Considerations for turning expensive home into rental

[Stephen Williams]

I am retiring from the military and currently have my home on the market north of Seattle for $775k.  Based on the estimated prices we have $300k in equity right now. The market for our range of home has just about come to a screeching halt and today we finally got an offer for $745k and I can tell how this is going they will be trying to pay less after possibly wasting our time in escrow.

We are currently on a 2.5% 30 year mortgage and the payment with Taxes and insurance is $2337.  A home 2 doors down is renting for $2950 that is 200 sq ft smaller and on a .86 acre lot while our home is on a 1.26 acre lot.

Now I know we have cash flow and it will be pretty nice as in close to $1,000 a month but I need to get some data from experienced investors to make sure I'm not missing anything.  I'm leaning more towards get out and take the money to Florida where we're moving rather than have one huge rental for the price of what can be 3-5 smaller properties or doors in a bigger property.

Just wondering what are some thoughts here.  Not really looking for suggestions but I have heard mixed feelings from some bigger names.  

David Greene always says invest where you feel comfortable investing and move on to other markets.

Jason Hartman has said it's doesn't make sense to have $775k invested in a single door.  $3500 in rent is steep for my area for a single family home and that is only a 5.4% gross return on %775k.

Others and even to mention Ken McElroy has mentioned this interest rate is hard to beat so he would be hard pressed to sell BUT...he was talking about primary residence not exactly an investment.  I do not see staying here as ideal for us.

[Colleen F.]

@Stephen Williams welcome to BP! Sell it. I don't know if this is a good offer but in the end having that much cash tied up in equity you have to ask if you could earn more on that cash elsewhere. Comparatively speaking the lot size and 200 square foot more isn't going to bring you in much more rent unless you have an extra bedroom. There is also a risk is having all the cash in one rental. I am sure someone will give you cash on cash and return on investment numbers but the only way I could see this as a good investment is if it makes a great STR with higher numbers and you are hedging your bets on inflation.

[Yon Jones]

I would have to agree with more doors less risk. I’ve lived in Tacoma and I know how expensive Seattle can be. I would do good market research for where you want to go in Florida and make sure the numbers make sense with active listing on the market now. If the city you choose to live in isn’t as investor friendly I’d consider smaller cities near where you plan to retire. We have purchased house hacked and sold in each place we have lived now the main focus is to develop a portfolio of properties ranging from A-C class in a lower taxed market in an area I’m familiar with. The vacancy for such a large expensive property deters me vs a property with a mortgage of equal value with 4-6 unit. Hope that’s helpful depending on where your headed in Florida I may know some realtors if you need assistance. 

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Colleen F.:

@Stephen Williams welcome to BP! Sell it. I don't know if this is a good offer but in the end having that much cash tied up in equity you have to ask if you could earn more on that cash elsewhere. Comparatively speaking the lot size and 200 square foot more isn't going to bring you in much more rent unless you have an extra bedroom. There is also a risk is having all the cash in one rental. I am sure someone will give you cash on cash and return on investment numbers but the only way I could see this as a good investment is if it makes a great STR with higher numbers and you are hedging your bets on inflation.

Thanks that’s good information. STR isn’t an option due to HOA rules. And both homes are 4bd/3ba I sorta have 3.5ba but that’s not much more of a difference. Taking the equity and putting to better work elsewhere is what I was favoring too. 

[Josh Green]

@stephen when and where are you moving to FL? This is a tough choice and I would need more details on your goals and intents and timelines to make a better suggestion. One thing to question is have you considered doing an STR on that? You might be able to pull in 1.5-3x that much in monthly rent, and if so, I would keep. I'm from the west (SLC) and cities like that are going to continue to blow up over the next 10 years. There's several strategies you could take here, including unlocking some of that equity rather than outright selling. Again, just depends on the details.

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Yon Jones:

I would have to agree with more doors less risk. I’ve lived in Tacoma and I know how expensive Seattle can be. I would do good market research for where you want to go in Florida and make sure the numbers make sense with active listing on the market now. If the city you choose to live in isn’t as investor friendly I’d consider smaller cities near where you plan to retire. We have purchased house hacked and sold in each place we have lived now the main focus is to develop a portfolio of properties ranging from A-C class in a lower taxed market in an area I’m familiar with. The vacancy for such a large expensive property deters me vs a property with a mortgage of equal value with 4-6 unit. Hope that’s helpful depending on where your headed in Florida I may know some realtors if you need assistance. 

