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Brandon Elliott
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BEST AREAS FOR STR's!?!?!?

Brandon Elliott
  • Realtor
  • Erie Co
Posted Aug 8 2022, 08:51

I have a question for my fellow STR specialists. First thought a story! :-)I recently traveled to Omaha NE and found out the Airbnb I was staying at was clearing $50K/ year!!! (It was a SFH with 4beds and 2 baths). I live in CO and have a friend whom is STR'ing a triplex and is clearing $50K! A triplex vs a SFH!!!! That is Crazy to me how big of a difference between the two properties but getting essentially the same dollar return. :-D

With that context my question is, where are you invested in and what kind of ROI are you getting from your investment (in dollars).

(If you are comfortable please comment answers to these questions below).

- Style of home.

- The ROI in dollar value.

- The city or area where your property is located.

- How you chose that location and what research you did before buying.

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Melissa Wesling
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Melissa Wesling
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Replied Sep 23 2022, 09:03

My Michigan properties did better than my Florida property and that can be for a variety of reasons. I'll reach out to you and would be happy to look into different STR markets.

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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  • Erie Co
Replied Sep 26 2022, 09:41
Quote from @Rob Crum:

@Mya Toohey

I'd welcome any STR you're seeing on the market hitting these numbers!


 Lol fair!! haha. That's why I am asking here though. Curious to see if that's common or if maybe I just happened to stumble into an expectational market.

Do you have any STR's?

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 09:42
Quote from @Melissa Wesling:

My Michigan properties did better than my Florida property and that can be for a variety of reasons. I'll reach out to you and would be happy to look into different STR markets.


 Awesome! Shot you a message! :-)

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 09:46
Quote from @William Beck:

I'll copy / paste from a former thread I replied to a year and a half ago with some updates.

I answered this question and analyzed vacation rentals almost every day for a few years in my former job. Based on that experience I would consider the following places to look.

My personal top picks:
top 3 investor markets - Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg, TN; Poconos, PA; Branson MO (I own here and I'm a realtor here). 

Then the rest:

Hot Springs, AR.
Broken Bow, OK 
Destin, FL
Cape Coral, FL.
Blue Ridge, GA.
Phoenix Metro, AZ

I personally plan to own in the above mentioned areas

Honorable Mentions:

Hilton Head, SC

Myrtle Beach, SC

Massanutten, VA

Killington or Southern, VT by ski areas

Granby/Grand Lake, CO

Lake Travis or Lake Granbury TX

Lake Havasu City

Cocoa Beach, FL

Traverse City, MI

Black Hills, SD

Island Park, ID


 Well thank you Will!!! I'm curious, what was your old job?!? lol

I'll add those to my investment market possibilities! 

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William Beck
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  • Branson, MO
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William Beck
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  • Branson, MO
Replied Sep 26 2022, 09:48
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @William Beck:

I'll copy / paste from a former thread I replied to a year and a half ago with some updates.

I answered this question and analyzed vacation rentals almost every day for a few years in my former job. Based on that experience I would consider the following places to look.

My personal top picks:...


I was a Home Buyer Consultant for Vacation Rentals with Evolve Vacation Rental. I consulted thousands of people doing STR's all over the country.

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Collin H.
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Collin H.
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:02
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @Rob Crum:

@Mya Toohey

I'd welcome any STR you're seeing on the market hitting these numbers!


 Lol fair!! haha. That's why I am asking here though. Curious to see if that's common or if maybe I just happened to stumble into an expectational market.

Do you have any STR's?


Any STR's what?

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Collin H.
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Collin H.
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:03
Quote from @William Beck:
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @William Beck:

I'll copy / paste from a former thread I replied to a year and a half ago with some updates.

I answered this question and analyzed vacation rentals almost every day for a few years in my former job. Based on that experience I would consider the following places to look.

My personal top picks:...


I was a Home Buyer Consultant for Vacation Rentals with Evolve Vacation Rental. I consulted thousands of people doing STR's all over the country.


STR's what?

