International Real Estate

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
37
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23
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Property Investment in Portugal

Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Posted Jan 8 2019, 17:57

Hi,

The purpose of this post is to connect with anyone interested/actively investing in the Portuguese Real Estate market. 

I am moving to Portugal in March 2019 and wanted to connect with fellow Property investors. There seems to be an interesting investment case for Portugal currently and by building a supportive network of investors we will be able to discuss opportunities and build our experience faster than if we go it alone

When I arrive in March I will be focusing on learning the market and seeing which strategies will work for me. 

Thanks

Thomas

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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
8
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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 16 2020, 15:40
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:

Hi guys,

Hope everyone is well.

Lockdown is being lifted and looks like the B and C areas took a ~8% haircut in asking prices.

I am looking at the center of Portugal, in the interior and RE is local... How are thing in your "interest" area?

Regards, Rui

I moved to the interior a couple of months ago and I'm loving it (location and cash-wise...). Getting 25-30% GROSS yearly ROI, even on conservative scenario (I'm not charging crazy rents. Only market or even a bit under-market values

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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied May 17 2020, 02:45

Hi Ricardo (@Ricardo Matos),

It looks like you are doing great. Those are great gross margins, better than anything that I have found in LTRs. Congratulations because that's amazing!
I guess I may be looking for it in the wrong place or just don't know what to look for, lol, need to continue educating myself.

May we dig a little further in your numbers? How much do you net (including financing costs)? What kind of market are you on?

Regards, Rui

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Replied May 17 2020, 06:16
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:

Hi guys,

Hope everyone is well.

Lockdown is being lifted and looks like the B and C areas took a ~8% haircut in asking prices.

I am looking at the center of Portugal, in the interior and RE is local... How are thing in your "interest" area?

Regards, Rui

I moved to the interior a couple of months ago and I'm loving it (location and cash-wise...). Getting 25-30% GROSS yearly ROI, even on conservative scenario (I'm not charging crazy rents. Only market or even a bit under-market values

 Nice returns.  We are considering the interior also.  We are looking to invest in Portugal real estate taking advantage of the Golden Visa opportunity.

Ricardo, what area(s) of the interior did you invest in?  Are there areas you might recommend?

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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
8
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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 18 2020, 03:21
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:

Hi Ricardo (@Ricardo Matos),

It looks like you are doing great. Those are great gross margins, better than anything that I have found in LTRs. Congratulations because that's amazing!
I guess I may be looking for it in the wrong place or just don't know what to look for, lol, need to continue educating myself.

May we dig a little further in your numbers? How much do you net (including financing costs)? What kind of market are you on?

Regards, Rui

The numbers are in fact super attractive. its almost 2x what I get from Lisbon South Bay area (where I started investing 3 yrs ago). I look for non-inflated markets and work aggressively on the deals and finding my types of sellers. I started prospecting the interior around 2 years ago. After picking a handful of areas of interest, it took me about 6 months to work on the deals that met the numbers I mentioned before.

Now its time to scale!

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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
8
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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 18 2020, 03:32
Originally posted by @Russ Johnson:
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:

Hi guys,

Hope everyone is well.

Lockdown is being lifted and looks like the B and C areas took a ~8% haircut in asking prices.

I am looking at the center of Portugal, in the interior and RE is local... How are thing in your "interest" area?

Regards, Rui

I moved to the interior a couple of months ago and I'm loving it (location and cash-wise...). Getting 25-30% GROSS yearly ROI, even on conservative scenario (I'm not charging crazy rents. Only market or even a bit under-market values

 Nice returns.  We are considering the interior also.  We are looking to invest in Portugal real estate taking advantage of the Golden Visa opportunity.

Ricardo, what area(s) of the interior did you invest in?  Are there areas you might recommend?

Several clients have also been wanting to move away from the great centers & their suburbs due to the crazy price increases from the last couple of years. I believe there's a big growth opportunity in the interior cities. IMO this covid crisis will boost the demand in such areas even more as remote work culture is shifting rapidly (data I'm gathering from my peers & partners from several digital products/services companies who are either workers and CEOs).

@Russ, I believe that, with a scale for investment such as the one necessary for a Golden Visa, you could initiate very interesting projects within these areas. Something I find much more exciting and ROI-stable than just a big-*** luxurious apartment in Lisbon Downtown ;)

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied May 21 2020, 17:13
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:

Hi Ricardo (@Ricardo Matos),

It looks like you are doing great. Those are great gross margins, better than anything that I have found in LTRs. Congratulations because that's amazing!
I guess I may be looking for it in the wrong place or just don't know what to look for, lol, need to continue educating myself.

May we dig a little further in your numbers? How much do you net (including financing costs)? What kind of market are you on?