Thanks I’ll reach if needed. I’ve been in touch with an investor who has been a realtor for a while and doesn’t mind helping me out. I will be moving to Pensacola FL so there’s plenty of cheaper properties around there. 

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Josh Green:

@stephen when and where are you moving to FL? This is a tough choice and I would need more details on your goals and intents and timelines to make a better suggestion. One thing to question is have you considered doing an STR on that? You might be able to pull in 1.5-3x that much in monthly rent, and if so, I would keep. I'm from the west (SLC) and cities like that are going to continue to blow up over the next 10 years. There's several strategies you could take here, including unlocking some of that equity rather than outright selling. Again, just depends on the details.

Moving from Whidbey Island north of Seattle to Pensacola FL. 

The HOA does not allow for it. At 6% interest just taking 100k out will probably kill all cash flow based on the numbers I’m seeing for rent around here. 

STR is very busy and pretty much booming as my wife works with her brother to manage a STR in Gulf Breeze and they’ve been getting over $5k a month and the summer months haven’t even arrived yet. I think they’re expecting $8k on average per month during peak season on a house he was previously renting for $2,000 a month. 

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Colleen F.:

@Stephen Williams welcome to BP! Sell it. I don't know if this is a good offer but in the end having that much cash tied up in equity you have to ask if you could earn more on that cash elsewhere. Comparatively speaking the lot size and 200 square foot more isn't going to bring you in much more rent unless you have an extra bedroom. There is also a risk is having all the cash in one rental. I am sure someone will give you cash on cash and return on investment numbers but the only way I could see this as a good investment is if it makes a great STR with higher numbers and you are hedging your bets on inflation.

Also I agree with your thoughts on the offer but it’s the only one we have and it’s been almost a month. Every home in our range is just sitting and the buyers we have came up from California to look around and only made an offer on our house. Comparing to all other homes in the area we were told by our realtor we had the most to offer. I do feel the interest rate hike did what they intended for it to do. 

[Scott E.]

First of all, thank you for your service.

Regarding rent vs sell, my vote is for you to sell because it doesn't sound like there is much cash flow in this deal (meaning not a good return on your equity)

If a comp 2 doors down is renting for $2950, maybe you will get ~$3250 for yours? After paying your mortgage and accounting for maintenance, vacancy, cap ex, etc your are going to fizzle your net rents down to the point where this deal is cash flowing $500 per month at best.

$500 per month in cash flow is $6000 per year. $6000 per year on $300k is a 2% return. Not good..

[Cameron Johansson]

Quote from @Stephen Williams:

Quote from @Yon Jones:

I would have to agree with more doors less risk. I’ve lived in Tacoma and I know how expensive Seattle can be. I would do good market research for where you want to go in Florida and make sure the numbers make sense with active listing on the market now. If the city you choose to live in isn’t as investor friendly I’d consider smaller cities near where you plan to retire. We have purchased house hacked and sold in each place we have lived now the main focus is to develop a portfolio of properties ranging from A-C class in a lower taxed market in an area I’m familiar with. The vacancy for such a large expensive property deters me vs a property with a mortgage of equal value with 4-6 unit. Hope that’s helpful depending on where your headed in Florida I may know some realtors if you need assistance. 

Thanks I’ll reach if needed. I’ve been in touch with an investor who has been a realtor for a while and doesn’t mind helping me out. I will be moving to Pensacola FL so there’s plenty of cheaper properties around there. 

 Pensacola FL is a great place! Very relaxed with an amazing beach. Hope you love it here!!!

[Sherief Elbassuoni]

@Stephen Williams, if you are moving to FL, it makes sense to sell your property in the Seattle market and use the sales proceeds for the purchase of your next property in FL.

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Cameron Johansson:

Quote from @Stephen Williams:

Quote from @Yon Jones:

I would have to agree with more doors less risk. I’ve lived in Tacoma and I know how expensive Seattle can be. I would do good market research for where you want to go in Florida and make sure the numbers make sense with active listing on the market now. If the city you choose to live in isn’t as investor friendly I’d consider smaller cities near where you plan to retire. We have purchased house hacked and sold in each place we have lived now the main focus is to develop a portfolio of properties ranging from A-C class in a lower taxed market in an area I’m familiar with. The vacancy for such a large expensive property deters me vs a property with a mortgage of equal value with 4-6 unit. Hope that’s helpful depending on where your headed in Florida I may know some realtors if you need assistance. 

