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Frankie Paterno
  • Staten Island, NY
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What areas are currently cashflowing

Frankie Paterno
  • Staten Island, NY
Posted

Good Morning,

What areas are still cashflowing and I can scoop up and hold? Is Ohio/Indiana/arkansas over-saturated now? Looking to network with realtors and investors in the game! Cash ready. 

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Travis Timmons
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Ellsworth, ME
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Travis Timmons
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Ellsworth, ME
Replied

Places that have little to no appreciation upside above the rate of inflation or a well executed purchase for a short term, mid term, or rent by the room strategy. 

Maybe I'm missing something, but that's how I see it.

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Mike Paolucci
Agent
  • Realtor
  • Columbus, Oh
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Mike Paolucci
Agent
  • Realtor
  • Columbus, Oh
Replied
Quote from @Frankie Paterno:

Good Morning,

What areas are still cashflowing and I can scoop up and hold? Is Ohio/Indiana/arkansas over-saturated now? Looking to network with realtors and investors in the game! Cash ready. 


Can't speak much about Indiana / Arkansas. Depending on what market you choose in Ohio, yes, you can find some cash flowing properties. 

I found a 3bd/1ba single family near Dayton for $70k last week. Good for both LTR and section 8 rentals depending on what strategy you're looking to employ. 

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Aristotle Kumpis
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  • Lake Forest, CA
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Aristotle Kumpis
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  • Investor
  • Lake Forest, CA
Replied

Depends on how much you put down. 25% or 30% down will cash flow in most markets. How much cash flow are you expecting? On a turnkey house, expect to see $250-$300 a month if you put 25% down after all expenses. We even have brand new homes that cash flow more, due to the fact that the builders offer a much lower interest rate. Or consider a multi family as well.

  • Aristotle Kumpis
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    Sam McCormack
    Agent
    • Real Estate Agent
    • Cincinnati, OH
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    Sam McCormack
    Agent
    • Real Estate Agent
    • Cincinnati, OH
    Replied
    Quote from @Frankie Paterno:

    Good Morning,

    What areas are still cashflowing and I can scoop up and hold? Is Ohio/Indiana/arkansas over-saturated now? Looking to network with realtors and investors in the game! Cash ready. 


     Greater Cincinnati has been good to me and my clients. I am an agent in Cincinnati and Northern Ky, investor as well. If you are curious, shoot me a message!

    • Real Estate Agent

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    Pat Aboukhaled
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    • Scottsdale, AZ
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    Pat Aboukhaled
    Agent
    • Real Estate Agent
    • Scottsdale, AZ
    Replied

    Hey Frankie! Great to see a fellow investor ready to jump in....especially when you’re looking to hold for cash flow. A lot of markets have shifted, but there are still some solid options out there.

    Right now, you might want to look into places like Montgomery, AL and Baltimore, MD-two markets that are still flying under the radar for many investors. Montgomery has incredibly low property taxes and a large stable job market anchored by government and education sectors. The downtown area has also seen a lot of recent revitalization, making it more attractive for new tenants, and housing prices are still relatively low compared to other markets. A buddy of mine was able to scoop up a couple of duplexes downtown for under $200K each, and they’re already cash flowing nicely.

    For Phoenix specifically, I’ve seen a lot of action in Downtown Phoenix and Paradise Valley Village, where investors have found strong tenant demand. A colleague recently closed on a small apartment complex in Downtown Phoenix, and they’re seeing a great return on short-term rentals targeting ASU students and young professionals.

    Feel free to dig deeper into these areas and keep networking! It’s all about staying one step ahead, and from the sound of it, your already doing great.

    Jasper, the Pat Boukhaled investor team,
    Turning investment visions into reality in Phoenix, AZ - ranked #1 for residential real estate growth and opportunity by PwC



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    Travis Biziorek
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    Travis Biziorek
    • Investor
    • Arroyo Grande, CA
    Replied

    Hey Frankie,

    I know the feeling—some markets have definitely gotten crowded. I invest in Detroit, and it’s still providing great cash flow opportunities. The rent-to-price ratio there is extremely favorable. Most of the deals I’m doing today are in the $80k-$90k range, with rents between $1,200-$1,300, which gives a rent-to-price ratio of around 1.3-1.5%. That’s pretty tough to find in other places right now.

    The city’s seen some positive growth, too—2023 was the first year in nearly 70 years where the US Census showed a slight population uptick in Detroit. It’s not without its challenges, but if you’re ready to do the work, there are some solid opportunities there.

