Contractor requesting 50% Upfront

192 Replies

I am a Contractor and Landlord .  There are so similar . I supply the lease to the tenant , and I supply the contract to the customer .  A security deposit and first months rent is collected at lease signing for a tenant . With a customer they sign the contract and we get 1/3 down to get on the schedule .  Tenant has no money for rent ....eviction , customer has no money for second draw , no work . 

I think its funny when I hear ,"dont give a contractor anything up front "  You buy the materials , Charge the contractor if the job runs over .  These people are not hiring licensed professional contracting businesses .

In my world as a contractor , The customer signs MY contract  ( its 25 pages plus work details) . We supply all the materials ( and we mark them up too ) . It there is a change order ( and there always is )  its paid up front , AND days are  added to the completion time .  We get 1/3 down ( as allowed per Maryland law ) each and every time . 

The job actually starts 5 days after the contract is signed , even though we wont be on site for another 5 weeks . We are ordering supplies , setting up subs , permits , etc .  Now by the time we place foot on the property we have spent a good chunk of that deposit . So after 1 week we get the second third .  the final third is broken down weekly .  There are no freebies or "while you are heres " if its not in the contract its an extra . Any delays caused by the customer , cost the customer . 

A professional contractor NEVER finances a customers project , thats what banks , hard money or savings are for . A Professional never lets the customer get behind on payments or uses their funds or credit to do a customers job .  When we hear " I dont pay deposits " I am actually hearing " I am going to screw you on this job " . Contracting is a lot about managing risk , as long as you dont let the customer run behind in payments your risk is minimal .  If you dont trust a contractor DO NOT HIRE THEM . Good contractors are never the cheapest , the cheap guys go out of business quickly . Do a background check on the contractor , because as a contractor I do them on my customers . ( liens , judgements , criminal , lawsuits ) . 

 Like others have said . the amount of shady contractors out there is equal to the amount of shady customers . 

Originally posted by @Stephen Gallagher :

@Victor S.

You are welcome to that opinion, but it is no different than a first time investor piggy backing on someone else's deal or using someone else's money for their investment.

It is all perspective.

When I first started my electrical business I had nothing. I used every tool in the box and offered them all to my customers. I let them buy materials, I let them shop with me, I even let them help me. My money should not be funding your project.

Starting any business is a leap of faith and if you want to succeed you will do whatever it takes to keep forward progress. Being upfront, honest, and open, have been the keys to my success. Most legitimate negotiations have a give and take.

1/3 deposit, 1/3 at rough inspection , 1/3 at finish inspection is a great model on most bath, kitchen, addition jobs 3-10K. More than that the draw schedule is a good practice.

I often remind myself there are three sides to every story, ours, theirs and the real one.

I am appreciative to those customers that were easy going enough, and trusting enough to help get my electrical business afloat. Knowing my customer base also afforded me the ability to conduct business and reap the rewards of many satisfying referrals.

StephenGallagher

 I see your point regarding leverage/piggy bank investors.  

I wanted to let you know the leverage we have over $0 or little down payment against the risk of some mediocre contractor not finishing on time, or stealing our money up-front is worth discussing.  

Not all investors are the same, nor all contractors are the same.  But truth is , there is an additional risk for the investors to put that sum up-front without means of enforcing them to comply with the contract.  

Is easier for the contractor to go after delinquent investors (at least he/she knows he own something and you can find them), is harder for us to go after contractors, especially small ones. 

Think about your business and let me know what will you do in this scenario: You are about to subcontract part of the electrical work for duct bank installation in given property (trenches, PVC pipes, and concrete encasement, some manholes or junction boxes). Your sub ask for 50% up-front, but you couldn't verify his experience and you have never done business with them, is cheap, and is not a recognized contractor. Will you pay him 50% up-front? 

Would giving him the opportunity to flourish in his business and taking away 50% of your money for his job to do a good investment?  Maybe yes, he might be a good individual driven from great ethic values.  If not, that represent you are likely to loose money on you job, spending more time, fixing things, and a headache trying to get your money back. 