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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  • Erie Co
Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:14
Quote from @Monica Mejia:

Hi Brandon!! So cool to hear, I recently traveled to Omaha myself and stayed in an amazing Airbnb - It definitely sparks some great questions like these ^

I personally own/ operate 2 short term rentals in CO. One is an Arvada property that I lease for Airbnb arbitrage and the other is in Westminster which I purchased specifically for Airbnb. These have collectively brought in about $104k in revenue YTD. The legislation in CO differs from county to county so it's super super important that you check what the location ordinances are.

I personally chose those cities because they are STR friendly, only requiring either a permit or license. I initially wanted to be in Denver county but STR's are not allowed unless the intent was for it to be my primary residence, which it was not. For market research I used softwares like AirDNA and Mashvisor to look at average occupancy rates, revenue projections, comps, and market grades. Both Arvada and Westminster are given A's in the Airbnb market.

One thing to note is that seasonality is very normal. In Colorado it is actually a lot less because for example, the "slow" months are considered to be from Dec-March. Within this time frame, my Airbnbs each did about 8-13k/month because of the Skiing season. I got lots of guests who wanted to Ski in the mountains but also be near the city of Denver which meant that Arvada & Westminster were almost like a middle point between the two. Really catering to all types of traffic there(:  Hope this provides a bit more insight!!


 Wow good for you! I'd love to grab coffee if possible and discuss more about your successes and insights! Let's connect! :-)

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:18
Quote from @Collin H.:

The "best place" to invest is highly subjective.  That's like asking where the "best place" is to invest in the stock market.  In real estate, whether it be LTRs, STRS, or commercial, the "best place" is the one you are intimately familiar with.  If you aren't, you are setting yourself up for failure.

I recently talked to someone that got caught up in the craze of buying a Smoky Mountains cabin rental.  They live in CA.  A realtor talked them into one @ $380K, projecting it would do $60K a year.  

We went and looked at it.  It is on a mountain top with zero views.  The exterior is eaten up by carpenter bees.  It needs $50K of work just to be a safe place to stay.  Needs another $50K to look presentable.  Needs a new well dug - water is brown.  Can't reasonably access the house in rain or snow without four wheel drive.  The place will never do more than $30K.  Meanwhile, they bought it in December and it still hasn't rented a single night.  

They're in deep, with no way out.

Know thy market.  Rely on no one to tell you how good the market is.  They probably have ulterior motives.


 Sadly that is common. Well said and thoughtful insight! Thanks for your thoughts!

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:20
Quote from @Greg R.:
Quote from @William Beck:

I'll copy / paste from a former thread I replied to a year and a half ago with some updates.

I answered this question and analyzed vacation rentals almost every day for a few years in my former job. Based on that experience I would consider the following places to look.

My personal top picks:
top 3 investor markets - Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg, TN; Poconos, PA; Branson MO (I own here and I'm a realtor here). 

Then the rest:

Hot Springs, AR.
Broken Bow, OK 
Destin, FL
Cape Coral, FL.
Blue Ridge, GA.
Phoenix Metro, AZ

I personally plan to own in the above mentioned areas

Honorable Mentions:

Hilton Head, SC

Myrtle Beach, SC

Massanutten, VA

Killington or Southern, VT by ski areas

Granby/Grand Lake, CO

Lake Travis or Lake Granbury TX

Lake Havasu City

Cocoa Beach, FL

Traverse City, MI

Black Hills, SD

Island Park, ID

Surprised not to see any CA locations on your list. California has some of the most profitable (both cash flow and appreciation) STRs in the country. 


 Where are you seeing the profitable markets in Cali these days?

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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  • Erie Co
Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:30
Quote from @Jason Kudo:

I own an STR in the Joshua Tree area and it is doing well. We aren't a full year in so I can't give you accurate ROI but tentatively looking at CoC of 12-15%. We do have one of the nicer properties in the area

I have clients doing well in the JT area, Idyllwild, Palm Springs, Bermuda Dunes, and Julian.

