What is the most under realized opportunity in real estate today?

147 Replies

I receive a lot of messages and colleague requests and I don't have time to even open them. If anyone has any questions it is better to ask them on a thread. I have a fetish about listening to messages on my phone and never listened to one message. My voice message tells callers not to leave a message. I never read text messages unless it is one of those codes, or unless I specifically request something. Sorry!

@Jack Orthman what market are you in where the homes aren’t worth more than they were in 2004? It’s definitely not mine. My current home is worth nearly double what I bought it for in 2010, with no forced appreciation.

Also, are you taking appreciation of the homes into account or just cash flow? I could be wrong but I was under the impression that multi family didn’t appreciate as fast.

Originally posted by @Justin Manges :

@Jack Orthman what market are you in where the homes aren’t worth more than they were in 2004? It’s definitely not mine. My current home is worth nearly double what I bought it for in 2010, with no forced appreciation.

Also, are you taking appreciation of the homes into account or just cash flow? I could be wrong but I was under the impression that multi family didn’t appreciate as fast.

If you go back and read my post, I said something like, 1200 sq ft homes in Torrance California in about 2001 were selling for $900k to $1.2 million. I just checked listings on Zillow and here is a 1200 sq ft home in a very nice middle income area in Torrance California about 1-1/2 miles from the courthouse that just sold for $885,000. I did see several 1500 to 17 sq ft homes and many were selling for about $1.05 million, but that is a zero increase since 2001.

You need to go back through some of my very recent posts and multi-unit properties increase no less than 800% since 2001 and the 2008 to 2010 crash did not affect multi-unit properties in any way. In fact, the value of multi-unit properties increased because so many people lost their homes and needed an apartment to move into.

I had a, can I use the word 'plethora' of applicants who told me their b.s. sob stories regarding why they let their homes go into foreclosure only because their loans were upside down. Deep inside, I silently called these people thieves because they had signed loans, used investors' money to get into those homes and these people still had the same jobs and the same income. How do I know? Because they filled out credit applications that divulged that information.

Owning multi-unit properties was bulletproof during the 2008 to 2010 crash and that is the beauty of owning multi-units.

The people who got hit hard during the 2008 to 2010 crash was definitely the investors who dealt with single family homes. If you wanted to sell a single family home for some reason like you wanted to retire, or your job relocated and you wanted to move to another state, then you were screwed.

If you was a house flipper who owned several homes just before the market crash and the flipper paid a good price for those homes then there was no way most flippers could come even close to breaking even and they were screwed.

If someone had a house in probate and it was going to be inherited, or sold then those recipients were screwed out of no less than 30% of the cash value of those properties.

There was none of those problems with multi-unit properties. If I decided to sell one of my apartment buildings the prices were actually rising because a high percent of single family investors woke up when they saw that the housing crisis did not affect multi-unit properties and the prices of multi-unit properties was actually rising.

Maybe, I could write a 350-page book about the advantages for investing in multi-unit properties.

I completely agree Frank.  Once inflation gets out of control and it forces the FED to finally raise rates these hedge funds will have other alternative investments to generate better yield with less risk than SFH. Plus they will have a lot equity built up so the ROE will be low...i expect them to cut bait in couple years and flood the market.

Originally posted by @Frank Wong :

Big hedge funds are moving into the SFR market to take on a new asset class. The increase in rents the last 10yrs and the ease of access to liquidity has made this a viable option now. I think the real reason is the decline of the dollar and yields from bonds.

10yr bonds are yielding 1.23% and 30yr bond 1.895% today. The yields are not high enough to keep up with inflation but more importantly it's not enough to keep up with returns needed to fund US pensions.  Bonds are suppose to be the safest investment from a risk perspective. If the yields are not enough and are declining what is safe and will yield more??? Real Estate. Multi-family was traditionally the vehicle but now the demand has increased to include SFRs. 

Real Estate is becoming the new US Bond. Something that is safer than equities but will yield more than bonds. The current US bond market is $46trillion (per wikipedia).  All this money will start to funnel into other assets.  I think the flight to safety is residential real estate. 

Originally posted by @Jack Orthman :
Originally posted by @Justin Manges:

@Jack Orthman what market are you in where the homes aren’t worth more than they were in 2004? It’s definitely not mine. My current home is worth nearly double what I bought it for in 2010, with no forced appreciation.

Also, are you taking appreciation of the homes into account or just cash flow? I could be wrong but I was under the impression that multi family didn’t appreciate as fast.

