Hi BP, 

My husband and I are currently under contract on a 4-unit property located in Miami, FL. We plan to house-hack this property (live in one of the units and rent the others for at least one year). We just finished doing the comprehensive and plumbing inspection last week and will need to decide if we want to move forward with this property soon.

There are two major repairs that I would like to get estimates on. The roof and electrics have been recently updated, but not the plumbing. Plumbing alone, we need to spend about $11K on "pipelining". The plumber suggested we do this work instead of replacing the pipes and he claims this lining will last up to 40 years. The current pipes are cast iron. 

We planned on fixing the pipes anyway so that was not a big deal for us. What worries us the most is the following. The property is a 1920s two-floor building. During the comprehensive inspection, we noticed one side of the building had sagging floors (the tiles were raised). This was most visible on the first floor, but you can also see the sagging on the second floor. We did no have access to the bottom of the building because it was closed off due to animals entering the bottom of the building at some point. We then had a plumber inspect the pipes and discovered with the sewer scope camera that the pipes under the building had cracks and one large hole (you could fit a hand in it). This got me worried since I am pretty sure the foundation is made of wood, however, the MLS states it is a CBS Construction (maybe this has nothing to do with the foundations). I started to wonder if the sagging floors could be due to deteriorating wood or a faulty floor joist/s. I've also read many investors warn about foundation problems. And since this is an OLD property, the problem most likely needs to be addressed ASAP.

We are going to speak with the seller to see if they could give us access to the foundation. A hole on the side of the building needs to be made to get access, not sure if they will agree to that. Below are some pictures to give you an idea of the sagging floors. Any advice, suggestions, or recommendations is greatly appreciated! 

from what i can tell from pics, looks like a very limited amount of space in the crawlspace, which will make that impossible to repair from underneath, so removing tile and subflooring are in this buildings future to shore up/replace floor joists. An unvented crawlspace, if not air conditioned, will most likely be a nightmare, especially in hot humid climate. I would not touch a property like this, but if you really LOVE it, check with a crawlspace encapsulation company(if they exist there) and get a price to stop moisture rising from the ground and rotting your wood subfloor

Get at least TWO foundations guys to quote you.  This can be very expensive or sometimes you can get away with addressing spot issues.

BTW - What is pipelining?  Why not just put PEX throughout the place?  Be better and sounds like about the same cost.

Originally posted by @Will G. :

from what i can tell from pics, looks like a very limited amount of space in the crawlspace, which will make that impossible to repair from underneath, so removing tile and subflooring are in this buildings future to shore up/replace floor joists. An unvented crawlspace, if not air conditioned, will most likely be a nightmare, especially in hot humid climate. I would not touch a property like this, but if you really LOVE it, check with a crawlspace encapsulation company(if they exist there) and get a price to stop moisture rising from the ground and rotting your wood subfloor

Thanks, Will. I will ask about the crawlspace encapsulation. But I first need to identify the cause of the sagging. I am also concerned about the vacancy due to these repairs. Sounds like if the crawlspace is too small to repair from underneath, then the units will need to be vacant. So there goes an additional cost.

Originally posted by @Steve Morris :

Get at least TWO foundations guys to quote you.  This can be very expensive or sometimes you can get away with addressing spot issues.

BTW - What is pipelining?  Why not just put PEX throughout the place?  Be better and sounds like about the same cost.

 Hi Steve. Thanks for your response. How do you recommend I go about searching for "foundation guys". I realized some contractors may not have experience in foundations or older properties in general. 

According to the internet, "Pipe lining is a way to restore the pipe from corrosion, leaks, or cracks from roots. It's a four step process and essentially is putting a pipe within a pipe. ... Pipe lining also increases the life span of a piping system, preserves the building structure, landscape, and causes little to no destruction to the property."

I have never heard about PEX. Most people I know just replace the cast iron pipes with PVC pipes. Thanks for the suggestion. 

The PEX/pipelining thing is confusion between water supply (pex) and sewer lines (cast iron, clay, even tar paper).. The cast iron drains can puff up from the inside, making rusty layers like an onion fill up the inside. It can make the drains run very slow and eventually will eat through the pipe.  I tear them all out when they are above the slab, and replace with PVC.  I know that lining old sewer laterals (the line from the house to the street's sewer line) is very common here. As long as the pipe didn't shift and is structurally sound itself, that part is the least worrisome. 

The sagging could be so many things. Termites, or sinking ground/sinkhole due to the sewer line break, or just outright faulty construction due to that inspector's notes.  I also noted the bit about the stucco, there are a ton of problems with stucco failures. Older stucco was solid but not built with a waterproof membrane, so water gets behind it and then just rots everything out. Newer stucco had all kinds of weird problems with the formulation and application.  I really hate stucco. 

This is a big deal especially since you can't get under to investigate the sagging more. I would be extremely wary. 

@Kenia Crevoisier With a crawl space, I Highly doubt the structure is CBS (concrete block with stucco) as these are almost always on a concrete slab foundation.  Likely, it is somewhat common, someone just applied stucco over wood siding, often to cover up rotten wood as it is cheaper than replacing all the wood. I can simply face away from the building, and kick hard, backwards into the exterior wall, and tell if it is wood frame or cbs.  Also on cbs, there will be no 2x4 studs in the exterior walls....just 1x2” firring  strips between the concrete blocks and Sheetrock or lath and plaster. Driving a nail through the inside of an exterior wall will tell you if you hit concrete.

The foundation sounds like a major issue.