    Happy to send over some resources if you want to dive deeper into the market.

    Best,
    Travis

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    Timothy Hero
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    Timothy Hero
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    Replied

    I quote deals across the country for DSCR. What I find is, markets where you can still find single family homes for $200k or less is where the cash flow is (percentage-wise).

    Once you get to the $250k homes, especially with rates where they are, you start to get very little cash flow.

    Ohio is consistently strong on cash flow.

  • Timothy Hero
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    Marco Fiore
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    • Real Estate Agent
    • Cincinnati, OH
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    Marco Fiore
    Agent
    • Real Estate Agent
    • Cincinnati, OH
    Replied

    Like previously said, it depends on how much money you put down. The higher the DP, the better the chance you have at cash flowing. 25% down is the norm. If thats the case, cash flow will be primarily in the D + C areas. You can cashflow in B areas but it takes about 3-6 months to get that property up to its full potential. This is due to low rents / vacancies. Many of these owners have their properties paid off. So, they would rather have low rents than any vacancies. 

    • Real Estate Agent Ohio (#2022005126)

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    Samuel Diouf
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    Samuel Diouf
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    Replied

    There's still an abundant amount of cash-flowing deals in here in Ohio. I like Columbus because of the city's massive growth, but other markets like Cleveland will be a little more cash-flow heavy. 

    Are you focusing more on cash-flow over appreciation? 

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    Henry Lazerow
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    Henry Lazerow
    • Real Estate Agent
    • Chicago, IL
    Replied

    In chicago class A north side neighborhoods at 25 down you can cashflow on 4 unit properties. I have sold many of these to CA investors looking for positive cashflow yield+strong rent growth/tenant quality.

    You also can cashflow in lower class areas but really need boots on the ground to make those work, not recommended if out of state. I own 4s in both classes and the working class suburb one is such a headache. Sticking to class A/B+ from now on. 

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    Mike H.
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    Mike H.
    • Rental Property Investor
    • Manteno, IL
    Replied

    I think you're missing the most important piece of investing - and thats the assumption that you need to buy right. Its the age old adage that you make money when you buy.  

    I see too many people above suggesting you need to put 20 to 30% down to cash flow.  But they appear to be suggesting that you're paying retail.  And therein lies the problem.  If you're paying retail, you are not investing right.

    You need to be able to find deals. They're out there. They require more effort. But they can be had. Find markets where if you're all in at 75% or better, you'll cash flow and then go find deals to where you can be all in at that LTV (i.e. purchase plus rehab)

    Direct mail works.  Mail people that appear to be in a tight spot - i.e. 90 day notices, unpaid taxes, ect.  And find the houses that you can be all in around 70 to 75% purchase plus rehab.  And then hold.

    To me, I'd suggest you look at smaller towns that have good schools and are close to cities so that you can get houses closer to that 200k or less mark yet still have a shot at decent appreciation and decent rental increases over time. Be sure to take property taxes into account too - there's a huge difference across the country. 

    Here's the other thing I'd add.  If you can find the deals, you can do the 2 for 1 thing too. Lets say the market is 200k houses. And you flip one and make 30k and then you hold the second one and throw that 30k into a deal that you picked up for 150k.  Now you're at 120k on a 200k house and your cash flow should be pretty solid. More work to have to do two deals to keep one.  

     

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    Eric Fernwood
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    Eric Fernwood
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    Replied

    Hello @Frankie Paterno,

    You're focusing on day-one cash flow, but you'll likely hold a property for as long as you live. Therefore, you need to adopt a longer-term perspective.

    Real estate is a long-term investment. ROI and cash flow only predict how a property is likely to perform on day one of a lifetime hold. I believe that what happens beyond day one, is far more important than day one. I will explain my thought.

    The goal of real estate investing is financial freedom. Financial freedom isn't just about replacing your current income; it's about maintaining your desired lifestyle for the rest of your life. This requires an income that meets four requirements. (Click to enlarge.)


    As you can see, financial freedom has two primary dependencies. The first is the investment city or location. All long-term income characteristics are determined by the city. The second is a reliable tenant segment. In this post, I will focus only on the location requirements.

    Rents Rise Faster Than Inflation

    Inflation erodes the value of money over time, causing prices for goods and services to rise. To maintain your current standard of living, your rental income must increase faster than inflation. If rents don't outpace inflation, you can't achieve financial freedom—no matter how many properties you own.