If you go back and read my post, I said something like, 1200 sq ft homes in Torrance California in about 2001 were selling for $900k to $1.2 million. I just checked listings on Zillow and here is a 1200 sq ft home in a very nice middle income area in Torrance California about 1-1/2 miles from the courthouse that just sold for $885,000. I did see several 1500 to 17 sq ft homes and many were selling for about $1.05 million, but that is a zero increase since 2001.

You need to go back through some of my very recent posts and multi-unit properties increase no less than 800% since 2001 and the 2008 to 2010 crash did not affect multi-unit properties in any way. In fact, the value of multi-unit properties increased because so many people lost their homes and needed an apartment to move into.

I had a, can I use the word 'plethora' of applicants who told me their b.s. sob stories regarding why they let their homes go into foreclosure only because their loans were upside down. Deep inside, I silently called these people thieves because they had signed loans, used investors' money to get into those homes and these people still had the same jobs and the same income. How do I know? Because they filled out credit applications that divulged that information.

Owning multi-unit properties was bulletproof during the 2008 to 2010 crash and that is the beauty of owning multi-units.

The people who got hit hard during the 2008 to 2010 crash was definitely the investors who dealt with single family homes. If you wanted to sell a single family home for some reason like you wanted to retire, or your job relocated and you wanted to move to another state, then you were screwed.

If you was a house flipper who owned several homes just before the market crash and the flipper paid a good price for those homes then there was no way most flippers could come even close to breaking even and they were screwed.

If someone had a house in probate and it was going to be inherited, or sold then those recipients were screwed out of no less than 30% of the cash value of those properties.

There was none of those problems with multi-unit properties. If I decided to sell one of my apartment buildings the prices were actually rising because a high percent of single family investors woke up when they saw that the housing crisis did not affect multi-unit properties and the prices of multi-unit properties was actually rising.

Maybe, I could write a 350-page book about the advantages for investing in multi-unit properties.

The median sfr in Torrance was not  anywhere near 900k or 1.1mil in 2001. Here is last 5 years median for Torrance. Maybe it was a typo. 

 I just picked the first one I saw. This sold for 650k in 2013, listed 12 day ago for 2.9 mil, built in 1998. 

2.9 mil

I still think value add multifamily offers strong opportunities for those willing to put in the work. I agree that pricing on many deals don't make sense, but there are certainly opportunities out there. 

We've purchased 17 units in Los Angeles thus far in 2021, and each of these deals hits the same sort of return criteria we put in place several years back. Now, the flip side of this is we look at a LOT of deals before finding a few that makes sense. I hear from friends doing this in other markets that the same holds true out of state.  

Originally posted by @Jack Orthman :

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

Originally posted by @Matt R. :
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Justin Manges:

@Jack Orthman what market are you in where the homes aren’t worth more than they were in 2004? It’s definitely not mine. My current home is worth nearly double what I bought it for in 2010, with no forced appreciation.

Also, are you taking appreciation of the homes into account or just cash flow? I could be wrong but I was under the impression that multi family didn’t appreciate as fast.

If you go back and read my post, I said something like, 1200 sq ft homes in Torrance California in about 2001 were selling for $900k to $1.2 million. I just checked listings on Zillow and here is a 1200 sq ft home in a very nice middle income area in Torrance California about 1-1/2 miles from the courthouse that just sold for $885,000. I did see several 1500 to 17 sq ft homes and many were selling for about $1.05 million, but that is a zero increase since 2001.

You need to go back through some of my very recent posts and multi-unit properties increase no less than 800% since 2001 and the 2008 to 2010 crash did not affect multi-unit properties in any way. In fact, the value of multi-unit properties increased because so many people lost their homes and needed an apartment to move into.

I had a, can I use the word 'plethora' of applicants who told me their b.s. sob stories regarding why they let their homes go into foreclosure only because their loans were upside down. Deep inside, I silently called these people thieves because they had signed loans, used investors' money to get into those homes and these people still had the same jobs and the same income. How do I know? Because they filled out credit applications that divulged that information.

Owning multi-unit properties was bulletproof during the 2008 to 2010 crash and that is the beauty of owning multi-units.

The people who got hit hard during the 2008 to 2010 crash was definitely the investors who dealt with single family homes. If you wanted to sell a single family home for some reason like you wanted to retire, or your job relocated and you wanted to move to another state, then you were screwed.

If you was a house flipper who owned several homes just before the market crash and the flipper paid a good price for those homes then there was no way most flippers could come even close to breaking even and they were screwed.

If someone had a house in probate and it was going to be inherited, or sold then those recipients were screwed out of no less than 30% of the cash value of those properties.

There was none of those problems with multi-unit properties. If I decided to sell one of my apartment buildings the prices were actually rising because a high percent of single family investors woke up when they saw that the housing crisis did not affect multi-unit properties and the prices of multi-unit properties was actually rising.