Originally posted by @Matthew Paul :

I am a Contractor and Landlord .  There are so similar . I supply the lease to the tenant , and I supply the contract to the customer .  A security deposit and first months rent is collected at lease signing for a tenant . With a customer they sign the contract and we get 1/3 down to get on the schedule .  Tenant has no money for rent ....eviction , customer has no money for second draw , no work . 

I think its funny when I hear ,"dont give a contractor anything up front "  You buy the materials , Charge the contractor if the job runs over .  These people are not hiring licensed professional contracting businesses .

In my world as a contractor , The customer signs MY contract  ( its 25 pages plus work details) . We supply all the materials ( and we mark them up too ) . It there is a change order ( and there always is )  its paid up front , AND days are  added to the completion time .  We get 1/3 down ( as allowed per Maryland law ) each and every time . 

The job actually starts 5 days after the contract is signed , even though we wont be on site for another 5 weeks . We are ordering supplies , setting up subs , permits , etc .  Now by the time we place foot on the property we have spent a good chunk of that deposit . So after 1 week we get the second third .  the final third is broken down weekly .  There are no freebies or "while you are heres " if its not in the contract its an extra . Any delays caused by the customer , cost the customer . 

A professional contractor NEVER finances a customers project , thats what banks , hard money or savings are for . A Professional never lets the customer get behind on payments or uses their funds or credit to do a customers job .  When we hear " I dont pay deposits " I am actually hearing " I am going to screw you on this job " . Contracting is a lot about managing risk , as long as you dont let the customer run behind in payments your risk is minimal .  If you dont trust a contractor DO NOT HIRE THEM . Good contractors are never the cheapest , the cheap guys go out of business quickly . Do a background check on the contractor , because as a contractor I do them on my customers . ( liens , judgements , criminal , lawsuits ) . 

 Like others have said . the amount of shady contractors out there is equal to the amount of shady customers . 

Well Said.

Originally posted by @Josue Vargas :

Think about your business and let me know what will you do in this scenario: You are about to subcontract part of the electrical work for duct bank installation in given property (trenches, PVC pipes, and concrete encasement, some manholes or junction boxes). Your sub ask for 50% up-front, but you couldn't verify his experience and you have never done business with them, is cheap, and is not a recognized contractor. Will you pay him 50% up-front? 

I would do my due diligence and vetted them out just as I would for a new tenant walking into my property.  I would seek three references minimum, I would ask for their proof of insurance, I would ask for their license information and I might even ask for their financials.  But I know that if they want to remain in business they need to maintain their registration with the states attorneys general, they need to maintain their licenses and they will need to maintain their professionalism or go out of business.  I think the saving grace in the Electrical and Plumbing is they legitimately need to be licensed and insured to remain in business and if they are not then you don't hire them.  All four states I am licensed to work, you can do a license lookup and check their status.  You can also checkout their online presence with minimal effort, Yelp, Face Book, Better Business Bureau etc.  

So the answer to your question, yes, 50% deposit is normal and I know I have vetted them to the best of my ability.  Depending on the amount of the job, I may also require them to post a Bond.  Work the contract.  If I didn't have time to do all the vetting myself, that is why I would have a vetted GC.

"Not all investors are the same, nor all contractors are the same. But truth is , there is an additional risk for the investors to put that sum up-front without means of enforcing them to comply with the contract."

Risk vs. reward goes both ways.  I have been involved with a couple projects that had over 100K in switch gear and materials.  The bank funding the project rescinded funding after the materials were ordered and contracts were signed.  In addition to having to fight with the investors, the supply houses also had to have further negotiations because of restocking fees.  Thankfully for the contractor I was working for, had all his ducks in a row and a solid contract and the investor was held responsible for all restocking fees.  This job was one of the reasons I started requiring a deposit on all jobs over 3K.  My time is worth money.  My time bidding, my time pulling permits, my time creating contracts, my time on the phone with the investor, my time with the contractors, company meetings and overhead.  All that comes from the deposit.  Phones, Cable, Faxes, Equipment, Utilities Insurance, wages etc.  all need to be paid somehow and that is one place the deposit comes into play.  

Time is money and my time is worth money.  In business to make money not help others reap the rewards from my hard work. 

Originally posted by @Matthew Paul :

  If you dont trust a contractor DO NOT HIRE THEM . 

