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Forums » Housing News & Real Estate Market » The Crisis Among Us

The Crisis Among Us Subscribe to The Crisis Among Us

7 posts by 6 users

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Real Estate Investor


Does anyone have an opinion on the commercial real estate crisis and which areas of commercial it will have the most significant impact on?

Personally, I do not expect apartment buildings to be hit as badly as office and retail space. Rising vacancies in office and retail is largely due to a lack of consumer spending, lay-offs and business downsizing. However, as a result, won't these lay-offs (and high foreclosure rates in homes) cause consumers to downsize from their houses and condos to apartments, and increase occupancy levels in multifamily buildings? That's just my opinion.... I'm not an economist.

Thoughts?


SFR Investor · Long Beach, California


It depends on the region. I won't speak for every other region but in the LA/Orange County area apartments are getting hit hard. Rents are down 10%-15% and vacancies are up. That is all a factor of the housing bust and subsequent recession. SoCal is not an inexpensive area to live. Many people that lost their jobs moved in with family or friends or moved out of the region altogether.


Real Estate Investor · Wheat Ridge, Colorado


The rental market here in Denver has slowed from 18 months ago. The lower end apartments appear to have been really slammed. No formal data, just observations from all the "free rent" and "$1 move in" signs on these buildings.

Commercial loans commonly have short balloons or rate resets. I suspect many owners bought or refinanced these during the bubble, assuming rents and values would continue to increase. When their loans reset or balloon, they're going to have a hard time refinancing at a high enough new loan amount to pay off the existing one.

Lender remains very tight. Perhaps it will loosen in the next few years, perhaps not.

The US national debt is skyrocketing. One of the methods to pay down this debt is to inflate the currency. When inflation kicks in, interest rates rise. Now, I think there are some pressures that may tend to hold inflation in check. Specifically, the large number of boomers who are nearing retirement and have had their portfolios decimated by the crash, and therefore don't have as much spending money as they did. The trend toward frugality, created at least in part by the inability to borrow cash, will also tend to dampen demand and therefore prices and inflation.

Nevertheless, it does appear there is a convergence of factors that point toward higher default rates among commercial borrowers. You may be right that commercial and retail will be hit harder. But I think a lot of the poeple will end up in SFR rentals rather than apartments. One of my tenants has all three of their adult children living with them, and my adult kids are living with me. In better times, all these kids would be living on their own, and likely in small apartments rather than a single large house with their parents.

Small_flying-phoenixJon Holdman, Flying Phoenix LLC


· OR


Commercial here is in a world of hurt. Offices and retail stores are standing empty.

Residential rentals are hard hit, too. I have a couple of vacancies and have dropped rents by 25% and still can't find tenants. Many have moved away, moved back in with family, or whole families are now acting like roommates, two full families sharing one rental.

It sure feels like the only tenants left are the ones too poor or too stupid to move away. They are hoping to move in with no deposit money, no job, and really lousy credit.


Real Estate Investor · Ohio


I think you are right Richard, retail and office space will be hit harder than residential. People must live somewhere and there is a lot of truth in your theory that a bad economy trickles people downward into rentals. However, the truth is (as Jon said) that people are doubling up (and more) even now and that is likely to increase in the future. I currently have 3 families living in a one bedroom apartment. They pay the water and are taking good care of the unit, so I'm not saying anything. However, I am seeing that happen in many of my rentals as people increasingly can't survive on their own.

If the Bush tax cuts expire (thereby causing tax increases); cap and trade drastically increases utility costs and the cost of goods generally; socialized medicine is voted in (at a HUGE cost); etc the pressure on people will grow exponentially. The average worker is already severely stressed and won't be able to take much more. The standard of living in the US is going down and that WILL affect the rental business. The only trick is figuring out exactly how!


Private Money Lender · Los Angeles, California


… Will have the most impact??? It already has.

Here's a comparison between Case-Shiller housing index and Moody's Commercial Property Price Index for nationwide data, including the percent down from it's peak: http://www.biggerpockets.com/user_photos/0006/6661/Case_Shiller_and_Moodys_CPPI.jpg


As it did in the early 90's, housing prices foretold the recent collapse in commercial real estate values. Note too that CRE falls faster and there does not appear an end in sight on an aggregated, nationwide level. Locally it's a different story.

You can go to the MIT site for the Moody's data (http://web.mit.edu/cre/research/credl/rca.html) and find all the local components to slice and dice yourself; or just look at their plots. Note that there are areas of the country, such as the West, that have essentially cratered for all property types (apartment, office, retail, and industrial). Others, such as the East and South regions are just off their peaks and appear to have a way to go.

This stuff is great for REI club and cocktail party conversations but I tend to tread lightly with it for any other purpose. At best, you might use it to justify a decision to sit and wait and you wouldn't be alone (i.e. ask any commercial broker, "How's business?"). I don't suggest you try to time the market though. Even if you could define what a bottom is, and I bet you can't, a great deal now is still a great deal. That is, I wouldn't let it keep you from investing if you find something worthwhile that meets your criteria.

Jeff


Real Estate Investor


I agree with the opinions here. As a few of you have pointed out, many people are moving in with family and friends and as Brian said, some are leaving the area completely.

With that said, some (or a lot) of this is local. When people move out of one area they are obviously moving into another. As investors, we need to ascertain where that location is. Real estate, as we all know, is very local. Each local market runs its own cycle and each market is in different stages of that cycle at different times. While one location is severly hurting, another may be an emerging market where economic development is occuring, jobs are moving into the area (well, ok, this one's a bit of a joke right now), or people are moving there to take advantage of lower costs relative to other cities.

Like Mike stated, the tricky part is figuring out how events in the macroeconomic environment will affect our local markets (and even more difficult, the timing of these effects).

In closing, this is still a time to invest. I'm seeing a lot of great prices out there. Will the prices go even lower? Sure. But that doesn't mean they still aren't steals for a 10-15 year investment horizon. I'm a buyer.




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