Summary: I attended the December 2017 event as a VIP member. Compared to other events I attended over the past 23 years, this had the least usable content and the most red flags. I did not receive “VIP Education,” I did not sign up for the $50,000 Big Dog Program, and I was invisible to them once my decision not to sign up was known. I think there is some value to what they teach, but not for what they charge. The main value to me would be the networking with other Big Dogs, as they condition their Big Dogs to not engage with non-Big Dogs, but it’s not worth $50K to me for the “privilege” of networking with others.

Details: The following submission is based on me and my fiancee’s observations and experiences for Phil’s Big Live Event on Dec 1-3, 2017. My intention is not to write a hit piece, but rather share my experience being there.

Part 1: The VIP Experience

We paid $1000 to be VIPs. My expectations upon signing up for VIP were that we would receive exclusive insights, education, and access to Phil and Shenoah. We got a limo-van tour of 3 properties, we had snacks and some class time at Phil’s mansion, we got hotel food in a private meeting room, and we got a steak dinner at Perry’s Steakhouse and Grill.

Expectation #1: Insights

We heard stories of students’ deals. During the first day introductions of all the VIP members, it became apparent to me that everyone else was a newbie, and I was by far the most veteran investor there. Nothing stands out to me as far as Insights that was worth $1000.

Expectation #2: Education

There was no exclusive strategy or seller negotiation tactic or any major lesson taught to us VIP members. We pretty much got the same content as everyone else in the room, who didn’t pay $1000. What was severely lacking the entire weekend was any detailed information about how to go out and find these deals. I’m not talking about a powerpoint bullet about “pre-foreclosures” or “probate.” I’m talking about more granular steps: which website to go to, what search filters to use, what areas to focus on; I’ve attended other coaches’ classes that did provide this level of granularity, and the price-to-content ratio was well worth it.

Expectation #3: Access

I did not witness much effort on Phil or Shenoah’s part to individually build relationships with the VIP members. I felt that all the activities and discussions were intended to funnel people into the Big Dog Program.

Part 2: My Red Flags from being an attendee

Red Flag #1: Grooming. I felt that the entire class was being groomed to sign up for the Big Dog Program. We would frequently be told “It’s not what it costs you, it’s what it makes you.” On the one hand, yes, that makes sense. If you spend $3000/month on direct mail marketing, it might make you $30,000 from a deal you get from that marketing. If you spend $50,000 on the Big Dog Program, it might make you $50,000 on your first deal. Or it might make you nothing (if you take no action or give up too soon). Or it might make you $50,000 over the course of a year or two. On the other hand, I saw it as a way to get people to do mental gymnastics in their head to justify taking a large financial risk for a coaching program.

Red Flag #2: Exclusion. They strongly discourage all attendees from listening to experienced investors (EI) that aren't in the Big Dog Program: The EI could give them bad information; The EI thinks he knows it all; The EI is dangerous and is not to be trusted; The worst advice is Bad Trusted Advice. That last one does make sense in certain contexts, but can be used to dissuade newbies from talking to EIs. What I got out of this is that they want full control of information flow to their newbies. Also, by segregating Big Dogs from non-Big Dogs at the REIA events and the like, they create great value in providing exclusive access to the veteran Big Dogs.

Red Flag #3: No Software Demos. I’m a software guy - my career was in games and software testing. If one of the major selling points of a coaching program is a software ecosystem, then I expect to see reasonable real-time demonstrations of how the software works before I commit any money to that program. We didn’t get any demos of the software. We only got some screenshots from the slideshow. We did, however, get a demo of a heat map that showed property appreciation over time. That was neat, but we only saw the Austin heat map because Phil abruptly ended his presentation without showing the San Antonio heat map.

Red Flag #4: Funneling. In my opinion, their single objective is to get people to sign up for the Big Dog program. On the last day, Sunday, Phil abruptly ended his presentation after the staff asked the room if anyone else was interested in the Big Dog program and got no responses.

Red Flag #5: The Push For Ignorance. That sounds pretty strong, right? Throughout the weekend we were constantly reminded “You don’t need to know everything, you just need to find someone that does.” This means you are always relying on someone else instead of learning how to do it yourself. My takeaway was that the underlying message is “You don’t have to know anything, you just need to sign up for our program so you rely on someone else to tell you what to do.” This works for some people, but not for me. I know I don’t have to know everything, and I already have various subject matter experts in my network.