Regards, Rui

The numbers are in fact super attractive. its almost 2x what I get from Lisbon South Bay area (where I started investing 3 yrs ago). I look for non-inflated markets and work aggressively on the deals and finding my types of sellers. I started prospecting the interior around 2 years ago. After picking a handful of areas of interest, it took me about 6 months to work on the deals that met the numbers I mentioned before.

Now its time to scale!

 Hi Ricardo,

I wonder if you could do a "deep dive" in one of your deals. Netting 25-30% yearly ROI is just amazing.

I would really appreciate the opportunity to "see" into one of your deals and your numbers (they don't need to be exact, just a ballpark). I honestly can't find returns like that in LTRs and I wonder if the problem is the way I am looking at things (you don't know what you don't know, right?!).

Regards, Rui

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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
8
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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 23 2020, 04:17

Sure, no problem.


In order to get those GROSS (not Net - I wish!) 25%, I work on finding deals where I can get T0-T2 apartments for less than €5000 each. Then I put on average €8 - 10K on rehab (I have my own team). In the region of the interior, with a good product, I can get a minimum of 250€ rent. Of course I always approach the market with a higher rent value.

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Replied May 23 2020, 06:38
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:

Sure, no problem.


In order to get those GROSS (not Net - I wish!) 25%, I work on finding deals where I can get T0-T2 apartments for less than €5000 each. Then I put on average €8 - 10K on rehab (I have my own team). In the region of the interior, with a good product, I can get a minimum of 250€ rent. Of course I always approach the market with a higher rent value.

I guess it's 50.000€ each, right?

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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
8
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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 23 2020, 06:41
Originally posted by @Marco Teixeira:
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:

Sure, no problem.


In order to get those GROSS (not Net - I wish!) 25%, I work on finding deals where I can get T0-T2 apartments for less than €5000 each. Then I put on average €8 - 10K on rehab (I have my own team). In the region of the interior, with a good product, I can get a minimum of 250€ rent. Of course I always approach the market with a higher rent value.

I guess it's 50.000€ each, right?

No, you've read it right: €5000 (five thousand euro) each :)

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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied May 23 2020, 06:41

Fantástico 👏🏻 

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Replied May 23 2020, 07:01
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:
Originally posted by @Marco Teixeira:
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:

Sure, no problem.


In order to get those GROSS (not Net - I wish!) 25%, I work on finding deals where I can get T0-T2 apartments for less than €5000 each. Then I put on average €8 - 10K on rehab (I have my own team). In the region of the interior, with a good product, I can get a minimum of 250€ rent. Of course I always approach the market with a higher rent value.

I guess it's 50.000€ each, right?

No, you've read it right: €5000 (five thousand euro) each :)

Ahah nice, you're killing it! ;)

Multifamily?

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154
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166
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JJ P.
  • Real Estate Agent
  • San DIego
166
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154
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JJ P.
  • Real Estate Agent
  • San DIego
Replied May 23 2020, 07:48

We've been kicking around the idea of a Portugal house for years.  I get lots of Golden Visa information from the real estate brokers.  It's a very attractive idea.  I do believe the investment can be split among more properties, correct?

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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
14
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36
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied May 23 2020, 16:21
Originally posted by @Ricardo Matos:

Sure, no problem.


In order to get those GROSS (not Net - I wish!) 25%, I work on finding deals where I can get T0-T2 apartments for less than €5000 each. Then I put on average €8 - 10K on rehab (I have my own team). In the region of the interior, with a good product, I can get a minimum of 250€ rent. Of course I always approach the market with a higher rent value.

 Hi Richard,

Thank you for your clarification. Now I understand and makes sense. You get apartments at very good price, I live in the interior but where I am looking I can't find anything near that price point. I need to expand where I am looking and probably how I am looking.

Thank you again for the candour.

Regards, Rui

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42
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21
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
Posts
Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied May 24 2020, 11:47
Originally posted by @JJ P.:

We've been kicking around the idea of a Portugal house for years.  I get lots of Golden Visa information from the real estate brokers.  It's a very attractive idea.  I do believe the investment can be split among more properties, correct?

That’s correct.

You can buy one or multiple properties that together are worth of 500k (or 350k)

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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
8
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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 24 2020, 13:50

@Marco Teixeira @Rui Dias Costa @Luís Ferreira

Thanks!

Yes, Multi-family is definitely the most efficient way to obtain these numbers, specially taxes-wise.

Rui: I believe is all about positioning yourself with the best people for each market. It surely takes time (~2 yrs in my case, but I'm from Lisbon area) to build those connections.

I felt the same while I started investing in my home city. I was doing 20+ visits & meetings per week just to understand who are the best brokers and sellers to meet my goals on RE.