With Cotino by Disney and the slew of surf parks coming into the Coachella Valley, this area is being primed for a large uptick in visitors and with Rancho Mirage (where Cotino will be located) being unfriendly to STRs, the surrounding cities that are STR-friendly stand to benefit from this pending uptick.

Saying the whole state is a regulatory minefield is a bit of an exaggeration. Are there regulations? Yes. Can they be navigated successfully? Yes.


 Well said Jason! Thanks for your thoughts! :-)

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James Li
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James Li
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  • Orlando
Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:30

We got 6 STR under our management in the Great Orlando area (Davenport, Kissimmee, and Clermont). To be honest, you would never feel low seasons in the area like Disney/Universal Studios. To our experience, Single Family House with a private pool in a 10-15 min distance from Disney would be a good spot for travelers all over the world, especially UK, Canada people. Layout-wise, the STR with 5-6 bedrooms resulted in the best ROI.

When considering in investing in STR in Orlando area, one thing needs an attention, which is the zoning. HOA really is strict on STR. Make sure the STR be allowed in the community. Also, the community with massive resort-style amenities is a good way to invest (like Champions Gate, Storey Lake, Windsor at Westside, etc) since most of the travelers like to stay in those types of communities. The STR in those communities appeared to rent really high night rate during the high seasons. The drawback is guests tend to be more critic to the STR in those communities.

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Replied Sep 26 2022, 10:37
Quote from @Melissa Wesling:

My Michigan properties did better than my Florida property and that can be for a variety of reasons. I'll reach out to you and would be happy to look into different STR markets.


 Interesting. Where do you own in Michigan and is there much of a shoulder season there?  Any winter bookings?

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 11:22
Quote from @Mike D'Arrigo:
Quote from @Jared Hottle:

Midwest markets scare me a bit as they are not destination type places to stay. However that being said I had a similar experience in Omaha when I travelled there for a weekend. Seems like demand was high and supply was low. Price seemed high for what we got so maybe there is something there. Also, those midtier markets may not be bad as likely the zoning and use ordinances have probably not expanded to address short-term rentals.

Jared, the fact that the Midwest markets are not resort/vaction destinations is a plus in my opinion. Those markets get all of the attention because they are sexier and more glamorous but they are also oversatured and very seasonal in addition to having shorter stays. It doesn't matter why people are visiting. People use STR's for a lot of reasons. Any market that has a high number of visitors can be good for STR. Kansas City as an example gets 35M visitors a year that spend $1.4B on lodging compared to Lahaina, HI which gets 2M or Davenport Fl that gets 5.2M.



 Wow! Great information! Thanks for that insight and stats Mike! 

Curious, where did you get those travel stats?

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Melissa Wesling
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Melissa Wesling
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  • Chicago, IL
Replied Sep 26 2022, 11:26
Quote from @Peter Brown:
Quote from @Melissa Wesling:

My Michigan properties did better than my Florida property and that can be for a variety of reasons. I'll reach out to you and would be happy to look into different STR markets.


 Interesting. Where do you own in Michigan and is there much of a shoulder season there?  Any winter bookings?

Hi Peter! We are in southwest Michigan on Lake Michigan, but there are many shoreline towns along the lake that do well! We used to be a primarily summer season, but we will have weekly or weekend bookings in the spring and fall now and even some winter bookings for family holidays, etc. There are many breweries/wineries, and apple/cherry/blueberry picking in the area that pull in visitors, so there is more to do than then beach :)  
Northern Michigan is great too because there's skiing and winter activities making it more of a year-round destination.  

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 11:28
Quote from @Eric Tullius:

Hey Brandon, I haven't seen it posted on here yet but Philly is a great Real Estate friendly market with a good level of tourism. I think it doesn't quite get the respect it deserves in terms of being a big named destination city in the US. 

My wife and I moved out here from Colorado (Longmont) because how beautiful the seasons are and the endless amount of history in a city like Philadelphia. Its easy access to other travel destinations on the East coast also make it an ideal place to visit and live. 


