How to find out balance of 1st mortgage...?

16 Replies

Hey everyone,

I'm considering bidding on a foreclosure at an auction property- but it's a second mortgage, which means I would still need to pay off the 1st mortgage if I win. But... I can't seem to find out the balance on the 1st mortgage. I can see what it was 15 years ago (via public records) but this property has been in foreclosure for half of that time, so who knows what its at now.

When we called the bank to ask - the bank with the 1st lien position mortgage- they said they would not be able to reveal that info.

So... how do you experts do this?  There must be a way to figure this out! 

Thanks!

Not a direct answer....

...But the 2nd lien holder wouldn't have initiated proceedings if they thought they'd be underwater after the 1st was done being paid out.

So there is likely some meat on that bone. I have no idea how much. Hopefully others contribute insight into that question. 

Good luck!

Mahalo @Chris Mason ! That’s what I’m thinking too.. 

Some more details on the deal Brandon mentioned (I’m trying to help him get this one):

The bank, Nation Star/Mr. Cooper won’t give us the payoff unless the borrower gives them verbal or written permission to tell us, OR if we can provide the last four of the borrowers SSN. 

We know the original loan amount that was taken out in 2002, and IF the payoff is equal to or less than that amount we will be very happy! But if it’s much more than that we could be upside down. And I’ve seen a lot of foreclosures where the total owed can be twice as much as the outstanding principal amount, so it’s just too risky without knowing that payoff. 

Even the commissioner of the sale hasn’t been able to get the payoff (although I think he only mailed a letter to the borrower asking), we would have to make a non refundable 10% deposit in order for them to tell us. 

So we’re really hoping someone out there has a way to find the payoff amount! Thanks for your input! 

Originally posted by @Brandon Turner :

Hey everyone,

I'm considering bidding on a foreclosure at an auction property- but it's a second mortgage, which means I would still need to pay off the 1st mortgage if I win.  But... I can't seem to find out the balance on the 1st mortgage. I can see what it was 15 years ago (via public records) but this property has been in foreclosure for half of that time, so who knows what its at now. 

When we called the bank to ask - the bank with the 1st lien position mortgage- they said they would not be able to reveal that info. 

So... how do you experts do this?  There must be a way to figure this out! 

Thanks!

To get a ballpark figure, you can make some rough assumptions based on the following:

- is it the 1st or 2nd that has been in foreclosure half the past 15 years?  

- if the 1st has been as well, see when the Lis Pendens or Trustee appointment/transfer was  filed (Judicial or Non Judicial respectively, not sure what HI is) on the 1st.  This is commencement of the foreclosure process

- use an amortization table to this point, minus one year or more, to determine approx loan balance (UPB)

- assume payments have not been made on the 1st since then

- use the interest rate on the note and apply to the UPB til today's date to determine interest arrears owing

- assume property taxes haven't been paid by borrower and advanced by lender since default, this gets added to balance

- add in approx insurance coverage that the lender may have advanced (Forced Place Insurance), to this balance

- legal fees are the big unknown (and not sure they are recoverable in HI), but if there are a lot of filings then can assume fairly hefty amount, say $10K+.  Otherwise you may want to factor approx $5k. 

Add these all together and will give you a ballpark figure on the 1st's outstanding balance/payoff.  If there doesn't appear to be any foreclosure commenced then perhaps assume they stopped paying both at same time and use the 2nd's foreclosure start date. 

Would be glad to offer more insight if you want to reach out or send me more data.

@Chad Urbshott Thank you for that detailed explanation! 

We don't know when they stopped paying. What we know is that the first was taken out in 2002, then the heloc second in 2005. 

The first was sold/assigned from WA Mutual through FNMA to Nation Star in 2014. I purchased the docs that were recorded with the State, but we cannot find any indication of what the principal was at the time, and it won't even tell us the new loan number that Nation Star assigned to the loan. If we could find the balance at the time it was assigned, that'd be enough for us to make an educated guess. 

