NEW! BP Podcast 018: Flipping, Wholesaling, and Everything Marketing with Danny Johnson

Hide this

People to Know

 

From the BiggerPockets Blog

 BiggerPockets Blog »

Jump to Forum View All

Click a category below to view different forum categories.

BiggerPockets

General Info

BiggerPockets Q&A, Site Questions, & Announcements

1140 topics, 10695 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 04:02PM

BiggerPockets Exclusive PRO Area

31 topics, 221 posts — Last Post 05/14/13, 12:46PM

New Member Introductions

6142 topics, 40054 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:57AM

Real Estate Success Stories

214 topics, 2934 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:29AM

BiggerPockets Real Estate Investing Summit

95 topics, 1723 posts — Last Post 05/16/13, 06:39PM

General Real Estate

General Real Estate

Buying & Selling Real Estate

2793 topics, 22971 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:50AM

Renters

305 topics, 2621 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 08:20PM

Get Foreclosure Help - Help Stop Foreclosure Forum

263 topics, 2095 posts — Last Post 05/03/13, 11:17AM

Home Owner Association (HOA) Issues & Problems Forum

157 topics, 1062 posts — Last Post 05/19/13, 10:00PM

Do it Yourself

402 topics, 3653 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 11:12AM

Reviews & Feedback

Real Estate Deal Analysis and Advice

2141 topics, 16666 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 07:37AM

Real Estate Guru, Book & Course Reviews and Discussions

865 topics, 8544 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:58AM

Ask About A Real Estate Company

536 topics, 5551 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 08:33AM

Real Estate Investing

Real Estate Strategies

Wholesaling

3738 topics, 29733 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:38AM

Rehabbing and House Flipping

2375 topics, 22218 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 08:33PM

Real Estate Development & New Home Construction

392 topics, 2885 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 02:46PM

Innovative Strategies

518 topics, 4152 posts — Last Post 05/16/13, 07:10PM

Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, & Cash Flows Discussion

577 topics, 4187 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 04:17AM

Rent to Own a.k.a. Lease Purchase, Lease Options

470 topics, 3237 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 10:56AM

1031 Exchanges

84 topics, 578 posts — Last Post 05/18/13, 04:45PM

Foreclosure Investing

General Foreclosure & Pre-Foreclosure Forums

1360 topics, 8915 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 04:11AM

HUD, VA, and Tax Sales

271 topics, 1719 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 06:40AM

REOs

1057 topics, 9227 posts — Last Post 05/18/13, 08:03PM

Short Sales

1385 topics, 11828 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 07:29PM

Landlord & Tenant Forums

Landlord & Rental Property Questions

4756 topics, 44620 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:54AM

Mobile Homes & Mobile Home Park Investing

488 topics, 3829 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 12:32AM

Investor Basics

Starting Out

5316 topics, 41350 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:50AM

Investor Psychology

338 topics, 4964 posts — Last Post 05/19/13, 12:10PM

General Real Estate Investing

3547 topics, 26974 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:45AM

Real Estate Investor Marketing

1171 topics, 9444 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 05:41AM

Commercial Real Estate

Commercial Real Estate Investing Forum

1131 topics, 7097 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 04:52PM

Multi-Family and Apartment Investing

532 topics, 4619 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 07:36PM

The Business of Real Estate

Real Estate Technology and the Internet

Real Estate Technology, Social Media & Blogging

456 topics, 3789 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 07:57PM

Business Basics

Goals, Business Plans & Entities

555 topics, 5217 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:56AM

Real Estate Finance & Legal

Financial, Tax, and Legal

Tax, Legal Issues, Contracts, Self-Directed IRA

1977 topics, 13966 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:47AM

Credit & Credit Repair

222 topics, 1802 posts — Last Post 04/22/13, 10:00AM

Property Insurance

208 topics, 1335 posts — Last Post 05/19/13, 11:40AM

Bankruptcy

25 topics, 138 posts — Last Post 03/22/13, 08:22PM

Loans, Mortgages, Credit Lines

Private & Conventional Lending Discussion

1844 topics, 12449 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 03:42AM

Creative Real Estate Financing

841 topics, 5942 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 07:32PM

Real Estate Professionals

Real Estate Professionals

Real Estate Agents

786 topics, 4961 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:16AM

Bankers, Lenders, and Mortgage Brokers

374 topics, 1501 posts — Last Post 05/15/13, 08:35PM

Contractors

154 topics, 867 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 08:47PM

Local Real Estate

Local Real Estate

Local Real Estate Networking & Recommendations

938 topics, 5374 posts — Last Post 05/20/13, 06:54PM

Americans & International Real Estate

149 topics, 540 posts — Last Post 05/17/13, 03:21PM

Foreigners Buying in the USA

47 topics, 296 posts — Last Post 05/13/13, 09:15AM

Canadian Real Estate

33 topics, 155 posts — Last Post 04/28/13, 07:59AM

Marketplace

Real Estate Marketplace

Real Estate Marketplace

11573 topics, 44691 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 07:55AM

