Who is responsible for missing outside items

Rental Property Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 5 votes

I have a rental property in NC that has a few storm drains in the yard. There are steel grates covering the drains for safety reasons. My tenant called the property manager today and said the grates are gone and need to be replaced. The grates were properly installed when the tenant moved in (August 2013) and had been there for about 10 years since the property was built. My question is: Who is responsible to replace these?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Carolinatim

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Steve Babiak

Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes

12y

The metal harvesters likely are to blame. Iron work that is not locked down is always vulnerable to these thieves.

Your tenant might not be in a position where they can afford to pay for replacement. You can price the replacement and then determine whether you would want to file a claim with your insurance; you might be required to get a police report before the claim would be honored.

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Account Closed
Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
12y
It is your property you are responsible.

Joe Gore
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Wayne Brooks
Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
12y
Agreed. Why would there be any question?
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Steve Babiak
Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
12y
The metal harvesters likely are to blame. Iron work that is not locked down is always vulnerable to these thieves.

Your tenant might not be in a position where they can afford to pay for replacement. You can price the replacement and then determine whether you would want to file a claim with your insurance; you might be required to get a police report before the claim would be honored.
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Kyle J.
Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
12y
I would agree they are your responsibility. Also, you should replace them sooner rather than later. That could be a huge liability if someone hurts themselves on the uncovered drains now that you're aware of the problem.
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John Rooster
Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 409 posts · 105 votes
12y
Probably the landlord. Possibly the tenant if the backyard was fenced such that only the tenant could have taken them
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Bill S.Pro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
Ok let's look at it a bit different. What if the appliances turned up "missing"? Who would pay then? My lease is written so that the tenants are responsible for the property, lot line to lot line, end of story. Maintenance and upkeep is on me, breakage and theft are on the tenant. Things that go "missing" or are damaged or broken under their watch (during the lease term) are their responsibility.

The only exception I would see in this is if for some reason the grates are actually within City right of way and not technically on the leased property.
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Account Closed
Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
12y
@Bill S.,

If things are stolen and a police report is made just turn it into your insurance company.

Joe Gore
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Eric Belgau
Insurance Agent · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 168 posts · 88 votes
12y
@Bill S. Have you made that policy stick on appliances installed in the unit?

You can write anything you want into a lease, but even if an item is inside the unit, if there's evidence of a break-in and various things belonging to your tenant are stolen, and if the thief makes off with, say, a refrigerator belonging to you, I think you'd have a rough time enforcing a policy that puts responsibility for your property on the tenant.

If it's on the property but out in the open, I can't imagine anyone assigning responsibility to the tenant.
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Joel OwensBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
12y
Joe,

Many times you do not want to turn in a claim to the insurance company. If the cost of fixing it is less than the deductible or just over it you do not want to get hit with an insurance premium hike.

When it makes sense to file is if there is a large amount to fix that is over the deductible.

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Bill I understand what you are trying to do. The good thing is the tenants might replace stuff just because it says so in the lease. If they fight it and it goes to court based on spending a lot of time in court and hearing how judges rule I do not think they would find a tenant owed money for something stolen outside like that. You never know but odds are not in your favor. Have you thought about putting an alarm sign in your tenants yard? They also have the dummy cameras for cheap that blink that you can mount on the house.

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Tim sounds like you have the French drains. The people that stole them probably didn't get that much for them. You have to find a way to lock them down when you replace next time. Is there hard plastic or something else cheaper thieves wouldn't try to take for these drain covers??
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Bill S.Pro Member
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Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
@Eric Belgau never had your situation come up and you are right that a lease can have any language you want in it but it doesn't make it legal or enforceable. BTW it's my experience that most break-ins are by people known to the occupant but I'm not sure if that really makes a difference.

The real rub comes when items disappear that only belong to the Landlord. What then, was the tenant not watchful, did the tenant take the items themselves, was the tenant careless and broke the items and is covering that up by getting rid of them, did the tenant's friends or family take them. Does it make a difference if it's behind a fence with a locked gate? Without a locked gate? With an open gate? With no fence?

Did the tenants kids play with them and hide them unknown to the tenant?

There are many many options and most have some sort of tenant ownership. The easy one is to blame some unknown third party and put it on the Landlord's back when in reality there is lots of opportunity for tenant responsibility. I've even heard of stuff being "found" after the tenant realizes that they are on the hook for the "missing" items.
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Tim B.
OP
Rental Property Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 5 votes
12y
Thanks for the responses. I am a new landlord and don't know all the rules.

I was thinking along the lines of Bill S., the tenant should have some responsibility for the property. I'm not sure if my lease is written like his, probably not (it was a standard lease used by the mgmt. company). What if a window is broken and the tenant says they don't know who did it? (this particular tenant has a history of lying about pets/smoking/etc) Do I have to pay for replacement of the window?