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9
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Replied May 24 2020, 15:14

Hello everybody! I'm Pedro, from Lisbon but I live and work in Switzerland for some years.

I'm interested in RE, and I wanted to start investing in Lisbon or some spots in Algarve.

I'll be in Portugal on vacations, during August. Is something planned for that month, for a meeting with the investors that are speaking here?

I have some lights on what to do, but I would love to know opinions from others!

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42
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21
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
21
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42
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Luís Ferreira
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Lisbon, Lisbon
Replied May 25 2020, 05:42

@Pedro Correia will be happy to meet you and set up something together with other investors.

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59
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25
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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
25
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59
Posts
Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 28 2020, 09:23

Any Algarve investor?

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59
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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
25
Votes |
59
Posts
Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied May 28 2020, 09:24
Originally posted by @Pedro Correia:

Hello everybody! I'm Pedro, from Lisbon but I live and work in Switzerland for some years.

I'm interested in RE, and I wanted to start investing in Lisbon or some spots in Algarve.

I'll be in Portugal on vacations, during August. Is something planned for that month, for a meeting with the investors that are speaking here?

I have some lights on what to do, but I would love to know opinions from others!

 Happy to speak about the Algarve if you want!

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Replied May 29 2020, 13:00
Originally posted by @Juan Correia:
Originally posted by @Pedro Correia:

Hello everybody! I'm Pedro, from Lisbon but I live and work in Switzerland for some years.

I'm interested in RE, and I wanted to start investing in Lisbon or some spots in Algarve.

I'll be in Portugal on vacations, during August. Is something planned for that month, for a meeting with the investors that are speaking here?

I have some lights on what to do, but I would love to know opinions from others!

 Happy to speak about the Algarve if you want!

 Yes Juan, it would be great to know your knowledge about great deals that are right now or soon in Algarve!

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Replied May 29 2020, 13:04
Originally posted by @Luís Ferreira:

@Pedro Correia will be happy to meet you and set up something together with other investors.

 Ok Luis, i'll get in touch with you some days before leaving to Portugal. But feel free to talk with me, if you are aware of great oportunities in Lisbon or real near/around, i'll be happy to know it!

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59
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25
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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
25
Votes |
59
Posts
Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jun 11 2020, 02:30
Originally posted by @Pedro Correia:

Hello everybody! I'm Pedro, from Lisbon but I live and work in Switzerland for some years.

I'm interested in RE, and I wanted to start investing in Lisbon or some spots in Algarve.

I'll be in Portugal on vacations, during August. Is something planned for that month, for a meeting with the investors that are speaking here?

I have some lights on what to do, but I would love to know opinions from others!

The Algarve has basically:

1- Vacation rentals (depends on the area) for short-term duration or long term duration

2- Residential (Faro, Loulé, Portimão) are the most populated cities.

3- Commercial (restaurants, hotels and services)

These are the 3 main markets.

Opportunities lie specially on rehab, particularly >30y old apartments or houses, buy and hold in residential cities (specially for student loans), vacation rentals (All around the Algarve) or commercial long-term rentals...

It depens a lot on wheter you're a buy and hold investor or if you want to

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54
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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
35
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54
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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
Replied Jun 18 2020, 05:08

@Ricardo Matos Amazing you are finding €5k apartments, are they just in very poor shape, or are they semi-rural? 

I own BRRRR properties in Colorado, but now looking to invest in Portugal, and run a group for mostly British & American Expats in Coimbra - some of which would be interested in Golden Visa investments.

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13
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6
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Giancarlo Rodrigues
  • New to Real Estate
  • New Jersey
6
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13
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Giancarlo Rodrigues
  • New to Real Estate
  • New Jersey
Replied Jun 18 2020, 06:28

Hey all,

My grandfather is leaving me and my father his 6 unit building in Loule (Unfortunately he is in a long term facility now being 92 will do that).  Me and my dad have been talking about purchasing the land next to his for sometime now and expanding the current building.  The land is currently owned by my cousin so the conversation to purchase will need to be dealt with care.  

The question i have is, is there a rental market in the area?  My grandfather got lucky and has 5 now 6 long term tenants but i don't know if that's the norm or he just extremely lucky.

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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
8
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16
Posts
Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jun 18 2020, 06:31
Originally posted by @Mark C.:

@Ricardo Matos Amazing you are finding €5k apartments, are they just in very poor shape, or are they semi-rural? 

I own BRRRR properties in Colorado, but now looking to invest in Portugal, and run a group for mostly British & American Expats in Coimbra - some of which would be interested in Golden Visa investments.

Those are apartments in older, historical buildings.

Did you know the Golden Visa Program is to be closed, except for investments in municipalities in the interior of the country?