Maybe, I could write a 350-page book about the advantages for investing in multi-unit properties.

The median sfr in Torrance was not  anywhere near 900k or 1.1mil in 2001. Here is last 5 years median for Torrance. Maybe it was a typo. 

 I just picked the first one I saw. This sold for 650k in 2013, listed 12 day ago for 2.9 mil, built in 1998. 

2.9 mil

I was not referring to the median price for California. I was referring to the prices for homes in the cluster of homes across the street from the Torrance Courthouse that were selling for more than $900k to maybe $1.1 million in 2001 and the prices for those homes are actually less today. I looked for a historical chart and can find charts that only go back to 2006. Just because prices rose in the past 3, 4, or 5 years that does not prove they increased about 2001 prices. They kept increasing in value to the 2008 to 2010 crash and most homes in that area are selling for less than before 2001. The following chart states the value of this house is $839,000 to $975,000. That price is really pathetic compared to what they used to sell for.

Originally posted by @Tony Kim :
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

Judging by your profile the appearance of your age in your profile picture and your stating you have 5 years experience in the real estate business you are not qualified to make a guess in regards to how much properties were selling for in the cluster of homes across the street from the courthouse. I've been purchasing real estate in Torrance since 1973, more than 48 years. I am a plumbing repair contractor and I installed new water piping , drains and sewers in about 20% of all the homes in the city of Torrance because I started my business in the city of Torrance in 1973 from a rented apartment at 17575 Yukon Avenue APT E. 

Attached, is an image showing a property for sale at 911 Hickory Avenue in the cluster of homes across from the Torrance courthouse. As I stated, houses were selling for this price or more back in 2001. The houses continued to increase in price until 2008 when the market crashed and the prices are either equal to, or a little less than their 2001 prices and this indicates that housing prices did not keep up with multi-unit properties that increased in value by 400% to 800%.

Even if I am a little wrong you will not find a significant difference in my claim e.g. it is not significant if those 1200 sw ft houses were selling for $750,000 to $850,000. Even if that is true their increase in value is nothing compared to multi-units. We need to find some charts, or some proof for actual sales going back to 2001, 2004 (I think I posted), or any date prior to 2008.

I did not median prices in Torrance were $900k to $1 million. I mentioned the average prices near the court house. There were homes in Torrance in the $1.5 to maybe the $2 million range and I feel confident when I say that many, or a nojority of the homes have not recovered to 2001 prices, or even if they did increase to above 2001 prices the increase is insignificant.

Originally posted by @Tony Kim :
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

I concede! After doing a lot of research, the statements I made are not correct and it appears that property values increased by about 30% to 50% since 2001. At least according to what I see. I looked at a history of the Trust Deeds for homes near the Torrance courthouse and I could not find any homes that sold for near $1 million and every home I looked at appeared to have an increase in value of 30% to 50% since 2001.

I use a propertyradar.com to do a lot of research for properties and the amount of information you can get from this website is amazing. I showed what the website does to two brokers and they both subscribed to it, immediately, because the website give more information faster than the websites licensed brokers use and the cost is only $79 per month.

The website gives the name of the current owner of the property, date and price paid, a history of past owners, list of all the Trust Deeds, names of lenders and all you need to do is click on a button to get copies of trust deeds, liens, and whatever.

I don't want to spend a lot of time, but the search capabilities is super amazing and you will never find a website that can do what propertyradar.com does. I suggest anyone serious about investing should have a good look at this website. I use it for my plumbing and construction business every day because before I sign a contract with a customer I want to make sure the person signing is the actual owner of the property and then I use it all the time to check the spelling of their names.

For searching for houses to flip the search capabilities is unbelievable and there are even searches where you can pull up a list of all the houses one flipper flips. So, if you sell services to flippers this is the website you need. If you flip houses this website gives you a good idea exactly how well other flippers are doing because it tells you the price flippers paid and how much they sold the houses for. If you want to buy foreclosures then this is the website to use. It will search for foreclosures with the specifics you want, but I use auction.com and one other website to find foreclosures and I use propertyradar.com to get the current owner's name, their loan balance and the best comp to know the ARV.

I see where it says I was mentioned 2 times in the past few hours, but don't see any messages. As stated, you two experts were right and I was wrong about the increase in value in Torrance. I apologize! Sometimes, don't know where my head is at and it is really burned into my brain, for some reason, that homes near the Torrance courthouse were selling for $1 million in 2001 and after checking the history for a few hours last night I cannot find a property that sold for more than about $600k. Sorry!