That right there is the key.  My contractors wants big deposits, no problem. They want full payment up front, Ive got no problem with that even if the law doesnt allow it. They want it all on the back side, no problem.  I have zero fear my contractors are not going to finish the job, and they have zero fear Im not going to pay them. Why? Because Ive been using the same guys for 5, sometimes 10 years.  I know what the cost of a job is roughly, and those guys charge me in the realm of that cost. Im not going out and getting 5 bids, and choosing the the lowest bid whose price is too low, because they are going to charge me more in the end, or not pull permits, or do a ****** job.  My contractors arnt putting me off for months, because Im giving them work year in and year out, and work they are getting paid promptly for, and getting referrals from me. 

Originally posted by @Stephen Gallagher :
Originally posted by @Josue Vargas:

Think about your business and let me know what will you do in this scenario: You are about to subcontract part of the electrical work for duct bank installation in given property (trenches, PVC pipes, and concrete encasement, some manholes or junction boxes). Your sub ask for 50% up-front, but you couldn't verify his experience and you have never done business with them, is cheap, and is not a recognized contractor. Will you pay him 50% up-front? 

I would do my due diligence and vetted them out just as I would for a new tenant walking into my property.  I would seek three references minimum, I would ask for their proof of insurance, I would ask for their license information and I might even ask for their financials.  But I know that if they want to remain in business they need to maintain their registration with the states attorneys general, they need to maintain their licenses and they will need to maintain their professionalism or go out of business.  I think the saving grace in the Electrical and Plumbing is they legitimately need to be licensed and insured to remain in business and if they are not then you don't hire them.  All four states I am licensed to work, you can do a license lookup and check their status.  You can also checkout their online presence with minimal effort, Yelp, Face Book, Better Business Bureau etc.  

So the answer to your question, yes, 50% deposit is normal and I know I have vetted them to the best of my ability.  Depending on the amount of the job, I may also require them to post a Bond.  Work the contract.  If I didn't have time to do all the vetting myself, that is why I would have a vetted GC.

 Just to help out @Alex Varner

I agree with you regarding vetting subs or contractors.  I completely agree with having an extra insurance/bonding company (usually paid by the contractor if required by owner -- contractor will include that cost in proposal) for major work.  But, if you don't know the company you are doing business, is it worth to pay 50% up-front?  I think that is his case in this post.  Is it worth it?  I still believe is not. 

Originally posted by @Josue Vargas :
  But, if you don't know the company you are doing business, is it worth to pay 50% up-front?  I think that is his case in this post.  Is it worth it?  I still believe is not. 

 Then you will have to address your cost over runs and your time delays.  

If the company you are doing business with, is requiring a 50% deposit and you are refusing, then I'd say you are not doing business, you are looking for a different contractor.  

When you can't find one, and realize that the project could be delayed for a long time, don't be surprised, if and when you go back to the original contractor, the price has not gone up significantly for their previous efforts, or they may not even talk with you.

YMMV

Stephen Gallagher

Originally posted by @Russell Brazil :
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

  If you dont trust a contractor DO NOT HIRE THEM . 

That right there is the key.  My contractors wants big deposits, no problem. They want full payment up front, Ive got no problem with that even if the law doesnt allow it. They want it all on the back side, no problem.  I have zero fear my contractors are not going to finish the job, and they have zero fear Im not going to pay them. Why? Because Ive been using the same guys for 5, sometimes 10 years.  I know what the cost of a job is roughly, and those guys charge me in the realm of that cost. Im not going out and getting 5 bids, and choosing the the lowest bid whose price is too low, because they are going to charge me more in the end, or not pull permits, or do a ****** job.  My contractors arnt putting me off for months, because Im giving them work year in and year out, and work they are getting paid promptly for, and getting referrals from me. 

 It may work for you that way because you have established a relationship and on-going business with your contractors.   I do the same with various contractors.  I think it is not the same for people such as @Alex Varner and many other investors that are in their first 2-7 years.  

I think the main issue is why trust a contractor that asked 50% up-front, no previous work done with him, and what he needs to do to secure a job well done with the scarce $1500 down payment.  

