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Nana Sefa
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Owner’s title insurance - to get or not?

Nana Sefa
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Posted Jan 3 2024, 13:02

Which of you get owner’s title insurance? And who doesn’t get owner’s title? Why do you get or not get? Thank you. 

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Tom Gimer
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 06:50

@Jay Hinrichs @Peter Walther You two should pull some Maryland ground leases from the 1800s and get back to me about how much you love the handwriting. It can be guesswork.

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Peter Walther
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Peter Walther
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 07:08
Quote from @Tom Gimer:

@Jay Hinrichs @Peter Walther You two should pull some Maryland ground leases from the 1800s and get back to me about how much you love the handwriting. It can be guesswork.


 Goes to my point of writing with a flourish.

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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 07:21
Quote from @Tom Gimer:

@Jay Hinrichs @Peter Walther You two should pull some Maryland ground leases from the 1800s and get back to me about how much you love the handwriting. It can be guesswork.


I know i get those bills in the mail.. I only thought Hawaii had ground leases .. so much to learn as we go state to state..

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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 07:24
Quote from @Tom Gimer:

@Jay Hinrichs @Peter Walther You two should pull some Maryland ground leases from the 1800s and get back to me about how much you love the handwriting. It can be guesswork.


My Dads RE attorney in the late 60s when I was contemplating getting into RE when i was old enough he said learn the court house that's where the money is made..  IE foreclosures  shadow plats  probates BKs etc etc.. So that's what I started with going in and sitting down and going through the big books its  walk back in time and history very interesting if nothing else.

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Peter Stewart
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Peter Stewart
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 07:35

ALWAYS GET AN OWNERS TITLE INSURANCE POLICY! 

If a title issue arises, it can be very costly to address. The title policy is not that expensive in the grand scheme of things. And, depending on what state you are in, it's typically standard for the seller to pay this fee anyways, so it's essentially "free" for the buyer. 

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Replied Jan 9 2024, 07:38
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:

@Jay Hinrichs @Peter Walther You two should pull some Maryland ground leases from the 1800s and get back to me about how much you love the handwriting. It can be guesswork.


I know i get those bills in the mail.. I only thought Hawaii had ground leases .. so much to learn as we go state to state..

 sorry what's ground lease ? do you mean leasehold rather than fee simple ownership ?

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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 07:42
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:

@Jay Hinrichs @Peter Walther You two should pull some Maryland ground leases from the 1800s and get back to me about how much you love the handwriting. It can be guesswork.


I know i get those bills in the mail.. I only thought Hawaii had ground leases .. so much to learn as we go state to state..

 sorry what's ground lease ? do you mean leasehold rather than fee simple ownership ?


I am not an expert on it but from what I have seen in Balt City a certain amount of SFR's have ground leases. IF Tom has time he can explain in detail :)

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Tom Gimer
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 08:55

@Carlos Ptriawan @Jay Hinrichs Residential ground leases in Maryland (Baltimore City mainly but also surrounding counties) are typically 99-year leases renewable in perpetuity, meaning as long as the rent continues to be paid the lease is automatically renewed for 99 more.

No pay or slow pay and you can loose your leasehold property.

You can "redeem" the ground (well except for "irredeemable" ground rents, but those are quite rare and another story) by buying out the owner of the fee simple interest a cap rate formula based upon the date the original lease was created. So to buy out an $84 annual lease created in 1900 you would divide the rent by 0.06 = $1400. A ground rent redemption deed is executed and recorded, extinguishing the ground rent and making the land fee simple... the fee and leasehold interests having been "merged".

There is an entire industry surrounding ground rents: buying/selling (often in bulk), servicing, collecting, ejectment actions for non-payment, GRR deed prep, etc. There are actually 2 chains of title on leasehold properties... one for the leasehold interest (transferred by assignment) and one for the fee (transferred by deed).

