Sean Whalen and property 23
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if anyone has ever herd of this guru Sean Whalen who is the owner of what used to be the Empower Group and is now called property 23? From the research I have done he looks like another marketing guy. His background is in being an amateur fighter in the mixed martial arts world. I guess he couldn't make his big debut there so he decided to get into real estate. What he offers is properties he will sell you at wholesale and even help you find an end buyer. It starts to smell like BS because why would he not just find his own end buyer? Another thing that makes it smell like BS is the fact that he will allow you to purchase his property on a credit card. He has vacant properties he will sell you that you can flip and others occupied by tenants for a rental income and hold property. He does a lot of the hype claims as the other gurus. Personally I do not believe that this is real because if he has the ability to obtain all these properties why would he not just line up his own end buyers and get rid of them or become a landlord himself? Instead he has created this group in which he will sell you the properties and his staff is suppose to hold your hand through the whole process to help you gain the knowledge and confidence you need to do these deals.
What I have read on the internet is his company hires college grads who are paid on a high commission bases from any product they sell. Not sure if there is any truth to the claims or not. There are claims out there that also state that these college grads are doing high pressure sales in real estate for the high commissions and are not licensed as Realtor in any state they sell. Not sure if any of the things I read are true or not.
If he truly has properties he is wholesaling then I may be interested in taking a closer look. Right now though it smells like too much BS. Therefore before I look behind the curtain and have to find out at a high cost that it is nothing more than smoke and mirrors I would like to know if anyone has had any type of experience with him or his company?
Hey Bryan,
Thanks for lovin' the passion. lol I hope Mr. Whalen surprises us all here too and comes back doing the right thing... but I too feel we will never see him again. - Well... maybe a year or two from now under an alias name, yet again defending his 'good name' with a different company. Seems he has a rep to just try to make money without regards to how many people he screws. Hopefully he will finally understand that NO business succeeds if it is based on deception and dishonesty.
Audley - I love this about BP too. Fraudulent, slick, smooth talking bad biz people get exposed here.
Bryan and Joel - I won't go into the 'exposed' issue. I will follow Audley's lead and take your words for it. :-) hee hee
I hate people getting screwed over period. What bothers me is that someone told him about this post/thread and that is the ONLY reason why he even came on here. Im just glad that just about everyone on here seems to be good people and enjoys helping others. From posting, to seeing properties, to talking on the phone, ext.
Some people may find to much "exposure" here. Seeing all revealed is not always pretty. - lol
I will post periodic updates as to how Sean's company handles the issues in the previous post and that specific buyer.
Maybe I'll even take on their some of the other interesting items, like their contract (the clauses are a riot), the use of quit claim deeds, etc.
I will post periodic updates as to how Sean's company handles the issues in the previous post and that specific buyer.Maybe I'll even take on their some of the other interesting items, like their contract (the clauses are a riot), the use of quit claim deeds, etc.
Darrin - if you have the ability to do that, I feel it would be beneficial to expose what Property23 and Sean Whalen is doing. There are a lot of people who come to this site just to absorb info and never even create a profile. It could save hundreds of others from getting scammed.
I don't look at it as 'bashing' a person, I am not into that. However, I do look at it as getting the word out on a company and the man behind it that intentionally does fraudulent business by grossly misleading advertising and strong arm sales pitches.
If I remember correctly, there is a certain part in this forum for warnings on certain 'gurus', products, programs and companies. That would be a good place to continue this thread. Title it Sean Whalen and Property 23.
I was talking to the buyer the other day and he has still been kept from talking to the boss and are still giving him a run around and telling him that they have not lost a law suit against them to date. (more or less telling the buyer not to even try because they will win - they know by experience). This is very telling information as it stands - how many other before this buyer have they swindled??
Just throwing this out there to the BP community, is there anything that can be done on a whole here, not just with THIS buyer, but all the buyers that this company has intentionally mislead. Have like all of them stand together and file one big suit? Not immediate gratification, but...
This company seems to be getting thru a lot of loopholes, surely their contracts, etc can not be that ironclad. Do we have any lateral thinkers out there? :idea:
I hate people getting screwed over period. What bothers me is that someone told him about this post/thread and that is the ONLY reason why he even came on here. Im just glad that just about everyone on here seems to be good people and enjoys helping others. From posting, to seeing properties, to talking on the phone, ext.
Thorney - If you do some research, you will find it is uncanny that he shows up anywhere there is a complaint about him. BP was no exception. Most people are voicing their complaints on small boards that never get looked at. This time he tried to take on the BP members and they know BS when it is around.