Off-Topic

Off Topic

Off-Topic

2570 topics, 30334 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:50AM

Housing News & Real Estate Market

761 topics, 7190 posts — Last Post 05/21/13, 08:54AM

BiggerPockets Resources

Forums » Landlord & Rental Property Questions » Advice/Things to avoid in Property Management Contracts?

Advice/Things to avoid in Property Management Contracts?

7 posts by 6 users

Signup

Real Estate Investor · Woodland Hills, California


Hi everyone,

I am reviewing a property management contract for the PM company that works with a turnkey provider I'm thinking of doing business with for a property in Indianapolis.

1. First month's rent, not to exceed $1000 for tenant placement fee (Wouldn't this pretty much be an incentive for tenant turnover?) -Is this the industry standard? Or is this company just, for lack of a better word, "tripping"?

2. Tenant resign fee for resigning a new lease and the end of a good standing lease term = half of monthly rent. - Again, is this the industry standard?

3. Expenditures in excess of $400 require owner approval. - Should this amount be lower? I've read in other posts people mentioning $200.

4. Wording Regarding termination of contract.
"Either party may terminate this agreement at the end of the contract period by giving 30 day written notice. Failure to give written notice of cancellation shall renew this agreement for a like period under the same terms etc." -
I'm no lawyer but this seems like I cannot just give a 30 day notice whenever I feel unhappy, that I must wait til the end of a contract period and give 30 days notice before the contract is up, just to get out of the contract?

I'm not sure if it is within forum rules to link to the document, but I can email it to anyone if they want to take a look at the rest of it to help out.
The name of the PM company is PARC Property Management. If anyone has used, or is using this PM company and wants to chime in, I'd appreciate it big time also!

Anyone have a good PM company they can recommend in the area? Has anyone used reddoorrents.com? They seem awesome by the info on their web page

Thanks so much in advance


Real Estate Investor · memphis, Tennessee


See my responses below, but I would definitely contact them about anything that makes you uncomfortable for either explanation or changing. The worst thing they can do is say no.

Originally posted by Mehran Kamari:
Hi everyone,

I am reviewing a property management contract for the PM company that works with a turnkey provider I'm thinking of doing business with for a property in Indianapolis.

1. First month's rent, not to exceed $1000 for tenant placement fee (Wouldn't this pretty much be an incentive for tenant turnover?) -Is this the industry standard? Or is this company just, for lack of a better word, "tripping"?

I don;t think there is any such thing as "industry standard" when it comes to property management as it is so loose and will vary from state to state and even within the city. However, if this is an incentive to provide bad service to you as an investor and just churn tenants for income, I would think they would have trouble staying in business. We too charge first months rent not to exceed $1000 in both the cities we operate, but our average length of stay per tenant is now approaching 31 months. If they are a quality management company, I would have no problem with that charge. Ask them what their average length of occupancy is.

2. Tenant resign fee for resigning a new lease and the end of a good standing lease term = half of monthly rent. - Again, is this the industry standard?

This one I'm not so sure of. I can understand a nominal charge of between $100 and $250, but a half month's rent - depending on how they are compensating the person who negotiates the rental contract extension and how successful they are, may be just right or it may be high. Ask for specifics as to how successful they are at resigns and ask what percentage move out and what percentage resign each month.

3. Expenditures in excess of $400 require owner approval. - Should this amount be lower? I've read in other posts people mentioning $200.

I have seen this number between $300 and $400. Usually is depends on how large the company is and what their typical clientele prefers. Often times, investors using turn-key operations do not want a lot of calls on smaller dollar items and many think less than $400 is smaller dollar. Of course, that is all relative. If you are purchasing a property with a rent of $600 and receive $550 after management, $400 is practically the entire rent an I would be fired up if I did not receive a call on anything up to that number. So consider the rent of the property and the reasoning behind the policy and I think this is a great thing to ask for a little negotiation on.