 Wow, thanks for that insight Eric. And best wishes to your family in your move! :-)

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 11:32
Quote from @Eliott Elias:

Try Killeen Texas, the influx from the military demands short term housing 


 Thanks Eliott! I'll have to look into that area!

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Brandon Elliott
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Brandon Elliott
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 11:34
Quote from @Collin H.:
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @Rob Crum:

@Mya Toohey

I'd welcome any STR you're seeing on the market hitting these numbers!


 Lol fair!! haha. That's why I am asking here though. Curious to see if that's common or if maybe I just happened to stumble into an expectational market.

Do you have any STR's?


Any STR's what?


STR's (Short term rentals)

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Collin H.
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Collin H.
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 11:42
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @Collin H.:
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @Rob Crum:

@Mya Toohey

I'd welcome any STR you're seeing on the market hitting these numbers!


 Lol fair!! haha. That's why I am asking here though. Curious to see if that's common or if maybe I just happened to stumble into an expectational market.

Do you have any STR's?


Any STR's what?


STR's (Short term rentals)


 Gotcha.   STRs.  

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Mike D'Arrigo
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Mike D'Arrigo
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 11:56
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @Mike D'Arrigo:
Quote from @Jared Hottle:

Midwest markets scare me a bit as they are not destination type places to stay. However that being said I had a similar experience in Omaha when I travelled there for a weekend. Seems like demand was high and supply was low. Price seemed high for what we got so maybe there is something there. Also, those midtier markets may not be bad as likely the zoning and use ordinances have probably not expanded to address short-term rentals.

Jared, the fact that the Midwest markets are not resort/vaction destinations is a plus in my opinion. Those markets get all of the attention because they are sexier and more glamorous but they are also oversatured and very seasonal in addition to having shorter stays. It doesn't matter why people are visiting. People use STR's for a lot of reasons. Any market that has a high number of visitors can be good for STR. Kansas City as an example gets 35M visitors a year that spend $1.4B on lodging compared to Lahaina, HI which gets 2M or Davenport Fl that gets 5.2M.



 Wow! Great information! Thanks for that insight and stats Mike! 

Curious, where did you get those travel stats?


That data for Kansas City comes from the Kansas City Convention and Visitors Association now called Visit KC. Most cities will have a visitors bureau where you can get this kind of info. People travel to cities for all different reasons, not just vacation. A good example, 35M people visit Chigaco a year. Chicago isn't known as a ressort/vacation destination but those 35M still need somewhere to stay and more and more people are staying in Airbnb's instead of hotels. Airbnb is a disruptive industry just like Uber has been to the cab business. In my opinion, markets like Kansas City are ideal for STR because of the high number of visitors, it is not oversaturated and unlike resort destinations, it is not real seasonal.

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Tom Casey
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Tom Casey
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  • Chicago, IL
Replied Sep 26 2022, 14:36
Quote from @Mike D'Arrigo:
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @Mike D'Arrigo:
Quote from @Jared Hottle:

Midwest markets scare me a bit as they are not destination type places to stay. However that being said I had a similar experience in Omaha when I travelled there for a weekend. Seems like demand was high and supply was low. Price seemed high for what we got so maybe there is something there. Also, those midtier markets may not be bad as likely the zoning and use ordinances have probably not expanded to address short-term rentals.

Jared, the fact that the Midwest markets are not resort/vaction destinations is a plus in my opinion. Those markets get all of the attention because they are sexier and more glamorous but they are also oversatured and very seasonal in addition to having shorter stays. It doesn't matter why people are visiting. People use STR's for a lot of reasons. Any market that has a high number of visitors can be good for STR. Kansas City as an example gets 35M visitors a year that spend $1.4B on lodging compared to Lahaina, HI which gets 2M or Davenport Fl that gets 5.2M.



 Wow! Great information! Thanks for that insight and stats Mike! 

Curious, where did you get those travel stats?