Originally posted by @Jack Orthman :
Originally posted by @Bob Wilson:

@jack Orthman No sir, not a trick question. 

You told @Joe S. "....changing your business model and mindset", to which I agree.

I didn't purchase a home for 35k, my question was about "investing 35k into a home". I invest 35k worth of furniture, set-up cost, supplies, etc, and then I allow professionals to rent the "furnished" home from me for $6,500-$7,500/month. I have 0 vacancy, and average stay is 5 months. 2 weeks prior to tenant leaving, I advertise the unit again, and within 4-5 days, we have a new professional who has signed a contract for that 6,500-7,500 range.

Why? Because I spent 2 years "selling" these companies the value of our company, and now the leads are RIDICULOUS! We can't keep up with demand. But that's not the point.

The point is, when you tell someone to change their mindset, and business model, I challenge you the same. Real estate can be accomplished in more ways then "multi-family", and I would argue, more profitable ways as well.

The larger building you purchase, the more funds you've spent. 

On the other end, 1 SFU house = 35k investment, period, and the "profit" (not income) is $1,500/monthly. I haven't seen anything close - yet. But I will continue to challenge myself to find the next best thing :)

Your business model, or market niche sounds great. I commend you for your persistence to convince other companies. I am guessing that you mean it took two years to convince other property owners? If I am correct, you are renting homes from other property owners, putting your furniture in those homes and you are renting the homes to people like nurses and doctors who stay for for up to 5 months and they pay $6500 to $7500 per month.  

I went to a REIA club about 3 or 4 years ago where they brought in one of those gurus who sell their secrets, books and videos pertaining to exactly what you described, if I am correct, Virtually, I never purchase those types of courses, but I did pay $900 for this course and it described exactly what you described.

I got all excited and even wrote about the concept on another forum telling people that they didn't have to actually purchase property and could use other people's property, buy some furniture, jack up the rent and make a profit.

I will give you credit for following through. As for challenging me to change my business model to do the same, I'm all ears and have no problem with that, I suppose all I need to do is furnish some of the units I already own and see if people are willing to pay a significant amount more for the rent.

I tried doing what was in my $900 course and there was two snags I ran into. One was that there was a significant cost to make the units ADA compliant because I would have to make doorways and bathrooms larger for wheel chairs and the other was I tried to contact the list of agencies provided with the course and I hit a dead end on that after sending letters written exactly like a template provided with the course and I never received one response. So, when you challenge  me to change my business model I am exactly the type person who will re-write my business model to add to it and do what you do providing I can learn exactly what you are doing and I have to feel very confident before I commit to spending $35,000.

What you are doing is sort of a market niche, your arena and now your forte. I need a lot more information and have absolutely with adding one more arm reaching out to increase my profits. Who knows? Two of my brats just left for colleges in Columbus Ohio and Fairbanks Alaska and I don't have a very good feeling about their liking the universities they are going to. Especially my daughter who went to Alaska where the temperature drops to 50 below zero. I am always thinking it would be nice to have them help or work in the real estate business and what you are doing is a market niche that seems viable and profitable.

Share more information, if you would like to.

Thank you very much.

 If the kid who went to Columbus, Ohio wants to shadow a real estate brokerage here let me know. I would be more than happy to show them how a brokerage that focuses on investment properties operates.

Originally posted by @Remington Lyman :
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Bob Wilson:

@jack Orthman No sir, not a trick question. 

You told @Joe S. "....changing your business model and mindset", to which I agree.


 If the kid who went to Columbus, Ohio wants to shadow a real estate brokerage here let me know. I would be more than happy to show them how a brokerage that focuses on investment properties operates.

Thank you very much. I'm planning on going to Columbus as soon as my sciatica pain goes away. I hope does? I will contact you.

Thank you very much.

Originally posted by @Jack Orthman :
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Justin Manges:

@Jack Orthman what market are you in where the homes aren’t worth more than they were in 2004? It’s definitely not mine. My current home is worth nearly double what I bought it for in 2010, with no forced appreciation.

Also, are you taking appreciation of the homes into account or just cash flow? I could be wrong but I was under the impression that multi family didn’t appreciate as fast.

If you go back and read my post, I said something like, 1200 sq ft homes in Torrance California in about 2001 were selling for $900k to $1.2 million. I just checked listings on Zillow and here is a 1200 sq ft home in a very nice middle income area in Torrance California about 1-1/2 miles from the courthouse that just sold for $885,000. I did see several 1500 to 17 sq ft homes and many were selling for about $1.05 million, but that is a zero increase since 2001.

