{"id":95398,"date":"2018-01-04T00:02:58","date_gmt":"2018-01-04T07:02:58","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/renewsblog\/?p=95398"},"modified":"2023-02-09T19:10:19","modified_gmt":"2023-02-10T02:10:19","slug":"biggerpockets-podcast-260-ultimate-guide-negotiating-with-fbi-hostage-negotiator-chris-voss","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/biggerpockets-podcast-260-ultimate-guide-negotiating-with-fbi-hostage-negotiator-chris-voss","title":{"rendered":"The Ultimate Guide to Negotiating (for the Negotiation-Averse) With Former FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><em>Bank robbers. Terrorists. Motivated sellers.<\/em> No matter who you&#8217;re dealing with, negotiation is vital. As a real estate investor, the question is not <em>if<\/em> you\u2019ll negotiate but <em>how well will you negotiate<\/em>\u2014and after this episode, you\u2019ll never negotiate the same again. Today, we\u2019re excited to sit down with <strong>Chris Voss,<\/strong> former head of the FBI\u2019s Hostage Negotiation Team and author of Never Split the Difference, to learn the stories, strategies, and tactics gleaned from decades of negotiating with the world\u2019s most dangerous criminals. Then, we delve into how these lessons can help you in your own business and life. This show is a ton of fun and full of actionable tips that will instantly make you a better negotiator\u2014whether sparring with your child, a buyer or seller, or a terrorist holding your family for ransom! <\/span><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/biggerpockets-podcast-real\/id594419649\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Click here<\/a>\u00a0to listen on iTunes.<\/p>\n<h2>Listen to the Podcast Here<\/h2>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https:\/\/playlist.megaphone.fm\/?e=BIGPOC1449284918\" width=\"100%\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<h2>Read the Transcript Here<\/h2>\n<div style=\"overflow-y: scroll; max-height: 400px; background: #eee; padding: 20px; border: 1px solid #ddd;\">\n<p>\u00a0<strong>Scott: <\/strong>This is the BiggerPockets podcast Show 260.<\/p>\n<p><em>\u201cThere\u2019s always something in a negotiation for everybody that\u2019s more important than actually making a deal. For somewhere between one to two-thirds of the people we run across, they just want to know that they were heard\u201d.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>You\u2019re listening to BiggerPockets Radio. Simplifying real estate for investors large and small. If you\u2019re here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype, you\u2019re in the right place. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><em>Stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from BiggerPockets.com. Your home for real estate investing online. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>What\u2019s going on everybody? This is Scott Trench, your host of the BiggerPockets podcast, here with my co-host, Mr. Brandon Turner. How\u2019s it going, Brandon?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Man, things are so good right now. It\u2019s the new year. It just turned the new year and we\u2019re recording this ahead of time so it isn\u2019t really, but you know\u2014we\u2019re going to pretend it is the new year. How are you doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>I\u2019m doing great. Is that a new painting I see behind you? Is that Chewbacca with a surfboard?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>It is not new but it is Chewbacca and a surfboard. I just rearranged my office so now I\u2019ve got a cool little background. I\u2019ve got a plant because you have to have a plant in the office. Where\u2019s your plant?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Uh, there\u2019s probably one somewhere here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Exactly. You\u2019re lame. You don\u2019t have one. You\u2019ve got a blue wall behind you. Just kidding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Oh wait, here it is. Here\u2019s my plant.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Okay, let\u2019s see it. All right, where is it? Oh, that\u2019s the most pitiful plant I\u2019ve seen in my entire life. That\u2019s really bad. Come on, Scott. Come on, you\u2019re letting me down. You\u2019re letting everyone down.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>I\u2019m sorry. I can just picture you on a surfboard hitting a wave and going brrrr.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s exactly how I do it. That\u2019s exactly it. All right, so that was a weird beginning of a podcast but we\u2019re going to go with it. Today\u2019s show is one that I\u2019ve been excited about for a while now. In fact, Josh actually read this guy\u2019s book before I did and he\u2019s like, Brandon, you need to read this book and then I think that you read the book and you were like, Brandon\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>It did the same thing for me. Awesome, awesome book, by the way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, fantastic. So we are fortunate today to have Chris Voss, the author of <em>Never Split the Difference<\/em>, a fantastic book on negotiating from a top FBI hostage negotiator. So that\u2019s going\u2014anyway, the show is fantastic. We just got done recording it. It is unbelievably good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Take out your notebooks for this one because this guy does three things really, really well. One, he explains the philosophy behind what he does so clearly. Two, he has incredibly stories from the real world. Real hostage negotiation situations. Real business settings where he\u2019s applied these philosophies and then three, he\u2019s got very practical tips you can apply immediately in practicing kind of the approach that he advocates. Just awesome, awesome stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Even if you\u2019re like me, like I don\u2019t like to negotiate. I\u2019ve said that a million times. I\u2019m not good at it. He makes me a believer, that like I can do this! Like these simple techniques like mirroring which we\u2019ll talk a lot about on the show but listen for that, it\u2019s so funny.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Mirroring?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Thank you. All right, so with that, let\u2019s get to today\u2019s Quick Tip!<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>All right, so today\u2019s Quick Tip is practice mirroring in three conversations today. And mirroring is the idea of repeating the last two or three words that someone says in an effort to get them to continue talking or to get them excited about it. And you\u2019ll see some magical results from this, especially if you listen through and apply with it consistent with the philosophy that is discussed in the podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>In the podcast?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Yes, Brandon, in the podcast. That\u2019s an example of mirroring.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>All right, so we do that a lot on today\u2019s show. Also, make sure you guys listen at the end. We changed around the Fire Round today. Normally, the Fire Round comes from the forums. Today, we actually decided to have some fun with, I mean it\u2019s not often you get to negotiate with the top FBI negotiator, so we actually do a mock, what do you call it, negotiation\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Negotiation of a rental property.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>And Brandon and Chris go at it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, he\u2019s going to buy my property. I don\u2019t know, man. I don\u2019t know. It was entertaining and super, super helpful for me.<\/p>\n<p>All right, with that, guys, let\u2019s get to today\u2019s show. No more waiting. This is Chris Voss. You guys are going to love him. Again, he\u2019s one of the top negotiators in the world. Super, super smart guy on top of his game, so you guys are going to love this. Let\u2019s bring him in.<\/p>\n<p>All right, Chris, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast, super, super excited to have you here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Thanks, guys. An absolute pleasure. I\u2019m happy to be here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Sweet. So yeah, both Scott and I love this book, <em>Never Split the Difference<\/em> and we\u2019re going to talk about that today. But primarily, negotiation is such an important part of the real estate world\u2014in any world or any business we\u2019re in, but especially like, I feel like I\u2019m dealing on a day-to-day basis working in real estate and if there\u2019s like one thing I could get better at in life, it would be negotiation. I think it would make more of a difference than almost anything. So this is a totally selfish show today. I\u2019m just going to learn from you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>All right, and I\u2019ll tell you what. If I may, with a little bit of effort, it\u2019s not that hard to get better at negotiation. If I may, with the way we put it forward. So cool. It\u2019s not rocket science.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Good. That\u2019s the thing, right? I\u2019ve always looked at it and I\u2019ve said, I\u2019m bad at negotiation, period. Therefore I\u2019m not going to try to get any better. Why work on my weaknesses? But actually, your book, I think the first chapter, it kind of called me out on that. It was like, you need to get better\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>In a good way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>In a good way, yeah. You know, I just felt a little motivated to get better at it. Like, this morning, I sent an e-mail to somebody and I was using the\u2014does that sound fair? You know, they\u2019re using fair, and we\u2019ll talk about that, I\u2019m sure. I\u2019ve already found myself.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>One of the things you kind of pick up after reading the book is all of life is really involved in these negotiation principles. I haven\u2019t done a real estate deal since reading the book yet but I will absolutely use some of the principles that you talk about, Chris. But I\u2019ve been able to use some of the things that you\u2019ve talked about in your book in my day-to-day life and my work here at BiggerPockets just from the things I picked up there. It\u2019s really good for a lot of different areas of business and life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>And the other thing we like to say is, if you want big stakes results, you need to practice in low stakes negotiation. So you should be doing it in an everyday interaction so when you get into the middle of that big deal, you\u2019ve got a high stakes results from a low stakes practice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s a really good point.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>So can you tell us a little about your background? Did you do anything interesting for a living prior to writing the book?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, I was a janitor. I used to mop. Yeah, I was an FBI hostage negotiator. I was the FBI\u2019s lead international kidnapping negotiator. I couldn\u2019t think of a better way to get frequent flyer miles without paying for them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Wow, that\u2019s legit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, I had a 24 year career with the FBI. I had a great career with the FBI. It was a lot of fun. Worked with some phenomenal people, we did some crazy things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>So tell me, what does that mean to be a lead hostage negotiator? When I think of the movies, of what that was like, is that what it\u2019s like? Are you out there on the phone with some bad guy in the bank? Is that how it is?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Ultimately, to get to that position, and at any given time, there\u2019s only one of us in the entire FBI, you know. I\u2019m running the program. But it was pretty cool. I had to be prepared to go anywhere in the world within four hours of hearing about it. Now, a point of fact, what that really meant was any American got kidnapped anywhere in the world, I\u2019d probably hear about it fairly quickly and I needed to start mobilizing response to it.<\/p>\n<p>Whether or not I would actually go depended upon how I expected a timeframe of how long I thought it was going to go down. In the ages of cell phones, which was when I first took over that role, you can make a call anywhere in the world. Like, start working a kidnapping in the Philippines and as soon as I knew about it, I could work from Washington, D.C. and frequently did. So we\u2019d mobilize response immediately and try to get an American who was drinking at the wrong bar at the wrong time out of trouble.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Can you tell us a little bit about how you got into that position in the first place? Just a little bit of background about what peaked your interest in this line of work and how you were able to get a position with the FBI in a negotiation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Originally, I was a cop and then I found out about federal law enforcement and talked to guys who travelled all over the world. First, it was the Secret Service guy I met, and I grew up in Iowa. I\u2019m a small town boy from Iowa and the idea of travelling all over the world, I was like, ooh. That sounds interesting. I could try that.<\/p>\n<p>And I was originally a SWAT guy. I was on a SWAT team in FBI Pittsburgh and actually as a result of a recurring knee injury\u2014I tore my knee up in college in martial arts and they had to put it back together a couple of times and realized that there was only so many more times that that could be done so I decided I wanted to stay in crisis response and I wanted to become a hostage negotiator.<\/p>\n<p>This is an additional duty. It doesn\u2019t start out as a full-time job. A full-time FBI investigator working terrorism in New York City at the time, joint terrorist taskforce, worked terrorist cases. I mean, a lot of crazy stuff. If it\u2019s crazy, it probably happens in New York or L.A. So I was in New York. But I was on a hostage\u2014I made the hostage negotiation team in New York as an additional duty and I ended up being in charge of the team in New York because by sheer initiative in being in the right place at the right time, negotiated a bank robbery.