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Steve K.
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Steve K.
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Replied Jan 9 2024, 10:32

Yes I always get owner's title insurance. Seller typically is willing to pay for it in my area and our contract has a provision for Owner's Extended Coverage which I also always get. This insures over the standard exceptions which relate to parties in possession, unrecorded easements, survey matters, unrecorded mechanics’ liens, gap period (period between the effective date and time of commitment to the date and time the deed is recorded) and unpaid taxes, assessments and unredeemed tax sales prior to the year of closing. It's like $80 more and I usually write in the contract that buyer and seller will split it 50/50. Money well spent IMO. 

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Peter Walther
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Peter Walther
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Replied Jan 10 2024, 07:44
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:

@Jay Hinrichs @Peter Walther You two should pull some Maryland ground leases from the 1800s and get back to me about how much you love the handwriting. It can be guesswork.


I know i get those bills in the mail.. I only thought Hawaii had ground leases .. so much to learn as we go state to state..

 sorry what's ground lease ? do you mean leasehold rather than fee simple ownership ?


Ground lease condos were somewhat popular in Florida in the early days.  It allowed a developer to sell units at a cheaper price because he kept the underlying dirt and often the buyers didn't realize the building didn't sit on land that was a common element.  Frequently the developer also owned the amenities and leased them back to the association.

What Is a Ground Lease? How It Works, Advantages, and Example (investopedia.com)

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Joshua Christensen
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Joshua Christensen
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Replied Jan 10 2024, 09:05
Quote from @Nana Sefa:

Which of you get owner’s title insurance? And who doesn’t get owner’s title? Why do you get or not get? Thank you. 


I always get Title Insurance because you have no idea what issues exist before your ownership tenure.  We always ask the seller to provide it in the deal so we're not paying for it ourselves.  They shouldn't have a problem insuring a clean marketable title.  

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Guy Gimenez
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Guy Gimenez
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Replied Jan 10 2024, 16:48

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.

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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
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Replied Jan 10 2024, 18:21
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I have only had to have an attorney involved on one title claim out of about 10 over the last 4 decades and it was this year in Balt city. closing attorney missed a BK filing ( failed to do a date down it appears) at first the underwriter was going to not pay it thats when i went to the attorney we got paid out on the policy but no reimburse for my legal to force them to do it. And it was a low value asset some where in the 40k range.  had one last year in KC  and forged deeds .. so owner stole the property then sold to us ( wholesaler hate those guys LOL) Anyway they paid right up but we lost our assingment fee as thats not covered in title insurance..

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Peter Walther
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Peter Walther
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Replied Jan 10 2024, 18:39
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.

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Peter Walther
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Peter Walther
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Replied Jan 10 2024, 18:42
Quote from @Account Closed:
Quote from @Tom Gimer:

@Carlos Ptriawan @Jay Hinrichs Residential ground leases in Maryland (Baltimore City mainly but also surrounding counties) are typically 99-year leases renewable in perpetuity, meaning as long as the rent continues to be paid the lease is automatically renewed for 99 more.

No pay or slow pay and you can loose your leasehold property.

You can "redeem" the ground (well except for "irredeemable" ground rents, but those are quite rare and another story) by buying out the owner of the fee simple interest a cap rate formula based upon the date the original lease was created. So to buy out an $84 annual lease created in 1900 you would divide the rent by 0.06 = $1400. A ground rent redemption deed is executed and recorded, extinguishing the ground rent and making the land fee simple... the fee and leasehold interests having been "merged".

There is an entire industry surrounding ground rents: buying/selling (often in bulk), servicing, collecting, ejectment actions for non-payment, GRR deed prep, etc. There are actually 2 chains of title on leasehold properties... one for the leasehold interest (transferred by assignment) and one for the fee (transferred by deed).

Do Residential ground leases have mineral rights? 

 Unless the mineral rights were previously conveyed, they generally remain with the lessor.

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Guy Gimenez
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Guy Gimenez
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Replied Jan 10 2024, 19:30
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.


 It's not a personal attack...please don't take it as such. Having two insurers refuse to pay as stipulated in my policy may seem limited to you...it's very real to me. I have a good friend (attorney) who spent a good portion of his career suing insurers who refused to abide by their policies. Oddly enough, he never lacked for work. 