An additional note about the abruptness:

We attended different REIA events in December and met up with several folks who attended the same Big Live Event. They were confused by the abrupt ending as well, and asked each other "Is it over?" Their biggest complaints were: (1) that he told too many stories and dragged them out too long, and (2) they didn't get much value from the weekend in general. Before attending this event, I searched BiggerPockets for mentions of this event. I found lots of posts, and noted that another attendee complained about Phil abruptly ending his presentation when it was apparent no more Big Dog signups were occurring.

An additional note on RENC Meetings:

We went to 2 meetings last year. I didn't get much value out of them and discontinued my membership at the end of the year. They are geared toward newbies. All the important content is gate-locked (i.e. for Big Dogs only). The main value I would get from being part of RENC is the email list-serve for pitching deals. In contrast, I attended REAPS (in Seattle) for many years and got tons of value there, both in education and in networking. RENC is the most disappointing REIA meeting experience I have ever been to. For veterans, don't waste your time unless you are looking to network with newbies. For newbies, go check it out and decide for yourself. Then check out other REIAs and network with everyone you can.

Conclusions:

1. For me, the Big Dog Program is not worth it at this time. It simply is not in alignment with how we do things. VIP was a waste of money. There are other programs and coaches out there that teach the same concepts that don’t cost as much. I already have a large network that I spent years building.

2. For those new to real estate, do your own due diligence and trust your gut. My gut was wrenching when I was briefly considering signing up for the Big Dog Program.

3. If you do commit to their program, you may very well be successful. There are students in that program that seem to be doing very well. The “time compression” concept does sound very appealing, and might be worth it for you. If you can afford to spend $20K to $50K to learn things such that you can avoid making $20K to $50K mistakes on your deals, then that’s great. Go for it.

Originally posted by @Jason Brown :

Summary: I attended the December 2017 event as a VIP member. Compared to other events I attended over the past 23 years, this had the least usable content and the most red flags. I did not receive “VIP Education,” I did not sign up for the $50,000 Big Dog Program, and I was invisible to them once my decision not to sign up was known. I think there is some value to what they teach, but not for what they charge. The main value to me would be the networking with other Big Dogs, as they condition their Big Dogs to not engage with non-Big Dogs, but it’s not worth $50K to me for the “privilege” of networking with others.

Details: The following submission is based on me and my fiancee’s observations and experiences for Phil’s Big Live Event on Dec 1-3, 2017. My intention is not to write a hit piece, but rather share my experience being there.

Part 1: The VIP Experience

We paid $1000 to be VIPs. My expectations upon signing up for VIP were that we would receive exclusive insights, education, and access to Phil and Shenoah. We got a limo-van tour of 3 properties, we had snacks and some class time at Phil’s mansion, we got hotel food in a private meeting room, and we got a steak dinner at Perry’s Steakhouse and Grill.

Expectation #1: Insights

We heard stories of students’ deals. During the first day introductions of all the VIP members, it became apparent to me that everyone else was a newbie, and I was by far the most veteran investor there. Nothing stands out to me as far as Insights that was worth $1000.

Expectation #2: Education

There was no exclusive strategy or seller negotiation tactic or any major lesson taught to us VIP members. We pretty much got the same content as everyone else in the room, who didn’t pay $1000. What was severely lacking the entire weekend was any detailed information about how to go out and find these deals. I’m not talking about a powerpoint bullet about “pre-foreclosures” or “probate.” I’m talking about more granular steps: which website to go to, what search filters to use, what areas to focus on; I’ve attended other coaches’ classes that did provide this level of granularity, and the price-to-content ratio was well worth it.

Expectation #3: Access

I did not witness much effort on Phil or Shenoah’s part to individually build relationships with the VIP members. I felt that all the activities and discussions were intended to funnel people into the Big Dog Program.

Part 2: My Red Flags from being an attendee

Red Flag #1: Grooming. I felt that the entire class was being groomed to sign up for the Big Dog Program. We would frequently be told “It’s not what it costs you, it’s what it makes you.” On the one hand, yes, that makes sense. If you spend $3000/month on direct mail marketing, it might make you $30,000 from a deal you get from that marketing. If you spend $50,000 on the Big Dog Program, it might make you $50,000 on your first deal. Or it might make you nothing (if you take no action or give up too soon). Or it might make you $50,000 over the course of a year or two. On the other hand, I saw it as a way to get people to do mental gymnastics in their head to justify taking a large financial risk for a coaching program.