Yes, BP has great people that contribute their knowledge and time and we all appreciate it. I am sure that the newer members are striving to follow in the footsteps and contribute their knowledge, as they get it, in the future. That is just how good people work. You give of yourself. What goes around ultimately comes around. :wink:
I believe he is using technology that enables him to flag any comment that is posted on the internet about him. This is how he is finding all the postings. Everywhere I have looked at complaints he has been there giving a rebuttal. He is using tactics that image consultants use. It is effective to a degree or at least until you try those same tactics here.
What I have discovered is that any guru or company coming out of Utah, concerning real estate or investing, has a significantly better chance of being a scam then coming from other states. It may be because of the absence of certain laws, it seems as though it may be easier in Utah to do these types of scams then in other states. Not sure of the reason but statistically the state of Utah holds a higher percentage of these types of companies and gurus then any other state. Utah also has the highest amount of adult website subscribers compared to any other state. Not sure what one has to do with the other but I figured I throw it in anyway. :D
I wish I had thought to look for info on Property23 before I bought.
I bought property from Sean Whalen and I feel ripped off. I let them know I wanted to resell it rather than rent it out, so they "helped" me pick a property. I've had no luck selling it. A management company told me that it wasn't in a good area and recently sold for $8,000 and I paid $25,000. That doesn't sound like a haircut to me. This was almost all the money in my IRA. I thought I would be able to build it back up. Now it looks like I may lose most of it. The day after I bought it, I did a Realtor.com search (I know, should have done it before, but it was high pressure sales) and found many properties for $5-6K. When I asked about that, I was told mine was in a better area and was "free of encumbrances". That was just to get me passed the 3 day rescission period. I would not recommend anyone to use these people. I feel they lied to me and are only out to make money at any cost.
@Deborah
Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I was fortunate as this was not my first rodeo show. When they started with the high pressure and asking me how much money I had available on my credit cards to purchase property, a big red flag went up. For me I saw the scam and did not get caught in it. This was from getting burned on other deals that made me have the foresight. There are so many people out there that just want to take your money and offer nothing in return for it. Unfortunately, there very limited places you can go to online to find true information. This is one of those places but not always is this forum found in time. The real sad part for my experience with him was that he was referred to me by someone who I thought was straight shooter. Unfortunately, I think he just endorsed him for kickbacks and now he looks bad because of it, but he could have also been smoothed talked by him into believing he had a great product to offer his clients and stood behind the dog he was fed. In any case the biggest rule I have lived by is, desperate moves makes desperate mistakes. The fact that you drained your IRA for this move without leaving something for the future tells me that you were caught up in thinking you could make a great payday. Great pays are only done by your own fruits of labor. Nobody would give that up to someone else. In this market the most realistic return would be about 10% and that is if you are lucky. The only way you can make more then that is if you are a turn around person. That would be buying a B property in C property condition and then turning it to a B property condition. You must be able to do the work yourself. Prior to buying the property you must be able to do a full inspection. The days of buying properties sight unseen are over. I hope you can recover your money and I wish you luck in pursuing your justice.
http://www.johntreed.com/BSchecklist.html
Im not sure if im able to post this link if not it can be removed but thought this is a good article for this discussion of "gurus"
Obviously, Sean Whalen is not replying. I'm going to ask the buyers permission to post the full and very specific details here.
@Deborah - sounds like you may have a good case for a fraud lawsuit. Several investors out here have filed a lawsuit for similar tactics.
http://www.housingwire.com/2010/07/12/reo-investors-sue-for-losses-in-alleged-scam
Regarding the original post, I own multifamily property in Ogden, and I am not very happy with the returns. The tenants are low quality, low income, unreliable, and for some unknown reason, many of them are felons.
Turn over is very high. Leases are not an option. The tenants like month to month so they can vacate quickly, which they do quite often. There are many better places in the country to invest and I won't be buying there again.
@Aaron Thanks for the link.
We invest in Multifamily in our local area, Dayton, Ohio and the local region. The cashflow is great. Need to be careful with tenants though. I know others here with the same problem as you. Location is a large part, but good management and screening greatly reduces the problem. Our average tenant stays 3 years or more.
@Deborah, Sorry about what happened to you. Thanks for sharing your experience. As Aaron mentioned, you could file a lawsuit. I got a call from Lisa Swanger from Property23 and she also sent me an email asking to respond to some questions as they work with "only" those "select" people who are motivated to be successful :wink:
As usual, I buy real estate courses ( and systems) only after doing a lot of research on the company. I wanted to thank BP members for this discussion and also for posting a link about Sean Whalen's bankruptcy. That information helps.
@Cody, I have read John T Reed's review. Many of them are good but he seems old school. After every negative review, he would post a link to one of his related products so sometimes I feel like he is trying to sell his products. He criticizes every creative real estate author. Creative real estate works but it needs a lot hard work and communication. If it were that easy everybody would be doing it! Also, in pre-foreclosure investing, Thomas J. Lucier's book is regarded as the best and most realistic depiction of how much you can earn (Lucier doesn't talk millions rather he talks about making $60K a year part time in the first year and this is realistic). John Reed has criticized Thomas J. Lucier as well! So, I am not sure if I would trust all the reviews of John Reed.