<\/p>\n<p>Now, bank robberies with hostages, Eddie Murphy, Bruce Willis, Samuel Jackson talking somebody out of a building or a bank happens in the movies all the time. In real life, an actual negotiation at a bank happens in the entire country about once every 20 years. So I was lucky enough to stumble into one of those in New York City which gave me an additional unique set of experiences with my terrorism experience. Then I get promoted to the full-time position of hostage negotiator, small core group of guys working out of headquarters and one of those duties is to run all the international kidnapping response. Because of my terrorism experience and I like to travel, give me those frequent flyer miles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Can you tell us about the bank robbery thing? I think that\u2019s fascinating. I think you tell the story in the book, but let me just say this real quick before we get any further. When I read the book, what blew my mind was like the stories you told in there. I\u2019m assuming a lot of people are going to read it but like it kept me enthralled because of your stories. Can you tell that story a little bit? I mean, quickly, I guess, of like what that bank robbery, that first one, was like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>And before I do that, let me do a little commercial for my co-writer Tull Rahz. Because the book is\u2014because of Tull, the book is incredibly readable. And the reason I ended up with Tull was Tull is also a writer, co-author of another one of the best books ever written, <em>Never Eat Alone<\/em>. And it\u2019s the ultimate book on networking. And I had read that book and I really enjoyed reading the book.<\/p>\n<p>And finally, I go like, I\u2019ve got to get this guy. I\u2019ve got to get this guy. We made the deal and he structured the book. It\u2019s not like reading an encyclopedia. I\u2019m really happy to hear you say you enjoyed reading it because that was why I brought Tull on board. If you\u2019re looking for a business greeting card and Tull wrote it, read it. He is the best business book writer on the planet. And that\u2019s why we partnered up on the book. I think it\u2019s a very readable book.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>And it\u2019s also a readable book because of the great stories that are in the book. You\u2019ve got some really cool things that you\u2019ve done that are described really eloquently, yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>All right, so the bank robbery in Brooklyn. He was one of the guys that are really into letting me know that negotiations, negotiations, negotiations. This guy used several tactics that great CEOs used. One of the things that he did, like if you\u2019re in a business negotiation and the guy or gal on the other side of the table, they act like they\u2019re powerless. They\u2019re like, I don\u2019t know. I\u2019ve got a committee I\u2019ve got to respond to. You know, and these other people, these other guys\u2014I don\u2019t know what the other people in my company are going to do. That\u2019s the guy, the person who explicitly avoids singular pronouns. You can\u2019t get an I, me, my out of that person\u2019s mouth no matter what. You\u2019re talking to the guy.<\/p>\n<p>This guy in the bank robbery was the ring leader and organized everything, was pulling the strings behind the scenes. We had him on the phone and he kept saying like, these other guys. They\u2019re crazy. Like, I\u2019m scared of them. I don\u2019t know what they\u2019re going to do. And initially, we thought, why are we talking to this guy? He\u2019s got no influence with his coworkers, if you will. And he was\u2014when we got everybody out, he was the guy. And I\u2019ve seen that in business deal after business deal. It doesn\u2019t matter what it is. You\u2019ve got somebody at the table who is disguising\u2014who seems powerless and they\u2019re almost embarrassingly admitting it\u2014that\u2019s the guy.<\/p>\n<p>And the reason why, they don\u2019t want to be cornered. They know they have the influence. They know they\u2019re at the table. They don\u2019t want you to corner them into a decision if they\u2019re the main decision-maker and that was one of those things that let me know that negotiations were negotiations, whether they were the bank robber or a prison riot or at the Monday morning staff meeting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I\u2019ve noticed I\u2019ve done that in my own real estate stuff. Like, I tend to blame, oh I\u2019ve got to talk to my wife. She really is the one that makes the decision or I\u2019ve got to talk to my partners. There\u2019s always another party that I always refer to. It\u2019s for that reason because I almost don\u2019t want them to know that I\u2019m the guy. Like I want to have that whatever. So when I read that, I thought that was interesting insight because it totally is totally true. I was the guy but I don\u2019t want to be the guy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s actually a very smart move because you\u2019re also buying yourself time. You need a little cushion to think every now and then. You realize in the moment, you may not have had all the right information or maybe you\u2019re just having a bad day and you\u2019ve got to double check your decisions. So it\u2019s a smart move.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Well, thank you. Good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Can you tell us a little bit about how you wrapped up that situation with the bank hostage?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Well, in the midst of talking to the guy who couldn\u2019t have been more guarded, couldn\u2019t have been more smooth, couldn\u2019t have been more calculated\u2014I mirrored him a couple of times and a mirror is just repeating the last few words of what someone has just said.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>The last few words that somebody said?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Nice job. Very good. See, I bite on that even when people do that to me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>When they do it to you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>When they do it, each and every time. Now, you keep that up, we\u2019re going to be on the phone for like four hours.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Okay, I won\u2019t. Anyways.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>The critical part of that is, what you need is, what we refer to as vomiting of information. You need the other side to talk before they\u2019ve thought about it a couple of times and a mirror has a tendency to really get people to bring information out. What he did was in his response he told us about his getaway car driver that we didn\u2019t even know was there. I mean, he literally said to me, \u201cMy guy cut and run when he saw the police\u201d. At the time, I was like, what is he talking about?<\/p>\n<p>Well, by the end of the day, we had found the getaway driver and we had him in handcuffs and he ended up\u2014we had no evidence of him at all other than the spontaneous admissions of our manipulative guy in the midst of the bank robbery. What good does that do to you? In a given negotiation, you\u2019ve got to talk to somebody where they\u2019ve got their guard down a little bit so you can get those spontaneous information and they give you information because they feel like they\u2019re in control. A lot of that has to do with your tone of voice, your late night FM DJ voice, which kept his guard from going up. And we got spontaneous admissions out of him.<\/p>\n<p>Then, I ended up confronting him later on because he wouldn\u2019t tell us his name. Everybody understands the importance of a first name in a communication. When the other side\u2019s not giving you their first name, they\u2019re trying to block you from establishing a rapport with them. There\u2019s a rule in business. You\u2019re not going to make a deal that sticks outside a rapport. It\u2019s just not going to happen. So the other guy\u2019s blocking rapport but I\u2019m using my voice to keep his guard down.<\/p>\n<p>Finally, he can\u2019t take it anymore. After the confrontation, he just hands the phone off to somebody else. Now, the other guy on the phone, he didn\u2019t plan for this to go this way. The second guy that gets on the phone, he is literally in crisis. He\u2019s trapped in a bank. He thought they were going to burglarize the bank. He thought they were just going to break into the cash machine, take the money. The next thing he knows, people are waving guns around, the seventh largest standing army in the world has surrounded him and they got .50 calibers pointed at his head. And this is not what he had in mind when he got up in the morning.<\/p>\n<p>Now, I\u2019m working my late night FM DJ voice on this guy again and in 90 seconds, he tells me, \u201cI trust you\u201d. And 90 minutes later, when I suggest we meet each other out front, he comes out of the bank. And then he comes out and he says, look, young man, this is what\u2019s going on. This is what\u2019s happening with the guy inside.<\/p>\n<p>And now, at this point in time, we know that as long as we relax, if we relax into this, the speed of the negotiation will pick up dramatically, which is a very counterintuitive thing we like to call it \u201cthe delay to save time\u201d. You want to go fast so you relax into it and take your time. And we had the guy out just a couple of hours later.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>And what I love about this is, and let me know if I misstate anything here because I read the book once and I\u2019m still kind of absorbing a lot of the information. But it seems like a huge fundamental part of this was willingly listening and maybe empathizing with the folks on the other end of the line, mirroring them using the tactic of mirroring to get them, you just said it as vomiting information. And you\u2019re just patiently collecting as much information and building as much rapport as you can throughout the course of this in order to bring about the best solution for you and for the rest of the people involved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, and every negotiation, there\u2019s information you\u2019re only going to get at the table. Like, you might know all the variables but you don\u2019t know how the other side weighs variables and they\u2019ve got stuff that\u2019s eating at them that they\u2019re hiding. You can only get that at the table. So, if you relax into it and listen, which actually is an advanced skill. A lot of people don\u2019t realize. They think listening, because I can hear, I can listen. I\u2019ve got my ears on all day so I must be good at it.<\/p>\n<p>Listening is actually an advanced skill and you know, what I laugh about all the time, I ask people, what\u2019s the difference between a typical business negotiation and a hostage negotiation? And they say, I don\u2019t know, the people you\u2019re dealing with are crazy. And I say, interesting, we get yelled at a lot less than you do. Our negotiations are calmer. We don\u2019t have people slamming their hands down on the table or storming out, refusing to come to the table at all. Because it\u2019s amazing when you dial into somebody, how this advanced skill of tactical empathy, how quickly you progress and how calm things get.<\/p>\n<p>Terrorists don\u2019t yell at us the way you guys get yelled at in business negotiations. That\u2019s just a crazy idea. Every person I\u2019ve ever spoken to in business has five stories of the person on the other side of the table screaming at them. Hostage negotiators maybe have one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s fascinating.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>So this isn\u2019t just a theory that you\u2019re espousing here. You actually took your experience with hostage negotiation into the business world, if I recall, in a classroom environment with other top young professionals that are getting their MBAs. Can you maybe tell that story of how that went when you started translating these into business settings?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, the first time I really got a chance to test it out in the private sector, if you will, was I negotiated my way into Harvard Law School\u2019s negotiation course. I\u2019m the only on-duty FBI agent to come and do that ever. I acted as a student but I was a student and they don\u2019t let people go to their class that aren\u2019t a student in one of the universities up there. And I just used my hostage stuff and I was killing them. I mean, I was killing them.<\/p>\n<p>And so I thought, wow, this is pretty interesting. Somehow I thought there were rules to business negotiations that I just didn\u2019t understand so I brought my stuff. And so then when I got out, ultimately, I got a chance to teach in the MBA program at Georgetown University in a part-time program. The important thing about it being a part-time program meant that everybody in a class, they\u2019re going to get their MBA at night\u2014they\u2019ve got day jobs. And they need help in their deals in their day jobs right now.<\/p>\n<p>And my teaching style was like, okay, good because you have to take these skills that I teach you, put it into your day job and make it work. And they started doing phenomenal things. I mean, one of the students at Georgetown was in the middle of a billion dollar Wall Street transaction where he had his notebook next to him and he\u2019s leafing through the pages while he\u2019s doing the deal on the phone.<\/p>\n<p>And I mean, the entire range of negotiations. We\u2019ve proved it over and over again and the book is full of stories from people putting the skills into real life deals. They were either MBA students at Georgetown or MBA students at USC here in Los Angeles. And so, the idea was not like, try this and see what happens, which is what some books are. It was like, no, people tried this and made it work and here\u2019s how they made it work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, I love that. So let\u2019s shift a little bit and go into the real estate stuff. Obviously, a lot of people here are trying to get into real estate. There\u2019s a lot of negotiation in it in a couple of aspects. One, if I\u2019m going to talk to let\u2019s say a private seller\u2014I want to buy their house. I\u2019m typically going to go and negotiate with them on a price or I\u2019m going to sell a property I\u2019m going to negotiate with them. Or if I\u2019m going to work with a partner, how am I going to negotiate the split with the partner? There\u2019s a negotiation in every aspect of real estate.