The first lien never filed foreclosure. The second lien filed foreclosure in 2016 (out here in the islands, the mainland banks can take 5, 10 and even 15 years to foreclose; we have heard through the coconut wireless that they basically never even paid towards the second lien). 

We're really hoping that they stayed pretty current on the first lien so that they could keep the property (it's an incredible property, and they renovated it very nicely). 

My last resort is to call the borrower and very nicely and respectfully ask if she'd help us. Of course that is a total hail mary! 

Originally posted by @Greg Gaudet :

@Chad Urbshott Thank you for that detailed explanation! 

We don't know when they stopped paying. What we know is that the first was taken out in 2002, then the heloc second in 2005. 

The first was sold/assigned from WA Mutual through FNMA to Nation Star in 2014. I purchased the docs that were recorded with the State, but we cannot find any indication of what the principal was at the time, and it won't even tell us the new loan number that Nation Star assigned to the loan. If we could find the balance at the time it was assigned, that'd be enough for us to make an educated guess. 

The first lien never filed foreclosure. The second lien filed foreclosure in 2016 (out here in the islands, the mainland banks can take 5, 10 and even 15 years to foreclose; we have heard through the coconut wireless that they basically never even paid towards the second lien). 

We're really hoping that they stayed pretty current on the first lien so that they could keep the property (it's an incredible property, and they renovated it very nicely). 

My last resort is to call the borrower and very nicely and respectfully ask if she'd help us. Of course that is a total hail mary! 

I'll refer this over to my esteemed colleague @Martin Saenz who is a 2nd's note buyer.  Martin, how would you guys determine what the balance on the 1st is in this case?  

Only the borrower and/or junior lien holder (or their designee) can make a demand request for the balance on the first. Law enforcement/courts may as well but outside of that, it's a crap shoot.

Most junior lien holders that initiate foreclosure, do it for one of two purposes. 1) because they have ran the numbers and know that if it reverts back to them, there is sufficient equity to pay off the first and then sell it on the open market to recover their expenditures. 2) (My favorite) is to catch unsuspecting bidders asleep at the wheel, that will bid, and then take them out (junior lien holder) and then be faced with the senior. Not sure i'd want to gamble that the junior thinks there is value sufficient to initiate foreclosure.

Thanks @Chad Urbshott .  Unknown 1st are very common in the 2nd space.  There are some strategies you can employ that I can't openly discuss in a forum but what I can say is:

- if the 2nd is foreclosing, then you may want to contact them ahead of the f/c and offer to buy the note.  With that, you can ask them questions regarding the 1st.

- Pull an O&E report and track the chain

- Do a tri merge soft pull and see what it yields

- You mentioned county records shows the original lender from 15 years ago.  Typically county records will show some assignments along the way.  Assume you have done an electronic search.  Have you called the county.  HI can be a very difficult state to deal with but you never know.

- Assume you checked RealtyTrac to see how they present transaction history

At the end of the day, connecting with the 2nd lien holder is your best play as most don't want the property back (i.e. they would prefer selling the note versus the chance of getting the property back).  We want loan modifications and long term stream of cash flow.

All the best!

Originally posted by @Martin Saenz :

Thanks @Chad Urbshott .  Unknown 1st are very common in the 2nd space.  There are some strategies you can employ that I can't openly discuss in a forum but what I can say is:

- if the 2nd is foreclosing, then you may want to contact them ahead of the f/c and offer to buy the note.  With that, you can ask them questions regarding the 1st.

- Pull an O&E report and track the chain

- Do a tri merge soft pull and see what it yields

- You mentioned county records shows the original lender from 15 years ago.  Typically county records will show some assignments along the way.  Assume you have done an electronic search.  Have you called the county.  HI can be a very difficult state to deal with but you never know.