Red Flag #2: Exclusion. They strongly discourage all attendees from listening to experienced investors (EI) that aren't in the Big Dog Program: The EI could give them bad information; The EI thinks he knows it all; The EI is dangerous and is not to be trusted; The worst advice is Bad Trusted Advice. That last one does make sense in certain contexts, but can be used to dissuade newbies from talking to EIs. What I got out of this is that they want full control of information flow to their newbies. Also, by segregating Big Dogs from non-Big Dogs at the REIA events and the like, they create great value in providing exclusive access to the veteran Big Dogs.

Red Flag #3: No Software Demos. I’m a software guy - my career was in games and software testing. If one of the major selling points of a coaching program is a software ecosystem, then I expect to see reasonable real-time demonstrations of how the software works before I commit any money to that program. We didn’t get any demos of the software. We only got some screenshots from the slideshow. We did, however, get a demo of a heat map that showed property appreciation over time. That was neat, but we only saw the Austin heat map because Phil abruptly ended his presentation without showing the San Antonio heat map.

Red Flag #4: Funneling. In my opinion, their single objective is to get people to sign up for the Big Dog program. On the last day, Sunday, Phil abruptly ended his presentation after the staff asked the room if anyone else was interested in the Big Dog program and got no responses.

Red Flag #5: The Push For Ignorance. That sounds pretty strong, right? Throughout the weekend we were constantly reminded “You don’t need to know everything, you just need to find someone that does.” This means you are always relying on someone else instead of learning how to do it yourself. My takeaway was that the underlying message is “You don’t have to know anything, you just need to sign up for our program so you rely on someone else to tell you what to do.” This works for some people, but not for me. I know I don’t have to know everything, and I already have various subject matter experts in my network.

An additional note about the abruptness:

We attended different REIA events in December and met up with several folks who attended the same Big Live Event. They were confused by the abrupt ending as well, and asked each other "Is it over?" Their biggest complaints were: (1) that he told too many stories and dragged them out too long, and (2) they didn't get much value from the weekend in general. Before attending this event, I searched BiggerPockets for mentions of this event. I found lots of posts, and noted that another attendee complained about Phil abruptly ending his presentation when it was apparent no more Big Dog signups were occurring.

An additional note on RENC Meetings:

We went to 2 meetings last year. I didn't get much value out of them and discontinued my membership at the end of the year. They are geared toward newbies. All the important content is gate-locked (i.e. for Big Dogs only). The main value I would get from being part of RENC is the email list-serve for pitching deals. In contrast, I attended REAPS (in Seattle) for many years and got tons of value there, both in education and in networking. RENC is the most disappointing REIA meeting experience I have ever been to. For veterans, don't waste your time unless you are looking to network with newbies. For newbies, go check it out and decide for yourself. Then check out other REIAs and network with everyone you can.

Conclusions:

1. For me, the Big Dog Program is not worth it at this time. It simply is not in alignment with how we do things. VIP was a waste of money. There are other programs and coaches out there that teach the same concepts that don’t cost as much. I already have a large network that I spent years building.

2. For those new to real estate, do your own due diligence and trust your gut. My gut was wrenching when I was briefly considering signing up for the Big Dog Program.

3. If you do commit to their program, you may very well be successful. There are students in that program that seem to be doing very well. The “time compression” concept does sound very appealing, and might be worth it for you. If you can afford to spend $20K to $50K to learn things such that you can avoid making $20K to $50K mistakes on your deals, then that’s great. Go for it.

I was at one of the Grove's REIA evenings a few months back and I have to say that I didn't jump on the bandwagon either. I started doing fix & flips in Seattle in the late '90s after a long gig in the software industry. The info the Groves provided at the REIA was "okay" for someone new to the industry but I've always rejected the notion that one can learn enough from "group training" unless there is sufficient time walking each individual through 4 or 5 transactions. That didn't really seem to be what they were offering. I took it they were looking for accredited investors for larger projects.

I went to meet people and find Joint Venture partners, so it wasn't a waste of time. Now I've got two partners, one in Austin and one in San Antonio and am looking for one in Dallas. Since Texas has some laws that differ from Seattle, the Groves were useful in connecting me with an attorney and escrow company. Did I pay $50,000 to be a "Big Dog"? No. Would I pay to be a "Big Dog"? " No. I think it was $20 for the REIA meeting and meeting the people was everything I was looking for.

@Jason Brown insert any guru name and the method is always the same. Draw you in with a free or low cost event. The event gives you a little nibble and is designed to recruit you for the expensive program. The guru is billed as an expert, but they make all their money through these programs. 