You need to go back through some of my very recent posts and multi-unit properties increase no less than 800% since 2001 and the 2008 to 2010 crash did not affect multi-unit properties in any way. In fact, the value of multi-unit properties increased because so many people lost their homes and needed an apartment to move into.

I had a, can I use the word 'plethora' of applicants who told me their b.s. sob stories regarding why they let their homes go into foreclosure only because their loans were upside down. Deep inside, I silently called these people thieves because they had signed loans, used investors' money to get into those homes and these people still had the same jobs and the same income. How do I know? Because they filled out credit applications that divulged that information.

Owning multi-unit properties was bulletproof during the 2008 to 2010 crash and that is the beauty of owning multi-units.

The people who got hit hard during the 2008 to 2010 crash was definitely the investors who dealt with single family homes. If you wanted to sell a single family home for some reason like you wanted to retire, or your job relocated and you wanted to move to another state, then you were screwed.

If you was a house flipper who owned several homes just before the market crash and the flipper paid a good price for those homes then there was no way most flippers could come even close to breaking even and they were screwed.

If someone had a house in probate and it was going to be inherited, or sold then those recipients were screwed out of no less than 30% of the cash value of those properties.

There was none of those problems with multi-unit properties. If I decided to sell one of my apartment buildings the prices were actually rising because a high percent of single family investors woke up when they saw that the housing crisis did not affect multi-unit properties and the prices of multi-unit properties was actually rising.

Maybe, I could write a 350-page book about the advantages for investing in multi-unit properties.

The median sfr in Torrance was not  anywhere near 900k or 1.1mil in 2001. Here is last 5 years median for Torrance. Maybe it was a typo. 

 I just picked the first one I saw. This sold for 650k in 2013, listed 12 day ago for 2.9 mil, built in 1998. 

2.9 mil

I was not referring to the median price for California. I was referring to the prices for homes in the cluster of homes across the street from the Torrance Courthouse that were selling for more than $900k to maybe $1.1 million in 2001 and the prices for those homes are actually less today. I looked for a historical chart and can find charts that only go back to 2006. Just because prices rose in the past 3, 4, or 5 years that does not prove they increased about 2001 prices. They kept increasing in value to the 2008 to 2010 crash and most homes in that area are selling for less than before 2001. The following chart states the value of this house is $839,000 to $975,000. That price is really pathetic compared to what they used to sell for.

That pic was median for Torrance, I think all zips combined. I guess we will have agree to disagree.

I stand by 900k was not close to 2001 median Torrance, especially north and east. 2001 was likely near or sub 450k and in west area of Torrance those are north of 1 mil 1200 sqft today. There is one on zillow right now, sold 350k 2000, 1.1 mil list. 1200 sqft, however this is the lowest I have seen inventory to check these histories easily. 

party on. 

Updated 3 months ago

Thats all zips and all props combined, including studio condos in borderline zip, decent sfr would be significantly higher.

Originally posted by @Matt R. :
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Justin Manges:

@Jack Orthman what market are you in where the homes aren’t worth more than they were in 2004? It’s definitely not mine. My current home is worth nearly double what I bought it for in 2010, with no forced appreciation.

Also, are you taking appreciation of the homes into account or just cash flow? I could be wrong but I was under the impression that multi family didn’t appreciate as fast.

If you go back and read my post, I said something like, 1200 sq ft homes in Torrance California in about 2001 were selling for $900k to $1.2 million. I just checked listings on Zillow and here is a 1200 sq ft home in a very nice middle income area in Torrance California about 1-1/2 miles from the courthouse that just sold for $885,000. I did see several 1500 to 17 sq ft homes and many were selling for about $1.05 million, but that is a zero increase since 2001.

You need to go back through some of my very recent posts and multi-unit properties increase no less than 800% since 2001 and the 2008 to 2010 crash did not affect multi-unit properties in any way. In fact, the value of multi-unit properties increased because so many people lost their homes and needed an apartment to move into.

I had a, can I use the word 'plethora' of applicants who told me their b.s. sob stories regarding why they let their homes go into foreclosure only because their loans were upside down. Deep inside, I silently called these people thieves because they had signed loans, used investors' money to get into those homes and these people still had the same jobs and the same income. How do I know? Because they filled out credit applications that divulged that information.

Owning multi-unit properties was bulletproof during the 2008 to 2010 crash and that is the beauty of owning multi-units.

The people who got hit hard during the 2008 to 2010 crash was definitely the investors who dealt with single family homes. If you wanted to sell a single family home for some reason like you wanted to retire, or your job relocated and you wanted to move to another state, then you were screwed.

If you was a house flipper who owned several homes just before the market crash and the flipper paid a good price for those homes then there was no way most flippers could come even close to breaking even and they were screwed.