<\/p>\n<p>But let\u2019s start at a very basic thing. It\u2019s something I deal with and your book kind of called me out on it in a nice way. But like, I don\u2019t like negotiating. It makes me scared, nervous. I don\u2019t like doing it so I just don\u2019t. I typically just look for ways to not negotiate and I say, oh, I\u2019m a bad negotiator. But there\u2019s this line in the book, I think it was the first chapter, that said, \u201cThe first step to achieving a master of dealing in negotiations is to get over your aversion to negotiating\u201d. So can you talk on that to people like me who just hate negotiating and just don\u2019t want to do it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, well sure. Let\u2019s rethink it to start with. In my company, we\u2019re really on a mission to rethink negotiation around the world. And I\u2019m not joking around about that because the book is in 20 countries in 16 languages. And because negotiation is a universal, human nature problem. Everybody, whether you\u2019re Asian, whether you\u2019re Latino, whether you\u2019re African, has those exact same set of fears.<\/p>\n<p>So what am I saying when I want to rethink it? I don\u2019t want it to be, let\u2019s take it out of the win-lose. You\u2019re afraid of negotiation because you don\u2019t want conflict. You don\u2019t want to beat the other side or you\u2019re worried about what you\u2019re going to lose. A good hostage negotiation approach is an emotional intelligence approach to really transform it into much more of a collaborative thing. Well, together, we\u2019re going to find out what\u2019s on the table and maybe come up\u2014there\u2019s going to be some cool stuff that\u2019s going to surprise us. We\u2019re going to have some cool ideas about this. And then when we\u2019re done, we\u2019re going to have enjoyed the experience so we\u2019d actually want to do it again.<\/p>\n<p>I did a talk with CNBC and Ink Magazine did this series of talks called The Iconic Tour. Kevin O\u2019Leary was at the last one and Kevin spoke shortly after I did. And my take on negotiations is not his because he said, and I wish I had known he was going to say this\u2014\u201cMost negotiations, I\u2019m happy with it when all sides are done are unhappy. That\u2019s a good negotiation\u201d. And I\u2019m thinking like, no wonder you\u2019re trying to get everybody to call you Mr. Wonderful. Nobody likes you. But that\u2019s actually bad for business long-term because a lasting impression is a lasting impression. So if the last impression you leave in a negotiation is you left people unhappy, who wants to deal with you again? That\u2019s how you get into this vicious circle of I don\u2019t like negotiating because I always felt like I got beat, I got hurt.<\/p>\n<p>Why say something\u2014we don\u2019t like hurting ourselves. A lot of us don\u2019t like hurting other people. I mean, I had to hurt him to get what I wanted. So this is a rethink approach where like, you know, we\u2019re faced with a mutual problem otherwise we wouldn\u2019t be talking. There\u2019s an external problem. The adversary\u2019s a situation. Where the accomplishment, the potential accomplishment is a situation. We\u2019ve got to collaborate on this.<\/p>\n<p>This approach is to build rapports simultaneously while negotiating instead of let me build rapport because when we negotiate, I\u2019m going to kick your butt and you\u2019re not going to like it. So I\u2019m going to build enough rapport so you\u2019ll tolerate it. And then when you almost start to get mad and I can tell you\u2019re mad and angry with me, I\u2019ve got to go back to rapport building because it made you mad. I mean, that\u2019s unpleasant.<\/p>\n<p>That would be like saying, in my marriage, yeah we\u2019ve got to make each other unhappy. Or in my business partnerships, in order to make it work, we\u2019ve got to make each other unhappy. That\u2019s crazy. Let\u2019s not do it like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>What\u2019s the alternative? How does one go into a negotiation and create a situation where everyone wins, where you get what you want and the other side gets what they want and everyone walks away from the table happy? What are some of the tactics that we can use going into that negotiation to make that outcome more likely for us?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Well, to start with, let\u2019s get back to this listening idea. There\u2019s always something in the negotiations for everybody that\u2019s more important than actually making a deal. For somewhere between one to two-thirds of the people we run across, they just want to know that they were heard. Like, imagine a boss that you had that always heard you out. He or she might not have did what you wanted him to do but they heard you out. There\u2019s something ridiculously satisfying about feeling like you were heard.<\/p>\n<p>So let me eliminate all my compromises by just hearing you out. Because more than likely if I hear you out, you\u2019re going to happily give me some stuff. You just don\u2019t want to begrudgingly give it to me. You\u2019re going to want to feel like you respect it and appreciate it. It\u2019s the Stephen Covey advice and we all look at Stephen Covey, <em>The Seven Habits of Highly Successful People<\/em> and a lot of people say, well, all right, Covey, he\u2019s a soft-hearted guy. He just wants to give people hugs. Let\u2019s think of Covey as a mercenary. Seek first to understand then be understood. Hear the other side out. Let\u2019s say Covey was a mercenary. Let\u2019s say Stephen Covey, which is not true, but let\u2019s say he was a sociopath that only wanted to get what he wanted. You get what you want by hearing the other side out. It\u2019s stupidly insane.<\/p>\n<p>That\u2019s why I was talking about it before, how it accelerates a negotiation. You\u2019ll stop pushing back on me on a lot of issues that you would have given in on as soon as you felt respected, heard, and appreciated. Then, you\u2019re going to give in. I\u2019m like, all I\u2019ve got to get you to do is feel good about this and then you\u2019ll give in? Okay! Let me hack this. Let me hack a third of the negotiation just by hearing you out and that\u2019s the first thing.<\/p>\n<p>The second thing is you\u2019re going to speculate on what your must-haves and your giveaways are and you\u2019re going to be wrong on a lot of them, which means my counterpart is going to speculate on his must-haves and his giveaways and he\u2019s going to accidentally give me some stuff that he thinks is not valuable to me but actually is enormously valuable. If I give him the chance. In negotiations, the art of letting the other side have your way. Well, I start mirroring and I start listening, you know, maybe I\u2019ll give you this. And I\u2019ll throw it out on the table and it will be enormously valuable to me. And I\u2019ll have to go like, okay.<\/p>\n<p>But I gotta again, use this tactical listeners\u2019 judo approach to get you to do that in the deal. And then, the best thing that I can possibly say to make a deal, which you\u2019re going to implement is, I want to say, okay, we\u2019ll do it your way. Because we\u2019re going to implement if it\u2019s your way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yep, I like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>One of the things I loved in your book that you kind of talk about along the lines of the subject is getting the other party, going along with okay, we\u2019ll do it your way. How are we going to do that, right? That gets along a certain line of executing that problem. Can you talk about why you suggest asking the question, \u201cHow are we supposed to do that?\u201d and what that kind of provides to the negotiation table or how that gives you an advantage?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, the secret to gaining the upper hand in the negotiations is giving the other side the illusion of control. Now, people love to tell you how to do things. They love it. And then also, if it comes out of their mouth, it\u2019s gotta be a good idea. So how are we going to do that? You can phrase it, \u201cHow am I supposed to do that?\u201d is the magical phrase for either saying no, or building implementation or building great deals or forcing group context. It\u2019s actually our go-to way to say no. And people, when they\u2019re told to say that, well what if the other side says \u201cBecause you have to\u201d. And I\u2019ll say, perfect. That\u2019s exactly what you want.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s a real estate deal here in Los Angeles. Somebody\u2019s negotiating on behalf of a high network client and they want to rent a house on the Hollywood Hills and the rent is $25,000 a month. And so they\u2019re going back and forth on the price and the agent says to the person on the other side, he says, \u201cHow\u2019s my client supposed to pay that?\u201d And the person on the other side says, \u201cWell, you know, yeah. You\u2019re right, it is a lot\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>Now understand, that\u2019s not what they did. They responded as if they said to them, \u201cThat\u2019s too much!\u201d But it also triggers a response from the other side that says, \u201cYeah, you\u2019re right. It is a lot\u201d. And then they talk about some other terms and they drop the lease price, the monthly rate. So they talk a little bit more and it triggers a lot of other conversation and then they circle back around to \u201cHow\u2019s my client supposed to do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And the second time, the person on the other side of the table says, \u201cIf your client wants the house, they\u2019ll do it\u201d. Perfect. They just pushed them as far as they could have. They didn\u2019t break rapport. The person didn\u2019t yell at them, slam their hands down on the table, hang up the phone, walk away. Your job as a negotiator is to find out how much is on the table without making the other side so mad that they walk away. Because when the other side looks at you and says, if you want the deal, you\u2019ll do it. You now know that they want to make the deal. It\u2019s actually a very counterintuitive way to get everything on the table.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>You know, what I like about that, I\u2019m trying to translate it into like what I\u2019m dealing with on a day-to-day basis with real estate. Let\u2019s say I\u2019m sitting across the table from a seller, somebody who called me up and they want to sell their house. Maybe they found my website or whatever and they want to sell their house to me or at least they want to sell their house, period. That\u2019s the problem. And they tell me, I want $200,000 for my house. That\u2019s what I want for it. But I know there\u2019s no way I can pay them close to that.<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s say I\u2019m going to go flip it, right? I\u2019m going to go fix it up and make it look beautiful and sell it. But I know that the most I can even sell it if it was all fixed up is like $200,000. So the way I\u2019m kind of translating that is instead of saying no, that won\u2019t work, or there\u2019s no good deals and walking out and storming out, I can just ask, \u201cWell, how am I supposed to pay $200K when this is my business model, I\u2019m a house flipper, I have to make a profit and I\u2019ve got to do all these repairs. So tell me how am I supposed to do that?\u201d Is that what you\u2019re saying? Like I can ask that question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah. And I\u2019ve used a tone of voice. I love deference. There\u2019s great power in deference. The late night FM DJ voice with some deference thrown in because it works on everybody.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>What do you mean by deference?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>\u201cHow am I supposed to do that?\u201d is a very deferential thing to say. Again, to make the other side feel powerful and in control. If they feel powerful and in control\u2014you\u2019re a home seller. He doesn\u2019t really know what the price is. He\u2019s feeling you out. It\u2019s the exact same thing with kidnapper or translation, we used to say to kidnappers, when are they going to release the hostage? When they feel they\u2019ve gotten everything they can. Not when they did get everything they could, when they feel they\u2019ve gotten everything they can.<\/p>\n<p>Your home seller is going to sell you that home when he feels like he got everything he can. So he\u2019s going to want to feel like he made you work. He\u2019s got an amount of time his head is going to take and let\u2019s say you could pay the $200K and that was like a ridiculously low price. If you look at that seller and go \u201cDeal!\u201d on the spot, he\u2019s going to feel like he could have gotten more. So he\u2019s going to find a way to back out of that. So, even when you\u2019ve got your price, the worst thing you can do is agree because it ignores human nature or your peril. He\u2019s going to go sideways on you. And then once you understand it\u2019s a process, when they feel like they\u2019ve got the best deal, now what can I do to speed that feeling up to actually shorten the process?<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s when you kind of go\u2014I had a colleague, one of the best negotiators I\u2019ve ever worked with in the FBI. You could ask him for anything. You could ask him for something he was getting ready to give you and he\u2019d go like, \u201cOh, my God. Oh, that\u2019s impossible. How am I going to do that?\u201d Because he understood that this feel like I got the best deal possible is extremely important for implementation to keep you from backing out of deals or killing the deal over an inspection cost.<\/p>\n<p>You know, I\u2019ve heard of real estate transactions where the clause was \u201capproval of inspections\u201d and had a passing inspection and had the other side say, well the clause doesn\u2019t say that it passed. The clause says I approve. And I disapprove. Well, they\u2019re going to do that for emotional reasons because they feel like they could have gotten a better deal and they\u2019re mad about it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, I specifically for that reason, I negotiate. I mean I\u2019m not a great negotiator but I will\u2014the other day, I got an offer. It was a full price, it was over asking price on an offer on a property I was selling and I specifically didn\u2019t respond until the next day because I wanted to make it feel like, if I would have jumped at it that day\u2014yeah, I\u2019m risking that I could lose that and that could go run to somebody else. It didn\u2019t happen. I feel like, it made them feel like, \u201cOh good, we got it\u201d. They weren\u2019t sure for a day. Maybe there was another full price offer. So by just waiting that day and saying, okay.