Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map

21 Replies

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Originally posted by @Ben Halabi :

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.


Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Originally posted by @Robert Matelski :
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Originally posted by @Ben Halabi :
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Originally posted by @Robert Matelski :
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Fellas........there no need for you to fight over which one of you did a better job emulating me.... Everyone is still going to be looking at my content anyway....POW POW

Originally posted by @James Wise :
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Fellas........there no need for you to fight over which one of you did a better job emulating me.... Everyone is still going to be looking at my content anyway....POW POW

Emulate is a stretch for my map (though it's probably spot on for the B2B one). My approach was purely data-driven with a documented methodology and sources... I considered using my outlandishly deep knowledge of the Cleveland market to add a subjective overlay in cases where the data seemed skewed by something like a subsidized senior citizen high-rise (dragging down incomes, homeowner rates, etc. and therefore causing an undue hit to the area's grade... think the apartment buildings on Clifton in Edgewater for example) or a semi-fancy newer development surrounded mostly by rather dumpy older stuff (pulling up incomes, homeowner rates, etc. and therefore causing an undue boost to the area's grade... think Mill Creek off of Turney for example) but I decided against it mainly because I didn't want to allow subjectivity into it at all and then get accused of encouraging discriminatory practices or any bs like that.

But... at the end of the day James you do have that first mover advantage (and I commend you for making the map in the first place even though I disagree with some of your assessment), so you'll likely continue to get the majority of the traffic, at least for the foreseeable future.

Originally posted by @James Wise :
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Fellas........there no need for you to fight over which one of you did a better job emulating me.... Everyone is still going to be looking at my content anyway....POW POW

 Lol 

Originally posted by @Ben Halabi :
Originally posted by @James Wise:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Fellas........there no need for you to fight over which one of you did a better job emulating me.... Everyone is still going to be looking at my content anyway....POW POW

 Lol 

Ben we're going to have to tell @Jad Boudiab that I am considering charging him a licensing fee for utilizing my content.

Originally posted by @James Wise :
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @James Wise:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Fellas........there no need for you to fight over which one of you did a better job emulating me.... Everyone is still going to be looking at my content anyway....POW POW

 Lol 

Ben we're going to have to tell @Jad Boudiab that I am considering charging him a licensing fee for utilizing my content.

 No deal, I've already taken @Federico Gutierrez off your hands, that pre-pays for any licensing fees you're contemplating.

Originally posted by @Robert Matelski :
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Robert, the entire map is based off of pricing, most recent 6-months of MLS sales to be exact. As a broker, that is the purest way to remain objective. If there's anything you disagree with, I'm happy to send over more MLS data on it.

There will always be disagreements on neighborhood grades, in the end a neighborhood grade is subjective, that's why we tried to stay objective to the market and chose to only use average pricing as a factor. I always laugh when I see properties in my D/F areas marketed as "Amazing CASH COW in C+ area!" by many wholesalers.

The map was truly a good touch but I'm a little confused. The Cleveland 44104 (WOODLAND HILLS) area was my very first multi family & its considered a D/F area via map. I have a $1300 cash flow after I fully renovated the property so I'm a little lost to why it's considered a D/F area & it cash flows better then some of the B/C area properties on the map. HELP ME understand. THANKS!

@Erik E.

Typically riskier areas (D/F) will cash flow higher than B/C, so what you are saying makes a lot of sense. 

I too have put together a map using data from the annual Census to generate the grades (A to F) 

If we look at the same geographies but with rent to price ratios, it's clear that lower ranked areas tend to produce higher yields (on paper at least) 

Grades Map

Rent to Price Ratio Map

Linear Regression model comparing raw grades (0 to 1) and rent to price ratios. The numerical mappings are:

- 0.0 ≤ x < 0.2 = F

- 0.2 ≤ x < 0.4 = D

- 0.4 ≤ x < 0.6 = C

- 0.6 ≤ x < 0.8 = B

- 0.8 ≤ x ≤ 1.0 = A

As you can see, as the score increases, the rent to price decreases 

Link to Interactive Chart

And lastly, here are the average rent to price ratios for each grade cohort

Originally posted by @Erik E. :

The map was truly a good touch but I'm a little confused. The Cleveland 44104 (WOODLAND HILLS) area was my very first multi family & its considered a D/F area via map. I have a $1300 cash flow after I fully renovated the property so I'm a little lost to why it's considered a D/F area & it cash flows better then some of the B/C area properties on the map. HELP ME understand. THANKS!