If someone had a house in probate and it was going to be inherited, or sold then those recipients were screwed out of no less than 30% of the cash value of those properties.

There was none of those problems with multi-unit properties. If I decided to sell one of my apartment buildings the prices were actually rising because a high percent of single family investors woke up when they saw that the housing crisis did not affect multi-unit properties and the prices of multi-unit properties was actually rising.

Maybe, I could write a 350-page book about the advantages for investing in multi-unit properties.

The median sfr in Torrance was not  anywhere near 900k or 1.1mil in 2001. Here is last 5 years median for Torrance. Maybe it was a typo. 

 I just picked the first one I saw. This sold for 650k in 2013, listed 12 day ago for 2.9 mil, built in 1998. 

2.9 mil

I was not referring to the median price for California. I was referring to the prices for homes in the cluster of homes across the street from the Torrance Courthouse that were selling for more than $900k to maybe $1.1 million in 2001 and the prices for those homes are actually less today. I looked for a historical chart and can find charts that only go back to 2006. Just because prices rose in the past 3, 4, or 5 years that does not prove they increased about 2001 prices. They kept increasing in value to the 2008 to 2010 crash and most homes in that area are selling for less than before 2001. The following chart states the value of this house is $839,000 to $975,000. That price is really pathetic compared to what they used to sell for.

That pic was median for Torrance, I think all zips combined. I guess we will have agree to disagree.

I stand by 900k was not close to 2001 median Torrance, especially north and east. 2001 was likely near or sub 450k and in west area of Torrance those are north of 1 mil 1200 sqft today. There is one on zillow right now, sold 350k 2000, 1.1 mil list. 1200 sqft, however this is the lowest I have seen inventory to check these histories easily. 

party on. 

No! I raised my white flag and apologized two times. You are right! I am wrong. I spent several hours last night searching through sales for Torrance going back to 2001 and cannot find any properties near the courthouse that sold for near $1 million. I don't know what went wrong with my brain. Even though I found in the records that you are correct I can't get it out of me head thinking I am 100% positive in regards to what I claimed. I remember discussing the price of $1 million many times, but maybe I picked up some bad information from someone, believed and repeated what they said.

You are correct. I apologize!

Originally posted by @Jack Orthman :
Originally posted by @Tony Kim:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

I concede! After doing a lot of research, the statements I made are not correct and it appears that property values increased by about 30% to 50% since 2001. At least according to what I see. I looked at a history of the Trust Deeds for homes near the Torrance courthouse and I could not find any homes that sold for near $1 million and every home I looked at appeared to have an increase in value of 30% to 50% since 2001.

I use a propertyradar.com to do a lot of research for properties and the amount of information you can get from this website is amazing. I showed what the website does to two brokers and they both subscribed to it, immediately, because the website give more information faster than the websites licensed brokers use and the cost is only $79 per month.

The website gives the name of the current owner of the property, date and price paid, a history of past owners, list of all the Trust Deeds, names of lenders and all you need to do is click on a button to get copies of trust deeds, liens, and whatever.

I don't want to spend a lot of time, but the search capabilities is super amazing and you will never find a website that can do what propertyradar.com does. I suggest anyone serious about investing should have a good look at this website. I use it for my plumbing and construction business every day because before I sign a contract with a customer I want to make sure the person signing is the actual owner of the property and then I use it all the time to check the spelling of their names.

For searching for houses to flip the search capabilities is unbelievable and there are even searches where you can pull up a list of all the houses one flipper flips. So, if you sell services to flippers this is the website you need. If you flip houses this website gives you a good idea exactly how well other flippers are doing because it tells you the price flippers paid and how much they sold the houses for. If you want to buy foreclosures then this is the website to use. It will search for foreclosures with the specifics you want, but I use auction.com and one other website to find foreclosures and I use propertyradar.com to get the current owner's name, their loan balance and the best comp to know the ARV.

 Not 30% to 50% either. At least 100% and in the worst area, refinary style. Better areas easily more than 100% min since 2001. This is LA come on now.  Jack remember this is Torrance beach, outstanding schools, some better than PV. 

update its all good Jack, just saw post above, you got a lot of nums to know, understandable. 

Originally posted by @Matt R. :
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Tony Kim:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

I concede! After doing a lot of research, the statements I made are not correct and it appears that property values increased by about 30% to 50% since 2001. At least according to what I see. I looked at a history of the Trust Deeds for homes near the Torrance courthouse and I could not find any homes that sold for near $1 million and every home I looked at appeared to have an increase in value of 30% to 50% since 2001.