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Dave Skow
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Dave Skow
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Replied Jan 11 2024, 17:14

@Nana Sefa- if you are  using a loan to buy - you are  required to obtain title insurance ....if you are  buying with cash - I would still recommend  paying for this as it  will help protect you in the future if there happens to be any issues on the title of the proeprty

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Peter Walther
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Peter Walther
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Replied Jan 12 2024, 05:12
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.


 It's not a personal attack...please don't take it as such. Having two insurers refuse to pay as stipulated in my policy may seem limited to you...it's very real to me. I have a good friend (attorney) who spent a good portion of his career suing insurers who refused to abide by their policies. Oddly enough, he never lacked for work. 


I didn't take it as a personal attack, I took it as an unfounded attack on all claims handlers who do their job every day in good faith and try had to provide the insured the benefits they are due.  I frequently had to explain to insureds, and their attorney's, why their claim wasn't covered under the policy, and rarely did they respond "oh, I'm sorry I was just trying to get something I wasn't entitled to."

I'm not claiming there aren't mistakes made in claims handling or incompetent or lazy claims handlers, just that there are lazy and incompetent attorneys representing insureds, but most aren't.

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Guy Gimenez
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Guy Gimenez
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Replied Jan 12 2024, 07:14
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.


 It's not a personal attack...please don't take it as such. Having two insurers refuse to pay as stipulated in my policy may seem limited to you...it's very real to me. I have a good friend (attorney) who spent a good portion of his career suing insurers who refused to abide by their policies. Oddly enough, he never lacked for work. 


I didn't take it as a personal attack, I took it as an unfounded attack on all claims handlers who do their job every day in good faith and try had to provide the insured the benefits they are due.  I frequently had to explain to insureds, and their attorney's, why their claim wasn't covered under the policy, and rarely did they respond "oh, I'm sorry I was just trying to get something I wasn't entitled to."

I'm not claiming there aren't mistakes made in claims handling or incompetent or lazy claims handlers, just that there are lazy and incompetent attorneys representing insureds, but most aren't.

An attack? If you don't believe insurance claims are slow walked at times, you've been in the insurance industry too long. There was NEVER any doubt, not even by the insurers in my case, that they were responsible, otherwise they certainly would not have paid out on the claims. They simply made a business decision to force me to take action to get what I paid for. If stating a fact is an attack, you indeed did take it personally. 

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Replied Jan 12 2024, 07:18
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.


 It's not a personal attack...please don't take it as such. Having two insurers refuse to pay as stipulated in my policy may seem limited to you...it's very real to me. I have a good friend (attorney) who spent a good portion of his career suing insurers who refused to abide by their policies. Oddly enough, he never lacked for work. 


I didn't take it as a personal attack, I took it as an unfounded attack on all claims handlers who do their job every day in good faith and try had to provide the insured the benefits they are due.  I frequently had to explain to insureds, and their attorney's, why their claim wasn't covered under the policy, and rarely did they respond "oh, I'm sorry I was just trying to get something I wasn't entitled to."

I'm not claiming there aren't mistakes made in claims handling or incompetent or lazy claims handlers, just that there are lazy and incompetent attorneys representing insureds, but most aren't.


An attack? If you don't believe insurers don't believe insurance claims aren't slow walked, you've been in the insurance industry too long. There was NEVER any doubt, not even by the insurers in my case, that they were responsible. The simply made a business decision to force me to take action to get what I paid for. If stating a fact is an attack, you indeed did take it personally. 


Title insurance company is hard to lose money though, there's cap of dollar amount that can be claimed. So say max cap for the title insurance is $10,000 ; while owner purchase it for 2k. Then lets say there's only 1 title issue out of 500 being issued. This is great business.

This thread is good though, because all Title master is willing to give answer for the question with lot of details ! so I appreciate their effort.

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Guy Gimenez
  • Investor
  • Corpus Christi, TX
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Guy Gimenez
  • Investor
  • Corpus Christi, TX
Replied Jan 12 2024, 07:22
Quote from @Carlos Ptriawan:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.


 It's not a personal attack...please don't take it as such. Having two insurers refuse to pay as stipulated in my policy may seem limited to you...it's very real to me. I have a good friend (attorney) who spent a good portion of his career suing insurers who refused to abide by their policies. Oddly enough, he never lacked for work. 