- Assume you checked RealtyTrac to see how they present transaction history

At the end of the day, connecting with the 2nd lien holder is your best play as most don't want the property back (i.e. they would prefer selling the note versus the chance of getting the property back).  We want loan modifications and long term stream of cash flow.

All the best!

  • There is so much more to know about the poster and the two lenders before you can opine on what the steps are for him to procure this property. Is he experienced in buying notes? Is the 2nd owned by a GSE and only serviced by the foreclosing entity?
  • No bank that wants to stay in business, is going to sell a note to an individual mom and pop investor. Not in 2019. Yeah, I know, people do it. People know people that do it. if it's some single branch bank/servicer/institution, ok, yeah maybe but doubtful. Even on the outside chance you get them to talk to you, unless they also have the first to service (doubtful), they know nothing more than the payoff. Maybe that's all you want to know? I suppose once you submit your "note buyer vendor package" to them, showing you are qualified to purchase notes, have the financial wherewithal (your financial spreads), have the capital, have the policies and procedures in place, and the experience to manage NPPI data, maybe they will talk to you. Maybe Trump will be nice to Pelosi one day too.

  • Unless you are a creditor, you can't "pull a trimerge soft pull". If you are a creditor, you can't pull a trimerge soft pull anyway for that purpose. I'm not even sure you can pull a trimerge "Softpull". Every creditor has an agreement with the CDIA to pull credit under very specific permissible use rules and regulations. This scenario would not be under any permissible use.

I know, you probably do this all day, every day, and do it just like you stated in your post but, If you are employed or own a company engaged in doing this, that's so completely different than some guy off the street that wants to buy a property for themselves or their growing portfolio. Maybe he's a seasoned, and experienced note buyer like you but, i'm guessing from his post, when he called and they said they can't talk to him, that he isn't.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I'm not trying to say your plan doesn't work but I am trying to say your profession and his profession are not aligned (according to the OP's post) so, what you do to buy notes isn't going to work for him. Not unless you are doing it for him and charging a fee to do it. Possible? Ok. Probable? I doubt it. You have at least 27 other people that bought your book and raved about it, that will say I'm wrong but as a lender and a servicer, that has sold, and still does sell notes, for the last 25 years, I wouldn't dare sell a note to this guy if he's not a well established, well documented, well vetted note purchaser. Neither would any other lender/servicer of any size. Maybe that's the trick, buying notes from very small institutions but still, if that's the case, there are way too many variables to say this tactic has any chance of working. Maybe the OP is everything i'm assuming he's not and if that's the case, I support your opinion to him 100%.

Originally posted by @Ron S. :
Originally posted by @Martin Saenz:

Thanks @Chad Urbshott .  Unknown 1st are very common in the 2nd space.  There are some strategies you can employ that I can't openly discuss in a forum but what I can say is:

- if the 2nd is foreclosing, then you may want to contact them ahead of the f/c and offer to buy the note.  With that, you can ask them questions regarding the 1st.

- Pull an O&E report and track the chain

- Do a tri merge soft pull and see what it yields

- You mentioned county records shows the original lender from 15 years ago.  Typically county records will show some assignments along the way.  Assume you have done an electronic search.  Have you called the county.  HI can be a very difficult state to deal with but you never know.

- Assume you checked RealtyTrac to see how they present transaction history

At the end of the day, connecting with the 2nd lien holder is your best play as most don't want the property back (i.e. they would prefer selling the note versus the chance of getting the property back).  We want loan modifications and long term stream of cash flow.

All the best!