That data for Kansas City comes from the Kansas City Convention and Visitors Association now called Visit KC. Most cities will have a visitors bureau where you can get this kind of info. People travel to cities for all different reasons, not just vacation. A good example, 35M people visit Chigaco a year. Chicago isn't known as a ressort/vacation destination but those 35M still need somewhere to stay and more and more people are staying in Airbnb's instead of hotels. Airbnb is a disruptive industry just like Uber has been to the cab business. In my opinion, markets like Kansas City are ideal for STR because of the high number of visitors, it is not oversaturated and unlike resort destinations, it is not real seasonal.

 @Mike D'Arrigo Chicago is great on paper for Airbnbs/STRs, but unfortunately the regulations are too restrictive for it to make sense for most investors. Please see my article on considerations for STRs in Chicago here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/... 

Cheers!

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Mike D'Arrigo
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Mike D'Arrigo
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Replied Sep 26 2022, 15:30
Quote from @Tom Casey:
Quote from @Mike D'Arrigo:
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:
Quote from @Mike D'Arrigo:
Quote from @Jared Hottle:

Midwest markets scare me a bit as they are not destination type places to stay. However that being said I had a similar experience in Omaha when I travelled there for a weekend. Seems like demand was high and supply was low. Price seemed high for what we got so maybe there is something there. Also, those midtier markets may not be bad as likely the zoning and use ordinances have probably not expanded to address short-term rentals.

Jared, the fact that the Midwest markets are not resort/vaction destinations is a plus in my opinion. Those markets get all of the attention because they are sexier and more glamorous but they are also oversatured and very seasonal in addition to having shorter stays. It doesn't matter why people are visiting. People use STR's for a lot of reasons. Any market that has a high number of visitors can be good for STR. Kansas City as an example gets 35M visitors a year that spend $1.4B on lodging compared to Lahaina, HI which gets 2M or Davenport Fl that gets 5.2M.



 Wow! Great information! Thanks for that insight and stats Mike! 

Curious, where did you get those travel stats?


That data for Kansas City comes from the Kansas City Convention and Visitors Association now called Visit KC. Most cities will have a visitors bureau where you can get this kind of info. People travel to cities for all different reasons, not just vacation. A good example, 35M people visit Chigaco a year. Chicago isn't known as a ressort/vacation destination but those 35M still need somewhere to stay and more and more people are staying in Airbnb's instead of hotels. Airbnb is a disruptive industry just like Uber has been to the cab business. In my opinion, markets like Kansas City are ideal for STR because of the high number of visitors, it is not oversaturated and unlike resort destinations, it is not real seasonal.

 @Mike D'Arrigo Chicago is great on paper for Airbnbs/STRs, but unfortunately the regulations are too restrictive for it to make sense for most investors. Please see my article on considerations for STRs in Chicago here: https://www.biggerpockets.com/... 

Cheers!


Tom, that's not surprising. I wasn't advocating for Chicago as a STR market. Just using it as an example of a market that has a lot of vistors even though it's not a vacation/resosrt destination.

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Reese Newell
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Reese Newell
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  • Fort Lauderdale, FL
Replied Dec 8 2022, 07:38
Quote from @Ryan Ridge:

I might be biased, but as close to a year-round attraction as possible. Try to avoid markets with off-seasons or at least ones with shorter seasons. There's some seasonality here in Orlando with back-to-school, but it quickly picks up again near the holidays.

I totally get the logic Ryan, from my side if you're getting a similar return w/ a market that is slow for part of the year then you have less moving parts and less work. However, any natural problem that can disrupt that can turn a winner in to a loser quickly. Whereas, your Orlando will just come out ahead and be steady. Currently we own 3 STR in the Fort Lauderdale area ourselves.

When this becomes the case, we want to build out Risk Models with our growth rates (i.e. you'll see someone who is only putting down 10% of their net worth with a 20% ROI wanting to actually head to the less saturated markets. The inverse becomes true as someone's net worth drops as your Risk of Ruin (RoR) flies up exponentially when you're dropping a lot of your bankroll on one wager). Your RoR is your chance at bankruptcy or any figure you want to put at the bottom (You can put in a 0% chance of going below $100k Net Worth etc).