Someone once explained it logically to me. If a guru could truly make the kind of money in real estate that they advertise in their program, why would they spend any time teaching a program?

@Jason Brown

Thank you for the fantastic review. I have not personally attended any of the Groves' "Big Live Event" seminars. However, I attended one of their regular monthly REIA/RENC meetings here in Austin several years ago, experienced a shortened version of exactly what you describe, and never went back.

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock :

@Jason Brown insert any guru name and the method is always the same. Draw you in with a free or low cost event. The event gives you a little nibble and is designed to recruit you for the expensive program. The guru is billed as an expert, but they make all their money through these programs. 

Someone once explained it logically to me. If a guru could truly make the kind of money in real estate that they advertise in their program, why would they spend any time teaching a program?

 That's a play out of the tried and true MLM lifestyle.... the successful ones make a huge chunk from promoting their success and offering to train/teach......for a fee.

Matt K.

They got at least 15 people to sign up for the Big Dog Program that day.

At $20K minimum, that's a $300K payday. I suspect at least 2 ponied up $50K.

When the staff interrupted the presentation on Sunday for a "roll-call" of certain names (i.e. every VIP sitting at the front row table, except for me, and a handful of non-VIPs), I couldn't help but smirk as I was the only one still seated at the "wall of shame" so that Phil could see exactly who didn't sign up. I got up a few minutes later to stand in the back, because I felt a bit uncomfortable being the only one in front. We were VIPs, but now we were no longer able to go into the VIP room. It was now a Big Dog room.

I have also attended one of the Big Live Event's as a VIP. I had mostly the same experience as you, @Jason Brown , but with a different perspective. I did not experience the abruptness, or the discouragement of taking advice from EIs, but it was certainly all about putting everyone in attendance in the mindset to be willing to drop tens of thousands on the Big Dog program. That said, I found the event to be worth my time and money. I took a number of things away from that event, most notably an "abundance mentality". I wouldn't drop the $1000 unless you have money to spend, but the event is free for non-VIPs.

I also know someone who has completed the Big Dog program, and was overall happy with their experience. As you pointed out, you can be successful in this program, and you can be successful on your own. They're offering you a bit of a shortcut, but the problem these days is, they're offering many many other folks the same shortcut. Their program is very popular.

I will say that their REIA/RENC events are mostly a waste of time once you see what they're all about, with the exception of Shenoah's "state of the union" talk, which she does at the beginning of each year. That talk is well done and useful.

@Joe Splitrock , the reason these guys offer a mentoring program is because they no loner have to do any marketing. Their students are bringing them every deal they find to partner with them. Not only do they eliminate their marketing expense, people are paying them thousands of dollars to market on their behalf.

@Jason Brown thank you for the through review. I attended their free meeting in November of 2016 and initially did sign up for the big live event.

I then got home, and checked here on BP for feedback about Phil grove (as well as general internet searches) and didn’t like what I saw.

I had given them my CC info at the free event but they didn’t process it until the next day, by which time I had cancelled the card. I knew if that payment went through I’d never get it back.

Since then I’ve bought a couple properties on my own, listened to most the BP podcasts and learned plenty for what I’m doing right now (simple conventional financed rentals)

I’ve even had investors show me flips and properties for free, just by me asking. All of this was either free or cost no more than a few hundred dollars.

For newbies in dfw or Austin, please be careful if you attend their free event. There is plenty of great REIAs out there for networking and learning. I just wouldn’t recommend this as one of them.

Hi, 

In my first event (FREE) today we were told that it is not possible to learn from books/seminars since they are not Local. I do understand that real estate has lot of laws which are specific to a state and/or area. 

However I think core concepts remain the same. 

So I will try to increase my real estate knowledge by meeting up with other people in Austin area and reading books/podcasts. 

What other events, REIA or meetups in Austin would you recommend?

Anytime a Propelio event occurs in Austin, you should check it out. It has great content, the speakers don't try to sell you anything, and it's a great networking opportunity. You might want to also consider attending their events in San Antonio as well.

Wow Jason, thanks for the review and heads up on the Propelio event.

Thank you for posting this! You saved me a weekend.

I'm also wondering if there is another REIA in Austin. I did not enjoy the salesy vibe of this one (https://austinrenc.com/). 

Zack

FYI, this post is the top search result for 'The Big Live Event Austin' :-) 

@Zachary Sexton try investor underground, cash flow party, or QuestIRA trillion dollar meet up.