<\/p>\n<p>Or I\u2019ll say, okay but can we move\u2014I think that was exactly what I did. I said okay, but can we shorten the ten-day inspection to seven days. So an arbitrary thing, they\u2019re going to get the inspection done in seven days and it didn\u2019t really matter to them so now it felt like we were negotiating. Do you agree? Did I do a good job there? I need approval from you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, there are two things that were going on. First of all, you were rethinking it, too. You were like, oh my God, I could have gotten more for this because this offer came in this quick. An advisor on the outside would have said, think of the time value of money. Make this feel quicker. The money came to you fast so you shouldn\u2019t think that way. But it doesn\u2019t matter because you did think that way.<\/p>\n<p>So it was a combination of two things and to me, it sounded like you were self-aware enough to know if I had second thoughts if we come to an agreement too quickly, the other side\u2019s going to have second thoughts, too. So again, we\u2019ve got to get back to this whole feel thing to make sure it happens.<\/p>\n<p>Because you know, in real estate, you guys know. Signing an agreement is only the beginning of the journey. Opening an escrow is only the beginning of the journey. The number of deals that goes sideways for emotional reasons after escrow has been opened is insane. Anybody that\u2019s experienced in real estate knows do not count this deal being over until all the papers have been signed and I physically have taken possession. And it all goes sideways for emotional reasons. And emotional issues that are in your seller or buyer\u2019s life that have nothing to do with the transaction will manifest themselves in a transaction.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s very true. Yeah, I can think of multiple deals that I\u2019ve done where\u2014I would probably guess that a third of my deals that I put under contract, whether I\u2019m selling or buying, fall through. At least a third. I would even say half the deals that I sell end up falling through for some reason. So, yeah. It definitely is not over until I have either the check in my hand or the key in my hand. Then, it\u2019s over.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, this is you know, if you don\u2019t read my book, every person in real estate should either read my book or volunteer on a suicide hotline, whichever you have more time for.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>But you did that, right? I mean, I read that in the book that you actually volunteered and that\u2019s kind of how you got into the FBI, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, that was the difference maker. That was the game-changer that took me from being a completely unqualified candidate for hostage negotiations to be the most qualified.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome. So going back to the fundamental thing here, is obviously empathizing, understanding, getting to understand what these external factors are in a business or real estate negotiation. But then I think you also have some tactics that you can throw in there as far as, hey, I\u2019m going to offer a specific amount of money. I\u2019m going to offer a percentage of what I\u2019m going to buy it, what I\u2019m willing to pay at first and work up to my number. Could you talk about that strategy a little bit?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>We\u2019ve got this system that we refer to as the Ackerman system and it was named because as much research as I can do, there\u2019s a systematic approach to bargaining that was invented by this guy named Mike Ackerman who actually ran a kidnappers response company. I started using it in business negotiation and then I finally met Mike and I said, number one, did you invent this? And he was like, yeah, as far as I know, I did. And I said, number two, did you ever use it in business?<\/p>\n<p>And he said, that\u2019s interesting, you know I had some friends at Harvard Business School, Howard Raiffa who is like a negotiation god. If there was a Rushmore face for negotiation, Howard would be on it. And he said yeah, I happen to know Howard Raiffa and I ran it by him and he\u2019s a psychologist and business and numbers and he said he worked his analysis on it and he says, this would work perfectly under any circumstances. So it counteracts high anchoring and it resets the game. Typically, we\u2019ll come in at\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Can you talk about anchoring real quick just for people who may not know what that term is?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Anchoring is an extreme, outside of the expected range. Whether you\u2019re buying or selling, your offer price or your ask for price, it\u2019s outside the expected range. It\u2019s a real common practice because then a shark will offer outside the expected range and then say, you know what? Let\u2019s compromise. Let\u2019s meet in the middle and you end up on the number the shark wanted all along. It\u2019s the old phrase, beware the guy who offers to meet you in the middle because he\u2019s offering a poor judge of distance.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s an extremely common practice because it works. It\u2019s also a test. I\u2019ll high anchor on you because I want to punch you in the nose and I want to see what you\u2019re going to do. All the sharks do it in Shark Tank. Mark Cuban does it, not because he\u2019s trying to whoop your butt, he\u2019s actually testing you. Mark Cuban will come at you with a really tough offer and his high anchor will also be a term in that he\u2019ll say, take it or leave it. Yes or no right now. You can\u2019t talk to anybody else. You\u2019ve got to talk to me. He\u2019s testing you. He doesn\u2019t want to bully you, he wants to see if you can be bullied. Because if you can\u2019t be bullied, then you\u2019re a great business partner.<\/p>\n<p>So a high anchor is often a test. Mike Tyson said, \u201cEverybody has a plan until you get hit\u201d. Until you get the punch. And respond with the Ackerman system. Respond with a little bit of emotional intelligence. \u201cHow am I supposed to do that?\u201d Or you can say, \u201cCome on. That\u2019s ridiculous. Stop joking around. That\u2019s just crazy\u201d. But the last thing you want to do is get mad. So now you\u2019ve got to come in with your number. Typically, you want to come in at 65% of where you want to end up.<\/p>\n<p>Most negotiations go through three rounds of bargaining. We\u2019ve seen it shake out time after time after time. Three solid rounds. The other side has to feel like that they\u2019ve made progress. Now, you\u2019ve calculated in advance how you\u2019re going to go from 65 to 100% of what you want to offer. The real key is, each one of your increases has to be decreasing increments so the next raise, if you make it, you\u2019ve got to come up 20%. The next raise you\u2019ve got to come up 10% and the last phase, you\u2019ve got to come up 5%. The other side feels a slowdown.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019re going to throw in another psychological technique. You\u2019re going to use odd-numbered pricing. I used odd-number pricing with kidnappers. The target gives you odd-numbered pricing. Why does it work? Because you\u2019re buying a target? No. It works because you\u2019re dealing with human beings. It worked with kidnappers. I\u2019d come up with an odd-numbered ransom and then we\u2019d offer some ridiculous throwaway that they didn\u2019t want.<\/p>\n<p>In real estate, come up with an odd-numbered offer and throw in something you know that they don\u2019t want that\u2019s a non-priced term. In between each one of these rounds, there\u2019s another two critical issues. It\u2019s gotta be sequential. You can\u2019t bid against yourself. And then you\u2019ve got to put in a massive amount of tactical empathy between each offer because you\u2019ve got to get back to the other side has to feel like that they\u2019re working. They have to feel like they\u2019ve got the best deal that they could have possibly gotten. They have to feel like they\u2019re in control. All of this is very specific application of hostage negotiation techniques because then when you get to a price, then that price sticks and it doesn\u2019t change.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>I think that\u2019s just so fascinating and so smart a way to go about this because when you price an anchor like that, I think you mentioned this in the book but maybe you go through this whole process of getting this negotiation, you put in that effort and you make these incremental strides and you arrive at the deal that you\u2019re both satisfied. Or maybe you are above what the other side wants you to be and you\u2019re going to make a deal right there on your first offer. So if you just offered your full amount the first time, you could be losing big time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, you lose in a lot of ways which is another thing that\u2019s very different about our approach is, contrary to almost every academic out there, they will tell you to name price first because it sets the range. That\u2019s true if you\u2019re a B Player, if you\u2019re an average negotiator. Then that\u2019s good advice. If you\u2019re not interested in being a true A Player. The top negotiators on the planet, they do not go first.<\/p>\n<p>Carl Icahn, none of these people\u2014Warren Buffett. He wants to hear your assessment because he wants that information. They know that they\u2019ve got a pretty good idea of the expected range and they know they\u2019re not infallible and they know that you might come up with something that\u2019s phenomenally ridiculous and they\u2019re going to blow it if they don\u2019t let you go first.<\/p>\n<p>So again, understand, if you can take that punch in the nose and if you want to be an A Player, take that punch in the nose. Be willing\u2014practice how you\u2019re going to laugh off a high anchor. Practice how you\u2019re going to come back and say, \u201cHow am I supposed to do that?\u201d But the great deal where the other side spontaneously throws something on the table beyond what you expected, which happens enough that the top players won\u2019t go first. You just have to game that out of your head and you can handle it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>So this happens to me a lot where I\u2019m chatting with a motivated seller of some kind and I say, so how much are you looking for? I want to know like where am I going wrong in this? But I say, well how much are you looking to get for your house? And they\u2019ll say, well I don\u2019t really know, that\u2019s why I called you. And I\u2019m like, at that point, I\u2019m already stuck. I don\u2019t know. I mean like, usually what I\u2019ll do is I\u2019ll say a range. I\u2019ll say you know, typical houses are in the ranges of $50,000-$100,000 or whatever and that at least gets the ball moving but I always get stuck there. Any suggestions?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s the game of who\u2019s going to name price first?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Exactly. Yeah, it happens all the time. What do you want to spend? Well, what do you want to pay? Well what do you want to spend?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Well, we get out of that\u2014every question you should have are corresponding labels to get to that other person. Like I would say if somebody says well I don\u2019t know, that\u2019s why I\u2019m asking you. I\u2019d probably say to them, seems like you\u2019ve got something in mind. Seems like you\u2019ve put some thought into this. Each one of those actually is what we call a label. It\u2019s specifically designed to bypass a part of the brain. What you may not have noticed, I didn\u2019t use the word \u201cI\u201d when I said either or any of those labels.<\/p>\n<p>Every word that you use has an emotional impact on the brain. If you don\u2019t know the emotional impact of what it has on the brain, what you\u2019re doing is you\u2019re firing a weapon and you don\u2019t know what target you\u2019re hitting. \u201cI\u201d is a self-centering word. \u201cI\u201d jolts the brain in a different way. It takes someone out of contemplation and suddenly it brings their attention to you. Which will stop them from giving you information.<\/p>\n<p>So if I say, it seems like it bypasses a part of the brain that triggers an inquiry. It triggers contemplation. It gets inside someone\u2019s head without it raising a guard. It actually is the most powerful negotiations skill we have in the entire arsenal. We\u2019ve got nine skills. It is one of the FBI Eight Skills.<\/p>\n<p>In the FBI, we called it emotional labelling. Actually, when I came out of hostage negotiations, I didn\u2019t think it was that important. We came to find out that labels are the single most flexible, single most powerful tool and the single most universal appeal. Now, when you\u2019ve got a guy that says, well I don\u2019t know, I heard you\u2019re a professional. I want you to tell me. He or she is in analyst mode. They\u2019re in guarded mode. They\u2019ve already thought this through extensively and they actually are dying to show off how smart they are and they\u2019re thinking they\u2019re smarter than you which is exactly why they said to you, well you\u2019re the expert. That\u2019s why I\u2019m talking to you.<\/p>\n<p>I love it when somebody says to me, well, you\u2019re the expert. Because that\u2019s a flattering statement that\u2019s designed to trigger me giving them information when they actually think they\u2019re smarter than I am. As soon as somebody starts calling me an expert, I know in the back of their mind, this person\u2019s going like, \u201cYou\u2019re the stated expert but I can\u2019t wait to show you that I\u2019m smarter than you are\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>So I\u2019m like, all right. Well, you\u2019re going to tell me how smart you are as soon as you feel like that you can be unguarded. So I\u2019m going to take some emotional intelligence approaches which is I\u2019m going to get out of the question, questions raise people\u2019s guards. Even good opening questions.