Easy Permits in Chicago | Rough Inspections Required? Or not?

[Jennie Berger]

I'll admit, I'm totally confused about easy permits and the required inspections.

It was our understanding, per 2 different professionals (an architect & licensed GC), that we do NOT need rough inspections when doing a rehab with an easy permit. However, upon scheduling our final inspection for a rehab project (which we were told we DID need), the city told us we needed rough inspections. 🤦‍♀️

As you can imagine, this has been an absolute nightmare of a process to backpeddle and get everything 'righted'. But it still doesn't solve the mystery for me. Do we, or don't we, need rough inspections with an easy permit? I know the city said we do but...

Let me elaborate--the only walls we opened were to update associated piping with new plumbing fixtures and electrical fixtures/switches. This was all on the easy permit. Thus, it would make sense to me that roughs were NOT necessarily, by default required. Add to that the fact that 2 industry professionals told us explicitly that they were NOT necessary, and hence, perhaps you see where my confusion comes from.

Did Chicago change the laws recently? Did something else change? Is this just a decision left up to the discretion of whoever happens to receive the inspection request?

Not gonna lie-- It feels like a moving target with city inspectors at times. One inspector comes out for a rough plumbing inspection and wants a) changed. Even though it's up to code, as is. So you change a) and another plumbing inspector comes out later and says what's a) about? And you try to say that the previous inspector wanted it like that but they don't seem to care and they make you change it again...and this can go on, and on, and on.

Is it just me or are we living in some strange universe where plumbing and other codes don't matter, and inspectors can say and do whatever they want with no recourse? And what about the architects and GCs...shouldn't they know the rules and any applicable changes as they occur?

Do we have recourse? Is there a way to avoid this? Whom can we talk to/complain to (without shooting ourselves in the foot)? Is there a way to hold city people accountable without a lawsuit? Looking for proactive and practical solutions and suggestions.

Thanks guys.

[Christopher Grannen]

I will be following this thread closely, as I have been spending the last week or two deliberating these same questions.  I'm sorry you have to be in this situation where there is an open project that seems in a standstill over red tape. I hope you can find some useful information here.

Unfortunately, I cannot offer anything actionable in terms of suggestions.  I have read differing opinions online and I have heard lots of conjecture from peers about what is required and what is expected, and what my own personal course of action ought to be.  

Something that I have noticed, and THIS IS NOT LEGAL OR PROFESSIONAL ADVICE, is that only a small percentage of the opinions that I have collected indicated that I should unequivocally adhere to all permit procedures as set out by the city.  For a fix-and-flip or income properties, I would guess that the calculus for the property owner than if it were an owner-occupy situation.

good luck, hopefully somebody with experience in your debacle will lend some suggestions!

[Jonathan Klemm]

@Jennie Berger - Sounds like the city of Chicago to me haha.  @Prashanth Mahakali and @Samuel Pavlovcik what is your experience with easy permits and inspections?

We always try to error on the extreme side of caution even if it's going to take more time because like you experienced you never know how the city inspector is going to feel that day.  One thing we've found that really helps is having subcontractors that have been working with the city for a long time and have established relationships with the inspectors (game changer).

I found a Chicago easy permit flow chart, but it was last updated in 2017 haha https://www.chicago.gov/conten...

That all said I've never found anything that clearly defines the inspection process, especially with easy permits.

[Jennie Berger]

@Jonathan Klemm Exactly! I've read through that flow chart too and noticed it wasn't up to date. :/ And tried calling the city, and emailing, with no clear response.

 QUESTION: Can we request certain inspectors, and ask to please avoid certain others, when requesting online inspections? Or does this reflect poorly on us? My gut feeling is if the same inspector who made this last month a living hell for us ever returns to one of our properties, we will be totally stuck and helpless again.

I couldn't agree with you more on building rapport and establishing relationships with the inspectors. I try to put this in perspective, if for noone else than myself and my team. I'm willing to bet that many developers/rehabbers: 

1. Are afraid of inspectors 

2. Don't care about inspectors (other than the fact that they want to pass their inspections) 

3. Look at inspections as a necessary evil, which they are, but they're also there to protect us from shady contractors :)

4. View inspectors as city/government employees who don't really care about other people because they get paid, regardless.

Now, I'll admit, I viewed them this way too LOL. Before this whole debacle ensued. And as time goes on, however, I realize more and more that some inspectors are actually very nice people. In fact, most that we have dealt with seem to want to help. And above all, they're human beings, just like us. Aside from the one-offs who are just plain cruel--you may know one or two of those--I'd say the majority are actually very decent human beings. 