  • There is so much more to know about the poster and the two lenders before you can opine on what the steps are for him to procure this property. Is he experienced in buying notes? Is the 2nd owned by a GSE and only serviced by the foreclosing entity?
  • No bank that wants to stay in business, is going to sell a note to an individual mom and pop investor. Not in 2019. Yeah, I know, people do it. People know people that do it. if it's some single branch bank/servicer/institution, ok, yeah maybe but doubtful. Even on the outside chance you get them to talk to you, unless they also have the first to service (doubtful), they know nothing more than the payoff. Maybe that's all you want to know? I suppose once you submit your "note buyer vendor package" to them, showing you are qualified to purchase notes, have the financial wherewithal (your financial spreads), have the capital, have the policies and procedures in place, and the experience to manage NPPI data, maybe they will talk to you. Maybe Trump will be nice to Pelosi one day too.
  • Unless you are a creditor, you can't "pull a trimerge soft pull". If you are a creditor, you can't pull a trimerge soft pull anyway for that purpose. I'm not even sure you can pull a trimerge "Softpull". Every creditor has an agreement with the CDIA to pull credit under very specific permissible use rules and regulations. This scenario would not be under any permissible use.

I know, you probably do this all day, every day, and do it just like you stated in your post but, If you are employed or own a company engaged in doing this, that's so completely different than some guy off the street that wants to buy a property for themselves or their growing portfolio. Maybe he's a seasoned, and experienced note buyer like you but, i'm guessing from his post, when he called and they said they can't talk to him, that he isn't.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I'm not trying to say your plan doesn't work but I am trying to say your profession and his profession are not aligned (according to the OP's post) so, what you do to buy notes isn't going to work for him. Not unless you are doing it for him and charging a fee to do it. Possible? Ok. Probable? I doubt it. You have at least 27 other people that bought your book and raved about it, that will say I'm wrong but as a lender and a servicer, that has sold, and still does sell notes, for the last 25 years, I wouldn't dare sell a note to this guy if he's not a well established, well documented, well vetted note purchaser. Neither would any other lender/servicer of any size. Maybe that's the trick, buying notes from very small institutions but still, if that's the case, there are way too many variables to say this tactic has any chance of working. Maybe the OP is everything i'm assuming he's not and if that's the case, I support your opinion to him 100%.

Thanks for your thoughts, Ron. Appreciate your insight.Credco does have options for pulling from all 3 bureaus in the form of a soft pull. I agree that an investor seeking to pick up a property through a 2nd mortgage foreclosure sale won't have all the tricks so to speak. Perhaps from a real estate investor perspective, they may want to pick up tools that note investors use to help them gain more insight into the properties and borrowers they're engaged with. I was provided the name of the person associated with the property and was able to find them on PACER and through other legal means. Finding borrowers can lead to finding creditors in some cases. At the end of the day, what is needed is a payoff from the 1st or at least the balance as a bare minimum, whether the note holder will deal with you or not. In terms of my books, I simply wrote those from the heart and from my experiences. That’s not to say, someone like yourself has your own set of experiences. I’m not the richest guy or the most successful note investor, but I’ve provided for my family as a full time note investor the past 6 years.

Originally posted by @Martin Saenz :
Originally posted by @Ron S.:
Originally posted by @Martin Saenz:

Thanks @Chad Urbshott .  Unknown 1st are very common in the 2nd space.  There are some strategies you can employ that I can't openly discuss in a forum but what I can say is:

- if the 2nd is foreclosing, then you may want to contact them ahead of the f/c and offer to buy the note.  With that, you can ask them questions regarding the 1st.

- Pull an O&E report and track the chain

- Do a tri merge soft pull and see what it yields

- You mentioned county records shows the original lender from 15 years ago.  Typically county records will show some assignments along the way.  Assume you have done an electronic search.  Have you called the county.  HI can be a very difficult state to deal with but you never know.

- Assume you checked RealtyTrac to see how they present transaction history

At the end of the day, connecting with the 2nd lien holder is your best play as most don't want the property back (i.e. they would prefer selling the note versus the chance of getting the property back).  We want loan modifications and long term stream of cash flow.

All the best!