Thanks I’ll reach if needed. I’ve been in touch with an investor who has been a realtor for a while and doesn’t mind helping me out. I will be moving to Pensacola FL so there’s plenty of cheaper properties around there. 

 Pensacola FL is a great place! Very relaxed with an amazing beach. Hope you love it here!!!

Thanks!

I’m seeing a lot of people popping up with Exp Realty. My current Selling Agent and my contact in Pensacola are with Exp and I will be looking into it myself.  I might hold off for a while as I am a Pilot so will have to see if it’s worth it as I will not have the availability to do this if I’m leaving town for days at a time. 

[Cameron Johansson]

Quote from @Stephen Williams:

Quote from @Cameron Johansson:

Quote from @Stephen Williams:

Quote from @Yon Jones:

I would have to agree with more doors less risk. I’ve lived in Tacoma and I know how expensive Seattle can be. I would do good market research for where you want to go in Florida and make sure the numbers make sense with active listing on the market now. If the city you choose to live in isn’t as investor friendly I’d consider smaller cities near where you plan to retire. We have purchased house hacked and sold in each place we have lived now the main focus is to develop a portfolio of properties ranging from A-C class in a lower taxed market in an area I’m familiar with. The vacancy for such a large expensive property deters me vs a property with a mortgage of equal value with 4-6 unit. Hope that’s helpful depending on where your headed in Florida I may know some realtors if you need assistance. 

Thanks I’ll reach if needed. I’ve been in touch with an investor who has been a realtor for a while and doesn’t mind helping me out. I will be moving to Pensacola FL so there’s plenty of cheaper properties around there. 

 Pensacola FL is a great place! Very relaxed with an amazing beach. Hope you love it here!!!

Thanks!

I’m seeing a lot of people popping up with Exp Realty. My current Selling Agent and my contact in Pensacola are with Exp and I will be looking into it myself.  I might hold off for a while as I am a Pilot so will have to see if it’s worth it as I will not have the availability to do this if I’m leaving town for days at a time. 

Congrats on retiring from the military! Will you be flying airlines or charter down here? Im sure your agent will be able to supply all the answers to your questions you have along with this website. Gotta relax on the beach when you get here so we can get you turned into a local.

[Andrew Garcia]

Hi @Stephen Williams, if you have enough VA entitlement left to buy a house in Florida, there is really no reason to sell your property. Unless you want to invest that money somewhere else.

If you did, you would have to look at what your return on equity is. 

After all the fees associated with selling your home, you will likely walk away with $225,000. You will have to put 20% down for each investment property. After closing costs, let's say you can buy $1,000,000 worth of real estate to keep the numbers simple.

A few considerations:

1. Will those properties bring in $1,000 per month before factoring in maintenance, cap ex, vacancy, and management expenses?

2. The interest rate will be higher so cash flow will be tougher.

3. Will you see more appreciation in Seattle with an $800k property or in Florida with $1,000,000 worth of property.

4. How much is your time, energy, and effort worth to find, acquire, manage, and eventually dispose of 4 properties compared to one.

You can also look into a HELOC so you can access some of your current equity to buy a property in Florida. Then, see which one performs better and invest accordingly.

Hope this helps! Let me know if I can be of any assistance.

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Cameron Johansson:

Congrats on retiring from the military! Will you be flying airlines or charter down here? Im sure your agent will be able to supply all the answers to your questions you have along with this website. Gotta relax on the beach when you get here so we can get you turned into a local.

I currently have a scheduled start date with a Charter/Cargo company flying domestic in the 737.  Interviewing with a Cargo company next Wednesday in hopes of getting a job flying worldwide in 747 or 777.

[Bill Brandt]

I don’t have a problem with the price and the rent, and especially the made up argument about equity in a deal. Simply take out a heloc, boom, normal equity in a deal, so ignore that argument. 

But…if you’re leaving the state consider this question. If you were living in Florida would you buy this property as a rental from there? If not, probably sell. 

But…what I consider important you left out. What did you pay for this property?  This is your chance to sell without paying taxes. If you’re only talking $50k in appreciation since you bought it, fine. But if it’s up $100 or $200k that’s $15-$30k in taxes you’re saving. How long will it take the rental to make that money just so you can be even with selling today?