Hello Eric, thanks for your feedback on the map I am glad to hear that your property is doing well.

 Cash flow is somewhat independent from the neighborhood grade. If you know how to purchase and operate properly, you should be able to collect rent and cash flow in any neighborhood. 44104 wouldn't be my ideal neighborhood to invest in as I find it more risky, but I am sure there are investors making positive returns there.

Originally posted by @Art Perkitny :

@Erik E.

Typically riskier areas (D/F) will cash flow higher than B/C, so what you are saying makes a lot of sense. 

I too have put together a map using data from the annual Census to generate the grades (A to F) 

If we look at the same geographies but with rent to price ratios, it's clear that lower ranked areas tend to produce higher yields (on paper at least) 

Grades Map

Rent to Price Ratio Map

Linear Regression model comparing raw grades (0 to 1) and rent to price ratios. The numerical mappings are:

- 0.0 ≤ x < 0.2 = F

- 0.2 ≤ x < 0.4 = D

- 0.4 ≤ x < 0.6 = C

- 0.6 ≤ x < 0.8 = B

- 0.8 ≤ x ≤ 1.0 = A

As you can see, as the score increases, the rent to price decreases 

Link to Interactive Chart

And lastly, here are the average rent to price ratios for each grade cohort

whoa! Very interesting.

 

Originally posted by @Ben Halabi :
Originally posted by @Erik E.:

The map was truly a good touch but I'm a little confused. The Cleveland 44104 (WOODLAND HILLS) area was my very first multi family & its considered a D/F area via map. I have a $1300 cash flow after I fully renovated the property so I'm a little lost to why it's considered a D/F area & it cash flows better then some of the B/C area properties on the map. HELP ME understand. THANKS!

Hello Eric, thanks for your feedback on the map I am glad to hear that your property is doing well.

 Cash flow is somewhat independent from the neighborhood grade. If you know how to purchase and operate properly, you should be able to collect rent and cash flow in any neighborhood. 44104 wouldn't be my ideal neighborhood to invest in as I find it more risky, but I am sure there are investors making positive returns there.

Ok now I understand. thanks! Let me ask you Ben, what do you find more risky about it?

 

Originally posted by @Erik E. :
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Erik E.:

The map was truly a good touch but I'm a little confused. The Cleveland 44104 (WOODLAND HILLS) area was my very first multi family & its considered a D/F area via map. I have a $1300 cash flow after I fully renovated the property so I'm a little lost to why it's considered a D/F area & it cash flows better then some of the B/C area properties on the map. HELP ME understand. THANKS!

Hello Eric, thanks for your feedback on the map I am glad to hear that your property is doing well.

 Cash flow is somewhat independent from the neighborhood grade. If you know how to purchase and operate properly, you should be able to collect rent and cash flow in any neighborhood. 44104 wouldn't be my ideal neighborhood to invest in as I find it more risky, but I am sure there are investors making positive returns there.

Ok now I understand. thanks! Let me ask you Ben, what do you find more risky about it?

 

 On paper, cash flow in lower grade neighborhoods looks good. In reality, we find less qualified tenants, leading to more evictions, leading to higher turnover, more break-ins / property damage, and ongoing costs. Some will work out great for the owners, but in most cases it's a tough job managing F tenants especially from out of state.

Originally posted by @Jad Boudiab :
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:
Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
Originally posted by @Ben Halabi:

Based on the tremendously positive feedback that the Cleveland Price & Neighborhood Map has gotten from clients and users on BiggerPockets, we've decided to put more effort into making it an interactive map that can be zoomed to street level through the Google maps platform. The map has helped investors make more educated buying decisions. The new version now allows you to insert the address of the property you are considering and it gives you the grade on the area and the price range in that area. I look forward to hearing everyone’s opinions on the map.

Definitely appreciate the effort, and sorry to be a naysayer, but the map seems pretty flawed and arbitrary across the board. 

If I'm reading it right, you're saying this house on Neff Road off of Lakeshore in Cleveland's North Collinwood neighborhood (https://www.redfin.com/OH/Cleveland/17900-Neff-Rd-44119/home/66589005) is in the red zone (D-F grade), but this house on Elberon Avenue in East Cleveland (https://www.redfin.com/OH/East-Cleveland/1780-Elberon-Ave-44112/home/66588077) is in the yellow zone (B grade)?! This is just one of many examples that makes me majorly raise an eyebrow. (NOTE TO MODERATORS / ADMINS: I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EITHER PROPERTY LINKED... THEY ARE JUST EXAMPLE PROPERTIES.)