  • There is so much more to know about the poster and the two lenders before you can opine on what the steps are for him to procure this property. Is he experienced in buying notes? Is the 2nd owned by a GSE and only serviced by the foreclosing entity?
  • No bank that wants to stay in business, is going to sell a note to an individual mom and pop investor. Not in 2019. Yeah, I know, people do it. People know people that do it. if it's some single branch bank/servicer/institution, ok, yeah maybe but doubtful. Even on the outside chance you get them to talk to you, unless they also have the first to service (doubtful), they know nothing more than the payoff. Maybe that's all you want to know? I suppose once you submit your "note buyer vendor package" to them, showing you are qualified to purchase notes, have the financial wherewithal (your financial spreads), have the capital, have the policies and procedures in place, and the experience to manage NPPI data, maybe they will talk to you. Maybe Trump will be nice to Pelosi one day too.
  • Unless you are a creditor, you can't "pull a trimerge soft pull". If you are a creditor, you can't pull a trimerge soft pull anyway for that purpose. I'm not even sure you can pull a trimerge "Softpull". Every creditor has an agreement with the CDIA to pull credit under very specific permissible use rules and regulations. This scenario would not be under any permissible use.

I know, you probably do this all day, every day, and do it just like you stated in your post but, If you are employed or own a company engaged in doing this, that's so completely different than some guy off the street that wants to buy a property for themselves or their growing portfolio. Maybe he's a seasoned, and experienced note buyer like you but, i'm guessing from his post, when he called and they said they can't talk to him, that he isn't.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I'm not trying to say your plan doesn't work but I am trying to say your profession and his profession are not aligned (according to the OP's post) so, what you do to buy notes isn't going to work for him. Not unless you are doing it for him and charging a fee to do it. Possible? Ok. Probable? I doubt it. You have at least 27 other people that bought your book and raved about it, that will say I'm wrong but as a lender and a servicer, that has sold, and still does sell notes, for the last 25 years, I wouldn't dare sell a note to this guy if he's not a well established, well documented, well vetted note purchaser. Neither would any other lender/servicer of any size. Maybe that's the trick, buying notes from very small institutions but still, if that's the case, there are way too many variables to say this tactic has any chance of working. Maybe the OP is everything i'm assuming he's not and if that's the case, I support your opinion to him 100%.

Thanks for your thoughts, Ron. Appreciate your insight.Credco does have options for pulling from all 3 bureaus in the form of a soft pull. I agree that an investor seeking to pick up a property through a 2nd mortgage foreclosure sale won’t have all the tricks so to speak. Perhaps from a real estate investor perspective, they may want to pick up tools that note investors use to help them gain more insight into the properties and borrowers they’re engaged with. I was provided the name of the person associated with the property and was able to find them on PACER and through other legal means. Finding borrowers can lead to finding creditors in some cases. At the end of the day, what is needed is a payoff from the 1st or at least the balance as a bare minimum, whether the note holder will deal with you or not. In terms of my books, I simply wrote those from the heart and from my experiences. That’s not to say, someone like yourself has your own set of experiences. I’m not the richest guy or the most successful note investor, but I’ve provided for my family as a full time note investor the past 6 years.

 I called our CoreLogic rep and asked about the Credco "Softpull" product. Ok...it exists. That said, and as I mentioned, it's not available to anyone not, "in" the industry. I pulled this disclaimer below. Again, it would appear the OP would not have access to this product, unless maybe he was offering the borrower a job or something else from below?

What does "permissible purpose" mean?

The Fair Credit Reporting Act("FCRA") is the federal law that regulates the credit reporting industry. The FCRA determines when a credit report can be obtained and grants credit report access to companies which have a "permissible purpose."

The FCRA specifies those purposes as the granting of credit, the collection of a debt, the underwriting of insurance, employment purposes, for issuing a license as required by some government agencies or for a legitimate business transaction between a business and a consumer. Obtaining a credit report under false pretenses, or improper use of a credit report is a violation of federal law.

