Carpet ruined - Do I have recourse? Should I pursue?
I had tenants rent my 2,850 SF house for 5.5 years. They disclosed their four dogs before signing, and they gave me a $500 extra deposit for that (in addition to last month's rent). And the wife said to me as they were moving in, "We'll probably have to buy all new when we leave." ("all new" is all she said, not carpet or anything else) Once they moved out I began rehabbing the place, which smelled very bad. I tried everything to fix the odor (scented oil warmers; baking soda on the carpet then vacuum; vinegar), but finally had to tear out the carpet (did it myself). And of course I found that their dogs had peed EVERYWHERE. Bottom of the carpet is white, so urine stains show up perfectly, and those dogs covered a vast majority of the carpet (multiple times in many areas), which was almost the entirely upstairs (1150 SF) & the stairs themselves. And the upstairs floor is plywood - Ugh. I'm kinda anal, so rather than just rolling up each floor & chunking it onto a trailer for disposal, I cut the carpet in each room into thirds, then folded it and stacked it outside - so I still have it. Oh, and the carpet was brand new when they moved in; I have the receipt.
Now, these renters paid the rent on time / every time for 5.5 straight years, and they're nice folks, so I felt kinda lenient towards them when they asked if they could use their last month's rent deposit as their actual last month's rent, so I said yes. AND ... I had toured the entire house with an architect just the month before for modernization planning, and while the house smelled like somebody was living there, it was not bad at all. Turns out they had masked the odor pretty well with incense, perfume etc. And when they moved out they had the carpet steam cleaned ... which prob really awakened the odor.
The tenants ended up buying a house about 2 miles away, and the H/W are both gainfully employed with very good local jobs. The wife makes over $150K (it's available via public disclosure).
I feel like allowing pets is not the same as allowing pets to destroy the carpet. Do you agree? In any case, I'm not surprised the carpet is ruined; just wondering if I should pursue them for it.
So ... do you think I should ask them to pay for carpet replacement? And if they decline, do you think I should sue them?
Thank you ...
Stay away from carpet in rentals! I never go back with it for this and other reasons. Tenants can destroy it in 6 months.
Use some type of hard surface. I like to put tile. Vinyl flooring was mentioned here. Maybe tile in kitchens and bathrooms and the wood lookalike vinyl in the rest of the rooms. Tenants like carpet in bedrooms? Too bad-tell them to buy an area rug.
One thing to also look at that was not mentioned is the walls and baseboards. Did the pets urinate on the bottom 1 foot of the wall/baseboards? I have seen this before. Also, on the second floor, did the urine penetrate the seams between the plywood sheets and go in the flooring cavity? With an incomplete rehab of the damage, the smell will come back for many years. You may also need ozone treatment.
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
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Reality is that even if you received a judgment it is very unlikely you will collect unless you are in a state that allows garnishment of wages
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I will have to disagree with this part of Greg's post for this particular tenant and the circumstance given by the OP.
The former tenants bought a house. Some day they might either try to sell the house or refi the mortgage on the house. One of those events will cause a payoff of the judgment. And who knows, this set of tenants has a good income and just might be the sort to behave with upstanding character - in other words, some people do pay all of their obligations.
Lots of great responses and lessons pointed out. Welcome to land lording! We have been accepting pets in our rentals for years, mostly positive results. Unfortunately once in a while you do get a "story" for your book on land lording later. If you have not covered up the subfloor yet, stop in to your local pet store and look for "Natures Miracle" it is an enzyme to eliminate the urine. All natural and it works great! The directions say to dilute with water, we use it straight. We just pour directly on the affected subfloor and let it sit. You don't need to flood it. I had a carpet installation business and have painted many floors, it works ok, this we have found works much better. It neutralizes the odor instead of covering it. Also works on carpet for small accidents directly.
As far as pets go, we also have a Pet Fee not deposit. We charge $350 per pet. In addition to the normal security deposit. This also does not allow them to cause "extra" damage. The damage will still have to be repaired at their expense. "Normal wear and tear" is not urinating all over the house. If they masked it, they knew there was a problem. After 5.5 years of paying rent on time, maintaining the home, no other major issues (assumptions) carpet being 5.5 years old, I wouldn't waste my time going after them for carpet replacement in court. Your time is worth more than that. I would politely explain to them what I found when I started the turnover. I would include pictures, and costs. I would explain that they probably knew about the dog problem, since they masked the odor. I would also explain that I had allowed them to use their damage deposit for the last months rent instead of being used towards the urine soaked carpet that needs to be replaced. I would not expect the full cost, but ask them what they can put towards the replacement cost. Then let them talk, silence is awkward and effective. We find that if you confront people and call them out nicely, most of the time they will come around and do what is right. Good Luck. Hope this helps.