I also would go with pex repiping (similar to pvc) or pvc instead of relining.  Old cast iron pipes inside diameters are typically about 1/4 of the original size due to mineral/corrosive build up.

Originally posted by @Nicky Reader :

The PEX/pipelining thing is confusion between water supply (pex) and sewer lines (cast iron, clay, even tar paper).. The cast iron drains can puff up from the inside, making rusty layers like an onion fill up the inside. It can make the drains run very slow and eventually will eat through the pipe.  I tear them all out when they are above the slab, and replace with PVC.  I know that lining old sewer laterals (the line from the house to the street's sewer line) is very common here. As long as the pipe didn't shift and is structurally sound itself, that part is the least worrisome. 

The sagging could be so many things. Termites, or sinking ground/sinkhole due to the sewer line break, or just outright faulty construction due to that inspector's notes.  I also noted the bit about the stucco, there are a ton of problems with stucco failures. Older stucco was solid but not built with a waterproof membrane, so water gets behind it and then just rots everything out. Newer stucco had all kinds of weird problems with the formulation and application.  I really hate stucco. 

This is a big deal especially since you can't get under to investigate the sagging more. I would be extremely wary. 

Thanks, Nicky for that clarification. I verified that the "CBS" refers to the vertical structure of the property. This is for sure a wood frame. I definitely will see if I can get it inspected, not something I think I should take a risk on. I was not sure how common this might be and if it's worth the additional inspection or just walking away from it, considering the age. Then again, I've been told that the property's age is not as important as the property's repair cycle. Lots to consider. 

Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks :

@Kenia Crevoisier With a crawl space, I Highly doubt the structure is CBS (concrete block with stucco) as these are almost always on a concrete slab foundation.  Likely, it is somewhat common, someone just applied stucco over wood siding, often to cover up rotten wood as it is cheaper than replacing all the wood. I can simply face away from the building, and kick hard, backwards into the exterior wall, and tell if it is wood frame or cbs.  Also on cbs, there will be no 2x4 studs in the exterior walls....just 1x2” firring  strips between the concrete blocks and Sheetrock or lath and plaster. Driving a nail through the inside of an exterior wall will tell you if you hit concrete.

The foundation sounds like a major issue.

I also would go with pex repiping (similar to pvc) or pvc instead of relining.  Old cast iron pipes inside diameters are typically about 1/4 of the original size due to mineral/corrosive build up.

 Hi Wayne,

Yes, you are totally right, this is a wood frame. The CBC refers to the vertical structure, not the horizontal structure. I appreciate your input!

So reading through the thread to precisely define the two issues:

1. The sewer lines need to be either replaced or lined.  What's still not clear is if this is an issue in the building or the underground piping leading from the building to the sewer tap or both?

I don't' see an issue with lining the sewer lines if that is the least expensive approach, the only other way is to dig it up and replace it all. You should get a quote on both options before you decide.

2. There is a foundation issue "on the left side" causing a slope/sag that is translating as cracks in the stuco and unlevel floors.  If you see it our not, this kind of issue translates all the way to your roof, causes your doors to hang wonky and can cause your sewer drains not to run as designed if they run parallel to the sag and no longer have the slope they once had, or worse there is a "belly" in the run.

This issue concerns me most and should be corrected first. I don't think this is as simple as sistering on a couple joists to correct the floor. Based on what you posted this looks like a foundation problem and your best approach is what was posted earlier, getting a couple quotes to fix the foundation.  Be prepared, you may need to do the entire foundation not just one wall.

Re-reading your original, if this is under contract, get the quotes rework your numbers to make sure the business case is still sound and if not, walk or renegotiate the deal.

Good luck and keep us all posted as to how this goes.

Originally posted by @Kenia Crevoisier :

Originally posted by @Wayne Brooks:

@Kenia Crevoisier With a crawl space, I Highly doubt the structure is CBS (concrete block with stucco) as these are almost always on a concrete slab foundation.  Likely, it is somewhat common, someone just applied stucco over wood siding, often to cover up rotten wood as it is cheaper than replacing all the wood. I can simply face away from the building, and kick hard, backwards into the exterior wall, and tell if it is wood frame or cbs.  Also on cbs, there will be no 2x4 studs in the exterior walls....just 1x2” firring  strips between the concrete blocks and Sheetrock or lath and plaster. Driving a nail through the inside of an exterior wall will tell you if you hit concrete.

The foundation sounds like a major issue.

I also would go with pex repiping (similar to pvc) or pvc instead of relining.  Old cast iron pipes inside diameters are typically about 1/4 of the original size due to mineral/corrosive build up.

 Hi Wayne,

Yes, you are totally right, this is a wood frame. The CBC refers to the vertical structure, not the horizontal structure. I appreciate your input!

I AM referring to the “vertical” (exterior walls) as to whether it is CBS or not.  I have Never seen CBS construction here that was Not on a concrete slab, as opposed to being on piers.  A slab foundation has no crawl space.

Do not buy this property without getting access to the crawl space. You have to get under there to see what exactly is causing the sagging and the extend of the damage. Unexpected foundation issues can completely wipe out your profits. 

If you're just talking the stack (ie what the waste lines connect to the sewer), then I understand now.  However, I'd get another plumber to verify since cast inside the house usually doesn't corrode and it'd be pretty obvious in what you can see, but if the trunk to the sewer is leaking AND the grading is right, then I understand it'd save you digging up the line.

I thought you meant galvanized lines to the faucets.  Once past 50 years, you're on borrowed time.  PEX is a new plastic type of feed line that is very good for life and connecting.