<\/p>\n<p>An analyst is going to want to think through all the possibilities and about a third of the planet are analysts before they answer. We found analysts to be enormously vulnerable to answering labels. There\u2019s something about the label design and the way that it hits the brain that bypasses the guards and the defense is then triggered in regard to the responses.<\/p>\n<p>So when the guy says, well you\u2019re the expert, that\u2019s why I\u2019m talking to you, I immediately know that I need to shift to labels. It might take three to get it out of him but I\u2019m going to get it out of him.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>So can I flip this on you real quick? Let\u2019s say that you labelled me and I\u2019m an analyst. I perceive myself as definitely that analyst type. How can I respond to a label in a way that doesn\u2019t put me at a disadvantage in a negotiation if I\u2019m with someone who has read your book or who is using these tactics?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>At this point in time, the real issue is, do I need to be afraid of the other side? And am I going to take myself hostage? What do I mean by am I going to take myself hostage? If I tell myself that you can\u2019t make me say yes, then I should be able to tell you all of the information I want because you can\u2019t make me say yes. If I have an aspiration price, I should be able to give it to you because I\u2019m smart enough knowing the price is not the only term and also just because I\u2019ve given them prices doesn\u2019t mean I agree to that price.<\/p>\n<p>I want information from you. Are you trying to hurt me or are you trying to help me? My weaknesses can actually be my strengths. I can say, well this is the price that I want but there\u2019s some other things I\u2019ve gotta have in order to make it work. And I may think, look, I\u2019ve got a sales company. I may be under tremendous financial pressure.<\/p>\n<p>I may be\u2014let\u2019s say I needed a quarter of a million dollars for the peace of property but I got\u2014I\u2019m in foreclosure of something else. I\u2019m scared to tell you that I\u2019m in foreclosure because you think you can cut my throat and offer me $150,000. Instead, I\u2019ll say, look if I don\u2019t get $250,000 for this, I can\u2019t sell it because I\u2019m in foreclosure. I need every last dime to make these other deals and if you can\u2019t do the deal for me, I\u2019ve got to move on from you right now.<\/p>\n<p>So it\u2019s all a matter of your interpretation of what your strengths and weaknesses are and are you going to take yourself hostage by saying, if I give this to you, you can make me make the deal. Like no, it\u2019s a free country. I can move on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Before we move on, we\u2019ve covered I feel like 2% of what I wanted to cover today. That\u2019s all right. I\u2019ve got a couple more things I want to kind of\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Hey, I\u2019m confusing you guys, too, I\u2019m rambling so much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>No, I like it. This is good. It\u2019s fun, too, because I just read the book, right? So now I\u2019m like, I don\u2019t know. I love this. I\u2019m curious about the idea of saying no. I find that it\u2019s probably one of the most fascinating chapter to me in the book, the idea\u2014you know there\u2019s that famous book, <em>Getting to Yes<\/em> and the idea that we want to get to yes, and even from a sales position, get the other person saying yes. Get them saying yes all the time. It makes people feel good. You kind of like counter-contradict that. Can you talk about that? Like why is no more powerful than yes?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Okay, so first of all, you get them saying yes, they\u2019ll feel good and you\u2019ll feel good. And in reality, every time somebody says yes, it triggers anxiety. What am I letting myself in for? What am I not seeing? How have I lost control? I mean, the actual saying of the word \u2018yes\u2019 creates anxiety on the other side. Take a look at it yourself. If somebody calls you on the phone and says, hey, have you got a few minutes to talk? You don\u2019t go like, yeah. Oh my God, thank God you called. What else you got? I want to hear it.<\/p>\n<p>If somebody calls you on the phone and says have you got a few minutes to talk, you\u2019re like oh my God, what am I letting myself in for? If I say yes, where is this going? How do I stop this? The act of saying yes actually creates tremendous anxiety. So first of all, get out of that. Get out of that. You like to hear yes. That doesn\u2019t mean the other side likes to say it. It\u2019s tremendously satisfying to hear. We love it. We hear angels. We feel angelic choirs sing when we hear the word \u201cyes\u201d. But it\u2019s not that way on the other side. So the crazy thing is, no creates protection. When I say no, I feel protected.<\/p>\n<p>I think a good, solid, strategic no is worth five yeses. And when we intentionally get somebody to say no, they typically say, no, that\u2019s not a problem. As a matter of fact, we can do this, this, and this. Well, that was four follow-on yeses to other things that you are going to want to negotiate. We\u2019ve seen it happen time and time again. I\u2019ll say, look, are you against this? Is this a bad idea? Is this ridiculous? Well, no. No. We\u2019ll need to do this. We\u2019ll need to bring these people in and we\u2019ll need to accomplish this goal and then we\u2019ll finally have to do this. I\u2019m like, dang. That just unraveled my next five, what would have otherwise been five yes questions and five opening questions because once they\u2019ve said yes, then you have to say, how are we going to do it?<\/p>\n<p>So it\u2019s probably the single greatest hack in the world in general terms. It triggers a decision and it creates protection in the other side. They feel safe and secure and protected and so when they say no, they can give you the following information that you would otherwise have to ask for. It\u2019s insane.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>I feel like this concept is related to another concept that blew my mind just as much as this yes or no thing which is the difference between \u201cyou\u2019re right\u201d and \u201cthat\u2019s right\u201d. Can you talk about that for a minute?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>\u201cYou\u2019re right\u201d is the greatest killer of relationships, deals, progress, collaboration. It is again, we love to hear it. It is the worst thing to possibly hear. When someone that you\u2019re working with is nagging you, gnawing you, won\u2019t let up on you, what do you get them to do to happily shut up and go away? You look at them and you say, \u201cYou\u2019re right\u201d. They have that big smile on their face and they leave you alone. You know who the world\u2019s biggest practitioner is of this tactic are? Husbands.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>So true.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>And why? Because it\u2019s relationships that they care about and preserve and they don\u2019t want to cooperate. It ain\u2019t husbands that are the only ones that are doing this. It\u2019s our colleagues. It\u2019s people all around us. If anybody who listens to this has done this to three people this week, they got them to shut up and go away without making them mad by looking at them and saying, \u201cYou\u2019re right\u201d.<\/p>\n<p>And the two millimeter shift is if you want to hear from somebody else, you want to hear them say, \u201cThat\u2019s right\u201d. Like whichever side of the last presidential election you were on, if you watched the debate whether you were Republican or whether you were a Democrat, when your candidate said something that you loved and that you embraced and you were a thousand percent behind, you pointed at the TV and you went, \u201cThat\u2019s right\u201d. That\u2019s what people say when they\u2019re a thousand percent behind what\u2019s just been said.<\/p>\n<p>I talked earlier about Stephen Covey, seek first to understand then be understood. What\u2019s our indicator that the other side is now ready to listen? When they look at you and say, that\u2019s right. There\u2019s suddenly an epiphany that takes place. There\u2019s no signs behind it. It\u2019s establishment of immediate rapport. They\u2019re telling you, when someone says that\u2019s right to you, among the great things they\u2019re telling you is they feel empathy from you and they will never be in a more persuadable place than at that moment. And that\u2019s when you make your deals.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>So I\u2019m talking, let\u2019s say, to a motivated seller. Go back to the guy who wants $200,000 for his house. He says he wants that. By using, what\u2019s the act of listening? I want to hear, I want to use mirroring to really get to the bottom of what he wants. Like, for example, it seems as if you\u2019re just looking to unload this headache and your stupid cousin who\u2019s living in the property, it seems like you just want to get him out. Is that the idea? That\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>You know, there\u2019s probably three or four responses on your part. I mean, my first one would be like, it seems like you put a lot of thought into this. He\u2019s going to give you a lot of information which you\u2019re going to want to mirror as much as you can any way through. You\u2019re going to want to find out what the real issues are. A home represents a variety of things simultaneously. It represents hopes and dreams. It represents cherished memories of the past. It may represent some current disappointments. If he\u2019s got a stupid cousin living in the house not paying rent, tearing it up, there\u2019s some soul-crushing disappointments in there because at one point in time that home represented a vision of the future, hopes and dreams of the future, cherished memories of the past. You want to feel that out and then let the other guy know how much of an appreciation you have for that. Simultaneously, this also begins to lay the groundwork of the deal, the feel aspects of the deal and it draws the person so much closer to you that we\u2019ve seen it on a consistent or regular basis, people sticking to deals for less money because of the empathy bond that they felt with the person that made the deal with them. Not against them, but with them. And in hot real estate markets, you have to have that advantage or they\u2019ll pay to a higher bidder, they\u2019ll back out. Or in a slow real estate market, you have to have that advantage or they\u2019ll just get fed up and back out anyways.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>So if I were summarize this, the goal is you actively listen, you mirror as much as possible, and then once you feel like you have enough information, you attempt to precisely as possible, label exactly the situation as it is in the other party\u2019s mind. And the goal is, you continue to go down that path, rinse and repeat, until you hear, \u201cThat\u2019s right\u201d with enthusiasm or you know, in a way that convinces you, yes, I\u2019ve got it. This is how the other side sees things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>I\u2019m going to make one small tweak in that and this is one of the differences, I think, because we\u2019ve gone from active listening to tactical listening. I mean, we know specifically what you should be listening for. You\u2019re going to be listening for hopes and dreams. You\u2019re going to be listening for disappointments. Let\u2019s call out some categories in advance that you\u2019re looking for, some of which you\u2019re going to amplify, others you\u2019re going to diffuse.<\/p>\n<p>And once you have an understanding, it\u2019s like taking a beam of light and running through a prism. A white light actually has about seven components in it. Let\u2019s lay out what those components are. They are deal-making components and then you\u2019re going to get to a \u201cThat\u2019s right\u201d and \u201cThat\u2019s right\u201d, it\u2019s more of an epiphany feeling from the other side as opposed to enthusiasm which you\u2019re really going to get. They\u2019re going to feel understood. There are actually going to be chemical changes. There\u2019s an actual bonding feeling that both of you are going to feel.<\/p>\n<p>And once you\u2019re bonded, that\u2019s when people are going to start getting honest about what\u2019s it going to take to make this deal. And why am I going to make it with you, I don\u2019t know but there\u2019s something about the way you deal with me that I appreciate more than anybody else.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>This has been fantastic, mind-blowing in a lot of ways. Do you have any last things to add before we move onto our Fire Round segment of the podcast?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>I probably made this sound more complicated than it is. It\u2019s a learning curve. Let\u2019s talk about the learning curve. If you\u2019re new to this and it seems like a lot to begin with, the learning curve is a bell curve. It\u2019s only steep at the beginning. The bell curve, halfway through, you press a hill and you take off down the other side. With less results, you get greater return. That\u2019s the other side of the bell curve. So if you want to try this and you\u2019re discouraged by it at the beginning because it feels like a lot, actually the good news is, however well you\u2019re doing, your upside is tremendous. You\u2019ve got a tremendous upside. So don\u2019t be discouraged if some of this seems like a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Well, on that note, is there something you could share for somebody that\u2019s like, what\u2019s the most tangible they can do it today in their day-to-day interactions? Like what\u2019s one thing that they should just do that would make them feel like they\u2019re a better negotiator?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>So today is a free day. Today is a warm-up day. Today is a test day. Mirror all day. Repeat all day. Mirror all day. You\u2019re getting a great example of mirroring right now. Just repeat the last one to three words of what somebody has said. Now, do it a couple of times. The first time, it\u2019s going to scare you. At the end of the day, people are going to love you. We were at a conference and this guy I ran into, I nicknamed him Johnny Mirrors. He was there with his wife and all he did all day long was mirror people. I mean, I was talking to him for 20 minutes before I realized he was mirroring me.