How would you reach the homeowner or resident in these situations?
I live in California, and own six tax liens in Arizona for which the redemption period has expired. I mailed out the 30 day notice to start foreclosure on five of them over the last two weeks.
One of the properties is a mobile home affixed to a permanent foundation in a remote Arizona town. There is a metal fence around the front yard, with a metal fence door. It's owned by M&M, a 69 year old single woman. USPS mail tracking states "No Access to Delivery Location" in the tracking website for the certified mail I sent her, and which got into her town on June 29. The message hasn't changed since.
While M&M hasn't paid her 2018 property taxes (which is why I own a lien almost ready to start foreclosure), and hasn't paid her 2021 and 2020 taxes either, she did pay her 2020 taxes less than three years ago. So, she may well be alive and trying to keep the property.
How do I get the 30 day notice delivered to her without driving 7 hours to her home? I suspect that if I sent her the letter by UPS or Fedex, it would be the same problem. I guess it doesn't hurt to try though, and hope that the UPS delivery man and the Fedex delivery man will put in more effort than the mailman. M&M name is very common. Both the first name and the last name. In fact, even though it's a small town, I managed to locate an M&M in it. Just not the right M&M.
I thought about hiring a private process server. That's the solution I am leaning towards right now. I thought about the sheriff's office, but I don't know whether they would deliver a 30 day notice to start foreclosure. But I suspect the process server would show up three times and, if the doesn't come to the fence, mail her the letter, and the letter won't get delivered to her.
Ideally, I would like to avoid real estate agents, brokers, or anybody else who makes a living in the same zip code as real estate. Just to avoid giving too much advance notice to other investors in the unlikely case that the property is, in fact, available for the taking.
What I am trying to avoid is hiring a lawyer on August 1 to start the foreclosure process, have the lawyer serve her with a summons, then she redeems the tax lien, and I will end up with a lien on her home for the amount I will have paid the lawyer, and waiting 10 years or so for the property to sell before getting my lawyer fee back.
Is there some private courier service that would show up to her home and, if he can't get to see M&M, would do some leg work (such as asking the neighbors, and, if she is around, leave the letter with one of the neighbors), instead of just leaving like the mailman did?
Same questions for another property owner, SBC. He took the dead as "<Last Name> B. C.". No first name, nor middle name, on the deed. Only the initials. I wasn't able to locate him and, when I sent him a letter, the post office marked it as "No Mailbox Receptacle", and returned it to me. Just like M&M, even though SBC didn't pay his 2018 taxes, he did pay his 2020 taxes two years ago. So, he is most likely around and would redeem his house if he knew that I sent him a 30 day notice.
Any ideas on how to deliver copies of the 30 days notices to M&M and SBC, besides a process server and the sheriff's office?
SBC even paid his 2022 taxes last year. So, definitely not a deadbeat. Most likely just a disorganized guy.
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Skip trace, probably has a PO Box.
@Abdenour AchabHave you read the statutes to know EXCTLY what is required? The best answer I have is to pay a process server to do this. That is what an attorney would do.
Do you get legal fees reimbursed when someone redeems in AZ? In many states you do. If not this is a risk/cost that you need to account for when buying the liens. Presuming you get legal fees reimbursed then there is no point in not paying a lawyer.
Even if you don't get rieimbursed you might consider a lawyer becasue how the notices are sent and what constitutes acceptable service varies by state law. There may be way to deal with this that an attorney will understand. For example "alternative service"
In Maryland for example you are required to send to the registered address by certified mail. They are not required to recieve it, you are required to send it. If it comes back undeleib=verable you have met your obligation. We take proerties from irresponsible company owners that don't keep their records up to date or dodge service.
Tax sale foreclosures are very complex and it is not recomended to be a do it yourself item. Yes you can lern to do it but ther will be a high cost in the learning process. I have been doing this for 15+ years. I know more about tax sale law in MD than 95% of the attorneys on Maryland. I would not consider doing it myself.
Eve if you chose to do it by yourself you might find the odd one like this that it is worth paying a pro.
Thanks @Ned Carey for those insightful questions.
> Have you read the statutes to know EXCTLY what is required?