These meet ups are informational while not being a 45 minute - an hour pitch to join some group for tens of thousands of dollars.

@Michael Lam Thank you! I’m putting these in my calendar now. Which ones do you attend? I’d love to buy you a drink and hear more about your brokerage.

@Zachary Sexton my agents are at all of them! We sponsor Investor Underground and Quest

@Jason Brown Thank you for the heads up. I’m actually a newbie and honestly everything you just mentioned is up to the point. This is day 2 of the Big event that I registered and they haven’t even covered half off what they mentioned in they’re presentation. As far as they taught us up until today was nothing but 3 strategies out of the 12 (buy & hold, fix & flip and home swap) which was good information. Currently Quest company just did their presentation about joining and ask us to do an account today. As long as i know i came here to experience a productive learning about how to start on RE but instead I’m starting to get the gig of having to pay more for learning and using resources that they promised. I just want to get in the business and very enthusiastic to start but I’m kind of disappointed of how the big event is going so far. 

Does anyone have a recommendation for a REIA in Houston besides the Phil Grove group?

I haven’t gone yet, but I heard that jetlending puts-on a very large real estate meeting once a month in Sugar Land. I’m hoping to check it out in August. 

I just attended the course this weekend. I do have to say that I did get something out of it, and I met some other investors. That did make it somewhat worthwhile, but, like it has been mentioned in this post, Phil's stories went on for forever. What I learned in Day 2 (which is when they do the Big Dog Pitch and try to send everyone up) could have been summed up in 10 minutes. Overall, I would prefer to have my time back. The useful information could have been covered in a day or less. I did not sign up for the Big Dog program. I am too wary of scams, but they did have 20 or so people that did. I did think about it and have still not ruled it out. I feel that I can learn what I need on my own and through BP and other resources out there. If a program like this could get you on a rate of making 20-30K a month in 2-6 months, instead of 1 year or longer, it would be worth it, though.

One thing I have noticed in the posts on here is a lot of negative comments about the Live event, but I don't see any Big Dogs on here complaining. I did see quite a few coming to the program's defense on a post. I'm just thinking that if they were scamming 20 people a weekend, you would see a lot more people talking about how they were ripped off. I mean, when I have an awful dining experience (really awful...not just bad), I'll post it on 2-3 sites. If someone took me for 20-50K, I would have posted it on every site known to man and sued the Groves. Maybe I have not researched enough

@Matthew Gullo has a good meetup. 

@Cody L. thank you. 

Our meet up is:

H.I.T.(Houston Investment Team) Houston's Inner Loop B.P. Meet Up

we will be doing one later in August. Check the events page, we have a private Facebook group, or you can message me and I’ll email you when the next event is scheduled.

It's a solid program. Took it years ago. Still benefitting.

@Nathan Rice did you do the big dog program? I would love to hear your experience. Can I call you sometime? (pm me your number if you are open to discuss)

I am going through the 3 day workshop with Phil Grove this week end. Today was the end of day 2. I think I learned a lot and conceptually it makes sense what’s been discussed although as others I think $20k at a minimum level for the program is A lot to pay . Yes if I can make let’s say 40-50k in first 6 months it makes sense.. but again it’s uncertain as they say the results discussed are not typical. The flip side to this is when u pay such big money to join the program, you will be motivated to work harder to make that back and plus more.. I love the prospect of having  access to proven process, tools techniques and a solid network, Coach  etc.. so I haven’t ruled it out yet but may be in a few months I may decide. Good thing is there is no pressure to sign up for this program. 

So today was day 2 of the 3 day Phil Grove's Big Live Event 2019, it is crazy how the opening post is from 2017 and now in 2019, NOTHING HAS CHANGED. This opening post is so on point and correct. I joined the REIA and was told about all of the information I would gain at this event but instead I was given a bunch of repetitive speeches all leading to sell me into the Big Dog Program. Since I am new at this I did learn a little but the knowledge was nothing different than what I would gain form the Bigger Pockets podcast. As a matter of fact I definitely have learned more from bigger pockets than I have this whole weekend.

2021 now and still the same problem. It is branded as a Texas REIA and my goal was to attend my first REIA meeting this January. Very disappointed to have wasted 25+ hours being funneled into a $50,000 program when I was just looking for a community and some knowledge. I'll admit he gave some good stories here and there, but not much knowledge I haven't read 3-4x from books written years ago. If you attend a "Texas REIA's" meeting.. just beware.