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David Sotomayor
  • Contractor
  • Florida
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Is it ok to ask for drawings in a land that is for sale?

David Sotomayor
  • Contractor
  • Florida
Posted Aug 5 2022, 22:19

Hello Guys. I probably have an unprofessional question but: 

So it will be our first large investment. This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? would the realtor be able to provide that, or they would basically sell it to me stamped? i just need an almost clear view of how much would each townhome cost after building etc, and get the loan as well. 

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Sergey A. Petrov
  • Real Estate Consultant
  • Seattle, WA
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Sergey A. Petrov
  • Real Estate Consultant
  • Seattle, WA
Replied Aug 5 2022, 22:22

If it is already being sold with drawings and designs, you get them whether or not you ask for them 😁

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Naveed Q.
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  • Brentwood, CA
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Naveed Q.
  • Investor
  • Brentwood, CA
Replied Aug 6 2022, 00:16

You should ask.If they are permitted you will need to know all the fees that are paid or not paid like school, utilities permit etc. etc.

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Ryan Normand
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  • Arizona
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Ryan Normand
  • Contractor
  • Arizona
Replied Aug 6 2022, 06:35
Quote from @David Sotomayor:
This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? . 
When you say "designs and drawings", do you mean conceptual drawings or an actual set of plans?

IMO the former does not add any value. You will still need to hire an architect to draft the full set of plans and get them approved by the city in order to pull permits. Also, there's no guarantee whoever did the original "drawings" paid any attention to zoning rules, Setbacks, height restrictions, etc... so you could end up having to scrap them if the city doesn't like them. I would get this clarified before buying. 

If it's the latter (i.e. a full set of stamped plans, ready to be permitted and bid on), then I would suggest asking for the full set, but if that fails then ask for at least a copy of the site plan and floor plan,  plus a list of all the other plans included. I would still proceed with caution, though. Why would someone go through the trouble of hiring an architect and drafting the plans and then not build? To me, something doesn't add up here.

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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Lake Oswego OR Summerlin, NV
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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Lake Oswego OR Summerlin, NV
Replied Aug 6 2022, 07:01
Quote from @Ryan Normand:
Quote from @David Sotomayor:
This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? . 
When you say "designs and drawings", do you mean conceptual drawings or an actual set of plans?

IMO the former does not add any value. You will still need to hire an architect to draft the full set of plans and get them approved by the city in order to pull permits. Also, there's no guarantee whoever did the original "drawings" paid any attention to zoning rules, Setbacks, height restrictions, etc... so you could end up having to scrap them if the city doesn't like them. I would get this clarified before buying. 

If it's the latter (i.e. a full set of stamped plans, ready to be permitted and bid on), then I would suggest asking for the full set, but if that fails then ask for at least a copy of the site plan and floor plan,  plus a list of all the other plans included. I would still proceed with caution, though. Why would someone go through the trouble of hiring an architect and drafting the plans and then not build? To me, something doesn't add up here.

its not uncommon to sell fully permitted projects.. ONe reason is if there is a big delta in value the seller can 1031 instead of creating inventory that would be taxed at the highest rate. Could be worried about the economy right now.. Might not have the horse power for the loans.. Lender might have backed out we see a lot of that right now.. lots of reasons.  And some folks are in the sole business of permitting projects and flipping them its what they do.

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Chris Seveney
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Chris Seveney
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Replied Aug 6 2022, 07:45
Quote from @David Sotomayor:

Hello Guys. I probably have an unprofessional question but: 

So it will be our first large investment. This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? would the realtor be able to provide that, or they would basically sell it to me stamped? i just need an almost clear view of how much would each townhome cost after building etc, and get the loan as well. 


 I would absolutely ask for the drawings and they should provide. It will give you the opportnuity to do your DD to determine if the project is viable

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Replied Aug 6 2022, 11:52
Quote from @Ryan Normand:
Quote from @David Sotomayor:
This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? . 
When you say "designs and drawings", do you mean conceptual drawings or an actual set of plans?

IMO the former does not add any value. You will still need to hire an architect to draft the full set of plans and get them approved by the city in order to pull permits. Also, there's no guarantee whoever did the original "drawings" paid any attention to zoning rules, Setbacks, height restrictions, etc... so you could end up having to scrap them if the city doesn't like them. I would get this clarified before buying. 