4. Wording Regarding termination of contract.
"Either party may terminate this agreement at the end of the contract period by giving 30 day written notice. Failure to give written notice of cancellation shall renew this agreement for a like period under the same terms etc." -
I'm no lawyer but this seems like I cannot just give a 30 day notice whenever I feel unhappy, that I must wait til the end of a contract period and give 30 days notice before the contract is up, just to get out of the contract?

I have never seen a contract that was not able to be terminated with a 30 day notice. I'm not sure of the legal language, but I am certain you can terminate with a 30 day notice at any time. If I am wrong on one or more of these points, then this may not be the right company. Often times, you just need to open the dialogue with them and get to the reasoning and the meaning behind each of the points.

I'm not sure if it is within forum rules to link to the document, but I can email it to anyone if they want to take a look at the rest of it to help out.
The name of the PM company is PARC Property Management. If anyone has used, or is using this PM company and wants to chime in, I'd appreciate it big time also!

Thanks so much in advance

Small_new_mi_logoChris Clothier, Memphis Invest, GP
Telephone: 901-212-9647
Website: http://www.memphisinvest.com
www.MemphisInvest.com 1(877)-773-9998 Chris D Clothier


SFR Investor · Annapolis, Maryland


Mehran, like Chris said, there is no industry standard. I have property managers in 2 states right now.
1 & 2. One charged me 1/2 months rent to place tenant, plus ad fees of about $100 or so, then $400 per year "inspection fee" if they renew, so like a re-signing fee (but 1/4 of month's rent, not 1/2), and 8% of rents collected. The other, which I prefer, charges $150 per year for 1-10 properties, whether tenants stay or not, no placement fee, no re-sign fee, and 8% of rents collected.
3. Both tried for $400 and dropped to $200 with negotiation.
4. All the management contracts I've seen had this in it instead of the 30-day notice that Chris mentions. I was able to get out of one without waiting for the end of term with no penalties when they were not doing their job, and if they are doing their job, I'm okay with keeping them around, anyway, so that clause didn't scare me so much. Might just be common practice for the areas I am in.


Real Estate Broker


Hi Mehran,

I would be more than happy to share the property management company we use in Indianapolis offline with you if you like. We are not affiliated with them, nor do we receive any compensation from them. They do great work on our client's properties and I would be happy to connect you guys.

Continued success!

Small_norada_real_estate_investmentsMarco Santarelli, Norada Real Estate Investments
Telephone: (800) 611-3060
Website: http://www.NoradaRealEstate.com
"Live where you want. Invest where it makes sense!"



Mehran,

Smart move reviewing the management agreement carefully. I encourage all owners to do the same but sadly, some do not.

Everything is negotiable but property managers enjoy uniformity in rules and regulations among their properties for the sake of ease and comfort. However, at the end of the day it is your investment and any good manager will respect that.

As for your list, I am not a fan of item #2. Where is the incentive for your property manager to try to retain a good paying tenant? We don't do this.


Real Estate Investor · Woodland Hills, California


Thanks everyone for the awesome responses!

@Chris Clothier Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. The Average length of occupancy is definitely on my list of questions. I'll also clear up the details of my ability to terminate our contract.

@Lynn M.It's nice to see what the numbers are for some of the contracts you have in place. Gives me more understanding to negotiate with.

@Marco Santarelli I'll PM you in a bit! Thanks

@Will B. I can't even imagine how someone can invest tens of thousands of dollars, and assume so much liability without reading the fine print! It's always good to be reminded that everything is negotiable. I tend to forget that when I'm venturing into something new and don't know the "rules" yet.

This thread has been great so far.


· Lancaster, California


Hi Mehran;

I'm new to landlording and looking for a good PM in Milwaukee. I have stayed away from anyone who won't let me terminate when I want - but usually see a 60 day notice requirement. I'm ok w/ that.

I read one contract that actually allowed the PM to charge ME for 'lost income" if I cancelled the contract early (it was more technical than that - but the same idea). I thought: "Are You NUTS?! " and moved on.

I won't allow more than $200 work w/o prior approval- but am actually thinking of asking for notice for any-and-everything - except emergency services for tenant - at least till I get a better feel for this. Have heard too many stories of owners getting nickle-n-dimed to death!

Good Luck

Kelly




Sign up