After years of trusting contractors, we were very recently burned for tens of thousands of dollars on a flip. After that, we started only doing phone sales for supplies and auditing receipt purchases. We will now pay for materials and 10% of the labor upfront, and offer draws throughout the process as work is being done. Hope that's helpful. If you need any help in the future, just shoot me a direct message. 

Unless you have good contractor relationships in place and a somewhat established track record, this isn't all that uncommon for small to mid-size projects. The relationship works both ways between contractor and investor. I do not however recommend paying 50% up front on a full rehab, house-flip, etc. as there is no reason for this. Try working out a draw schedule with agreed upon milestones and break the project down in this manner. That way all parties can measure progress based on performance and pay as you go. Perhaps 4-6 agreed upon milestones with payment terms exercised with each progressive step. 

I think you'll find that as your volume increases, both you and your contractor(s) should start to become more comfortable working with each other... relationships are key. Be sure and put it all in writing to keep the transaction as transparent as possible for all sides. Fences make good neighbors. 

Originally posted by @Josue Vargas :
Originally posted by @Stephen Gallagher:

@Victor S.

Is easier for the contractor to go after delinquent investors (at least he/she knows he own something and you can find them), is harder for us to go after contractors, especially small ones. 

Think about your business and let me know what will you do in this scenario: You are about to subcontract part of the electrical work for duct bank installation in given property (trenches, PVC pipes, and concrete encasement, some manholes or junction boxes). Your sub ask for 50% up-front, but you couldn't verify his experience and you have never done business with them, is cheap, and is not a recognized contractor. Will you pay him 50% up-front? 

Would giving him the opportunity to flourish in his business and taking away 50% of your money for his job to do a good investment?  Maybe yes, he might be a good individual driven from great ethic values.  If not, that represent you are likely to loose money on you job, spending more time, fixing things, and a headache trying to get your money back. 

Its not easy to go after a delinquent investor , they form a LLC , the property is encumbered with a first and a second , not much to go after .

Going after a professional contractor is easy if you vetted them well . We are local , live in nice neighborhoods , and own our homes . 

On the electrical problem , you answered your own question . Why would you hire and front money to who you cant verify , experience , you dont know them , is cheap , and not a recognized contractor .  If you hired someone like that with those qualifications and you lose money all you can do is look in the mirror 

Alex,

I have been in the remodel and renovation business in Michigan for 25+ years, so this is my 2c. I never start a job for less than 33%, anyone who does has had the great fortune of never having been 'had' by a customer. For smaller jobs, lets say less than $1000, I go 50%. I come with lots of referrals and have never failed to complete, often ahead of schedule, so I would look for more than just a phone number. The reason 50% is justifiable on a smaller job is because by the time you pay for materials, if you get the garage door shut in your face by some one trying to get free work (happens), not only have you just spent days of your life working for free, but you have also purchased the materials for someone. 

@Alex Varner

It depends on the amount of the contract but I would generally accept a maximum good faith deposit of 10-15% upfront only if the company is legit and has many referrals and only if they need materials. I would ask copies of IDs, bond and insurance + a receipt.

You must draft a contract with milestone payments and scrupulously follow it. Never give more money upfront because “his truck needs repairs” or “needs to pay his guys” or other non sense.

Important: Always hold 20-25% of the contract amount until the job is fully completed to your satisfaction. Many contractors bail and leave jobs unfinished as there is too little incentive. People usually have already paid 90 or 100% of the contract at this point so the contractor doesn’t care. The final touch ups and corrections are the most annoying and time consuming so many just disappear and move on to the next job

Good luck

Originally posted by @Matthew Paul :
Originally posted by @Josue Vargas:
Originally posted by @Stephen Gallagher:

@Victor S.

Is easier for the contractor to go after delinquent investors (at least he/she knows he own something and you can find them), is harder for us to go after contractors, especially small ones. 

Think about your business and let me know what will you do in this scenario: You are about to subcontract part of the electrical work for duct bank installation in given property (trenches, PVC pipes, and concrete encasement, some manholes or junction boxes). Your sub ask for 50% up-front, but you couldn't verify his experience and you have never done business with them, is cheap, and is not a recognized contractor. Will you pay him 50% up-front? 

Would giving him the opportunity to flourish in his business and taking away 50% of your money for his job to do a good investment?  Maybe yes, he might be a good individual driven from great ethic values.  If not, that represent you are likely to loose money on you job, spending more time, fixing things, and a headache trying to get your money back. 

