International Real Estate

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Property Investment in Portugal

Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Posted Jan 8 2019, 17:57

Hi,

The purpose of this post is to connect with anyone interested/actively investing in the Portuguese Real Estate market. 

I am moving to Portugal in March 2019 and wanted to connect with fellow Property investors. There seems to be an interesting investment case for Portugal currently and by building a supportive network of investors we will be able to discuss opportunities and build our experience faster than if we go it alone

When I arrive in March I will be focusing on learning the market and seeing which strategies will work for me. 

Thanks

Thomas

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Jan 12 2019, 11:28

Hi,

Definitely interested in learning more and exchanging experiences about the Portuguese RE market.

Regards,

Rui

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jan 15 2019, 19:48

Hi,

For what it is worth below is my current understanding about mortgage financing in Portugal. Based on this some elements of my REI strategy are going to need to be adapted!

1.To extract equity in your property by re-mortgaging if you brought the property with a mortgage is normally not possible, it might be if you have extensive building improvements.

2.Getting a mortgage on a property you own 100% of is usually possible. Its usually called a post-completion or post-purchase mortgage. It is usually allowable up to 6 - 12 months after the purchase.

3.Buildings are determined as commercial or residential based on the official cadastral category by the local council.

4.Commercial mortgage LTV Max 60% depending on the specifics.

5.Not an issue using foreign income for affordability calculations if salary is taken into account.

6.Property valuation is conducted by a valuation company requested by the bank.

7.Residential mortgages can be up to around 80% LTV depending on affordability.

8. Banks never allow residential mortgage affordability to be based on the income of the property itself

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jan 16 2019, 20:20

Does anyone know where you could find median income data by area in Portugal? Reason for asking is that I am trying to understand what a reasonable target rent per unit is for specific geographical areas. 

I understand that the average household net-adjusted disposable income per capita is USD 20 519 a year. Link below.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/portu...

This tells me I can reasonably expect long term rental income/unit at around 570 Euros to be supported by the market. 

20,519/12 =  1709.92 income per month

1/3 of income spent on rent = 570 Euros per month I reasonably target on average. 

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Jan 17 2019, 03:17

Hi Thomas,

For more data about regarding demographics and such: https://www.pordata.pt/en/Home . I believe it to be a reliable source.

Regarding medium rental income per unit. I couldn't say has you framed in a very generic way. It would depend on location and "category" (a C level vs a B level for instance). Outside Lisbon/Oporto/Coimbra (very hot markets) probably 570€/month on a 3 bedroom condo would be a B level medium rent income.

As always, this is theory only, I have no real experience. Take it with a grain of salt.

Kind regards, Rui

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Replied Jan 19 2019, 23:58

Hi Thomas and Rui,

I am an investor on the Silver Coast. Right now it’s a very hot market and properties are very inflated. Their are opportunities but very much depends on location, no surprise there.  DM me and we can catch up when you get here providing you move close by. 

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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
35
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54
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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
Replied Feb 28 2019, 15:05

@Rui Dias Costa Obrigado ... it is hard to find data on PT.

@Thomas Youngman are you looking to get an RE meetup going in PT? I would be very interested.  I will be in Castelo Branco in March. Relocation in June, possibly to the Coimbra region, but still very open.

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Mar 14 2019, 03:25

Hi Mark,

Sorry for the slow reply. I have been travelling. Very keen on meeting like minded REI people.

We arrive in Portugal at the end of March and once we have got ourselves sorted I will see if we can get a few people around for a meet up. 

Looking forward to arriving in Portugal soon!

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Mar 14 2019, 08:29

Hi guys,

I would also be interested in that idea.

Regards,

Rui

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Mar 24 2019, 08:33

I arrive in Portugal a couple of days ago. I love this place! I haven't managed to get into the waves yet but they look amazing and the countryside is beautiful! 

On the negative side no one wishes to rent long term here! It seems to be pretty much impossible! Everyone we have spoken to only considers short term rent as an option. A combination of extremely tough long term tenant protections and the economics of short term renting being a lot more attractive. 

In  terms of a meet up, I am very keen to meet fellow RE investors so give me a couple of weeks to find a place to live and I am happy to organise one. 

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Mar 26 2019, 01:54

@Thomas Youngman

Welcome!

Yes, it isn’t easy to find a good LTR because there is little offer.

On the other side, when you put something to rent in good condition you get lots of interest. From what I can tell an B area turn over period (with rent increase!) takes 1-2 weeks.

I was told by a previous landlord of mine that her places generate 4-5 solid prospective tenants per week.

This will depend on the market and type of house.