Anyways, I'll stop researching about Property23 - Sounds too good to be true!!! I'm too busy to get involved with Property23.
Thanks guys for all the comments on Property23!!!
I filed a BBB complaint, not that it will do me much good. When I searched BBB, I didn't find anything, now people should. They required 3 prompts to reply and it was full of lies. "We were polite to Deborah; It's in this area; it's near this country club." I don't understand people like this.
I'm new to real estate investing and I certainly have no dog in this fight, but I'm wondering why anyone would buy a house without driving the neighborhood and inspecting the house themselves. If this guy is ripping people off, I'm getting the impression that it's only because his "victims" are trusting him with regards to the condition and value of the property rather than doing doing their own due diligence.
Am I wrong?
Regards,
Mark
I am a Realtor in Dayton, Ohio. This is one of the most underpriced markets in the US. This means you can buy decent real estate at low prices. The problem with this is that you also end up having to sell at rock bottom prices. This is not a good buy and flip market, but it is a good buy and hold market.
I don't know Sean Whalen personally, but I have an intimate knowledge of the Empower Group and its successor, Property 23. I do the property management for many of their buyers. I also find myself having to help them pick up the pieces of the "deals" that they purchased. Too often they buy overpriced properties in poor rental neighborhoods. These houses are purchased based on pictures they have been provided, not based on their own, or a third party's visual inspection. First rule of doing your due diligence is to see the property yourself. Second rule is to have a competent Contractor or expirienced Rehabber/Realtor do a thorough inspection and provide a detailed estimate of the repairs needed. Ronald Reagan said "Trust, but verify." I say Just Verify!
Most of the investors who have purchased houses from Empower Group/Property 23 tell me that they were assured that the houses were either rent ready, easily rehabbable or had been rehabbed. Some also tell me that they were subjected to a high pressure sales pitch where lots of promises about cash flow and marketability were discussed. None of the promises that they received were in writing. Real Estate transactions are limited to what is written, verbal assurances are not considered in a Court of Law.
My cautions here are not limited to Empower Group/Property 23 and their business dealings. If you are buying real estate anywhere in the US, buy an airline ticket and visit the property before you finalize the purchase. A $500 air fare may end up saving you $20,000. If you can't fly out and see the property, hire a Realtor/Property Manager from the area to be your eyes. I take a dozen or more photos of properties for prospective investors and I don't act as the Buyer's Agent in any transaction so as to prevent any conflict of interest.
I liken the real estate investing market as a large ocean. Lots of oppotunities, also lots of sharks ready to eat you.
Yes I have heard of him. Bought a house from him. It has been a nightmare from day one. Do not work with this person! MAJOR SCAMMER!!!!
working under a new name now http://marquisinvestmentproperties.com/
and was blue mountain group before property 23
What a real slime bag, i hope you can live with yourself. I have worked with over twenty people you have screwed over in Kansas city to right your wrongs. Taking peoples savings and giving them dumps that weren't even rehabbed for 25,000. Keep your scamming BS in Utah!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Kyler Rice:
working under a new name now http://marquisinvestmentproperties.com/
and was blue mountain group before property 23
Can you please verify this info? I checked out their website. It shows that the CEO is Chad Deucher and not Sean Whalen.
I didn't find any definitive answer, but there are a lot of similarities and enough "coincidences" to make me wonder.
As with any real estate investment, you must evaluate the property and the deal independently, and NOT rely on any representations given by the seller, even if it's me.
It amazes me at the number of people I talk to that will spend tens of thousands of dollars on real estate, but not spend a few hundred bucks to look at it themselves and have it inspected.
I have seen people buy property and not want to spend the $300 on a home inspection. Others who purchased a house and for additional $400 can have a home warranty that covers everything in the home in case of breakage and would not pay for it. Then of course they get into the property and find all these problems, which end up costing them thousands. Save a few hundred to pay thousands later. I see it all the time and it never makes any sense to me.
I am seeing more and more people buying property sight unseen. It makes no sense and this why people like Sean can get away with what he does.
You might just be better off saving some more money to buy a better quality property than purchasing a problem.
Some investors play int he war zone space and can make it work but very few.An out of state investor I would caution to not get into those types of properties from a far distance.
This is my first post but i'm glad this forum is here to expose people like Sean Whalen. He is in my area doing a Series called "Detroit Summit" & "Buy Flip Win" is his new company i guess. I've been doing a lot of research on this real estate business, and all of it's "Gurus" and "experts" but this guy is the WORST of them i seen so far. He comes off as nice and skilled, along with testemonials of people he is working with in his "process", but the things i see in this forum are totally different from his character he presents. Thank you so Much BP