I really do worry about out of state investors seeing material like this, presented by brokers and PMs, and trusting it blindly when they plug an address in. This sort of flawed and arbitrary content being presented to investors is what drove me to create my own data-driven map, down to the census tract level, to define the grade of each area down to the most granular level.

Robert, all good notes here, I appreciate your feedback. 

It is never recommended for any investor to purchase property blindly without doing more research on the exact location. This is also mentioned in the article, to help investors understand that no map will negate the need for a CMA or proper due diligence.

As you may know, some Cleveland neighborhoods can vary from one street to the next. In regards to the property referenced on Elberton Ave, this specific location is less than .5 mile away from $300,000 homes on Wade Park Ave, and falls on the border between a mix of D and F neighborhoods. As an investor, you cannot simply assume that because a property is in a general B grade neighborhood, and borders rougher neighborhoods, that it won't experience a spill-over effect from its surrounding neighborhoods.

Again, I appreciate the feedback on this, but your remarks of the content being flawed and arbitrary are perceived as one-sided and inequitable. You're entitled to your own opinion of a neighborhood / map guide, which makes BP the great forum it has been, and it's great to see you have your own version. The feedback will certainly be considered in future revisions to the map itself. Best of luck.

Large swaths of your map are just straight up wrong, assuming you believe actual data matters more than  unsubstantiated assertions do. Yes, I agree that investors need to do their own due diligence, and also that there are sometimes cases where quality can vary on a street-by-street basis around the Cleveland area, but giving people info that’s biased and uninformed at best, and blatantly false at worst, as an agent or broker is somewhat unethical. If you want your map to be useful, then it should be more granular and based in data (with a clear traceable methodology explained, and data sources listed). 

Robert, the entire map is based off of pricing, most recent 6-months of MLS sales to be exact. As a broker, that is the purest way to remain objective. If there's anything you disagree with, I'm happy to send over more MLS data on it.

There will always be disagreements on neighborhood grades, in the end a neighborhood grade is subjective, that's why we tried to stay objective to the market and chose to only use average pricing as a factor. I always laugh when I see properties in my D/F areas marketed as "Amazing CASH COW in C+ area!" by many wholesalers.

Jad, I appreciate the explanation, and I understand the methodology you're explaining. I question whether the map really actually reflects what you've stated though. The boundaries of the areas you've drawn don't seem to consistently align with MLS area boundaries (or zip codes, or city boundaries, or census tract boundaries), which is what causes me to scratch my head and think they seem pretty arbitrary in many instances.

An example of this is the 'C' graded area ($78k average) you've drawn, starting at the intersection of Mayfield Rd. and Euclid Ave., extending northeast along Euclid to Superior, then up Superior Hill to the edge of Forest Hill Park, then follows the boundary of the park to Monticello then up Lee, then follows Forest Hills Blvd. then Nela View, and then follows Noble back down the hill to Euclid Ave., where it again follows Euclid Ave., to about the edge of Euclid Creek Reservation, then follows Glenridge up into South Euclid, jogs down to Monticello, goes south on Belvoir, then follows Elmwood back to Noble and juts down to Summit Park, which it follows to Cleveland Heights Blvd., then continues to Montevista to Oakridge to Yellowstone to Woodridge to Edison to Taylor, then goes south along Taylor to Superior then back to Lee, and at Euclid Heights heads back west to Coventry, which it follows north through Coventry Village until it hits Mayfield, then follows Mayfield west back to the starting point. Whew, what a journey. The area you've drawn here contains portions of Cleveland, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, and South Euclid (touching on zips 44106, 44112, 44118, 44121, and 44117) and seems far from sufficiently homogeneous to make it one single area as you've drawn it (assuming price is your only driver). A subset of this area (in Cleveland Heights), bounded by Coventry, Mayfield, Euclid Heights, and Lee, shows sales between $157k and $299k over the past 6 months. Another subset of this area (in East Cleveland), bounded by Lakeview Cemetery, Superior, and Euclid Avenue shows literally no sales over the past 6 months (perhaps because it's so blighted). While yet another subset of this area (in Cleveland), bounded by Euclid Ave., Belvoir, and Cliffview has sales ranging from $24k to $36.5k. And finally, just for fun, a 4th subset of this area (in Cleveland, "Little Italy"), bounded by Mayfield, the rapid transit tracks, Euclid Avenue, and Lakeview Cemetery has sales ranging from $114k to $473k. I'm honestly baffled by this area on your map (which seems to be highly specifically drawn) and its 'C' label.