Try looking 1h - 1h30 out of Lisbon. You will get the benefits of a big city without the hassle.

Good luck!

Regards,

Rui

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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied Mar 26 2019, 02:31

@Thomas Youngman Welcome to Portugal! Excited to meet you and the potential to get a REI meetup set up.

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Replied Mar 27 2019, 12:02

Hello @Thomas Youngman welcome to Portugal!

I'm Diogo Capela and it would be a pleasure to meet you and give you some insights on the portuguese real estate market.

In fact, I can send you some documents with information and websites that I believe are relevant to you. Send me a private message so I can forward this information to you.

Finally, count me in on the meeting you are organizing.

Best regards,

Diogo

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Apr 10 2019, 13:51

Ola!

Firstly, Portugal is awesome! Between lovely countryside and stunning coastline, great food and super friendly people I love this place!

Secondly, it would be great to have a meet up in a vaguely central to everyone kinda area. It seems there is a pretty decent group of people on BiggerPockets here in Portugal and it would be fun to meet up and have a few drinks and chat mainly about REI. Though I can also happily talk BJJ, surfing and anything outdoors with a beverage in hand until dawn!

So using the wisdom of the crowd where would be a suitable location for a meet up? Lisbon is an obvious suggestion, but I have been here for hardly anytime at all so what do I know about it:)!

I am in Ericeira, but happy to travel to wherever makes sense for most people to meet up in.

Thoughts?

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Tiago Faria
  • Investor
  • Dublin, County Dublin
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Tiago Faria
  • Investor
  • Dublin, County Dublin
Replied Apr 10 2019, 14:26

Alverca here! :) Lisbon would probably be ideal

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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
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Christopher Matthews
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied Apr 11 2019, 05:23

In Cascais.  I can work with Lisbon.  We could also do something close to where the A9, A16 and A37 meet...like Queluz.

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied Apr 12 2019, 01:51

I am up to meet at Queluz as well 

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Replied Apr 12 2019, 05:19

Snap! I'll hopefully be in the Algarve in the latter part of this year and would love to touch base :)

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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
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54
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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
Replied Apr 12 2019, 10:35

Lisbon would seem reasonable for the first meetup at least. Count me in!

I will be there from June 10th, and @Linda Weygant will be out around July 18th. 

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Apr 12 2019, 12:25

Queluz on the outskirts of Lisbon sounds good. I must admit I have never actually been to this area, so does anyone have any good suggestions as to a suitable venue? Shall we get a table for dinner or just go to a bar? 

Date wise I am happy to go whenever the majority of people can do so. Does Bigger Pockets have a clever scheduling function on it at all?! 

For me I am free pretty much always now:)

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied Apr 12 2019, 13:25

Since I am born and raised in Queluz, I will be happy to suggest a place.

Came to stay for Easter break, and I am currently there. Let me know if it’s possible to make it between 15-20th April

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Replied Apr 14 2019, 14:52

Hi all,

I’m on the, Silver coast, an hour north of Lisbon. would love to meet. Is it possible to meet in Maffra.

I’m available most days.  Cheers

Frank

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Apr 15 2019, 01:52

Hi Frank, 

I am in Ericeira, it would be great to meet up for a coffee sometime in Maffra if that is your area?

Luis, this week works for me, though lets see how many people are available. Thoughts?

Thomas

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied Apr 15 2019, 02:36

I am available to meet in Queluz or Mafra. Up to you Thomas. Looking forward.

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Apr 23 2019, 04:18

Hi all,

It seems we have found a property we are keen on in Peniche for investment in the Local Accommodation space. 

If any one can recommend a good REI focused lawyer or a building engineer to do a building survey then please let me know!

Further down the line we will also need a CPA to help us with our tax reporting requirements here in Portugal, so again any recommendations I would love to hear them please!

In terms of the meet up how would Queluz on Friday 3rd May in the evening work for people?

Thanks

Thomas

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Replied Apr 23 2019, 06:00

@Thomas Youngman - I don't know much but I'm happy to share what I've got - I've been using LVP Advogados (https://www.lvpadvogados.com/real-estate.html) in Lisboa to facilitate most of my affairs remotely, including taxes and real estate. Bonus points, for me at least, is that they're squared away in explaining the nitty gritty in English :)

For more tips/contacts/how-to's, there are a few expat groups on FB that has a much better lay of the land. Pretty sure the fine locals on this thread will have even greater insight.

As for Peniche - I'm curious as to how you ended up focusing on that area? Is this a long-term rental or more of an airbnb type idea? I don't mean to pry - just curious :)