When I played high stakes poker, there was a well known story of Poker "Bob", aka Haralabos Voulgaris who was finally hired to the be the analytics director for the Dallas Mavericks.  He ended up as one of the best sports bettors of all time, his return on each game bet was >10% for a solid few year window.  Nowadays almost zero people can gain a significant advantage at sports betting (his edge went to under 1% after building out a computer for >$3MM), and he was also unable to place his own bets due to his reputation as a crusher.  Anyhow, when he had around $400,000 to his name he bet almost his entire net worth on the Los Angeles Lakers to win the World Championship.  They were trailing big in game 7 to the Trail Blazers and ended up coming back to win.  He didn't bet that large portion of his bankroll because of Risk of Ruin criteria, but because of Kelly Criterion.  He knew that the edges on sports betting would go off a cliff shortly and that he could make $5MM+ a year if he doubled his bankroll in that very moment.  If he didn't, his growth would be extremely capped during those years.  After Mark Cuban hired him finally, Luka Doncic hated him, so now he is out and owns part of a European soccer team where he does the analytics.

TLDR: Your gambles should go along with the math of your life and your family.  Someone single and young with a job cushion should be gambling much more than most do in the real estate market and taking chances at up and coming markets.  This is because their upside of growing now can really alleviate later life stress and they can recover easier from losses.  While the person with 3 kids and a small skill set work wise to be able to be promoted or start a new company should be making a lot more passive bets.

Fwiw, currently I have not taken enough gambles in real estate myself, and plan to scale up that level shortly! GL all!

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John D.
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John D.
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  • La Quinta, CA
Replied Dec 14 2022, 22:15
Quote from @Brandon Elliott:

I have a question for my fellow STR specialists. First thought a story! :-)I recently traveled to Omaha NE and found out the Airbnb I was staying at was clearing $50K/ year!!! (It was a SFH with 4beds and 2 baths). I live in CO and have a friend whom is STR'ing a triplex and is clearing $50K! A triplex vs a SFH!!!! That is Crazy to me how big of a difference between the two properties but getting essentially the same dollar return. :-D

With that context my question is, where are you invested in and what kind of ROI are you getting from your investment (in dollars).

(If you are comfortable please comment answers to these questions below).

- Style of home.

- The ROI in dollar value.

- The city or area where your property is located.

- How you chose that location and what research you did before buying.

Add up mortgage, taxes, increased insurance, CAPEX, maintenance, furnishings replacement, increased wear and tear, utilities, and property management (even if you are doing it yourself, it takes your time which is worth something), you'd be shocked how much it takes for an STR to be profitable.

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Easton Hill
  • Phoenix Arizona
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Easton Hill
  • Phoenix Arizona
Replied Dec 15 2022, 07:17

@Brandon Elliott

Take into consideration that STVR are more like businesses than they are like long-term rentals. How competitive you are in regard to other market players really matters. 

You could have two properties in the same market that are similar (3 bed / 2 bath - house) and based on the design, location, listing quality, amenities, distribution strategy, host quality, etc these two properties could perform totally differently

An example from my portfolio is in Scottsdale, AZ. I have a 2-bedroom apartment with a yard and a pool that only does 7% better than a 1-bedroom apartment with zero amenities. These properties are only 1 mile apart. The reason for the difference? The 1 bedroom apartment is within walking distance of the major nightlife center in Scottsdale and people seek it out specifically for the "Walkability." 

So the property's competitive position in the market matters a lot!

That said, when looking at a market, you should be looking at demand and supply for the market. Is tourism growing (the government tourism office will know) is the *supply of STR, hotels, and motels growing at the same rate? Or is there an imbalance? If tourism only grew by 5% but the supply of listings in the market grew by 35% you're going to have issues regardless of how well-positioned your property is!

Hope this adds some dimension to your search! 

*For help with understanding STR supply look at Airdna for help with hotel and motel supply look at STR (a research company that just happens to be named STR)