Not yet. Right now, I am using the Monkey See Monkey Do method. And monkeys don't read statutes. But now that you sowed the seed in my mind, I will read them ... next month.
A couple of years ago, I hired an attorney to send notices to two property owners. I asked him to share with me copies of whatever he sent. I used that method to learn how to do it. But, now that I think of it, his letters did reach both property owners. Only after I read your question this morning did it occur to me that the statutes may spell out what do it if letters don't reach property owners and/or the people in possession.
> The best answer I have is to pay a process server to do this.
Thanks for the tip. As I stated in my original post, that was the solution I was leaning towards. Now that you said it, I am leaning more towards it. But not before I skip trace, as suggested by @Bruce Lynn, to first find out whether or not they have a PO Box.
> Do you get legal fees reimbursed when someone redeems in AZ?
Like I said above, I haven't read the statutes yet. But, I believe I know the answer to this one. In Arizona, property owners are never required to pay me back legal fees as part of the redemption process. As long as no foreclosure has been finalized, they can just pay back taxes, interest, and a $25 redemption fee to their county treasurer and redeem their property. However, if they do that after they have been served with a foreclosure lawsuit (the actual lawsuit, NOT the 30 day notice), then my lawyer, after first asking them to send him a check for the legal fees, will be able to file a judgment with the county records for the legal costs up that point. From what my lawyer told me a couple of years ago, most investors would then just wait for the property to sell and get paid their lawyers fees and court costs back. The costs for the 30 day notices are never neither reimbursed and, as far as I believe, not even included in the judgment.
So, for the five properties in question here, before paying my lawyer, I want to do my best (short of actually traveling to Arizona) to contact the property owners. And get the ones who are going to redeem their property anyway to redeem them, or take steps towards redeeming them, without the involvement of my lawyer. Then pay my lawyer for the subset of the five where I can't get them to redeem on my own.
> Even if you don't get rieimbursed you might consider a lawyer becasue how the notices are sent and what constitutes acceptable service varies by state law.
For the subset of five who I won't be able to get the property owners to redeem on my own, I plan to pay my lawyer, who will then decide whether to rely on my service, add to it, or redo it from scratch. So, I am not too concerned about not doing the service right. My priority this month (July 2023) is to be able to talk to as many of the five property owners as I can reach. Next month (August 2023) will be the lawyer's month.
@Abdenour Achab thanks for your response it clears up a few things.
"Now that you said it, I am leaning more towards it. But not before I skip trace,"
Back to the statutes, the law can be VERY technical. If you do a skip trace and send the mail to where they actually live but the statute says to mail to the address of record, your natice might not be considered valid. Of course the way to cover your rear end is to send notices to everywhere you can find but if you are using a process server that can add up.
Keep in mind that a process server will have access to much better skip trace tool than you do. That is part of their job. Good luck.
@Jerry K. any comment? Jerry is the resident AZ expert here. Lok up his blog her on BP for great info on AZ tax liens.
Quote from @Ned Carey:
@Abdenour Achab thanks for your response it clears up a few things.
"Now that you said it, I am leaning more towards it. But not before I skip trace,"
Back to the statutes, the law can be VERY technical. If you do a skip trace and send the mail to where they actually live but the statute says to mail to the address of record, your natice might not be considered valid. Of course the way to cover your rear end is to send notices to everywhere you can find but if you are using a process server that can add up.Keep in mind that a process server will have access to much better ski trace tool that you do. That is part of their job. Good luck.
@Jerry K. any comment? Jerry is the resident AZ expert here. Lok up his blog her on BP for great info on AZ tax liens.
All answers and Abdenour's approach seem good. My attorney sent out four 30-day notices to foreclose in AZ a few years ago. One owner paid so I was only out the cost of the 30 Day notice (less than $75). Only when the others did not redeem after 30 days passed, did my attorney ask for a retainer to start the foreclosure suits. If the owners did pay after that, they had to pay attorney fees for the foreclosure up to that point. So for me, paying the attorney to do the 30 Day notice to make sure it was done correctly, was worth the cost if owner redeemed in the 30 Day period.
Thanks @Jerry K. for chiming in with your experience.
> If the owners did pay after that, they had to pay attorney fees for the foreclosure up to that point.