Didn't read all of it.
When you buy carpet you can get a plastic vapor barrier put in underneath to try and protect the floor.
You can turn off the lights and take a black light to show all the urine stains. It might be along the baseboards and not in the carpet or sub floor alone. In that case you might have to remove the bottom boards for sheetrock on the walls and replace. If the subfloor has soaked in just a little urine you can sometimes sand off the top layer and seal with an odor eliminator type product. If it has really soaked in you will need to replace the subfloor in those spots.
I sold a house over a decade ago that had 50 plus cats in it and they kept them in a few rooms for the most part. Walking in the door would knock you out.
No legal advice given.
The first thing I do with a rental is strip the carpet out if the carpet is in bad shape. Carpet is a hassle, and with so many options of tile available you can cover every floor in the asset with it and stop worrying about that part of the cap x for years. The tenants can always buy rugs to throw down if that is what they desire. I try to make my rentals as bullet proof as possible even if it means a little more cost upfront. It would also be a good idea for you to do semi annual inspections, then you would be able to get to the problem sooner.
Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:...
Reality is that even if you received a judgment it is very unlikely you will collect unless you are in a state that allows garnishment of wages
...
I will have to disagree with this part of Greg's post for this particular tenant and the circumstance given by the OP.
The former tenants bought a house. Some day they might either try to sell the house or refi the mortgage on the house. One of those events will cause a payoff of the judgment. And who knows, this set of tenants has a good income and just might be the sort to behave with upstanding character - in other words, some people do pay all of their obligations.
You are right for most states. My answer was based on living in Texas as it is very difficult to collect here. No garnishment and with our homestead laws our personal residence would be exempt as well
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Why do some of us have to preface or end our posts with "no legal advice given"? I notice that a lot throughout the forums. Are people seriously trying to protect themselves from someone suing because they took advice over the internet and it didn't work out?
Carpet and rentals do not go together. Especially when the tenants have multiple animals or children. Might as well kiss that carpet good bye after a few years.
Use this as a learning experience and replace floors with something durable.
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
Even though you say it is much better I urge you to paint the subfloor. Heat and moisture will tend to bring out the odor again at some point but sealing with paint should cure the issue. Moving forward using tile or laminate alleviates the issue
So in NH as long as I the carpet is 4 years old I can use as a canvas for my paint or a lawn for my dog without any repercussions ?
I try to make tenant deposit deductions based on what I am willing/able to defend. Our small claims courts are run by elected officials that may or may not be attorneys. In my experience, being prepared with documentation goes a long way. In 25+ years, I have never had a tenant challenge a deduction in court.....many whine about it though
Getting damages in excess of the deposit in Texas is fruitless as we have no garnishment and judgements are nearly impossible to collect
Using tile or laminate alleviates the issue
You can garnish bank accounts in Texas. It's not quite as easy as getting a chunk of each paycheck, but it can allow you to collect judgments.
Originally posted by @Nicole A.:
Why do some of us have to preface or end our posts with "no legal advice given"? I notice that a lot throughout the forums. Are people seriously trying to protect themselves from someone suing because they took advice over the internet and it didn't work out?
When I say that, it is usually because I want to make clear that I am giving general advice and not legal advice that may apply to their specific facts. I also want to make sure that it is clear that we have not established an attorney-client relationship, that I have no duty to you, and that our conversations are not privileged. It is intended to protect against ethics complaints to the bar (and it makes my firm happy). For those who are not lawyers, it may be an effort to ensure they are not engaged in the unlicensed practice of law.
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
As I said, I believe the damage was beyond normal wear and tear. The chances of you getting a judgment may be greater than 50-50, the chances of you collecting on that judgment is probably less than 10%. The deposit was your 100% opportunity to collect on some of the damages. Never let the deposit be the last months rent no matter how great the tenant may seem
This guide from Montgomery County, MD, is instructive. The guide indicates that this would be "damage," but nonetheless says that the tenant is only responsible for the replacement cost multiplied by the remaining useful life percentage. In the case of carpet more than 5 years old, the landlord would be entitled to nothing even though the tenant damaged the carpet. Maryland is fairly tenant friendly, and Montgomery County is more so, but I think many courts would look at it this way.
http://montgomerycountymd.gov/DHCA/Resources/Files/housing/landlordtenant/ordinary_wear_tear.pdf
Originally posted by @Stephen Chittenden:
Originally posted by @Greg H.:Even though you say it is much better I urge you to paint the subfloor. Heat and moisture will tend to bring out the odor again at some point but sealing with paint should cure the issue. Moving forward using tile or laminate alleviates the issue
So in NH as long as I the carpet is 4 years old I can use as a canvas for my paint or a lawn for my dog without any repercussions ?