Another example of an area where the data does not seem to match what you've called out is the area bounded by Lakeshore Blvd., E. 185th, Lake Erie, and Wildwood Park/Euclid Creek, which you have labeled 'C' as well. Basically the northeastern corner of North Collinwood. At least this area is actually pretty homogeneous so at least I'll give you that. I'm seeing MLS sold listings from $100K at the low end (17420 Schenely) to $130K (17824 Landseer)... so seems odd that you've labeled it 'C' rather than 'C+' or 'B' based on your scale and your stated parameters.

Have you ever talked to @Art Perkitny before? Like you, he's a smart young go-getter... if he's open to it, you might consider engaging him for a consultation on how to best use the sea of data that's out there to show what you're aiming to show and make your case about what area should get what grade based on price points. He seems to be a master at the data analysis craft, and he has some pretty cool and useful maps.

And for the record, I am with you 100% on laughing about how so many wholesalers (and sometimes turnkey providers) label their properties' location grades. They seem to be grading on a curve, where 'C' is the absolute lowest grade that is ever given out.

@Robert Matelski  

These are all great observations; first, we must note that no reasonable investor is just buying property off of what they see in a map at a quick glance. Second, we must note that the 6 months of MLS comps run between late Nov 2018, and late May 2019, as the map was created an published in end of May. And lastly, while some of your observations would be accurate if we were to complete this on a street-by-street basis, it's nearly impossible to isolate certain neighborhoods when generalizing an entire neighborhood due to a. the region was either too small to isolate, or b. the region had too few sales to consider.

Going even deeper (closer look, almost street-by-street) into neighborhoods and analytics might show different results, that's where someone like @Art Perkitny might have more insight on or can configure. I had not come across his work until today, they seem to specialize in this, would be cool to whip up an interactive map using their data, and would save a ton of time.

One very good point in your feedback is the map's lack of outline based on zip codes, city boundaries, or census tract boundaries. This is a flaw, but not a major one. The map still is only based on average prices, and all of the neighborhoods you referenced are bordering two or more different grades. This is where that "spillover effect" happens, which is exactly why we recommended in the post for investors to always review comps of nearby sales. Sure there's room for improvement by going even deeper, almost street-level stuff, but that will take far too much time for a broker to dabble in :)


"The area you've drawn here contains portions of Cleveland, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, Euclid, and South Euclid (touching on zips 44106, 44112, 44118, 44121, and 44117) and seems far from sufficiently homogeneous to make it one single area as you've drawn it (assuming price is your only driver). A subset of this area (in Cleveland Heights), bounded by Coventry, Mayfield, Euclid Heights, and Lee, shows sales between $157k and $299k over the past 6 months.
Although there were some comps in the 30's during our 6-month period, this is a solid neighborhood. If we were to split it as its own we would likely have marked it a B area. In the .3 miles this area covers, it likely was diluted by lower comps in neighboring streets just outside of this geo-area you referenced, and thus lead to a lower grade. This could be avoided by your suggestion of using zip, city, or census data. Another subset of this area (in East Cleveland), bounded by Lakeview Cemetery, Superior, and Euclid Avenue shows literally no sales over the past 6 months (perhaps because it's so blighted). There are too few sales here, the entire area between Euclid Ave, Superior, and Mayfield only contained 3 sales comps, one of which is referenced below under Little Italy. This is a sub-market too small to dissect, considering only 3 comps in a 6 months span (.8 mile radius in total, only 3 comps. This is still inner city we're looking at, with homes feet apart from one another, not suburban where each home occupies several acres of land). Therefore, the neighborhood was looped under a similar grade of the surrounding areas. It's another one of those neighborhoods that's bordering a mix of neighborhood grades, there will be spillover, and the investor must look more deeply at each property. It's an area that would likely change upon future adjustments, when more sales comps are available. While yet another subset of this area (in Cleveland), bounded by Euclid Ave., Belvoir, and Cliffview has sales ranging from $24k to $36.5k. Another case where too few sales to consider, a $102,000 comp (2270 Belvoir) lead to a higher price and affected average pricing, thus affecting the neighborhood grade. This is another case where it's too small of a neighborhood to isolate, and too few sales, lead to producing such a result / grade. It also is another one of those neighborhoods that's bordering a mix of neighborhood grades (D to the north, lots of $100k+ comps to the south) where there will be spillover, and the investor must look more deeply at each property, but would likely change upon future adjustments and additional sales comps. And finally, just for fun, a 4th subset of this area (in Cleveland, "Little Italy"), bounded by Mayfield, the rapid transit tracks, Euclid Avenue, and Lakeview Cemetery has sales ranging from $114k to $473k. During the 6-months time-frame we considered, there was only one sale in the neighborhood you're referencing, for $145,000 (1940 East 124 Pl). Due to only have one sale to look over, we could not isolate it as its own sub-market just yet. This too was diluted by neighboring comps and may be reflected different in future revisions where a $400k sale (more recent sale that came after our 6-months timeframe) in the neighborhood would easily bump the rating.

