International Real Estate

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
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Property Investment in Portugal

Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Posted Jan 8 2019, 17:57

Hi,

The purpose of this post is to connect with anyone interested/actively investing in the Portuguese Real Estate market. 

I am moving to Portugal in March 2019 and wanted to connect with fellow Property investors. There seems to be an interesting investment case for Portugal currently and by building a supportive network of investors we will be able to discuss opportunities and build our experience faster than if we go it alone

When I arrive in March I will be focusing on learning the market and seeing which strategies will work for me. 

Thanks

Thomas

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JJ P.
  • Real Estate Agent
  • San DIego
166
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154
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JJ P.
  • Real Estate Agent
  • San DIego
Replied Jun 18 2020, 06:44

When is the Golden Visa program closing?

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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
35
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54
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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
Replied Jun 20 2020, 06:43

@Ricardo Matos yes, i think they are still processing the applications that were in progress, but not accepting new ones. 

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Replied Jul 7 2020, 23:52

@Ricardo Matos / @Mark C. - Do you have any links I can look at from government sources about the golden visa closure? I'm asking as the official one I have from SEF still seems to show that they're accepting new applications - https://www.sef.pt/en/pages/conteudo-detalhe.aspx?nID=21

Also, an updated (albeit unofficial) source doesn't mention anything about a closure at all - https://www.expatica.com/pt/moving/visas/golden-visa-portugal-1042263/

I am, however, aware that some regions have been removed - Notably Porto and Lisbon - although the legislation behind that hasn't been ratified as far as I know. For what it's worth, the first I heard about that was on Idealista: https://www.idealista.pt/en/news/legal-advice-portugal/2020/03/09/536-portugal-ends-golden-visas-lisbon-and-porto

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Replied Jul 7 2020, 23:52

How is everyone's property investment(s) going now that we're a few months into COVID-19?

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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
25
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59
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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jul 8 2020, 03:24
Originally posted by @Giancarlo Rodrigues:

Hey all,

My grandfather is leaving me and my father his 6 unit building in Loule (Unfortunately he is in a long term facility now being 92 will do that).  Me and my dad have been talking about purchasing the land next to his for sometime now and expanding the current building.  The land is currently owned by my cousin so the conversation to purchase will need to be dealt with care.  

The question i have is, is there a rental market in the area?  My grandfather got lucky and has 5 now 6 long term tenants but i don't know if that's the norm or he just extremely lucky.

 Hi, I work in Loulé. Yes there's a GROWING rental market in the area.

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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
25
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59
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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jul 8 2020, 03:26
Originally posted by @Riaan Knoetze:

How is everyone's property investment(s) going now that we're a few months into COVID-19?

We are entering the high season in the south, but occupation, which should be around 90%-100% is currently on 20%-30%... So not so well. 

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Replied Jul 8 2020, 06:54

Hi @Juan Correia,  you mentioned a growing rental market in Loulé.  What is the economic driver.

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54
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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
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Mark C.
  • Investor
  • Coimbra, Portugal
Replied Jul 8 2020, 07:26

@Riaan Knoetze I have heard that the GV is closing, but have not seen an official announcement. I have not been particularly following it

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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jul 8 2020, 07:38
Originally posted by @Russ Johnson:

Hi @Juan Correia,  you mentioned a growing rental market in Loulé.  What is the economic driver.

Loule is one of the richest counties in Portugal. The mayor is investing heavily in bringing regional and national services to the city, which brings more specialized workers. Also, construction is in all time low, so that factors into the need for rental properties.

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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
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16
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Ricardo Matos
  • Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Jul 8 2020, 08:09
Originally posted by @Riaan Knoetze:

@Ricardo Matos / @Mark C. - Do you have any links I can look at from government sources about the golden visa closure? I'm asking as the official one I have from SEF still seems to show that they're accepting new applications - https://www.sef.pt/en/pages/conteudo-detalhe.aspx?nID=21

Also, an updated (albeit unofficial) source doesn't mention anything about a closure at all - https://www.expatica.com/pt/moving/visas/golden-visa-portugal-1042263/

I am, however, aware that some regions have been removed - Notably Porto and Lisbon - although the legislation behind that hasn't been ratified as far as I know. For what it's worth, the first I heard about that was on Idealista: https://www.idealista.pt/en/news/legal-advice-portugal/2020/03/09/536-portugal-ends-golden-visas-lisbon-and-porto

From what I read, the GV program is still open, excluding Lisbon & Porto and Algarve (big centres). It will still be open for cases where one invests in the interior.

I think we are at the start of a big wave, where more investors will start looking into the interior, hence there will be more information about these markets. Like I said somewhere before on this post, these regions are the only ones I'm being able to get 20%+ yearly returns.