Its not easy to go after a delinquent investor , they form a LLC , the property is encumbered with a first and a second , not much to go after .

Going after a professional contractor is easy if you vetted them well . We are local , live in nice neighborhoods , and own our homes . 

On the electrical problem , you answered your own question . Why would you hire and front money to who you cant verify , experience , you dont know them , is cheap , and not a recognized contractor .  If you hired someone like that with those qualifications and you lose money all you can do is look in the mirror 

 Thank you four your response.  Then we are on the same boat (investors and contractors).  You will not put 50% down for a sub you have no trust or vetted out... we do the same.  

@Alex Varner it really depends on scale of the job to be done.

We have had HVAC alone that we paid at completion of jobs.

Multiple items by same contractor may require a draw schedule on hitting those benchmarks.

Larger project you should have it in writing with those benchmarks yo ensure your time table.

Best of luck!

Whether it's a small amount or not don't put half down unless he can prove it is for materials to start the job. If you are hiring him why do you only have his phone number?  Email address, license, insurance, references? 

Originally posted by @Josue Vargas :
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
Originally posted by @Josue Vargas:
Originally posted by @Stephen Gallagher:

@Victor S.

Is easier for the contractor to go after delinquent investors (at least he/she knows he own something and you can find them), is harder for us to go after contractors, especially small ones. 

Think about your business and let me know what will you do in this scenario: You are about to subcontract part of the electrical work for duct bank installation in given property (trenches, PVC pipes, and concrete encasement, some manholes or junction boxes). Your sub ask for 50% up-front, but you couldn't verify his experience and you have never done business with them, is cheap, and is not a recognized contractor. Will you pay him 50% up-front? 

Would giving him the opportunity to flourish in his business and taking away 50% of your money for his job to do a good investment?  Maybe yes, he might be a good individual driven from great ethic values.  If not, that represent you are likely to loose money on you job, spending more time, fixing things, and a headache trying to get your money back. 

Its not easy to go after a delinquent investor , they form a LLC , the property is encumbered with a first and a second , not much to go after .

Going after a professional contractor is easy if you vetted them well . We are local , live in nice neighborhoods , and own our homes . 

On the electrical problem , you answered your own question . Why would you hire and front money to who you cant verify , experience , you dont know them , is cheap , and not a recognized contractor .  If you hired someone like that with those qualifications and you lose money all you can do is look in the mirror 

 Thank you four your response.  Then we are on the same boat (investors and contractors).  You will not put 50% down for a sub you have no trust or vetted out... we do the same.  

Industry standard is 1 /3 down . I vet my subs and customers . I have a folder on each , workmans comp , insurances , license etc .   Now I am working with some of the same guys 25  to 30 years . 

I never give cash up front.  if it's a big job, use a draw schedule that pays them for demo/prep.  that is labor only work.  they get a decent draw of say 20-30%, and you get something for your money if they walk, or get busy and slow play your job.  They can use that cash to get the first set of materials they need for rough, and pay the demo laborers.  After rough and they pass rough inspections, another decent draw should cover finish materials. (note, they now have skin in the game, since THEY have to pay the trades, or finish the job timely.)  After finish work, a 3rd draw covers all but the last 10-20% so they can pay the trades/recover what they paid the trades, and they get the final draw after final inspections are ALL PASSED (and get THEIR profit/pay)  If it's a small job, get another contractor, they should be able to cover it.  50% up front on a big job to me screams: "I am going to use a chunk of the money to complete my previous job!", or just rip you off.  There are exceptions of course, specialty materials with long lead times, other "unique" job items, but those I would purchase directly and have delivered to the site, possibly in coordination with your contractor.  Then again, I'm small time, not sure your relationship with your GC.

Its not easy to go after a delinquent investor , they form a LLC , the property is encumbered with a first and a second , not much to go after .

Going after a professional contractor is easy if you vetted them well . We are local , live in nice neighborhoods , and own our homes . 