If it's the latter (i.e. a full set of stamped plans, ready to be permitted and bid on), then I would suggest asking for the full set, but if that fails then ask for at least a copy of the site plan and floor plan,  plus a list of all the other plans included. I would still proceed with caution, though. Why would someone go through the trouble of hiring an architect and drafting the plans and then not build? To me, something doesn't add up here.

I am actually selling a mixed use property that I have completed a lot of the due diligence for as I held entitlements for an owner occupied development prior to covid(I even partially cleared and graded the 2.68acres right before Covid). After covid, cost over doubled to develop and I could not expect my clients to absorb that cost. I decided to pivot and max out the site. I paid to have my architect draw up basic plans and my civil engineer do a preliminary stormwater drainage plan for the new site plan and got bids for the commercial and townhomes. I did all that thinking I could develop it myself since I had already gone through the process for my previous permits. I met with the city and got pre-app approval for the new plans under a change order.I got numerous bids and chose a developer/GC. 

Lenders loved the plan, but wanted me to have more experience in development in projects of this size, which I completely understand. I couldn't secure the 18million loan unless I brought in an investor. I found one, however they wanted an 80/20 equity split. To me, the stress and timeframe to completion had to be considered.

I had to sit down and really pencil everything out with the pros and cons and hard numbers, long and short term. In about 5 years it would have great returns, but I had to be realistic to my life situation, my lack of experience and decided it would probably be better off to sell the property altogether even though I have paid so much in due diligence already. I have included all the due diligence to be attached to the property. 

There are so many reasons that plans change and not all are nefarious. You just have to be discerning on what projects you are looking to do. I know what I don't know, and decided that this would be better off left to someone with more knowledge than I have at this time. Realistically, I need to work up to a project this size.

Having said that, it's primarily all the due diligence that holds value in my situation, as a developer will more than likely do their own plan. 

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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Lake Oswego OR Summerlin, NV
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Jay Hinrichs#1 All Forums Contributor
  • Real Estate Broker
  • Lake Oswego OR Summerlin, NV
Replied Aug 6 2022, 12:21
Quote from @Julie Nealey:
Quote from @Ryan Normand:
Quote from @David Sotomayor:
This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? . 
When you say "designs and drawings", do you mean conceptual drawings or an actual set of plans?

IMO the former does not add any value. You will still need to hire an architect to draft the full set of plans and get them approved by the city in order to pull permits. Also, there's no guarantee whoever did the original "drawings" paid any attention to zoning rules, Setbacks, height restrictions, etc... so you could end up having to scrap them if the city doesn't like them. I would get this clarified before buying. 

If it's the latter (i.e. a full set of stamped plans, ready to be permitted and bid on), then I would suggest asking for the full set, but if that fails then ask for at least a copy of the site plan and floor plan,  plus a list of all the other plans included. I would still proceed with caution, though. Why would someone go through the trouble of hiring an architect and drafting the plans and then not build? To me, something doesn't add up here.

I am actually selling a mixed use property that I have completed a lot of the due diligence for as I held entitlements for an owner occupied development prior to covid(I even partially cleared and graded the 2.68acres right before Covid). After covid, cost over doubled to develop and I could not expect my clients to absorb that cost. I decided to pivot and max out the site. I paid to have my architect draw up basic plans and my civil engineer do a preliminary stormwater drainage plan for the new site plan and got bids for the commercial and townhomes. I did all that thinking I could develop it myself since I had already gone through the process for my previous permits. I met with the city and got pre-app approval for the new plans under a change order.I got numerous bids and chose a developer/GC. 

Lenders loved the plan, but wanted me to have more experience in development in projects of this size, which I completely understand. I couldn't secure the 18million loan unless I brought in an investor. I found one, however they wanted an 80/20 equity split. To me, the stress and timeframe to completion had to be considered.

I had to sit down and really pencil everything out with the pros and cons and hard numbers, long and short term. In about 5 years it would have great returns, but I had to be realistic to my life situation, my lack of experience and decided it would probably be better off to sell the property altogether even though I have paid so much in due diligence already. I have included all the due diligence to be attached to the property. 

There are so many reasons that plans change and not all are nefarious. You just have to be discerning on what projects you are looking to do. I know what I don't know, and decided that this would be better off left to someone with more knowledge than I have at this time. Realistically, I need to work up to a project this size.

Having said that, it's primarily all the due diligence that holds value in my situation, as a developer will more than likely do their own plan. 