I've also invested in Lisbon suburbs back in 2017 (prices were 2/3x lower than now), and the best that I could get from those investments is ~15%

Just my 2 cents tho

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Karelyn Cruz
  • Ft L J Mcnair, DC
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Karelyn Cruz
  • Ft L J Mcnair, DC
Replied Jul 15 2020, 04:05

Has any of you look into the new "Renda Segura" program in the municipality of Lisbon? I'm curious is this might be a good investment path. The way I see it, the positives are that the municipality takes the burden of finding the tenant, rental agreement with the municipality is for are for at least five years (this might be a negative for some) and you'll be exempt from both property and capital gains taxes. The negatives are that rents are might be lower than market rates and definitely than Airbnb rentals. Has anyone run some numbers to get a sense of when this program might be a good investment? 

https://www.lisboa.pt/fileadmin/cidade_temas/habitacao/documentos/ProgramaRendaSegura_CondicoesGerais.pdf

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-08/lisbon-s-plan-to-reclaim-vacation-rentals-for-housing

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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
25
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59
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Juan Correia
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Aug 10 2020, 09:48

I believe this program is to help lower income families. However, because it has state funding, it becomes more secure in terms of payments from the tenants. 

However, the price is controlled (rent price that is), so it really depends, because the RENT VALUES are going to be below market average. 

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Filipe Ferreira
  • Lisbon, Portugal
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Filipe Ferreira
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied Sep 29 2020, 07:06
Originally posted by @Luís Ferreira:

It’s possible but works in a different way.

When you ask for financing, the % will over the purchase price, or over the appraisal.
If you refinance within 2 y, the appraisal doesn’t count, so it has to be considered only the purchase price. Over 2 y and new appraisal will be possible

 Hello everyone,

So glad I found this thread with people focused on REI in Portugal. Just learned a lot with your experiences and thank you for sharing.

@Luís Ferreira  how can I found more on this subject? Do you have that information based on experience and knowledge of banking policy or is there any law/regulation about it?

Following this thread!! 

best regards,


Filipe Ferreira


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Replied Sep 29 2020, 10:09

Considering these COVID-times and policies around group sizes, how does everyone feel about a Zoom meetup?

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Replied Oct 18 2020, 13:14

Hello All/Ola todos, 

You never know what you're going to find when you search the internet for your own questions. I'm so glad I found this thread. I had know idea so many people were interested in REI in Portugal, I thought I was the only one.

So a little background on me. My name is Ricardo. Born and raised in NY to Portuguese parents. I have (literally) been traveling to Portugal since I was born. I'm pretty sure I was on an airplane two months later. My parents are both from Oliveira de Azemeis (Aveiro District) about 40 mins south of Porto. It's these areas I'm most familiar with. I haven't made any investments yet, I'm still in the research phase. I was thinking my first investment being somewhere in the 100-150,000 EUR range. T0-T2 in the Porto area. In the near future I plan on moving to Portugal all together. I have dual citizenship and I can use a family members apartment to stay at in the meantime. In the future I hope to build a decent sized portfolio, learn as much as I can and maybe get into some property development. Does anyone on here do this full-time or are you guys/gals doing this on the side along with a full-time job?

I am hoping once this covid-19 situation dies down a little bit I can make my way to Portugal and scope out some properties, meet up with like minded individuals, talk real estate, build my contacts and maybe partner up on a deal or two. Like I said I'm still in the beginning phase so I apologize for the rant. Any and all constructive criticism or questions are welcome. Thanks.

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Replied Oct 18 2020, 13:40

Oh, I forgot to add that I speak fluent Portuguese if that helps. Reading and writing could use some work but I get by. 

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Rahul Bhatt
  • Fremont, CA
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Rahul Bhatt
  • Fremont, CA
Replied Oct 18 2020, 22:23
Please let me know if you guys end up doing a zoom call I am very much interested.

I am from california .I am a new person for portugal but love real estate. 

Originallyy posted by @Riaan Knoetze:

Considering these COVID-times and policies around group sizes, how does everyone feel about a Zoom meetup?

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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
6
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10
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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
Replied Nov 2 2020, 12:04
Hello Riaan, I thinks its a great ideia to schedule a Zoom meeting and discuss ideias and opportunities

I would like to participate and network with the good people in this forum

Best,

Mauro Neves

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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
Replied Nov 2 2020, 12:15

Hey all,

I'm trying to find apartments in Portugal that fit the 1% rule for rentals, considering the average income in Portugal I'm looking to average rents beetween 400 - 550 Eur.