Sadly, I've seen the opposite to be true more often. The contractor can ALWAYS put a lien on a property, so the investor can't really dodge the bullet indefinitely. Hell, in most areas if a contractor does ANY work, they can get the FULL JOB lien amount in court. For me, that's like, well, I was quoted $4000 for a new engine. They replaced the radiator, and want the full amount, and THEY GET IT. Now, the flip side, contractor closes down LLC and is doing jobs the next day under a new name. Ideally, you have a relationship with a good contractor, in which case, I don't think this question comes up. If my contract says they need it, they need it, and I know they'll get the job done.

Originally posted by @Matthew Paul :
Originally posted by @Josue Vargas:
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
Originally posted by @Josue Vargas:
Originally posted by @Stephen Gallagher:

@Victor S.

Is easier for the contractor to go after delinquent investors (at least he/she knows he own something and you can find them), is harder for us to go after contractors, especially small ones. 

Think about your business and let me know what will you do in this scenario: You are about to subcontract part of the electrical work for duct bank installation in given property (trenches, PVC pipes, and concrete encasement, some manholes or junction boxes). Your sub ask for 50% up-front, but you couldn't verify his experience and you have never done business with them, is cheap, and is not a recognized contractor. Will you pay him 50% up-front? 

Would giving him the opportunity to flourish in his business and taking away 50% of your money for his job to do a good investment?  Maybe yes, he might be a good individual driven from great ethic values.  If not, that represent you are likely to loose money on you job, spending more time, fixing things, and a headache trying to get your money back. 

Its not easy to go after a delinquent investor , they form a LLC , the property is encumbered with a first and a second , not much to go after .

Going after a professional contractor is easy if you vetted them well . We are local , live in nice neighborhoods , and own our homes . 

On the electrical problem , you answered your own question . Why would you hire and front money to who you cant verify , experience , you dont know them , is cheap , and not a recognized contractor .  If you hired someone like that with those qualifications and you lose money all you can do is look in the mirror 

 Thank you four your response.  Then we are on the same boat (investors and contractors).  You will not put 50% down for a sub you have no trust or vetted out... we do the same.  

Industry standard is 1 /3 down . I vet my subs and customers . I have a folder on each , workmans comp , insurances , license etc .   Now I am working with some of the same guys 25  to 30 years . 

I respectfully disagree with you that 1/3 down payment for a job is industry standard.  

@Alex Varner This is common, as a contractor when I'm doing a job over $1,000 and ** I have a relationship with the client I request 40-50% upfront usually. As an investor, you should never agree to this if this is your first or even second time working with a contractor. I have had experience on both the contractor side and from the investors side, it's just too much risk to pay money upfront. Be honest, explain yourself as to why you don't do this for first-time jobs together and explain that you would be happy to do it in the future if things go well.

@Brianne H. On differentiating between contractors.. just try to be observant and proceed with some caution. But ultimately as I said to Alex V. never agree to pay 50% up front or anywhere near that high if you haven't worked with the contractor before.

To both of you for your circumstances, never pay money up front to a contractor.. it's too risky on the first job. Only do this once you have a good relationship with someone. Someone can correct me if this is wrong but I would explain to them, if they do the work, and you don't pay. They are able to put a lien on your property which is a huuuuge pain. But if you give them money, and they beat it... you're out of luck and there is nothing you can really do. Any decent contractor will understand, appreciate the honesty, and figure it out.

There are many ways to work around this:

- you order and buy all materials

-you have them put together a cart of materials at HD or wherever and you can then go and pay, they can pick up materials and get to work

-you can make sure you break the quote out into phases (make sure each phase is roughly 1 week) and pay them after each week once you reviewed the completed week... and on.. and on. 

Definitely take the steps to follow-up with references, review past work examples etc.. but these are just steps to filter out really terrible candidates. Not by any means check-marks to determine if you can give money away to someone you haven't worked with yet.

Hope this helps

Keep crushing it!

I only pay for materials upfront, and that I will buy it with them in home depot. I make check list, pay them as it is done or by progress in increments. I would never pay 50 percent down personally. 30 percent down max if it is a reputable company with lots of reviews. That is just my comfort level.

@Brianne H. Most lumber yards will guide you in the right direction at least where I’m from. Most people with a great reputation will also not be advertised everywhere you turn your head or driving flashy trucks with decals. Word of mouth advertising is what reputable contractors live by.

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