To that end, we have made it a top priority to at least TRY to engage with them on some more meaningful level. Would you believe how many GCs and developers don't even know the name of the inspector who comes to check out their work? I mean, it's written on the back of the permit, but not always legible. (HA) I truly believe something as simple as asking their name, introducing ourselves, and thanking them for their help can go a long way. Kind of how we would treat anyone else in business, or life, for that matter...

Thanks for your feedback. We try to do everything on the up and up. I hope to solve this mystery and never have to go through anything like this again.

[Jennie Berger]

@Christopher Grannen Thanks for the moral support! I hope you find some clarity too. :)

[John Warren]

@Jennie Berger sorry to hear about your experience here. I always wish permitting were more black and white as well, and I also wish that inspectors were held accountable to codes in some fashion. What I personally have learned to do is to hire subs who know the local codes, and more importantly, who know the inspectors. I operate in the western burbs in Berwyn, Cicero and Lyons which can be even worse than Chicago, but it is amazing how certain plumbers, electricians or roofers always pass their inspections.... I even had one electrician pass the rough and the final all in one go which shouldn't even be possible. 

It is all a game, and once you learn the rules of the game you will be in better shape for your next one. Keep pushing forward and it will be worth it in the end. 

[Jennie Berger]

@John Warren Makes sense!

Now, we know one plumber who has connections. But that happened by chance and fell in our lap. 🙃

How would one go about intentionally finding contractors who have established relationships with the inspectors?

As for the codes--my fiance is a GC and he knows the codes. But the codes don't seem to matter to some inspectors...🤷‍♀️

It is a game, isn't it.

[Crystal Smith]

Originally posted by @Jennie Berger:

I'll admit, I'm totally confused about easy permits and the required inspections.

It was our understanding, per 2 different professionals (an architect & licensed GC), that we do NOT need rough inspections when doing a rehab with an easy permit. However, upon scheduling our final inspection for a rehab project (which we were told we DID need), the city told us we needed rough inspections. 🤦‍♀️

As you can imagine, this has been an absolute nightmare of a process to backpeddle and get everything 'righted'. But it still doesn't solve the mystery for me. Do we, or don't we, need rough inspections with an easy permit? I know the city said we do but...

Let me elaborate--the only walls we opened were to update associated piping with new plumbing fixtures and electrical fixtures/switches. This was all on the easy permit. Thus, it would make sense to me that roughs were NOT necessarily, by default required. Add to that the fact that 2 industry professionals told us explicitly that they were NOT necessary, and hence, perhaps you see where my confusion comes from.

Did Chicago change the laws recently? Did something else change? Is this just a decision left up to the discretion of whoever happens to receive the inspection request?

Not gonna lie-- It feels like a moving target with city inspectors at times. One inspector comes out for a rough plumbing inspection and wants a) changed. Even though it's up to code, as is. So you change a) and another plumbing inspector comes out later and says what's a) about? And you try to say that the previous inspector wanted it like that but they don't seem to care and they make you change it again...and this can go on, and on, and on.

Is it just me or are we living in some strange universe where plumbing and other codes don't matter, and inspectors can say and do whatever they want with no recourse? And what about the architects and GCs...shouldn't they know the rules and any applicable changes as they occur?

Do we have recourse? Is there a way to avoid this? Whom can we talk to/complain to (without shooting ourselves in the foot)? Is there a way to hold city people accountable without a lawsuit? Looking for proactive and practical solutions and suggestions.

There are some things I'll say in a public forum about how we work with the permitting process & others things that I will pass on to you in a PM. If we intend to open any walls for major updates to electrical, plumbing or HVAC we assume rough inspections, or If we use an architect that submits drawings to the city we assume there will be a rough inspection. The city of Chicago website is very clear on when to use an Easy Permit.

Regarding inspectors- In every market we've worked in we've had inspectors fail items that are up to code, then leave & come back one week later and pass the item that has not been changed. This is not a Chicago thing, it's an inspector thing. Sometimes you just catch them on a bad day. You can try and sue but lawsuites cost money. How deep are your pockets?

[Jennie Berger]

@Crystal Smith Thanks for adding to the mix!🙌

.