<\/p>\n<p>And he was running around all day with a big smile on his face mirroring everybody and it was driving everybody crazy. Everyone was coming up to his wife going like, your husband is so much fun to talk to\u2014he\u2019s the best guy at this whole conference. People would just glare at him and he\u2019d sit there with this big grin on his face because he was having the best time mirroring people. So give yourself a free day. Today\u2019s a free day. Today\u2019s your cheat day like if you\u2019re on a diet. Today\u2019s your cheat day and just mirror all day long. So many people are going to love talking to you and you\u2019re going to have so much fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>You\u2019re so right about that. I was going to say, too, when I read that I was like, oh I am totally going to do this. So I started doing it on everybody I knew. And nobody notices that I\u2019m doing it. Like I felt like they\u2019re all going to know that I\u2019m doing it because I\u2019m being obnoxious. Nobody noticed it. They just get really involved in what I\u2019m saying. Like what they\u2019re saying.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah. They\u2019re having the best time and you\u2019re having the best time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>And a quick clarification to this, I think in the book you mentioned it\u2019s not necessarily the last three words someone says but it\u2019s the critical three words in the last bit of what they said, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Once you get your feel and the last one to three words, it doesn\u2019t take any practice. You don\u2019t got to listen for anything special. So you get your feel for mirroring up and then that frees up your brain so then now you start to look for critical words.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Critical words?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>You look for critical words. So you\u2019re right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I\u2019m just going to keep doing this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>And a friend of mine in Los Angeles, Ned Colletti, he\u2019s a former GM of the Dodgers. Ned\u2019s a superstar. He\u2019s got a great book out now called <em>The Big Chair<\/em>. You want to know what it\u2019s like to be the GM of the Los Angeles Dodgers? Read Ned\u2019s book. But Ned used to always say in every two hours conversation, there\u2019s 90 seconds of solid gold. That\u2019s what you would mirror. Ned\u2019s got an ear for what\u2019s really important. He\u2019s a classic great practitioner. He didn\u2019t know what he was doing, he just was doing it. So there\u2019s always going to be critical things in a conversation and that\u2019s exactly what you want to mirror when you get good and you get good from practicing on the last one to three words.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I love it. I love it. All right, well I want to encourage everyone and those people listening to this show right now, do it and let us know in the comments section below this podcast over on the Show Notes page, which is BiggerPockets.com\/Show260 , let us know how that turns out for you. I kind of want to read those stories so check it out at BiggerPockets.com\/Show260.<\/p>\n<p>With that, I actually want to shift gears to the next segment of the show which we lovingly refer to as our Fire Round.<\/p>\n<p><em>It\u2019s time for the Fire Round. <\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>All right, let\u2019s get to the Fire Round. Normally, the Fire Round is a collection of questions that come directly out of our forums. However, being that this isn\u2019t specifically a real estate show, I\u2019m not going to ask you how do you find deals and all of that stuff. I thought we would actually change this up a little bit. If you\u2019re up for a little bit of fun here, I\u2019m sure people will ask you this occasionally\u2014I thought it\u2019d be fun to kind of do a mock negotiation on a piece of real estate. Does that sound good to you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, let\u2019s go for it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>All right, so in this situation\u2014Scott, do you want to be involved or do you want to do it or do you want to do it together? How do you want to do this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>I\u2019ll leave it to you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Okay. All right. So I\u2019ll say that I am trying to\u2014I called you because I saw I don\u2019t know\u2014you have a big banner out on the highway that says that you buy properties and I\u2019ve got a nasty property. And I want to sell it. I\u2019ve got this problem, just a little back story, I\u2019ve got a property, I kept it as a rental for a while. I don\u2019t like being a landlord. I just want to get rid of it. So, I call you up and I say, hi, I heard you buy properties. And I\u2019m looking to sell.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, all right. Yeah, excellent. I mean, what do you got in mind? What are you thinking? What are you up against here?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I\u2019ve got this three-bedroom house over in a marginal area and I\u2019m just kind of feeling out the idea of whether I want to sell it or not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Marginal area?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, it\u2019s kind of like there\u2019s that Starbucks down the street but it\u2019s starting to get into that neighborhood that gets a little bit sketchy down there by the railroad tracks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Sounds like you\u2019ve been dealing with this for a while.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah. I\u2019ve had it for three years, four years now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Sounds to me like you had some real aspirations for this when you first got it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I mean, at the time, I had read this book <em>Rich Dad, Poor Dad<\/em> and I wanted to be a real estate investor but man, it\u2019s just a lot harder work than I thought it would be.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>So you really have put a lot into this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Tons. I mean, I\u2019ve probably been there every week for the past four years working on something that\u2019s breaking or dealing with an eviction or a tenant. Driving me crazy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>You know, people have no idea how hard this stuff is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>They don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Everybody on the outside, they think this stuff looks easy. You\u2019ve been knocking yourself out for years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, I mean everybody talks about how easy it is but man, they just don\u2019t know. So I\u2019m just thinking maybe I\u2019ll sell it and I\u2019m wondering what you can pay me for it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Well, it sounds like you\u2019ve put a lot of thought into this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>A little bit. I mean, I\u2019m not exactly sure how much to sell it for. Some real estate agent told me it as worth around $300,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Some real estate agent?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah. A buddy of mine, his brother is a real estate agent so we were thinking about maybe listing with him but agents just, they\u2019re annoying. They want me to clean the house all up and they take their big commission checks. I thought maybe I\u2019d save the buyer a little bit of money and just go direct.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, I\u2019m interested. But you\u2019ve got people you could talk to. You\u2019ve done a lot of research. I mean, why me? What can I do for you? Why would you call me?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I mean, I saw your sign on the highway and it just looks like this is what you do and I like working with professionals. If this is what you do, it just would make it easier, I think.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>But you wouldn\u2019t call me just based on seeing a sign. I mean, that\u2019s crazy. How can I help you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I mean, if you want to buy the property, that would help me a lot. I just would like to sell it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>All right. It sounds to me like this has been a frustration with you for a long time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, definitely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>You had some aspirations for this in the past but you\u2019re kind of fed up with it, would like to take as much as you can get.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>But just kind of put it behind you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, definitely. I would love to put it behind me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Well, for me, I mean I\u2019ve got some constraints. I mean, it would be hard for me to know what I\u2019m getting into without actually seeing the place. I\u2019d love to do this with you if I could. We\u2019d have to do it in a way that would work for me. And for it to work for me\u2014you\u2019re not going to like this and I don\u2019t blame you for walking away, but for me to make it work for me, I\u2019m going to have to come in and the price is probably less than what you might get if you waited longer. Because I\u2019ve got a lot of the same problems. I\u2019m going to have to turn this thing over. I can help you solve this relatively quickly but it might not be worth it to you to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Well, I mean I want to do it. I think it\u2019s worth moving forward. I mean, I know all the agents have $300,000 but that\u2019s pretty high. I know that it\u2019s not worth that but do you have a number that would work for me?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Well, I got a number but I gotta tell you something. It\u2019s low. My number is low. You\u2019re going to hate it. It\u2019s going to be lower than what you expected and it\u2019s going to be less than what you thought you were going to get.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Low\u2014I mean, how low are we talking?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>$5,000. Let me ask you something though. Let me talk about what I just did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, please. I want to. I like the, \u201cyou\u2019re not going to like it\u201d. When I read your book, I really like that part.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, so human wiring. Caveman wiring. It doesn\u2019t matter what your gender is. It doesn\u2019t matter what your ethnicity is. In order to keep us alive, the human wiring had to have a negativity to positivity ratio of about three to one. You know, we predict 17 of the two actual calamities that are going to happen because in the caveman days, the two actual calamities are going to kill us. There would be a sabretooth tiger or grizzly bear in that cave that we\u2019re thinking about going and sleeping in.<\/p>\n<p>But in today\u2019s survival, that completely works against us. So if I\u2019m going to throw a number out, I need you to think of a number that\u2019s worse than what I\u2019ve thrown out so that my number is actually going to be really good. So you\u2019re not going to like this. This is going to be low. And then I\u2019m going to let your caveman wiring kick into gear, the three to one negativity ratio. I\u2019m going to have a feel for, I\u2019m going to know in advance what I\u2019m going to do to make this work. And I know you\u2019re not going to like it so I\u2019m going to make you imagine worse.<\/p>\n<p>So I get on basic even market, if your aspiration is $300,000, that\u2019s probably $300,000 as the best house with the same number of bedrooms and bathrooms in the best neighborhood. But this is not a best house and it ain\u2019t in that neighborhood. Or it actually might be the best house in that neighborhood. Maybe you\u2019ve gone and you tried to be a little bit more reasonable and you looked at the top eight in your neighborhood, so if the house was not a fixer-upper when it\u2019s all finished and done, this might be the top price.<\/p>\n<p>But you\u2019re also going to have seen the low prices and then you\u2019re going to say to yourself, oh my God, if it\u2019s $300,000, maybe you find out about a foreclosure that was sold for $75,000. You gotta have that information. I\u2019m probably not going to come in at the $75,000 number but I don\u2019t want you to be disappointed when I come in at $100,000. So I\u2019m kicking in your caveman wiring to get you to imagine worse so if I finally do throw in a number, and I may actually throw in my low-end number. We\u2019ll find out if it\u2019s a lot more effective than throwing in a low-end range. If I say, a house like that, I mean $75,000-$100,000. And you\u2019re going to hear that $75,000 and be happy with $100,000.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ve done two or three things there to then stimulate, put you in an emotionally place where you want to say yeah, I\u2019ll take the $100K. Because I\u2019ve throw this stuff out there. There\u2019s human reactions that are going in. If I throw in my low number naked, if you will, you\u2019re going to think you can get more and I will not have triggered that negative reaction with you to begin with. If I want to buy the house at $150K, I might throw $100K looking to settle at $150K. You might have gone for $100K if I had thrown it at you and dressed it up differently emotionally.<\/p>\n<p>So there\u2019s some reactions here that\u2019s going to take place and what\u2019s going to take place is, if I threw a number, for lack of a better term, naked. Then you\u2019re going to want more. You\u2019re not going to be satisfied. Let\u2019s say I was really honest with you and I gave you my deep down honest price of $100K. You\u2019ll never be happy with that number. You\u2019ll always think you could have gotten more which means we\u2019re going to have problems at escrow and we\u2019re going to have problems at inspections. Every opportunity you have to back out because you had second thoughts because you agreed to my number, you\u2019re going to stick me back. You\u2019re going to try to get me back.