    For example, let's say you buy property in a city where rents increase by 2% annually, while inflation averages 4% per year. How will your financial situation look after 5, 10, and 15 years? I will assume an initial rent of $1.000/Mo.

    • 5 years: $1,000 x (1 + 2%)^5 / (1 + 4%)^5 ≈ $907
    • 10 years: $1,000 x (1 + 2%)^10 / (1 + 4%)^10 ≈ $824
    • 15 years: $1,000 x (1 + 2%)^15 / (1 + 4%)^15 ≈ $747

    So, every year, the amount of goods and services you can buy will decrease, even though rents increased each year. The problem is that rents did not increase faster than inflation.

    What if you buy in a city where rents increase by 8% per year?

    • 5 years: $1,000 x (1 + 8%)^5 / (1 + 4%)^5 ≈ $1,208
    • 10 years: $1,000 x (1 +8%)^10 / (1 + 4%)^10 ≈ $1,459
    • 15 years: $1,000 x (1 + 8%)^15 / (1 + 4%)^15 ≈ $1,761

    The amount of goods and services you will be able to afford increases over time.

    Investing in cities with high rent growth rate decreases the number of properties you will need to reach financial freedom. For example, suppose you need $5,000/Mo to replace your current income and the cash flow from each property is $300/Mo. How many property will you need?

    With limited rent growth:

    • $5,000/$300 ≈ 17 properties.

    What if you buy in a city with 8%/yr rent growth? Assuming a $2000/Mo starting rent and a $1700/Mo expense:

    • Year 0: $2,000 x (1 + 8%)^0 - $1,700 ≈ $300: $5,000 / $300 = 17 properties
    • Year 1: $2,000 x (1 + 8%)^1 - $1,700 ≈ $460: $5,000 / $460 = 11 properties
    • Year 2: $2,000 x (1 + 8%)^2 - $1,700 ≈ $633: $5,000 / $633 = 8 properties
    • Year 3: $2,000 x (1 + 8%)^3 - $1,700 ≈ $819: $5,000 / $819 = 6 properties
    • Year 4: $2,000 x (1 + 8%)^4 - $1,700 ≈ $1,021: $5,000 / $1,021 = 5 properties

    While the above is over simplified, the concept is sound.

    Sufficient Income

    You'll need income from multiple properties to replace your current earnings. If you invest in a low or no-appreciation location (i.e., cities without significant and sustained population growth), every investment dollar must come from your savings.

    As in the prior example, if you require 17 properties and each property costs $250,000 and your only acquisition cost is a 25% down payment, how much capital will you need?

    • 17 x $250,000 x 25% ≈ $1,062,500

    Over a million dollars in after-tax savings is impossible for most people. However, what if you purchase property in a city with high appreciation?

    In such a location, you can use cash-out refinancing. So, how much will it cost to buy your first property? Let's assume a $400,000 property with a 25% down payment.

    • 25% x $400,000 ≈ $100,000

    If the appreciation rate is 8%, how long will you need to let the property appreciate until a cash-out refinance yields the needed $100,000? I'll assume no principal pay down and simplify by assuming the next property will also cost $400,000. This isn't realistic because all properties are appreciating in such a city.

    • After one year: $400,000 x (1 + 8%)^1 x 75% - $300,000 ≈ $24,000
    • After two years : $400,000 x (1 + 8%)^2 x 75% - $300,000 ≈ $49,920
    • After three years: $400,000 x (1 + 8%)^3 x 75% - $300,000 ≈ $77,914
    • After four years: $400,000 x (1 + 8%)^4 x 75% - $300,000 ≈ $108,147

    So, after four years, you can use the proceeds from a cash-out refinance to buy your next property. Then, you will have two properties appreciating at 8% per year. Using cash-out refinancing, you can grow your portfolio with minimal additional cash from savings.

    Lasts throughout Your Lifetime

    Your rental income depends on your tenants maintaining similar wages throughout your lifetime. However, all non-government jobs have a finite lifespan. On average, companies last about 10 years. Even large corporations, such as those listed on the S&P 500, survive for an average of only 18 years. Consequently, every non-government job your tenants currently hold will eventually end. For tenants to continue paying comparable rent, new companies must move into the city and create replacement jobs with similar wages and skill requirements. This means the location must possess the right characteristics to attract new businesses.