I didn't take it as a personal attack, I took it as an unfounded attack on all claims handlers who do their job every day in good faith and try had to provide the insured the benefits they are due.  I frequently had to explain to insureds, and their attorney's, why their claim wasn't covered under the policy, and rarely did they respond "oh, I'm sorry I was just trying to get something I wasn't entitled to."

I'm not claiming there aren't mistakes made in claims handling or incompetent or lazy claims handlers, just that there are lazy and incompetent attorneys representing insureds, but most aren't.


An attack? If you don't believe insurers don't believe insurance claims aren't slow walked, you've been in the insurance industry too long. There was NEVER any doubt, not even by the insurers in my case, that they were responsible. The simply made a business decision to force me to take action to get what I paid for. If stating a fact is an attack, you indeed did take it personally. 


Title insurance company is hard to lose money though, there's cap of dollar amount that can be claimed. So say max cap for the title insurance is $10,000 ; while owner purchase it for 2k. Then lets say there's only 1 title issue out of 500 being issued. This is great business.

This thread is good though, because all Title master is willing to give answer for the question with lot of details ! so I appreciate their effort.


 There are literally title insurers on ever corner in Texas. Why? Because the claims (both number and the amounts paid out) is minimal and we have one of the highest costs for title insurance in the U.S. Business is apparently very good. 

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Peter Walther
  • Specialist
  • Winter Springs, FL
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Peter Walther
  • Specialist
  • Winter Springs, FL
Replied Jan 12 2024, 08:38
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.


 It's not a personal attack...please don't take it as such. Having two insurers refuse to pay as stipulated in my policy may seem limited to you...it's very real to me. I have a good friend (attorney) who spent a good portion of his career suing insurers who refused to abide by their policies. Oddly enough, he never lacked for work. 


I didn't take it as a personal attack, I took it as an unfounded attack on all claims handlers who do their job every day in good faith and try had to provide the insured the benefits they are due.  I frequently had to explain to insureds, and their attorney's, why their claim wasn't covered under the policy, and rarely did they respond "oh, I'm sorry I was just trying to get something I wasn't entitled to."

I'm not claiming there aren't mistakes made in claims handling or incompetent or lazy claims handlers, just that there are lazy and incompetent attorneys representing insureds, but most aren't.

An attack? If you don't believe insurance claims are slow walked at times, you've been in the insurance industry too long. There was NEVER any doubt, not even by the insurers in my case, that they were responsible, otherwise they certainly would not have paid out on the claims. They simply made a business decision to force me to take action to get what I paid for. If stating a fact is an attack, you indeed did take it personally. 


It appears you missed my point.  Your apparently bad experience does not match up with my knowledge of the handling of thousands of claims which for the most part were handled appropriately.  Your comment that an insured will probably need an attorney is really off the mark in my opinion.

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Guy Gimenez
  • Investor
  • Corpus Christi, TX
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Guy Gimenez
  • Investor
  • Corpus Christi, TX
Replied Jan 12 2024, 08:57
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:
Quote from @Peter Walther:
Quote from @Guy Gimenez:

I "almost" always get title insurance but I only purchase in Texas where title insurance is costly. Anything purchased for less than $5K I may not get T/I. I just had my first ever title claim. Underwriter's counsel took two months to confirm they were responsible for the claim even though is was clear they missed a $14,500 RTO (rent to own HVAC) lien that was filed in the public records at 4:30pm the day prior to my closing. Insurer's counsel negotiated the payoff down to $4K and then sent me an absurd set of documents to sign and refused to provide me a Bill of Sale and release of the UCC Financing Statement lien. Insurer's counsel was not acting in good faith as required by statute. After going back and forth over a couple of weeks, I finally had to hire an attorney who spoke directly to the RTO company, sent them the $4K on my behalf and I received both the release of lien and bill of sale via mail a few days later. My attorney then contacted the insurer's counsel for reimbursement and he refused to return emails or calls. I guess he knew my attorney solved the problem he refused to solve so why not wash his hands of the matter. I advised my title company I was filing a complaint with the Texas Dept. of Insurance and I then did a video (I have a good following on social media) explaining to my followers that I would be doing a subsequent video about the insurer's refusal to be accountable. Apparently the right person saw my post and within 24 hours my attorney received an email from the insurer's counsel say he would send a check immediately. So, the moral of the story is title insurance is valuable, but like any insurer, you'll likely need to hire your own attorney to get them to pay out on a covered claim. Don't expect title insurers to do the right thing unless you force them to do so. //// On a side note, I also sued Farmer's Insurance over a car accident when they refused to pay out over my uninsured/underinsured coverage. Took 7 years but Farmer's finally paid out the full policy amount. Yes, it seems there's a pattern here with insurers.