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Let me tell you from my side what I felt there as the person who wants to sell my house. I love the fact that you came at me with \u201cYou\u2019re not going to like this\u201d. I love it. Because initially, my thought was, he\u2019s going to offer me $12,000. I\u2019m going to hang up this phone. So if you did then come back to me with $75,000-$100,000, that\u2019s where we stopped the negotiation thing. But also, you came at\u2014your line about, \u201cPeople just don\u2019t realize how hard this is\u201d, like even though I was faking this negotiation, I was like, that\u2019s right. They don\u2019t. In real life, I was like, they don\u2019t get it.<\/p>\n<p>Instantly, I was like, this Chris guy, I don\u2019t know if you\u2019re a landlord at all but you get this. You know this stuff. It\u2019s hard. And the fact that you said that, you empathized with me, this is hard. It\u2019s not my fault that I\u2019m getting rid of this property. I didn\u2019t lose it. I didn\u2019t mess up. It\u2019s just a hard business. And I don\u2019t want to be in it anymore. I really like those two things. That\u2019s what I felt when you were negotiating with me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, what all that does, of course\u2014first of all, I\u2019m not faking. I mean, I\u2019m listening to you, I\u2019m dialing in, I\u2019m appreciating you and I\u2019m respecting you. That\u2019s the missionary side of me. The mercenary side of me, though, also is, I know we gotta go through escrow. And you\u2019re going to have all sorts of opportunities to go sideways.<\/p>\n<p>And one of the most critical factors in whether or not you\u2019re going to go sideways is how you were treated in the process, how you felt about the process, whether or not you felt respected and appreciated, whether or not you got the best deal you could have or whether or not you felt like you got beat into it. Because this is the mercenary in me, is doing this for a reason. And I know what the process looks like.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome. Scott, anything you want to add in there about like the dialogue we just had?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Yeah, it was just fascinating to see these tactics in practice, I think, and just kind of watch how you guys\u2014if anybody can, I would encourage you to watch the YouTube version as well because you can actually see how Chris and Brandon are reacting to these statements they\u2019re doing, the body language. And I think it really impacted part of the negotiations here. You could see, hey, it was really\u2014I see that this must be difficult for you. I think that was an important component of this whole thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Body language and tone of voice tell you exactly what\u2019s going on behind the guys\u2019 eyes while the conversation is taking place. And the reaction to it also\u2014I will run a script in my head while I\u2019m talking to somebody because it\u2019ll make all the difference in the world in my tone of voice and how they react to it. Like, if I\u2019m looking at you and I\u2019m thinking, you\u2019re the dumbest person I\u2019ve ever heard, that\u2019s going to come out of my voice and your emotional intelligence is going to pick that up. It\u2019s going to kill my rapport. But while I\u2019m talking, I\u2019m like yeah, wow. In the back of my head, it\u2019s like, you worked really hard on this. You really have been through a lot. It\u2019s been really hard on you. That\u2019s going to come out in my voice and you\u2019re also going to pick that up and we\u2019re going to shorten the distance between it as well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Fantastic.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>One of the things I noticed, real quick, is Chris you basically forced Brandon to give away all the information in the negotiation. You didn\u2019t give him anything about your position at all from that. And I\u2019m wondering if that might be a big challenge for me or for maybe some other newbies in practicing this because we\u2019re going to want to\u2014some of the times when Brandon would say things, he wanted you to give away some information to name a price, to reveal something about yourself and you just politely, obviously professionally refuse to do so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Yeah, that\u2019s the great thing about this approach. You gather tons of information without giving any of it yourself. Now, there\u2019s another issue here, too, which we call proof of life of the deal. Maybe Brandon\u2019s calling me and he has no intention of making this deal with me. He just wants to pump me for information. That happens a lot. And if they\u2019re out there pumping people for information, it\u2019s also your opportunity\u2014is this guy a legitimate prospect or is my dealing with him going to change into a legitimate prospect? And so the feeling of being appreciated and understood, I don\u2019t give up any information.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not invested in this deal and I might just flip him from an unqualified prospect to a qualified prospect. And actually, we don\u2019t believe in always be closing. For lack of a better term, we believe in always be gathering information and always be qualifying. If you\u2019re gathering information to qualify, the close will come. But if your desire is to always be closing, probably the trap I\u2019ll fall into, Brandon knows that he can call me and pump me for information because I\u2019m going to be so in lusting for closing that I\u2019m just going to give all the information that he wants and he\u2019s going to confirm and say, well, I\u2019ve got experience in that area and the actual range would be this, this, and this.<\/p>\n<p>Or I\u2019ve got experience in that area and the one thing that\u2019s holding sellers back is the particular type of repair. I\u2019m willing to show off how smart I am and it\u2019s amazing how much painting a house makes a difference in value and he\u2019s going to paint the house before he puts it on the market. I may give him\u2014I may try to demonstrate all this expertise to think I\u2019m getting the deal when in fact, he\u2019s just pumping me for information so there\u2019s a real danger in that and I think it\u2019s gotta be 40-50% of the interactions that we\u2019re in. Where they\u2019re just pumping us for information and when they get that information out of us, they\u2019re going to move on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah, that actually does happen quite a bit like if I send out direct-mail letters to people, I get a lot of phone calls of people who just want me to tell them what they should go and do to their house to fix it up or what they should go list it at, even figuring out what I\u2019m doing. So very, very common. So cool.<\/p>\n<p>All right, well let\u2019s shift one last time to the last segment of our show which we lovingly refer to as our <em>Famous Four<\/em>. Let\u2019s get to today\u2019s Famous Four. These are the same four questions we ask every guest every week here on the podcast. I\u2019m going to tweak the first one a little bit being that this isn\u2019t a real estate investor interview.<\/p>\n<p>The first one is usually, what\u2019s your favorite real estate book, and the second one is what\u2019s your favorite business book? But I want to tweak the first question from real estate book to just what resources do you enjoy and do you read? Like blogs, newspapers\u2014what do you enjoy reading?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>A blog that I\u2019m a regular reader of is Eric Barker\u2019s blog.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>We just had him on the show.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>I love Eric\u2019s stuff. He\u2019s actually turned me onto a lot of resources that actually works in negotiations and communications across the board so I love Eric\u2019s blog. And I know Eric personally. I love his book and his blog and he\u2019s a great guy. Smart guy, too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>He was Episode, I think it was 259 in the podcast. It might have been 258 or 257. But if you guys want to listen to that, go to BiggerPockets.com\/podcast. It was a fantastic interview. So check it out. All right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Question number two, you mentioned a couple of books on the show already, including Eric\u2019s. Do you have a favorite business book in general that you\u2019d recommend for real estate investors?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>I\u2019ve got to tell you, forgive me, this is going to seem completely shameless. We get so many people that are using my book in real estate. And actually it\u2019s probably the largest growing segment of the people that we are specifically servicing now. We\u2019re putting much more effort into people involved in real estate of all kinds. And it was the reason they tend it as a negotiation book for everybody and we\u2019re diving deep into real estate these days.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s cool. You know, I\u2019ll tweak the question a little bit. This is something that Tim Ferriss asks a lot, is there a book that you give as a gift other than your own that you\u2019ve ever gifted the most? What book would you give to somebody as a gift if it wasn\u2019t your own?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>There\u2019s several there that I\u2019m into a lot. I read, I think it\u2019s <em>The Psychology of Flow. <\/em>I\u2019m reading stuff about Flow these days. Fascinating. Steven Kotler is the author. It tells a lot of stories about phenomenal X-games athletes and this whole idea, I think it\u2019s the next generation of business performance will come from understanding the psychology of flow. I will also tell you a book that I probably am going to be giving away a little bit more. It\u2019s not a business book, it\u2019s <em>U2 by U2<\/em>. And it is a brilliant book. Think of You Too as a business that has lasted ridiculously successfully for 30 plus years.<\/p>\n<p>How many business enterprises of a team of four individuals together in the entertainment business have held together for as long of a period of time as those guys have? And they talk a lot\u2014you get to know the dynamics of how they trusted each other, the mistakes that they made in not trusting each other different times, their determination to have a mixed bag of personalities and how they blended those personalities together and work as a team.<\/p>\n<p>There\u2019s an old saying, \u201cYou want to go fast, go along. You want to go far, go as a team\u201d. These guys are kind of like the ultimate team players in a ridiculously successful enterprise that happen to be in the entertainment business. And I have found that to be fascinating and I love their music and I love the themes behind their music and these guys were four average guys. I mean, there was\u2014you saw nothing special in these guys other than Bono as a teenager got into a lot of dangerous fights. He was a brawler and almost a gang member. But they\u2019re four very diverse guys so to me, it\u2019s a great book on team concept and I really enjoy that book a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s a unique way of looking at it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Just to chime in here, I googled it real quick. I think that the other book may be <em>The Rise of Superman<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong><em>The Rise of Superman<\/em>. Yeah, there you go. <em>The Rise of Superman.<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>By Steven Kotler.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>That\u2019s a fascinating and fun and really thought-provoking read. And it gives you insight, like if you can get in the flow and it\u2019s all about triggering psychologically your own brain\u2019s production of different chemicals. Like, one of the things that I remember reading, like cocaine is this ridiculously addicting drug because you get great energy, your pattern recognition is very high, your creativity is very high. Cocaine is a drug\u2014all it does to you is it triggers your own body\u2019s releases of dopamine. It\u2019s you on your own brain chemicals. It increases your own internal releases of dopamine and decreases your reabsorption of it. You don\u2019t need cocaine to do that. You can learn to trigger that at will yourself.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome. So, what do you do for fun? What are some of your hobbies?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>I love spontaneous travel. I\u2019ve got a Harley. If I can jump on my Harley and just find out where the bike is going to take me, I mean I dig that. I used to live on a boat. Let me untie it and see where the boat is going to go. So one of the things that I enjoy the most is I love spontaneous travel. That is anything that\u2019s adventurous in discovering places and people that I haven\u2019t seen before.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Awesome. I love that, too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>That sounds like a lot of fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I don\u2019t have a Harley though but I\u2019ll get there. Number four, last question from me of the day. What do you believe sets apart successful\u2014we\u2019ll say real estate investors or just anybody\u2014from those who give up, they fail or they never get started with what they\u2019re trying to do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>You know, it\u2019s optimism and resilience. That has a tendency\u2014what\u2019s your mindset? Like, as a hostage negotiator, I think I really raised the level of my game when I realized we\u2019re not guaranteed to succeed but we\u2019re guaranteed the best chance of success. We\u2019re going to fail. You\u2019re going to make mistakes. They say perfection is the enemy of profitability. I mean, being willing to fail and make mistakes. Not kill yourself over it. Which is actually a lot of what flow is about. Flow is, there are a number of people that their natural state is flow. Adolescents. They walk around in nearly a state of flow all the time because they fall down, they don\u2019t care.<\/p>\n<p>Now, as an adult, we don\u2019t want to fall down. We don\u2019t want to be reckless financially. Or we don\u2019t want to be reckless physically because then we hurt ourselves and we don\u2019t heal. But then playing it safe physically goes across the board and we start playing it too safe across the board and we\u2019re afraid to embarrass ourselves. We\u2019re afraid to make a mistake. And that causes us to see 19 of the two actual calamities that are going to happen. Getting back into, I feel okay, who cares? Who really cares? Let me take a chance and find out what\u2019s going to happen. That\u2019s where great discovery comes from.