Thanks again,

Carolinatim
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Eric Belgau
Insurance Agent · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 168 posts · 88 votes
12y
@Bill S. Those are good points. My experience as a landlord has been in a desirable neighborhood in Burbank, CA, and we've been very tenant selective. We haven't had this issue, but we've been looking at semi-rural multifamily properties around Olympia, so I feel like it's on the way.

I like the idea of creating that idea of responsibility, even if it isn't enforceable when push comes to shove. If you're right that most thieves are known to the tenants, then I can see how just putting that out there would motivate the tenant to "find" the "lost" items. And making them feel financially responsible makes them less likely to steal it themselves.

As far as insurance goes, it does make a difference whether they're inside or outside, behind a fence/locked gate, etc., because theft coverage often requires evidence of a break-in. (For stuff out in the open, like the drain grates, the missing grates is evidence enough.)

All large appliances that are furnished with a property (and worth more than the deductible) should be on the landlord policy.
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Kyle J.
Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Tim B.:
Thanks for the responses. I am a new landlord and don't know all the rules.

I was thinking along the lines of Bill S., the tenant should have some responsibility for the property. I'm not sure if my lease is written like his, probably not (it was a standard lease used by the mgmt. company). What if a window is broken and the tenant says they don't know who did it? (this particular tenant has a history of lying about pets/smoking/etc) Do I have to pay for replacement of the window?

Thanks again,

Carolinatim

Tim,

Be careful because you cannot always just make the tenant responsible for repairs as has been suggested. For instance, in your example of the broken window, you would likely have to repair that.

Your lease may or may not address issues like this, but more than likely your state laws do (and that would supercede your lease anyway).

I did a little research and found this for your state: http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/65f98289-61ec-4d13-b2dc-133bb5c44999/landlord-tenant-booklet.aspx

I'd suggest reading it. (FYI - Your state laws would require you to fix the window.)
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Account Closed
Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
12y
You can try to hold the tenant responsible for the theft, but your next step is to prove it and you sure don't want to say the tenant did it without proof. There is a chance a landlord will steal things and blame the tenant.

Joe Gore
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Bill S.Pro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
@Eric Belgau seems contradictory that missing grates out in the open is evidence of theft but missing appliances wouldn't be unless a broken door or window?? Shows I'm not an insurance person.

Not sure my lease is enforceable in court but won't likely take it that far to find out. Tenants know if they have some responsibility so when you lean if they do then they usually own it. That said, it's not 100% of the time but it does help with the loses.
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Eric Belgau
Insurance Agent · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 168 posts · 88 votes
12y
Evidence of a break-in. You can't break into open space. :)
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Michael B.
Apopka, FL · Member since 2012 · 207 posts · 120 votes
12y
Of course it's your problem, not your tenant's.

Here's the way I would look at it -- what did the tenant do wrong that caused the loss? If the answer is 'nothing' then it's always the landlord's problem.

Now, the issue would be different if there was something that a reasonable tenant should be doing to prevent the loss. But on a storm grate? There's just not a lot that a reasonable person would think of doing to secure the grate. They're not frequently stolen items and a reasonable person woudln't be expected to secure it unless told to.

And it's the same for things like appliances. Did the tenant take reasonable steps to protect the appliance like lock the door? If he did, then it's the landlord's responsibility to replace it. If not, then maybe the tenant can be charged for it.
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Bill S.Pro Member
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Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
@Kyle J. please note that there is a huge difference between repairs due to normal wear and tear and damage. A broken window is damage. A landlord can be required to fix damages so as not to violate code (habitability) but the tenant pays for all damages. Landlords pay for repair (wornout furnace).
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Account Closed
Professional · Yona, Guam · Member since 2014 · 62 posts · 30 votes
12y
Tenant charge, if it is covered properly in your lease and not violating state regulations. I would let the tenant know in writing (email is fine) they are responsible for the property while occupying it and quote the lease. It is unfortunate that theft takes place . . .

I would then add the replacement costs to their ledger. The suggestions about security signs and video are great, and I might make those to the tenant, but I would not provide them. Hopefully you have a professional relationship with your tenant and you have not set a precedent for the tenant to bring their problems to you. My kid cracked the screen on my phone, Verizon thinks I have to pay for that. Exactly.
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Tim B.
OP
Rental Property Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 5 votes
12y
I like the way you think, Clint. My property manager is checking with DOT to see if they will cover it, but I'm sure they won't. The drains are well off the road and in the yard of the house and basically keep the yard from flooding during heavy rains.