Ya, we chose an easy permit because the work we were doing fell into the category of what was covered. In fact, the permit itself was never the issue. 🤷‍♀️ Looking forward to connecting with you via DM.

[Eric M.]

Just ran into the same issue when calling for final electrical on an Easy permit. They said there was no rough. They started out saying there would be a big problem. Then they said just have all the fixtures and outlets hanging out when the inspector comes. Which is still a lot.

My electrical contractor said don't worry about it. If he has to open an outlet or 2 it will be fine. Luckily our basement ceiling is "open". He says the inspector knows as soon as he starts looking whether it was done by a pro or not. And that has mostly been true in the past. Sometimes they just see the name of the contractor and pass it without coming out, or with just a phone call. But there is always that chance the inspector wants to cause an issue for some unknown reason.

We shall see on this one. It always makes me nervous. Took a while to get an appointment and of course inspection is happening on closing day.

It does seem like the system is almost purposely obtuse. Which is done simply to allow a class of "connected" people who can charge a premium to get things done. It is a pretty common way of doing business in Chicago. Probably other places too but seems like especially Chicago.

Somehow it all seems to work for the most part (I guess it "works" for the privileged who can pay for the connected people)  but it isn't exactly fair or transparent. If they wanted to, they could make it much more efficient.

[Samuel Pavlovcik]

@Jonathan Klemm, thanks for the Mention, and @Eric M. I'm glad to see your response because I was about to tag you into this thread and provide info on the rest of your experience on your latest project...

From my understanding, any time an easy permit has been used, the contractors I have worked with Always anticipated to have Rough and Final inspections for any work that required a Licensed Contractor on the permit (i.e Electrician, Plumber, etc). The biggest benefit of the Easy Permit is it does not require Architectural Drawings, and can be processed very quickly, to allow you to get construction started ASAP since the scope is very limited. That being said, the City still wants to ensure the work was being done per code (i.e. having a rough inspection while components are exposed) and then close out the permit with a Final inspection. They also want to ensure the work is being done by Licensed professionals; i.e. the reason for the permit in the first place. Please keep in mind that I am an Architect and have handled plenty of permits on the front end, but once they have been issued I have not been nearly involved, and this is all information that I understand based on the work of contractors I have worked closely with. That being said, I know that @Mike B. had a different perspective on the subject, and I would like to see his input on this since he has worked more closely with the actual inspection process.

In the end, my thoughts are that if you call for an inspection and they tell you it wasn't needed, then at least you know you are safe to close up the walls. If you don't have the inspection and walls are closed up with no access, and then they inform you it needs to be opened up, now it can be a bigger issue... Obviously the biggest downside to having "Unnecessary inspections" is the time lost by waiting for the inspector, which I believe the City is still pretty delayed right now...

I have heard good stories about inspectors being willing to "work with you" and be "reasonable" as in Eric's case above where since it was open below, they let it slide; and I have even heard that having good photo documentation from while the walls were open, they may even accept this and let it slide thru to Final Inspection!

[Jennie Berger]

Hey @Eric M.- Sounds like you know exactly what we just went through. :/ Lucky you got a helpful inspector. We had a pretty good experience with our HVAC, Electricial, and Final (new) inspectors on this project. It was plumbing that really set us back. It's so frustrating.

[Jennie Berger]

@Samuel Pavlovcik Great adds--thanks for chiming in! Photo documentation is brilliant and, while we take photos of pretty much everything else along the way, I never thought about photo documenting those specific items. 

As for the easy permits & inspections--I just want to be clear that we're on the same page. Are you saying that, as an architect, since you don't deal with permits necessarily when an easy permit is involved (since architectural renderings/plans aren't needed), that you cannot confirm/deny that rough inspections are required? I guess I'm trying to figure out if/where the city mentions anywhere in writing, whether blatantly or hidden, that rough inspections are required. I cannot find it and continue to get conflicting advice. (I assumed (albeit incorrectly, I suppose) that, out of anyone, architects would know best and have access to the most updated information since they work so closely with the city on a regular basis.

Our easy permit covered all of our plumbing and ventilation upgrades. Our basement ceiling was also left exposed which made it easier for the HVAC inspector to get a good look. Luckily he was nice and helpful. We didn't open any other walls up except for the areas associated with the upgraded fixtures/piping, which was included on the permit. We are definitely going to schedule roughs no matter what moving forward. I was just hoping to have a black & white answer, a yes or no. But I'm seeing based on all of the expert insight and responses on this thread, that nobody really knows for sure so it's better to just do it, regardless.