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Yeah. Well, cool. Scott, take us out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Chris, where can people find out more about you and where do people buy your book?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>All right, Amazon is consistently the best price. <em>Never Split the Difference<\/em> on Amazon and if you have any reservations about it, go in there and read some of the reviews. They\u2019ll tell you it\u2019s readable and it\u2019s game-changing. People started making\u2014you\u2019re five pages into the book and you\u2019ve got stuff that you could use. So Amazon\u2014I don\u2019t work for Amazon. That\u2019s just hands down the best price.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>If you want to take a deeper dive, I mean a really deep dive and get the gateway training that we offer, subscribe to our newsletter, which is <em>The Edge<\/em>. It comes out about once a week. It\u2019s free. I\u2019ve got a friend that used to say, if it\u2019s free, I\u2019ll take three. A lot of people that read the book also love <em>The Edge<\/em> because it\u2019s a great supplement and it\u2019s short, digestivable bites, operational stuff. It\u2019ll take you three minutes to read through it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Where do they go to get that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>Quick and easy way to subscribe is to send a text to the number 22828 and send \u201cFBIEmpathy\u201d all one word, don\u2019t let your spellcheck put a space between FBI and Empathy and make sure you override that. \u201cFBIEmpathy\u201d, all one word, to 22828. You\u2019ll get a text box back and sign up for the newsletter. But then it\u2019s a gateway to everything we do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I\u2019m going to do it right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome. Me, too.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Thank you, Chris. This was fantastic, really really good stuff. I can\u2019t\u2014this is one of those books I feel like I can put on my list, like read every quarter because I\u2019m going to need to re-polish my skills and get them better. I just appreciate you putting it together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Chris: <\/strong>My pleasure, guys. Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Awesome, thanks.<\/p>\n<p>All righty, and that is our interview with Chris Voss. That was fun. That was a lot of fun. What do you think, Scott?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>I thought it was great. I\u2019m a big fan of this guy. I just love his story and obviously, he has one of the most distinguished careers I can really imagine someone having, saving lives, rescuing hostages, decades of experience dealing with terrorists and robbers and criminals and just applying that now to the business world in a way that we can understand and use. Awesome, awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>That\u2019s fantastic. Already today, ever since reading this book, I\u2019ve been just putting these little things that I\u2019ve learned, like little tips like mirroring in the things that I do and it\u2019s been awesome. So yeah, go and try it. Podcasts, this stuff is great but like the real goal of podcasts is to learn something that will apply to your life. So go out and do this in your life. Don\u2019t be afraid to negotiate a little bit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>And one little quick tip here, I tried signing up for his newsletter and had a little trouble with his thing about texting 22828 \u201cFBIEmpathy\u201d. I had a little trouble with that. So if you struggle with that, you can just Google Chris Voss Newsletter and the first result there will help you sign up if you\u2019re interested in that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>There you go. All right. Good deal. So with that, we\u2019ve got to get out of here. Real quick, can I have your shirt? I like that shirt a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>It\u2019s blue.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I want to buy it. Yeah, how much for that shirt?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Give me two or three signed copies of your book and you can have it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I can have it? Sounds like you\u2019ve thought a lot about this, Scott.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Are you negotiating with me for my shirt off my back?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I tried to negotiate the shirt off your back. All right, guys.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>You\u2019re going to take everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>I don\u2019t split the difference. All right, let\u2019s get out of here. For BiggerPockets.com, my name is Brandon and this is\u2014<\/p>\n<p><strong>Scott: <\/strong>Scott Trench.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Brandon: <\/strong>Signing off.<\/p>\n<p><em>Y<\/em><em>ou\u2019re listening to BiggerPockets Radio, simplifying real estate for investors, large and small. 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It takes just 30 seconds and instructions can be found <a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/forums\/25\/topics\/161423-do-you-listen-to-the-bp-podcast\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">here<\/a>. Thanks! We really appreciate it!<\/p>\n<h2>This Show Sponsored By<\/h2>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignright size-medium wp-image-95450\" src=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review-300x66.png\" alt=\"Fundrise\" width=\"300\" height=\"66\" title=\"\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review-300x66.png 300w, https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review-768x168.png 768w, https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/01\/fundrise-review.png 775w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\" \/>Today&#8217;s Bigger Pockets podcast is brought you by <strong>Fundrise<\/strong>&#8212; an award-winning, first-of-its-kind real estate investment platform. Back in 2012, Fundrise created the first simple, low-cost way to invest in real estate private equity without being an accredited investor. Now *you* can unlock a world of investing that used to be reserved only for institutional-caliber investors.<\/p>\n<p>Learn more by visiting<span class=\"m_-4125522020747338454gmail-m_2335730214410924529gmail-Apple-converted-space\">\u00a0<\/span><a href=\"http:\/\/fundrise.com\/biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" data-saferedirecturl=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/url?hl=en&amp;q=http:\/\/fundrise.com\/biggerpockets&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1515110049930000&amp;usg=AFQjCNEvi3BMCZ8CTw0_ITgXrlcJlXsYEA\">Fundrise.com\/biggerpo<wbr \/>ckets<\/a><\/p>\n<h2>Fire Round\u00a0Sponsor<\/h2>\n<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-77567 alignright\" src=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/simplisafe.png\" alt=\"simplisafe\" width=\"271\" height=\"58\" title=\"\">Check out <strong>SimpliSafe<\/strong> Security&#8217;s DIY home security systems; an affordable, wireless, cellular, and customizable system that doesn&#8217;t require a contract!<\/p>\n<p>Try it today with a discount:\u00a0<a href=\"http:\/\/simplisafepockets.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">simplisafepockets.com<\/a><\/p>\n<h2>In This Episode We Cover:<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li>A look at Chris&#8217;s <strong>background<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>The story of the <strong>bank robbery<\/strong> in Brooklyn<\/li>\n<li>What the strategy of\u00a0<strong>mirroring<\/strong> is<\/li>\n<li>What it means when a person doesn&#8217;t <strong>give his name<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>How to use <strong>listening<\/strong> as an advanced skill<\/li>\n<li>Tips for applying negotiation to<strong> business settings<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>The role negotiating plays in<strong> real estate<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>The thing <strong>more important than the deal<\/strong> in negotiation<\/li>\n<li>The secret to <strong>gaining the upper hand<\/strong> in a negotiation<\/li>\n<li>Tips for negotiating in a <strong>real estate deal<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>The power of <strong>deference<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>What you should know about <strong>anchoring<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>How to take advantage of <strong>rounds of bargaining<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>Why you should consider <strong>odd number pricing<\/strong><\/li>\n<li>Why <strong>no<\/strong> is more powerful than yes<\/li>\n<li>The <strong>learning curve<\/strong> for this skill<\/li>\n<li><strong>And SO much more!<\/strong><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Links from the Show<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/forums\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Forums<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"\/renewsblog\/biggerpockets-podcast-259-old-school-investing-wisdom-60-years-mike-anderson\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Podcast 259: Old-School Investing Wisdom from 60+ Years with Mike Anderson<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.bakadesuyo.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Eric Barker&#8217;s Blog<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"\/renewsblog\/biggerpockets-podcast-256-surprising-scientific-truth-successful-eric-barker\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">BiggerPockets Podcast 256: The Surprising (Scientific) Truth Behind What Makes You Successful with Eric Barker<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Books Mentioned in this Show<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/richdadpoordad\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Rich Dad Poor Dad<\/em><\/a> by Robert Kiyosaki<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2CKwJT5\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Never Eat Alone<\/em><\/a> by\u00a0Keith Ferrazzi<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2lOYbqM\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Never Split the Difference<\/em><\/a> by Chris Voss<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2EP78ZU\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People<\/em><\/a> by Stephen Covey<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2CwkL1A\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>Getting to Yes<\/em><\/a> by Roger Fisher<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2CijyaF\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>The Rise of Superman<\/em><\/a> by\u00a0Steven Kotler<\/li>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2EKYeMJ\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><em>U2 by U2<\/em><\/a>\u00a0by U2 &amp; Neil McCormick<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Tweetable Topics:<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li>&#8220;If you want big stakes results, you need to practice in low stakes negotiation.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22If%20you%20want%20big%20stakes%20results,%20you%20need%20to%20practice%20in%20low%20stakes%20negotiation.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20260%20biggerpockets.com\/show260%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>\u201cThe last impression is a lasting impression.\u201d (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%E2%80%9CThe%20last%20impression%20is%20a%20lasting%20impression.%E2%80%9D%20BP%20Podcast%20260%20biggerpockets.com\/show260%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;There&#8217;s always something in a negotiation for everybody that is more important than actually making a deal.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22There&#039;s%20always%20something%20in%20a%20negotiation%20for%20everybody%20that%20is%20more%20important%20than%20actually%20making%20a%20deal.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20260%20biggerpockets.com\/show260%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;You get what you want by hearing the other side out.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22You%20get%20what%20you%20want%20by%20hearing%20the%20other%20side%20out.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20260%20biggerpockets.com\/show260%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<li>&#8220;The secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control.&#8221; (<a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/home?status=%22The%20secret%20to%20gaining%20the%20upper%20hand%20in%20a%20negotiation%20is%20giving%20the%20other%20side%20the%20illusion%20of%20control.%22%20BP%20Podcast%20260%20biggerpockets.com\/show260%20%40biggerpockets\" target=\"_blank\">Tweet This!<\/a>)<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Connect with Chris<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"http:\/\/blackswanltd.com\/about\/team\/chris-voss\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Chris&#8217;s Newsletter<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Today, we\u2019re sitting down with Chris Voss, former FBI negotiator &#038; author of Never Split the Difference, to learn negotiation stories, strategies &#038; tactics.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":17340,"featured_media":117962,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[4565],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-95398","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-biggerpockets-podcast"],"acf":[],"comment_count":0,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/95398","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/17340"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=95398"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/95398\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/117962"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=95398"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=95398"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.biggerpockets.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=95398"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}