Funny that you mention the tenant bringing problems to me. Each month they have been renting they come up with something (ALWAYS at the beginning of the month when rent is due) that needs repair. Refrigerator, kitchen sink, dishwasher (x2), toilet, now these grates. On the surface they sound legitimate, but I am wondering if they aren't really sabotage. I think the tenant may be upset with me from a previous incident and they are just trying to cost me money.
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Kyle J.
Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Bill S.:
@Kyle J. please note that there is a huge difference between repairs due to normal wear and tear and damage. A broken window is damage. A landlord can be required to fix damages so as not to violate code (habitability) but the tenant pays for all damages. Landlords pay for repair (wornout furnace).

Bill, your posts are confusing to me. And since this was the original poster's first post here on BP, let's try to not have him confused already too. Afterall, he came here seeking answers.

In your first post, you stated "My lease is written so that the tenants are responsible for the property, lot line to lot line, end of story. Maintenance and upkeep is on me, breakage and theft are on the tenant. Things that go "missing" or are damaged or broken under their watch (during the lease term) are their responsibility."

Something like this is generally not even legal. (And I can give you examples all day long of why it's not if you want.) You can't just say if something/anything is "damaged or broken" during the tenant's lease term that they are always responsible to fix it. There's too many variables to make a blanket rule like this.

For example: What does the state law say about it where the property is located (in the original poster's state there is a law expressly prohibiting this); what specifically is broken/damaged; do you know (better yet - can you prove) who did the damage; was it due to the tenant's negligence; was it done by an unknown third party. etc. The list is endless.

A broken window may be "damage", but it still has to be "repaired" - likely by YOU (the landlord). So, I stand by my response to the original poster's question about what he should do in a situation such as was illustrated in his example.
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Account Closed
Professional · Yona, Guam · Member since 2014 · 62 posts · 30 votes
12y
@Tim B. Then it is time to stand firm. Transfer all communication to writing or email, if not already. Quote your lease. And never let them reduce rent or not pay in exchange for maintenance or complaints.

I see a lot of people talking about contacting insurance. That is also a great tip to pass on to your tenant. "It is unfortunate that the grates were stolen. As per our lease . . . We need to have this addressed quickly. If you do not have them replaced within XX days then we will line this up and you will be charged. You can also contact your renter's insurance agent to see if they will cover this and install a security system to avoid future problems."
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Bill S.Pro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
@Kyle J. I'm having trouble following your thinking. What I read is if a tenant, in a fit of rage, rips the front door off the hinges then since the landlord has to repair the door it would be the landlord's cost according to your quoted state law? I can't really believe that was the intent of the law. The law was written to make it the landlord who must make the repairs, they can't hide behind the tenant and say the tenant lives there they must fix it. The law requires the landlord to fix but does not require them to foot the bill for it. I stand by my original position that the tenant pays for everything that is not normal wear and tear (including "stolen" grates in a yard).

BTW @Tim B. did the tenant file a police report for the "stolen" grates? While I mostly agree with @Account Closed I would suggest that the landlord should replace the grates and bill the tenant. My lease prohibits tenants from performing "work" on the property. I don't want them duct taping plumbing and etc to save money.
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Tim B.
OP
Rental Property Investor · Charleston, SC · Member since 2014 · 26 posts · 5 votes
12y
Bill,

I do not believe there was a police report. They just told the property manager when they paid the rent this month that the grates are missing and it is a safety hazard. I intend on replacing them, I just don't know who will ultimately pay for it. There seems to be a lot of opinions on that.
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Kyle J.
Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Bill S.:
@Kyle J. I'm having trouble following your thinking. What I read is if a tenant, in a fit of rage, rips the front door off the hinges then since the landlord has to repair the door it would be the landlord's cost according to your quoted state law? I can't really believe that was the intent of the law. The law was written to make it the landlord who must make the repairs, they can't hide behind the tenant and say the tenant lives there they must fix it. The law requires the landlord to fix but does not require them to foot the bill for it. I stand by my original position that the tenant pays for everything that is not normal wear and tear (including "stolen" grates in a yard).

In the door example you just gave, you're right - the tenant would have to pay for the damage THEY caused. However, that is not how your original post read, which again stated: "My lease is written so that the tenants are responsible for the property, lot line to lot line, end of story. Maintenance and upkeep is on me, breakage and theft are on the tenant. Things that go "missing" or are damaged or broken under their watch (during the lease term) are their responsibility."

For instance, what if an unknown burglar broke in and stole the front door. (Who would do that right? But bear with me.) That's theft and you say you make tenants responsible for theft. I say you can't do that (and so does the law in most all cases).

Another example, some unknown neighborhood kid walks by the house and throws a rock through the window before running off. That's damage and you say that you make tenants responsible for damage that occurs under their watch. I say you can't do that (and so does the law in most all cases).

Anyways, I was simply trying to point out that you cannot make a tenant responsible to fix all "damage" or "breakage" at the property. That's all. Not only is it not a good idea (since things will go unrepaired which could cause further damage), it most cases it's not even legal.
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