I use a propertyradar.com to do a lot of research for properties and the amount of information you can get from this website is amazing. I showed what the website does to two brokers and they both subscribed to it, immediately, because the website give more information faster than the websites licensed brokers use and the cost is only $79 per month.

The website gives the name of the current owner of the property, date and price paid, a history of past owners, list of all the Trust Deeds, names of lenders and all you need to do is click on a button to get copies of trust deeds, liens, and whatever.

I don't want to spend a lot of time, but the search capabilities is super amazing and you will never find a website that can do what propertyradar.com does. I suggest anyone serious about investing should have a good look at this website. I use it for my plumbing and construction business every day because before I sign a contract with a customer I want to make sure the person signing is the actual owner of the property and then I use it all the time to check the spelling of their names.

For searching for houses to flip the search capabilities is unbelievable and there are even searches where you can pull up a list of all the houses one flipper flips. So, if you sell services to flippers this is the website you need. If you flip houses this website gives you a good idea exactly how well other flippers are doing because it tells you the price flippers paid and how much they sold the houses for. If you want to buy foreclosures then this is the website to use. It will search for foreclosures with the specifics you want, but I use auction.com and one other website to find foreclosures and I use propertyradar.com to get the current owner's name, their loan balance and the best comp to know the ARV.

 Not 30% to 50% either. At least 100% and in the worst area, refinary style. Better areas easily more than 100% min since 2001. This is LA come on now.  Jack remember this is Torrance beach, outstanding schools, some better than PV. 

update its all good Jack, just saw post above, you got a lot of nums to know, understandable. 

Agreed. It's all good. I love your posts and love your energy. You certainly do make this forum a more interesting place... You're like the West Coast version of Joe Villeneuve.  i.e., totally opposite strategies, but both very knowledgeable and experienced.

And for the record, both my wife and I are in our 50's and I grew up in the South Bay (Manhattan Beach) and also lived in Torrance for a while. I've been buying and selling real estate for over 20 years :).

Originally posted by @Tony Kim :
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Tony Kim:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

I concede! After doing a lot of research, the statements I made are not correct and it appears that property values increased by about 30% to 50% since 2001. At least according to what I see. I looked at a history of the Trust Deeds for homes near the Torrance courthouse and I could not find any homes that sold for near $1 million and every home I looked at appeared to have an increase in value of 30% to 50% since 2001.

I use a propertyradar.com to do a lot of research for properties and the amount of information you can get from this website is amazing. I showed what the website does to two brokers and they both subscribed to it, immediately, because the website give more information faster than the websites licensed brokers use and the cost is only $79 per month.

The website gives the name of the current owner of the property, date and price paid, a history of past owners, list of all the Trust Deeds, names of lenders and all you need to do is click on a button to get copies of trust deeds, liens, and whatever.

I don't want to spend a lot of time, but the search capabilities is super amazing and you will never find a website that can do what propertyradar.com does. I suggest anyone serious about investing should have a good look at this website. I use it for my plumbing and construction business every day because before I sign a contract with a customer I want to make sure the person signing is the actual owner of the property and then I use it all the time to check the spelling of their names.

For searching for houses to flip the search capabilities is unbelievable and there are even searches where you can pull up a list of all the houses one flipper flips. So, if you sell services to flippers this is the website you need. If you flip houses this website gives you a good idea exactly how well other flippers are doing because it tells you the price flippers paid and how much they sold the houses for. If you want to buy foreclosures then this is the website to use. It will search for foreclosures with the specifics you want, but I use auction.com and one other website to find foreclosures and I use propertyradar.com to get the current owner's name, their loan balance and the best comp to know the ARV.

 Not 30% to 50% either. At least 100% and in the worst area, refinary style. Better areas easily more than 100% min since 2001. This is LA come on now.  Jack remember this is Torrance beach, outstanding schools, some better than PV. 

update its all good Jack, just saw post above, you got a lot of nums to know, understandable. 

Agreed. It's all good. I love your posts and love your energy. You certainly do make this forum a more interesting place... You're like the West Coast version of Joe Villeneuve.  i.e., totally opposite strategies, but both very knowledgeable and experienced.

And for the record, both my wife and I are in our 50's and I grew up in the South Bay (Manhattan Beach) and also lived in Torrance for a while. I've been buying and selling real estate for over 20 years :).

Aw thanks. That's funny, Joes great. 

Originally posted by @Tony Kim :
Originally posted by @Matt R.:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:
Originally posted by @Tony Kim:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

I concede! After doing a lot of research, the statements I made are not correct and it appears that property values increased by about 30% to 50% since 2001. At least according to what I see. I looked at a history of the Trust Deeds for homes near the Torrance courthouse and I could not find any homes that sold for near $1 million and every home I looked at appeared to have an increase in value of 30% to 50% since 2001.