 Very very common scenario where folks with skills to bring a project through entitlement but lack actual experince .. And without a very strong partner have no way of finding funding for these price points.. I know it took me decades literally to where I am now with a 60 million dollar project all on my sole signature.  Sure would not have happened on my first deal .. you have to start with your own cash and build your experience or better yet or more likely is you go into these deals with partners day one. 

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Replied Aug 6 2022, 12:26
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
Quote from @Julie Nealey:
Quote from @Ryan Normand:
Quote from @David Sotomayor:
This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? . 
When you say "designs and drawings", do you mean conceptual drawings or an actual set of plans?

IMO the former does not add any value. You will still need to hire an architect to draft the full set of plans and get them approved by the city in order to pull permits. Also, there's no guarantee whoever did the original "drawings" paid any attention to zoning rules, Setbacks, height restrictions, etc... so you could end up having to scrap them if the city doesn't like them. I would get this clarified before buying. 

If it's the latter (i.e. a full set of stamped plans, ready to be permitted and bid on), then I would suggest asking for the full set, but if that fails then ask for at least a copy of the site plan and floor plan,  plus a list of all the other plans included. I would still proceed with caution, though. Why would someone go through the trouble of hiring an architect and drafting the plans and then not build? To me, something doesn't add up here.

I am actually selling a mixed use property that I have completed a lot of the due diligence for as I held entitlements for an owner occupied development prior to covid(I even partially cleared and graded the 2.68acres right before Covid). After covid, cost over doubled to develop and I could not expect my clients to absorb that cost. I decided to pivot and max out the site. I paid to have my architect draw up basic plans and my civil engineer do a preliminary stormwater drainage plan for the new site plan and got bids for the commercial and townhomes. I did all that thinking I could develop it myself since I had already gone through the process for my previous permits. I met with the city and got pre-app approval for the new plans under a change order.I got numerous bids and chose a developer/GC. 

Lenders loved the plan, but wanted me to have more experience in development in projects of this size, which I completely understand. I couldn't secure the 18million loan unless I brought in an investor. I found one, however they wanted an 80/20 equity split. To me, the stress and timeframe to completion had to be considered.

I had to sit down and really pencil everything out with the pros and cons and hard numbers, long and short term. In about 5 years it would have great returns, but I had to be realistic to my life situation, my lack of experience and decided it would probably be better off to sell the property altogether even though I have paid so much in due diligence already. I have included all the due diligence to be attached to the property. 

There are so many reasons that plans change and not all are nefarious. You just have to be discerning on what projects you are looking to do. I know what I don't know, and decided that this would be better off left to someone with more knowledge than I have at this time. Realistically, I need to work up to a project this size.

Having said that, it's primarily all the due diligence that holds value in my situation, as a developer will more than likely do their own plan. 


 Very very common scenario where folks with skills to bring a project through entitlement but lack actual experince .. And without a very strong partner have no way of finding funding for these price points.. I know it took me decades literally to where I am now with a 60 million dollar project all on my sole signature.  Sure would not have happened on my first deal .. you have to start with your own cash and build your experience or better yet or more likely is you go into these deals with partners day one. 


 100% agree. I was trying to go from a 7million project to almost a 20million project, and I knew what I didn't know. It is much too big of a project for me to cut my teeth on. I will scale up. 

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David Sotomayor
  • Contractor
  • Florida
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David Sotomayor
  • Contractor
  • Florida
Replied Aug 8 2022, 16:05
Quote from @David Sotomayor:

Hello Guys. I probably have an unprofessional question but: 

So it will be our first large investment. This land is being sold with designs and drawings of townhomes that are allowed to be built. So my question is, is it ok, or professional, or legal, to request a copy of the drawings, something basic, to start doing my own due diligence of soft costs with contractors and architects? would the realtor be able to provide that, or they would basically sell it to me stamped? i just need an almost clear view of how much would each townhome cost after building etc, and get the loan as well. 


UPDATE:
thank you everyone for your feedback. We put up an offer. They will provide us copies of drawings. Thats a good step. Now we are Waiting for an answer. Question? Anyone out here with an spreadsheet deal analysis that might want to help us out with? Thank you all again!  

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Ryan Tuttle
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  • Santa Monica, CA
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Ryan Tuttle
  • Lender
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Replied Aug 10 2022, 20:15

@David Sotomayor

PM me for that financial model