And yes, we schedule inspections about 2 weeks out because they take forever to confirm. Ugh!

[John Warren]

@Jennie Berger I met all of my subs through networking with other investors. Over time, I have come to realize which ones have the in and which ones don't. That doesn't mean that I can never use a new sub, but in certain situations it definitely pays to bring in the right one. 

[Jonathan Klemm]

@Jennie Berger - You definitely can not request specific inspectors.  They are usually assigned based on the location of projects.  

We've connected with most of our subs through networking and then continually asking good subs if they know other good subs.  We've built a pretty large database now and want to start trying new subs, but that's always a little risky.  We actually put them through a vetting process similar to vetting tenants and it has worked well so

[Jennie Berger]

@Jonathan Klemm Sorry for not clarifying on the requesting inspectors part. I was told we can request NOT to have a certain inspector since we've had issues with them in the past. Not that we could request a certain inspector, just to NOT have a certain one. Wanted to make that clear. I'm not sure if that's OK, or frowned upon, or not allowed. One of our plumbers who has a really good connection to the head of one of the inspections departments told us that....so I thought it was worth asking here.

[Mike B.]

Thanks for the tag @Samuel Pavlovcik

Chicago permitting is more of an art than science. The biggest factor is the motive in applying for repair/replace as opposed to plans/permits. 

I'll preface my thoughts by saying that you should always pull the correct permits for your job. The risk is not worth the reward. A lot of people pull repair/replace to save time and money knowing full well that they will be performing work outside of the permit requirements. Quite simply, it's a tactic to post a permit card in your window so if a neighbor calls or an inspector drives by they will see that the city has permitted work at the residence. If they decide to dig deeper and perform a site visit, it will become a costly mistake (time & money).

Previously, inspections for a repair/replace permits were unheard of. Now there are specific things that will trigger an inspection (i.e. electric/plumbing/HVAC). If you're trying to accomplish the scenario above, keep the application limited to windows/doors/cabinetry/trim/etc...the city doesn't have inspectors for those items.

What you don't want to do, is a bunch of work outside the permit and invite inspectors to the property to see what you've done. You either pull the correct permits or lie. There's no middle ground.

My last plumbing inspection was about a week or so ago. The inspector called my plumber, asked him if he did the work and then passed us without performing a site visit. We had pictures throughout the process as a precaution but we didn't end up needing them.

[Samuel Pavlovcik]

A Quick update for everyone, especially @Jennie Berger who started this thread, as it is clearly something that is not well defined by the City, and has been a useful question for many on this forum:

I spoke with Martha Reynoso who is currently pretty much the head if the Easy Permit Department. She did confirm with me that Yes, Rough and Final inspections are required for Easy Permits when you have a Licensed trade doing work that can be covered up; i.e. a Plumber or an Electrician. 

Example: A Bathroom pull & replace interior remodel where the owner is removing wall plaster down to the stud, removing the tub and replacing it with a shower, replacing the toilet in the same location, and replacing the sink/vanity in the same location. For this permit, they needed to list a Licensed Plumber for the plumbing work, and had to have an electrician pull their own permit in order to bring the electrical exposed during construction up to code. This project can be done under an Easy Permit; however, both the Electrician and Plumber would need Rough and Final inspections on this project.

I further inquired about when Rough Inspections would not be needed and she responded with the following:

"I would defer to the inspection office and New Construction bureau, I would think porches or anything that does not require have walls open can be without a rough inspection, I would although take a picture of the footings with a ruler to show the depth of the footing. Currently they are accommodating virtual inspections via zoom and facetime."

I am waiting to see if I can get any direct contact info for the "inspection office and/or "New Construction bureau", or maybe a GC like @Jonathan Klemm may have some more input on this end, as the GC is the one typically calling for- and managing inspections, rather than the Architect. Or at least in my experience...

Additionally,, I would also assume exterior work like Masonry /tuckpointing would not need rough inspections if it is visible from the exterior; however, if you are replacing lintels that would be hidden, it would be a good idea to take photos!

[Jennie Berger]

Thanks for the update @Samuel Pavlovcik--very useful info and so nice to have something concrete in writing!

[Jennie Berger]

Originally posted by @Mike B.:

Thanks for the tag @Samuel Pavlovcik

"Chicago permitting is more of an art than science."  <<<< Ain't that the TRUTH! Thanks for your input Mike. Appreciate it!