I don’t think you have to give the house away. But do some math on the deal. Maybe talk to a PM about how much rent they could get and what you would bet in a Hans off deal. IF you have less than $50k in appreciation. 

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Bill Brandt:

I don’t have a problem with the price and the rent, and especially the made up argument about equity in a deal. Simply take out a heloc, boom, normal equity in a deal, so ignore that argument. 

But…if you’re leaving the state consider this question. If you were living in Florida would you buy this property as a rental from there? If not, probably sell. 

But…what I consider important you left out. What did you pay for this property?  This is your chance to sell without paying taxes. If you’re only talking $50k in appreciation since you bought it, fine. But if it’s up $100 or $200k that’s $15-$30k in taxes you’re saving. How long will it take the rental to make that money just so you can be even with selling today?

I don’t think you have to give the house away. But do some math on the deal. Maybe talk to a PM about how much rent they could get and what you would bet in a Hans off deal. IF you have less than $50k in appreciation. 

I didn’t consider the tax implication for later on. We paid $510. I was under the impression cost basis was based on value when we put it up for rent but if that’s not the case that’s a bit of a difference for me. 

[Jonathan R McLaughlin]

Sell! , you will access 300K (or 250K whatever) with the most powerful investment tax break ever...the primary owners capital gain exclusion of $250K for a single and $500K for a couple. Really hard to beat.

And your cash flow wont be close to $1K....you just calculated PITI not repairs (tenants are hard on a house, even good ones), CAPEX, vacancy etc.

Take the big win and reinvest.

[Steve K.]

@Stephen Williams if you’ve lived there at least 2 years you should be able to hold another 3 and still have the cap gains exclusion (up to $250k individual, $500k married couple, must have lived in the property for 2 of the last 5). If you think you’ll have good appreciation plus good cash flow for the next 3 years, I’d hold and rent it personally. I’m primarily a multifamily investor but when we’ve held our former primaries in this way and rented them for 3 years we’ve had better returns on those properties than any of our multi families by far. What we’ve done is left them furnished and rent medium term (30+ days) at the same rate as short term rentals in the area. This way we maximize cash flow (these properties have excellent cash flow and better appreciation than we’ve had on any of our MF buildings, plus the added benefit of the cap gains tax exclusion). So that’s what I would do. Renting nice homes is so much better management-wise as well, in my experience (higher quality tenants, less turnover, less tenant damage or general issues, etc.)

[Matthew Paul]

Sounds like a nice house . Now ask yourself " How much damage could a bad tenant do ?  AND then ask yourself  " How much would it cost to re do the inside of the house ? "         Some houses are just too nice to rent 

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Matthew Paul:

Sounds like a nice house . Now ask yourself " How much damage could a bad tenant do ?  AND then ask yourself  " How much would it cost to re do the inside of the house ? "         Some houses are just too nice to rent 

I feel that way for this area. Had a neighbor ask around for a handyman to install a sink that she already bought and she was quoted $600. Made me consider becoming a handyman. It is a nice house with some TLC needed due to the big yard and so much around. One down tree and I’m out 2 months of rent if it’s a tenant can’t can’t roll up their sleeves and chops some firewood for themselves. 

[Matthew Paul]

Quote from @Stephen Williams:

Quote from @Matthew Paul:

Sounds like a nice house . Now ask yourself " How much damage could a bad tenant do ?  AND then ask yourself  " How much would it cost to re do the inside of the house ? "         Some houses are just too nice to rent 

I feel that way for this area. Had a neighbor ask around for a handyman to install a sink that she already bought and she was quoted $600. Made me consider becoming a handyman. It is a nice house with some TLC needed due to the big yard and so much around. One down tree and I’m out 2 months of rent if it’s a tenant can’t can’t roll up their sleeves and chops some firewood for themselves. 

 @Stephen Williams Thats why I am a contractor .  $ 600 by noon and 2 more job for the day . More jobs than I can do 

[Martin M.]

Hi Stephen, if the numbers work, you could always rent it for 1 year and then sell if it's not working for you. If you haven't already done so, I'd work and re-work the numbers in a spreadsheet to ensure that you've got the return calculated as accurately as possible. Numbers to consider:

I appreciate that the tenant may pay the first three of these, but still mentioning them in case not.

Utilities Water

Utilities Electricity

Utilities Heat

Utilities Garbage & Recycling

Snow Removal (does it snow in Seattle??)

