negotiating<\/strong> his raise<\/li>\n<li>The <strong>psychology<\/strong> of negotiation<\/li>\n<li>Negotiation <strong>role-play<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>What a <strong>briefcase technique<\/strong> is<\/li>\n<li>The difference between the first and second editions of <strong><em>I Will Teach You to Be Rich<\/em><\/strong><\/li>\n<li><strong>Mistakes<\/strong> he made in his first book that needed to be updated<\/li>\n<li>Why he is not a fan of <strong>real estate investing<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>Scott and Mindy\u2019s real estate <strong>decision-making<\/strong><\/li>\n<li><strong>And SO much more!<\/strong><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Links from the Show<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/forums\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Forums<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/biggerpockets-money-podcast-03-cutting-your-grocery-bill-in-half-erin-chase\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Money Podcast 03: Cutting Your Grocery Bill in Half with Erin Chase from $5 Dinners<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/biggerpockets-money-podcast-04-debt-free-rosemarie-groner\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Money Podcast 04: Eliminating Over $30,000 in Debt Through Extreme Organization with Former<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/biggerpockets-money-podcast-04-debt-free-rosemarie-groner\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"> State Trooper Rosemarie Groner<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/newsletter-signup\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Newsletter Signup &#8211; I Will Teach You To Be Rich<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jerryspringertv.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">The Jerry Springer Show<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bogleheads.org\/forum\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Bogleheads forum<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bogleheads.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Bogleheads Investing Advice and Info<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Books Mentioned in this Show<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2HpC85T\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>I Will Teach You To Be Rich<\/em><\/a> by Ramit Sethi<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/amzn.to\/2VvQG7K\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The Bogleheads&#8217; Guide to Investing<\/em><\/a> by Mel Lindauer, Michael LeBoeuf, and Taylor Larimore<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Tweetable Topics:<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li>&#8220;You should be average, and you should be happy with it.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22You%20should%20be%20average,%20and%20you%20should%20be%20happy%20with%20it.%22%20BP%20Money%20Podcast%2073%20biggerpockets.com\/moneyshow73%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;Start with what you want, not with what you don&#8217;t want.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22Start%20with%20what%20you%20want,%20not%20with%20what%20you%20don&#039;t%20want.%22%20BP%20Money%20Podcast%2073%20biggerpockets.com\/moneyshow73%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;Having frameworks and general rules are really good in life.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22Having%20frameworks%20and%20general%20rules%20are%20really%20good%20in%20life.%22%20BP%20Money%20Podcast%2073%20biggerpockets.com\/moneyshow73%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;A rich life is really fundamentally about being excellent at what you do. When you\u2019re excellent at what you do, everything else falls into place.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22A%20rich%20life%20is%20really%20fundamentally%20about%20being%20excellent%20at%20what%20you%20do.%20When%20you%E2%80%99re%20excellent%20at%20what%20you%20do,%20everything%20else%20falls%20into%20place.%22%20BP%20Money%20Podcast%2073%20biggerpockets.com\/moneyshow73%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;Be excellent first and the money will take care of itself.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=Be%20excellent%20first%20and%20the%20money%20will%20take%20care%20of%20itself.%22%20BP%20Money%20Podcast%2073%20biggerpockets.com\/moneyshow73%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Connect with Ramit<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">I Will Teach You To Be Rich<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/ramit\/?hl=en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ramit Sethi&#8217;s Instagram<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/ramit\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Ramit Sethi Twitter Profile<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ten years ago, Ramit Sethi released the book I Will Teach You to Be Rich. Now he\u2019s back with a revamped version that includes 100 new pages of content! In this episode, Mindy and Scott talk to him about his take on the FIRE movement, what &#8220;rich&#8221; means, his opinion of real estate as an investment, and so much more.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":353007,"featured_media":111077,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[6473],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-111075","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-biggerpocketsmoney"],"acf":[],"comment_count":0,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/111075","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/353007"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=111075"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/111075\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/111077"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=111075"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=111075"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=111075"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}