The east side of town, and Cleveland proper in general, is far too intertwined to truly isolate it into hyper-local (pretty much street-by-street) levels. If we were to shift some of the neighborhood borders slightly, we would suddenly come up with different grades because one or two comps would have dropped or were added, making a big difference in a compact market. It does sound very cool to craft in theory, but I'll leave that for someone with more data and technology to work on. I would still be cautious about providing a super hyper-local map to rely on, which increases temptations for investors to blindly follow a map due to its accuracy at its time of creation, and placing lesser importance on recent comps to their subject property.

@Robert Matelski and @Jad Boudiab

I think there is a lot to unpack here. For starters, really appreciate the kind words Robert! 

I have to say thought, I think Jad brought up a great point:

"If we were to shift some of the neighborhood borders slightly, we would suddenly come up with different grades because one or two comps would have dropped or were added, making a big difference in a compact market."

The above quote by Jad essentially defines one of the fundamental problems that has plagued geo-statistics for decades. It's called the Modifiable areal unit problem. 

In short it has to do with how when one samples a geography and then resamples it after having redrawn the boundaries, the results have a tendency to change. 

Here is the wikipedia page for more information and better explanation: Modifiable areal unit problem

Robert, on your website you also touched on this phenomenon on your methodologies page under the header "Special Considerations for B & C Grade Neighborhoods". 

You wrote:

"It is important to note that even within a census tract there can be considerable variation that could skew the grade for the specific location of a property. For instance, if a census tract contains blocks of single family houses, but also a large number of senior citizen rental housing apartment communities, the parameters related to income and owner occupancy rate might score far lower than they would have if the senior citizen housing complexes were excluded, thus bringing down the overall grade for the area."

This issue will occur no matter what you do unfortunately. A few ideas I had to lessen the effect this phenomenon has are to use block level data or to utilize untabulated records about individual people or housing units that the American Community Survey collects.

The issues with both these approaches are that block data is only issued by the conventional census, which will reduce your temporal resolution from 1 year to 10. You can interpolate data from the ACS down to block level using geo-spatial algorithms, but I have found this method to be rather ineffective. Untabulated records that contain lat, long coordinates are only available to accredited research institutions. Individuals and companies can only use what is called Public Use Microdata Sample data. They anonymize the data by tabulating each record into a micro use area, which is larger than a Census tract, making this method redundant.  

That being said, we also have to define what we mean by "location grade". 

The way I have seen it and how I wrote my system, is that the location grade is really a kind of risk score. 

I like to use the analogy of it's like a FICO score to a lender, or Bond rating to a bond investor. 

The metrics that I have incorporated into my are as follows:

- Median Home Value

- Median Rent

- Median Household Income

- Poverty Rate

- SNAPS (Food Stamps) Rate

- College Graduation Rate

- Vacancy Rate

I have chosen these because I believe that these metrics give the best indication as to the "risks" an investor will face when selecting a location to allocate into. Risks such as non-payment, general vacancy, theft, drugs, vandalism, lease-up duration, as well as market risks such as price reductions or falling rents. 

If we only use comps to assess locations, then what do the grades represent? 

Admittedly, my scores are not always 100% on the dot either. I've been tinkering with the algorithm the past few months and found better results when I add the delta values for the metrics I am currently using to the algorithm.

As with building any model, iterating on the design and adding more data into the mix to better paint a picture of the world is key. 

@Jad Boudiab - Thanks for the explanation of your comps timing, that makes a significant difference, and thanks for humoring my feedback.

@Art Perkitny - Thanks for the thorough explanation on the modifiable areal unit problem... this is something I have sort of understood and have been long troubled by, but I never knew it actually had a name! Also thanks for listing out the metrics that you used in your own grading model... these aren't too far off from what I used in mine (albeit in a less sophisticated manner than you).

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