I use a propertyradar.com to do a lot of research for properties and the amount of information you can get from this website is amazing. I showed what the website does to two brokers and they both subscribed to it, immediately, because the website give more information faster than the websites licensed brokers use and the cost is only $79 per month.

The website gives the name of the current owner of the property, date and price paid, a history of past owners, list of all the Trust Deeds, names of lenders and all you need to do is click on a button to get copies of trust deeds, liens, and whatever.

I don't want to spend a lot of time, but the search capabilities is super amazing and you will never find a website that can do what propertyradar.com does. I suggest anyone serious about investing should have a good look at this website. I use it for my plumbing and construction business every day because before I sign a contract with a customer I want to make sure the person signing is the actual owner of the property and then I use it all the time to check the spelling of their names.

For searching for houses to flip the search capabilities is unbelievable and there are even searches where you can pull up a list of all the houses one flipper flips. So, if you sell services to flippers this is the website you need. If you flip houses this website gives you a good idea exactly how well other flippers are doing because it tells you the price flippers paid and how much they sold the houses for. If you want to buy foreclosures then this is the website to use. It will search for foreclosures with the specifics you want, but I use auction.com and one other website to find foreclosures and I use propertyradar.com to get the current owner's name, their loan balance and the best comp to know the ARV.

 Not 30% to 50% either. At least 100% and in the worst area, refinary style. Better areas easily more than 100% min since 2001. This is LA come on now.  Jack remember this is Torrance beach, outstanding schools, some better than PV. 

update its all good Jack, just saw post above, you got a lot of nums to know, understandable. 

Agreed. It's all good. I love your posts and love your energy. You certainly do make this forum a more interesting place... You're like the West Coast version of Joe Villeneuve.  i.e., totally opposite strategies, but both very knowledgeable and experienced.

And for the record, both my wife and I are in our 50's and I grew up in the South Bay (Manhattan Beach) and also lived in Torrance for a while. I've been buying and selling real estate for over 20 years :).

 I tried to connect and bp system glitch. I take it you went to Mira Costa perhaps. I was at Rolling Hills ( same age)  Then for stint on Esplanade and Ave B. Have you checked what you can do for sub 1.5 in RPV? Seems like a great consolation prize in value overall. Good luck with your search! 

Originally posted by @Jack Orthman :
Originally posted by @Tony Kim:
Originally posted by @Jack Orthman:

Forgot to put the picture of the house that just sold in Torrance California

 Come one Jack, you and I both know that this property is hardly representative of Torrance. This location is in one of the worst parts of Torrance and if were located near the courthouse it would be well over a million. Anywhere past Anza and we'd be talking 1.5M. I know this because my wife have been combing the neighborhood looking for a new house to buy.

Also, we both know that prices have shot up tremendously since 2001. I don't think anyone here is naive enough to believe Torrance SFR prices are the same from 21 years ago.

I concede! After doing a lot of research, the statements I made are not correct and it appears that property values increased by about 30% to 50% since 2001. At least according to what I see. I looked at a history of the Trust Deeds for homes near the Torrance courthouse and I could not find any homes that sold for near $1 million and every home I looked at appeared to have an increase in value of 30% to 50% since 2001.

I use a propertyradar.com to do a lot of research for properties and the amount of information you can get from this website is amazing. I showed what the website does to two brokers and they both subscribed to it, immediately, because the website give more information faster than the websites licensed brokers use and the cost is only $79 per month.

The website gives the name of the current owner of the property, date and price paid, a history of past owners, list of all the Trust Deeds, names of lenders and all you need to do is click on a button to get copies of trust deeds, liens, and whatever.

I don't want to spend a lot of time, but the search capabilities is super amazing and you will never find a website that can do what propertyradar.com does. I suggest anyone serious about investing should have a good look at this website. I use it for my plumbing and construction business every day because before I sign a contract with a customer I want to make sure the person signing is the actual owner of the property and then I use it all the time to check the spelling of their names.

For searching for houses to flip the search capabilities is unbelievable and there are even searches where you can pull up a list of all the houses one flipper flips. So, if you sell services to flippers this is the website you need. If you flip houses this website gives you a good idea exactly how well other flippers are doing because it tells you the price flippers paid and how much they sold the houses for. If you want to buy foreclosures then this is the website to use. It will search for foreclosures with the specifics you want, but I use auction.com and one other website to find foreclosures and I use propertyradar.com to get the current owner's name, their loan balance and the best comp to know the ARV.

Per their web-site -

Property radar has email/phone number data too Jack?

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