Has your attorney, which, by the way, I believe is the same as mine, told you what happens if the property owner(s) pay the back taxes, interest, and $25 redemption fee to the county treasurer, but don't send him any money?
Mine told me that when property owner(s) ask him what they need to do to keep their property, he tells them to send a check of X dollars amount to the county treasurer, and another check of Y dollars amount to him. And that they generally do that.
But, most likely after I asked (as you can tell from my posts here, I tend to ask too many questions), if all they do is send a check of X dollars amount to the county treasurer, and nothing to him, then the tax lien foreclosure still has to stop. He then asks the court to grant his client a judgment for the legal fees, and records a lien against the property with the county to secure that judgment. And that generally then, his clients just sit idle and wait for the property to sell.
Quote from @Abdenour Achab:
Thanks @Jerry K. for chiming in with your experience.
> If the owners did pay after that, they had to pay attorney fees for the foreclosure up to that point.
Has your attorney, which, by the way, I believe is the same as mine, told you what happens if the property owner(s) pay the back taxes, interest, and $25 redemption fee to the county treasurer, but don't send him any money?Mine told me that when property owner(s) ask him what they need to do to keep their property, he tells them to send a check of X dollars amount to the county treasurer, and another check of Y dollars amount to him. And that they generally do that.
But, most likely after I asked (as you can tell from my posts here, I tend to ask too many questions), if all they do is send a check of X dollars amount to the county treasurer, and nothing to him, then the tax lien foreclosure still has to stop. He then asks the court to grant his client a judgment for the legal fees, and records a lien against the property with the county to secure that judgment. And that generally then, his clients just sit idle and wait for the property to sell.
I've had only one owner redeem after the foreclosure started and I received all my money - principle, interest and attorney fees back right away. Not sure what happens if they don't pay the attorney fees right away.
> monkeys don't read statutes
But, since I am not a monkey (only occasionally behaving like one), I did finally read the whole noticing statute in Arizona (I had glanced at it in the past, but not completely read it). Here it is:
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocu...
As you can see, there is no mention of alternative service, or of what to do if the mailings don't reach the owners of record. But, since my priority in July is talking to the owners, and using my notices (as defective as they might be) as leverage in the discussions, I will do the alternative service even though it's not required by the statute. Just as a way to hopefully get the three owners to whom I haven't talked yet (I have already talked to two owners) to call me.
I didn't exactly comply with the 2.B.3 section for M&M's property, that says "The county assessor's description of the real property.", first, because I hadn't read that part of the statutes before resorting to my patented Monkey See Monkey Do (TM) method and, second, because the county assessor's website includes the following mention "Legal Description: (This Legal Description is not guaranteed for accuracy.)". So, instead of the legal description from the county assessor's web page, I used the legal description from the latest recorded deed on the property.
For three other properties, I copy/pasted the legal description from the Treasurer's website, not the assessor's website. I don't remember whether I used the assessor's website legal description or the treasurer's website legal description for the fifth property
But its not a big deal. For the subset of the five that I will hand over to my attorney, I will point out the above potential mistakes to the attorney and let him decide whether or not to redo the noticing.
Quote from @Bruce Lynn:
Skip trace, probably has a PO Box.
Thanks @Bruce Lynn for the suggestion. I will probably use next time if Fedex fails. For the two properties in question here, what I ended up doing was simply sending them a Fedex with no signature required. Both delivery guys left the envelopes in front of the residences, and took pictures.
When I saw "No Access to Delivery Location" at USPS.com's tracking web page, Chicken Little me started imagining that maybe there was some kind of landslide that make it dangerous to access the residence. But then, when I called the local post office and asked them what "No Access to Delivery Location" means or could mean, the lady told me that it could be something as simple as the absence of a mailbox receptacle in front of the house. The Fedex picture for that residence showed the envelope being left in front of a fence like metal yard door, with two puppies on the other side of that door.
By the way, how do you skip trace these days? Do you use some automated or semi automated website or other online service, or do you hire an actual guy, send him a check or money through Zelle, and have him do some actual work in the real world? When I asked the local post office lady to tell me whether M&M has a post office box, she told me there is some regulation that prevents her from giving me that information.