    If the city fails to attract new companies, soon only low-paying service sector jobs will remain. As average incomes decline, city revenues fall. Cities then have no choice but to reduce services. This service decline leads to increased crime and an exodus of those who can afford to move away. The result is a downward spiral of falling average incomes and further cuts to city services—a financial death spiral from which few cities ever recover.

    Where Are You Most Likely to Find Properties With Initial Cash Flow?

    Cities with declining or stagnant populations have lower-cost properties and higher initial cash flow. This is because rents follow prices. Today's rents reflect property values from two to five years prior. This lag between rents and prices results in higher initial cash flow. Conversely, cities experiencing significant, sustained population growth have rapid appreciation and rent growth. Because rents lag behind prices, current rents reflect lower prices from the past. The result is lower initial cash flow. Consequently, you must choose between immediate cash flow or future rapid rent growth and appreciation. You cannot have both.

    Summary

    Frankie, to achieve financial freedom, you need to evaluate investment locations based on their likely performance over the next 30+ years, not just day-one cash flow. I hope this post provides insight into the self-defeating reality of investing in low-cost locations with static or declining populations.

    • Real Estate Agent NV (#S.0067069)

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    Mark Brown
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    Mark Brown
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    Replied

    Honestly, there are many variables. Since PITI = Principle, Interest, Taxes, and Insurance you could look for anything that lessens any of those variables. For instance, I think any place that's flood or hurricane prone (coastal places, Florida, etc.) will have sky high insurance so I'd avoid. Places with sky-high inflated prices -Altanta,LA,etc. - are other places to avoid IMO because your principle and interest will be high and you might not be able to cashflow.

    If I were you I'd look for multifamily homes in places with lesser populations in midwest, etc. The lower the home price the smaller your mortgage payment thus the higher your cashflow. Of course, average rents for a property similar to use matters as well.

  • Mark Brown
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    Drew Sygit
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    Drew Sygit
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    • Royal Oak, MI
    Replied

    @Frankie Paterno

    Recommend you first figure out the property Class you want to invest in, THEN figure out the corresponding location to invest in.

    If you apply Class A assumptions to a Class B or C purchase, your expectations won’t be met and it may be a financial disaster.

    If you buy/renovate a Class A property in Class D area, what quality of tenant will you get?

    Similarly, if you put all Class D tenants in a Class A 4-plex, what do you think will happen?

    So, when investing in areas they don’t really know, investors should research the different property Class submarkets.

    Here’s our OPINION for the Metro Detroit market (use as a template for your target area!) that we’ve learned in our 24 years, managing almost 700 doors across the Metro Detroit area, including almost 100 S8 leases.:

    Class A Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, 3-5 years for positive cashflow, but you get highest relative rent & value appreciation.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% the more recent norm.
    Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 680+ (roughly 5% probability of default), zero evictions in last 7 years.

    Class B Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, decent amount of relative rent & value appreciation.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, 5% should be applied only if proper research done to support.
    Tenant Pool: Majority will have FICO scores of 620-680 (around 10% probability of default), some blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 5 years

    Class C Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, high cashflow and at the lower end of relative rent & value appreciation. Can try to reposition to Class B, but neighborhood may impede these efforts.
    Vacancy Est: Historically 10%, but 15-20% should be used to also cover tenant nonpayment, eviction costs & damages.
    Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores of 560-620 (approaching 22% probability of default), many blemishes, but should have no evictions in last 2 years. Verifying last 2 years of rental history very important! Also, focus on 2 years of job/income stability.

    Class D Properties:
    Cashflow vs Appreciation: Typically, all cashflow with little, maybe even negative, relative rent & value appreciation
    Vacancy Est: 20%+ should be used to cover nonpayment, evictions & damages.
    Tenant Pool: majority will have FICO scores under 560 (almost 30% probability of default), little to no good tradelines, lots of collections & chargeoffs, recent evictions. Verifying last 2 years of rental history and income extremely important to find the “best of the worst”.

    Make sure you understand the Class of properties you are looking at and the corresponding results to expect.

    The City of Detroit has 183 Neighborhoods we’ve analyzed.

    PM us if you’d like to discuss this logical approach in greater detail!

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    Alfath Ahmed
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    Alfath Ahmed
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    • Columbus, OH
    Replied
    Quote from @Frankie Paterno:

    Good Morning,

    What areas are still cashflowing and I can scoop up and hold? Is Ohio/Indiana/arkansas over-saturated now? Looking to network with realtors and investors in the game! Cash ready. 