Originally posted by @Ron S. :
Originally posted by @Martin Saenz:
Originally posted by @Ron S.:
Originally posted by @Martin Saenz:

Thanks @Chad Urbshott .  Unknown 1st are very common in the 2nd space.  There are some strategies you can employ that I can't openly discuss in a forum but what I can say is:

- if the 2nd is foreclosing, then you may want to contact them ahead of the f/c and offer to buy the note.  With that, you can ask them questions regarding the 1st.

- Pull an O&E report and track the chain

- Do a tri merge soft pull and see what it yields

- You mentioned county records shows the original lender from 15 years ago.  Typically county records will show some assignments along the way.  Assume you have done an electronic search.  Have you called the county.  HI can be a very difficult state to deal with but you never know.

- Assume you checked RealtyTrac to see how they present transaction history

At the end of the day, connecting with the 2nd lien holder is your best play as most don't want the property back (i.e. they would prefer selling the note versus the chance of getting the property back).  We want loan modifications and long term stream of cash flow.

All the best!

  • There is so much more to know about the poster and the two lenders before you can opine on what the steps are for him to procure this property. Is he experienced in buying notes? Is the 2nd owned by a GSE and only serviced by the foreclosing entity?
  • No bank that wants to stay in business, is going to sell a note to an individual mom and pop investor. Not in 2019. Yeah, I know, people do it. People know people that do it. if it's some single branch bank/servicer/institution, ok, yeah maybe but doubtful. Even on the outside chance you get them to talk to you, unless they also have the first to service (doubtful), they know nothing more than the payoff. Maybe that's all you want to know? I suppose once you submit your "note buyer vendor package" to them, showing you are qualified to purchase notes, have the financial wherewithal (your financial spreads), have the capital, have the policies and procedures in place, and the experience to manage NPPI data, maybe they will talk to you. Maybe Trump will be nice to Pelosi one day too.
  • Unless you are a creditor, you can't "pull a trimerge soft pull". If you are a creditor, you can't pull a trimerge soft pull anyway for that purpose. I'm not even sure you can pull a trimerge "Softpull". Every creditor has an agreement with the CDIA to pull credit under very specific permissible use rules and regulations. This scenario would not be under any permissible use.

I know, you probably do this all day, every day, and do it just like you stated in your post but, If you are employed or own a company engaged in doing this, that's so completely different than some guy off the street that wants to buy a property for themselves or their growing portfolio. Maybe he's a seasoned, and experienced note buyer like you but, i'm guessing from his post, when he called and they said they can't talk to him, that he isn't.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I'm not trying to say your plan doesn't work but I am trying to say your profession and his profession are not aligned (according to the OP's post) so, what you do to buy notes isn't going to work for him. Not unless you are doing it for him and charging a fee to do it. Possible? Ok. Probable? I doubt it. You have at least 27 other people that bought your book and raved about it, that will say I'm wrong but as a lender and a servicer, that has sold, and still does sell notes, for the last 25 years, I wouldn't dare sell a note to this guy if he's not a well established, well documented, well vetted note purchaser. Neither would any other lender/servicer of any size. Maybe that's the trick, buying notes from very small institutions but still, if that's the case, there are way too many variables to say this tactic has any chance of working. Maybe the OP is everything i'm assuming he's not and if that's the case, I support your opinion to him 100%.

Thanks for your thoughts, Ron. Appreciate your insight.Credco does have options for pulling from all 3 bureaus in the form of a soft pull. I agree that an investor seeking to pick up a property through a 2nd mortgage foreclosure sale won’t have all the tricks so to speak. Perhaps from a real estate investor perspective, they may want to pick up tools that note investors use to help them gain more insight into the properties and borrowers they’re engaged with. I was provided the name of the person associated with the property and was able to find them on PACER and through other legal means. Finding borrowers can lead to finding creditors in some cases. At the end of the day, what is needed is a payoff from the 1st or at least the balance as a bare minimum, whether the note holder will deal with you or not. In terms of my books, I simply wrote those from the heart and from my experiences. That’s not to say, someone like yourself has your own set of experiences. I’m not the richest guy or the most successful note investor, but I’ve provided for my family as a full time note investor the past 6 years.