I'm sorry you had a difficult time with the one title claim you had to file but please don't paint with such a broad brush with such a limited experience.  I don't know any of the facts of your claim which might give some justification to the delay but even if there is none, that doesn't mean there is a pattern with insurers.  I've had insured's sing my praises to the high heavens because I was able to resolve their issue quickly.


 It's not a personal attack...please don't take it as such. Having two insurers refuse to pay as stipulated in my policy may seem limited to you...it's very real to me. I have a good friend (attorney) who spent a good portion of his career suing insurers who refused to abide by their policies. Oddly enough, he never lacked for work. 


I didn't take it as a personal attack, I took it as an unfounded attack on all claims handlers who do their job every day in good faith and try had to provide the insured the benefits they are due.  I frequently had to explain to insureds, and their attorney's, why their claim wasn't covered under the policy, and rarely did they respond "oh, I'm sorry I was just trying to get something I wasn't entitled to."

I'm not claiming there aren't mistakes made in claims handling or incompetent or lazy claims handlers, just that there are lazy and incompetent attorneys representing insureds, but most aren't.

An attack? If you don't believe insurance claims are slow walked at times, you've been in the insurance industry too long. There was NEVER any doubt, not even by the insurers in my case, that they were responsible, otherwise they certainly would not have paid out on the claims. They simply made a business decision to force me to take action to get what I paid for. If stating a fact is an attack, you indeed did take it personally. 


It appears you missed my point.  Your apparently bad experience does not match up with my knowledge of the handling of thousands of claims which for the most part were handled appropriately.  Your comment that an insured will probably need an attorney is really off the mark in my opinion.

I didn't miss your point Peter. I simply stated a fact based on my experience. Frankly, consumers are tired of being told by insurers how the insurers are honest, fair, transparent, etc. It just rings hollow. Please move along. We'll never see eye to eye as our experiences and facts are completely different and you're at risk of sounding like a politician when telling us how honest you are and that you're here to serve us.

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Shafi Noss
  • Washington, D.C.
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Shafi Noss
  • Washington, D.C.
Replied Jan 12 2024, 09:06

Many people are just saying 'you should get it' without providing any reasoning. 

Let's look at some data: 

Q4 2022, ALTA premiums were 4.4B. So maybe for all 2022 $16B. In all 2022, payouts were $600M. That's a 3.75% payout ratio.  

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/alta-reports-full-y...

For hazard insurance here's Statefarm in 2021: "Earned premium was $27.6 billion. Incurred claims and loss adjustment expenses were $20.0 billion". That's a 72% payout ratio. 

Is the risk from hazard damage lower than the risk from title damage? I wouldn't guess so.

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Replied Jan 12 2024, 09:12
Quote from @Shafi Noss:

Many people are just saying 'you should get it' without providing any reasoning. 

Let's look at some data: 

Q4 2022, ALTA premiums were 4.4B. So maybe for all 2022 $16B. In all 2022, payouts were $600M. That's a 3.75% payout ratio.  

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/alta-reports-full-y...

For hazard insurance here's Statefarm in 2021: "Earned premium was $27.6 billion. Incurred claims and loss adjustment expenses were $20.0 billion". That's a 72% payout ratio. 

Is the risk from hazard damage lower than the risk from title damage? I wouldn't guess so.


 well you just convince us to open title company instead LOL