Landscaping

Proeprty Taxes

Insurance

Mortgage Payment

Vacancy - 7 to 10% is national average

Property Management - Roughly 10% of total rent (Call a few local property management companies to get actual quotes if you haven't done so)

Repairs - Oven not working, plumbing etc.

Capital Expenditures Reserves - What shape is your roof in? etc.

Also for your return, you'll want to calculate that based on the money that you've personally invested out of pocket into the place. If I'm understanding your post correctly you might be calculating the return based on the market value of the property, i.e. 775k - but it doesn't sound as if you've placed 775k of your own money into the property, since you've stated that you have a mortgage.

What you'd want to do instead to calculate the return is you'd take your annual rental income, minus all of the expenses in a year, expenses being everything that you're paying out of pocket in relation to the property, such as the examples above, and that gets you your cash flow. For example's sake, let's say rental income's 36k a year and all your expenses are 34k a year. Your cash flow is 2k a year (36k - 34k). If you've placed 150k into the property, i.e. down payment etc - to calculate your return you'd calculate:

2,000 = x% of 150,000

OR

2,000 divided by 150,000

which equals a return of 1.33%

The wild card here is, Seattle as I understand it has had a strong housing market in recent times. A decade from now could you have an additional $300,000 in equity? Potential appreciation is something else to consider in addition to your annual return. 

Good luck!

[Roy Nash]

We moved from Seattle Area in 2006 and could not sell for what we thought it was worth as it was just the beginning of the mortgage crises.   I turned a nice house into a rental and eventually the market recovered and we sold in 2018.  In the mean time we lost our principle residence capital gains exemption.  After selling it we then had to use a 1031 exchange to shield our equity gain.   So for $30K difference in the sales price that probably does not cover the capital gains that will be due if you ever sell after turning it into a rental.  Also ironically we eventually sold to our renter "AS IS" for a lower value than we could have received if it had been in the pristine condition of Pre-Rental.  So basically my renter got a better deal due to the wear and tear they caused!  LOL.   Anyway for $30K either one of those issues could cost you that much or more.  

[Stephen Williams]

Quote from @Martin M.:

Hi Stephen, if the numbers work, you could always rent it for 1 year and then sell if it's not working for you. If you haven't already done so, I'd work and re-work the numbers in a spreadsheet to ensure that you've got the return calculated as accurately as possible. Numbers to consider:

I appreciate that the tenant may pay the first three of these, but still mentioning them in case not.

Utilities Water

Utilities Electricity

Utilities Heat

Utilities Garbage & Recycling

Snow Removal (does it snow in Seattle??)

Landscaping

Proeprty Taxes

Insurance

Mortgage Payment

Vacancy - 7 to 10% is national average

Property Management - Roughly 10% of total rent (Call a few local property management companies to get actual quotes if you haven't done so)

Repairs - Oven not working, plumbing etc.

Capital Expenditures Reserves - What shape is your roof in? etc.

Also for your return, you'll want to calculate that based on the money that you've personally invested out of pocket into the place. If I'm understanding your post correctly you might be calculating the return based on the market value of the property, i.e. 775k - but it doesn't sound as if you've placed 775k of your own money into the property, since you've stated that you have a mortgage.

What you'd want to do instead to calculate the return is you'd take your annual rental income, minus all of the expenses in a year, expenses being everything that you're paying out of pocket in relation to the property, such as the examples above, and that gets you your cash flow. For example's sake, let's say rental income's 36k a year and all your expenses are 34k a year. Your cash flow is 2k a year (36k - 34k). If you've placed 150k into the property, i.e. down payment etc - to calculate your return you'd calculate:

2,000 = x% of 150,000

OR

2,000 divided by 150,000

which equals a return of 1.33%

The wild card here is, Seattle as I understand it has had a strong housing market in recent times. A decade from now could you have an additional $300,000 in equity? Potential appreciation is something else to consider in addition to your annual return. 

Good luck!

I got around to running the numbers and they're not great. It's a 2% CoC Return and keep in mind these numbers did not include property management. I guess I should go back to include that because technically I would like to say I'm paying myself for managing the property. Using the 2% rule I'm sitting at .5%. Using the 50% rule I'm at a -$196.27 cash flow. Keep in mind this is WITHOUT factoring in property management which would take away another $320 a month which is the only reason why the numbers are even positive.

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