 I called our CoreLogic rep and asked about the Credco "Softpull" product. Ok...it exists. That said, and as I mentioned, it's not available to anyone not, "in" the industry. I pulled this disclaimer below. Again, it would appear the OP would not have access to this product, unless maybe he was offering the borrower a job or something else from below?

What does "permissible purpose" mean?

The Fair Credit Reporting Act("FCRA") is the federal law that regulates the credit reporting industry. The FCRA determines when a credit report can be obtained and grants credit report access to companies which have a "permissible purpose."

The FCRA specifies those purposes as the granting of credit, the collection of a debt, the underwriting of insurance, employment purposes, for issuing a license as required by some government agencies or for a legitimate business transaction between a business and a consumer. Obtaining a credit report under false pretenses, or improper use of a credit report is a violation of federal law.

 Ron, if you have ever dealt with Credco over the years, you would understand they are a massive organization with numerous programs in place.  Not sure why you are going down such a road on the credit pulling question, however the name of the plan is Portfolio Credit Review which is an addendum to agreement for service.  I'd be happy to share the agreement with you off line as a benefit to you but I'm done here with any back and forth.  Best to you!

Originally posted by @Alex Morstadt :

I think the best thing to do is call the borrower and ask - you may be able to come up with a pre-foreclosure deal which benefits all parties. 

You never know. 

Update: 

I got the payoff! And it was right at the cutoff of what we wanted it to be. We bid at the auction yesterday and won the sale. It's a fully renovated 800-850k vacation rental condo in a high end beach resort and we got it for 645k. 

Should work out well, we don't need to do anything to it, so once we close we'll just throw it up on the MLS the next day. This building is highly desirable and rarely has listings, they sell in a matter of days. Nothing on the market now. So I think we'll do well. Thank you everyone for your help! Especially @Martin Saenz

We might even just sell the contract (since we have until October to close and it's financeable). Then another flipper can make an easy 100k and we can make a quick return without even putting anymore time or money in. 

 

Originally posted by @Greg Gaudet
Update: 

I got the payoff! And it was right at the cutoff of what we wanted it to be. We bid at the auction yesterday and won the sale. It's a fully renovated 800-850k vacation rental condo in a high end beach resort and we got it for 645k. 

Should work out well, we don't need to do anything to it, so once we close we'll just throw it up on the MLS the next day. This building is highly desirable and rarely has listings, they sell in a matter of days. Nothing on the market now. So I think we'll do well. Thank you everyone for your help! Especially @Martin Saenz

We might even just sell the contract (since we have until October to close and it's financeable). Then another flipper can make an easy 100k and we can make a quick return without even putting anymore time or money in. 

Congrats! That looks like a great deal. So I'm assuming the $645K is what you paid at auction plus the payoff to the 1st mortgage? You should check with the HOA on any outstanding dues as well.

May I ask how you obtained the payoff?  

Mahalo Chad! Yeah I don't think it's a homerun, but I think we'll make 90k with a -34 month turn around and a solid base hit. 

645k is the total including payoff. Our bid was 379k, the payoff is 265k. Regarding the HOAs, we always assume 6 months worth of HOAs. In HI we have a law that limits the HOA to collecting 6 months worth of HOA fees in a sheriff's sale.

I finally ended up going for the hail mary - I called the borrower up and asked her for help. Turns out she's a super nice lady and used to work in escrow, so I think that helped her to separate the emotion and understand the other side of the situation. 

If you're curious to see, I posted the unit in the market place. Since our auctions have about a 3 month closing, and we have not assigned a buyer's name yet, we're considering wholesaling this one for a quicker cash out. Also because we've spent 2 months working on it already and I'd rather pull out a quick profit and move on the next few flips we're working on. Anyway here's the ad with pics of the unit:  

https://www.biggerpockets.com/…

Thanks for the help everyone!