     I think the best cashflow markets will always be the tertiary markets of popular states. We talk a lot of about the midwest but Cleveland and Dayton will probably have some of the best cashflow in the midwest. 

    You should find a good realtor that can find you off-market deals in C+ to B- locations so you don't have to worry about tenant headaches. 

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    Melissa Johnsen
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    Melissa Johnsen
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    Replied

    @Frankie Paterno hey!

    Areas that cash flow well (of course this is contingent on your down payment when financing the home) are states in the Midwest and Southeast of the country - reasonable purchase prices, great home appreciation, great rental appreciation and growing work forces! I can send some turnkey properties your way to have a look if you'd like.

    Best of luck,

    Melissa Johnsen, Investment Strategist

    Rent to Retirement

  • Melissa Johnsen
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    Joe S.
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    Joe S.
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    Replied

    A couple of post above it appears somebody used AI to write a book. 📖 
  • Joe S.
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    Marcus Auerbach
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    Marcus Auerbach
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    Quote from @Joe S.:

    A couple of post above it appears somebody used AI to write a book. 📖 

     Yeah, but if so, then it was a damn good prompt :-)

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    Marcus Auerbach
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    Marcus Auerbach
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    Replied

    "Scooping up" is not the right term. We have a chronic housing shortage in Milwaukee, both for rent and for sale. And super low inventory means no discounts, even for properties in rough shape. Someone will pay list.

    If you pick a market, the best thing would be to move there. But at the very least really learn that market. Investing remote is harder than you might think. You will always compete with locals, but with one hand tied to your back.

    Agree with @Eric Fernwood's post- which BTW he always puts that much thought and work into his posts! Respect.

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    Jimmy Lieu
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    Jimmy Lieu
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    Quote from @Frankie Paterno:

    Good Morning,

    What areas are still cashflowing and I can scoop up and hold? Is Ohio/Indiana/arkansas over-saturated now? Looking to network with realtors and investors in the game! Cash ready. 


    Hi Frankie! I invest in Columbus OH and I'm still seeing deals here around $120k-$180k that have positive cash flow. Great macroeconomics - lots of population growth, job growth, and companies choosing to move and develop here. And because of this, there is strong rental demand. Happy to connect and answer any questions you may have.

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    Nicholas L.
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    Nicholas L.
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    @Frankie Paterno

    nowhere.  and it's not that anywhere is "saturated," it's that prices AND rates are high.

    or as @Travis Timmons said - a creative niche that you excel in will cashflow.  but those are higher effort / higher risk.

    i'd pick a market within a couple hours of you and really learn it.  otherwise as @Marcus Auerbach said - you'll be up against locals and the best deals will never get to you.

  • Nicholas L.
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    Isaura Orellana
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    Isaura Orellana
    Pro Member
    • Specialist
    • DETROIT
    Replied
    Quote from @Frankie Paterno:

    Good Morning,

    What areas are still cashflowing and I can scoop up and hold? Is Ohio/Indiana/arkansas over-saturated now? Looking to network with realtors and investors in the game! Cash ready. 

    Hi Frankie, If your looking for the biggest bang for your buck there’s strong section 8 government guaranteed Cash Flow all over Detroit. Plus many of the homes, duplexes, triplexes and Quads are monster gorgeous brick properties that dwarf most of the other homes offered in some of these other cash flowing states. Just make certain to build a relationship with a reputable turnkey operation who treats the city like it’s there own backyard, specializes in section 8 and has in-house management as well as day in and day out boots on the ground crews, etc. If you would like to discuss more feel free to reach out. Cheers!
  • Isaura Orellana
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    Regina Blake
    • Realtor
    • Cleveland, OH
    181
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    Regina Blake
    • Realtor
    • Cleveland, OH
    Replied

    Hi, yes Ohio is definitely a good place to invest in real estate. People/my clients from all over the world would agree but, if you have any questions, please free to reach out. Best Wishes!

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    James Wise#1 Classifieds Contributor
    • Real Estate Broker
    • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH
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    James Wise#1 Classifieds Contributor
    • Real Estate Broker
    • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH
    Replied
    Quote from @Frankie Paterno:

    Good Morning,

    What areas are still cashflowing and I can scoop up and hold? Is Ohio/Indiana/arkansas over-saturated now? Looking to network with realtors and investors in the game! Cash ready. 


     Whole Midwest bro. Whole Midwest. Throw a dart at a map.