I found a place called Entroncamento which is located in Santarém (right next to Lisbon) where you can find apartments (T2 and T3) staring for 45k EUR (to renovate but some in good conditions). Entroncamento has around 20k residentes and train with connection to Lisboa and Porto.

Does everyone knows this place and if I'm correctly seeing this possible investment opportunity?

Mauro Neves

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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
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Rui Dias Costa
  • Portugal
Replied Nov 5 2020, 01:36
Originally posted by @Mauro Neves:
Hey all,
I'm trying to find apartments in Portugal that fit the 1% rule for rentals, considering the average income in Portugal I'm looking to average rents beetween 400 - 550 Eur.
I found a place called Entroncamento which is located in Santarém (right next to Lisbon) where you can find apartments (T2 and T3) staring for 45k EUR (to renovate but some in good conditions). Entroncamento has around 20k residentes and train with connection to Lisboa and Porto.
Does everyone knows this place and if I'm correctly seeing this possible investment opportunity?
Mauro Neves

Hi Mauro,

A a few years ago I looked at condos at Entroncamento, at the time a friend suggested that I should really get to know the city before buying there. Apparently there are significant differences in tenant "quality" from one street to the next. In one street it might be a great deal, the next it may be a nightmare. 

Anyways, knowing the area seems a good advice seems a good advice and a prerequisite for consistent success.

Regards, Rui

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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
Replied Nov 7 2020, 08:28
Originally posted by @Rui Dias Costa:
Originally posted by @Mauro Neves:
Hey all,
I'm trying to find apartments in Portugal that fit the 1% rule for rentals, considering the average income in Portugal I'm looking to average rents beetween 400 - 550 Eur.
I found a place called Entroncamento which is located in Santarém (right next to Lisbon) where you can find apartments (T2 and T3) staring for 45k EUR (to renovate but some in good conditions). Entroncamento has around 20k residentes and train with connection to Lisboa and Porto.
Does everyone knows this place and if I'm correctly seeing this possible investment opportunity?
Mauro Neves

Hi Mauro,

A a few years ago I looked at condos at Entroncamento, at the time a friend suggested that I should really get to know the city before buying there. Apparently there are significant differences in tenant "quality" from one street to the next. In one street it might be a great deal, the next it may be a nightmare. 

Anyways, knowing the area seems a good advice seems a good advice and a prerequisite for consistent success.

Regards, Rui

 Hello Rui,

Thanks for the advice. I live abroad, but I will be in Portugal in December and I'm planning to visit Entroncamento and talk with local real estate brokers and other locals to better understand the rental market there, to have more information for my analysis.

I'm looking to locations close to Lisbon and with good infrastructure (transports, social, manufacturing, etc) with prices under 60k, because I think in 5 to 10 years, they can have  appreciation between 20% to 40% in some cases.

Thats my experience with investing in Barreiro, In less than a year I have aprecciation around 20%-25% in 2 apartments that I bought under market value in the beginning of 2020 and rents are around the 1% of acquisition value.

I also plan to talk with some banks to understand better what refinancing solutions are available in the market.

Regards,

Mauro

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Replied Nov 9 2020, 07:34

Hi there,

Thanks everyone you for sharing your insights. I am new to the thread - have been in Lisbon for a few years now and looking to purchase my first investment property. I am looking at similar requirements to Mauro above.

Does anyone have experience purchasing properties outside the primary channels like real estate brokers, for example through auction sites or banks? I found euroestates.pt, but haven't tested it.

When Covid gets under control, I would love to organize a Lisbon physical meetup for real estate investors. 

G

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Cíntia K.
  • Lisbon, Portugal
0
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Cíntia K.
  • Lisbon, Portugal
Replied Nov 12 2020, 09:47

Hi everyone. New here in this forum. I'm based in Lisbon, Portugal and am always interested to network with anyone connected to the RE industry. I am particularly interested in rehabilitation of old buildings and would love to meetup with you all when the situation allows. 

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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
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23
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Thomas Youngman
  • Rental Property Investor
  • Portugal
Replied Nov 12 2020, 13:38

Hi,

We focus on old building rehabs for renovation. It’s an area we have found to have a lot of potential.

Happy to have a call to discuss if you wish.


Thomas

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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
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Mauro Neves
  • Investor
  • Lisbon
Replied Nov 15 2020, 02:59

Hello Everyone, 

In my quest do find my 4th  deal, Um looking at the interior of Portugal (Portalegre, Castelo Branco, Vila Real, Santarem). Im also looking for local tourism  in Smaller but historical cities. Does anyone knows if its easy do find professional property managers in this smaller cities?

Mauro Neves