I try to make tenant deposit deductions based on what I am willing/able to defend. Our small claims courts are run by elected officials that may or may not be attorneys. In my experience, being prepared with documentation goes a long way. In 25+ years, I have never had a tenant challenge a deduction in court.....many whine about it though
Getting damages in excess of the deposit in Texas is fruitless as we have no garnishment and judgements are nearly impossible to collect
Using tile or laminate alleviates the issue
You can garnish bank accounts in Texas. It's not quite as easy as getting a chunk of each paycheck, but it can allow you to collect judgments.
I was referring to wage garnishment. You are correct that you can go after a bank account in which you have to sue the bank. However, this is a very difficult process and will require a lawyer which more than likely will cost more than the judgment itself.
5.5 years, same tenants, always paid on time? It sounds like you got a good deal.
I wouldn't go after the cost of the carpet and installation, as that isn't an unexpected cost after five years. However, the hassle of dealing with sealing the floor is understandably annoying. I'd put together a very reasonable bill for that. Nothing more than the original security deposit.
Like mentioned above, make sure to use killz, or some other sealant to cover the subfloor. You shouldn't have to replace anything unless the wood is phsically warped or rotted. Some else mentioned Nature's Miracle. That stuff works well, but I've found vinegar and water is almost just as good. You still need to seal it though. Also make sure to check under the lip of the baseboard if you can see into the wall
I'm a big fan of vinyle plank floors, since they are almost industructible, and water proof. Laminate flooring can easily be damaged by pets as well. I was just replacing a section of laminate in house where animal urine had soaked in to the crack, causing the particle board backing to swell up like sponge push through to the surface.
Hate to sound like a broken record but you are getting good advice here.
1. If you sue for carpet replacement you will lose.
2. You MUST spray the subfloors.. It will be a mess if you put in new carpet and the smell remains. I have dealt with this often in Rehabs...
shellac based Zinsser B-I-N primer is the best at covering up odors.. make sure it's the Shellac based Primer.
I would suggest asking the tenant to pay for the primer and replacement of the padding as this would not have been required if the dogs hadn't peed over it.
Ray
None of us like to lose money.....California is clear that the deposit can't be used for the last months rent. A judge will likely remind you that the deposit is for making those kinds of repairs as he rules in the defendants favor.
The real question is are you ready to admit a lessons learned and do you really want to spend your time fighting them over it no you will likely lose?
WOW, thank you for everyone who posted! This post is littered with gold nuggets and truly great (non legal) advice (LOL). Next time I "have" to rip up the carpet, I'm putting down plastic if I decide to go with carpet again.
@Jeff G. Thanks for posting it for us to "discuss" it. Sorry it happened to you. Let us know what you decide to do from here. Keep us in the loop.
@Jeff G. Im just curious how your situation ended up being resolved?
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Russell and all - After completing removal of the horrible smelly carpet, the house still smelled pretty bad. So I sprayed a soaking layer of vinegar on every square inch of the plywood 2nd story floor & stairs, which helped but didn't eliminate the odor. However a painted on layer of Kilz did. Now the house smells perfect-O. So after finishing that, showering myself, and calming down, I decided to just let it go ... not pursue money from them; consider it a lesson learned & be happy they paid their rent on time, every time for 5.5 years.
I sure appreciate all of the responses you all were nice enough to post here.
After your 29th PM post, I am hoping you got it fixed.
It was a good board and some helpful views and advice.
I have been here 2-3 times. It happens. Actually, in my experience with bad urine issues, you may not be done (or you may).
I pull the carpet/pad and tack strip, use a bleach water solution to mop subfloor (with respirator) rinse, then after dry, I also use the oil based kilz on subfloor (pretty thick, respirator a must); then, and I am rooting for you Jeff, and hoping you do not need the next step..... but if you still smell it.....
I even find severe urine can be in the walls, from both peeing/spraying on lower walls and trims and I think (not sure exact science) it even permeates surfaces of sheet goods (like sheetrock, paneling etc). Tobacco and cat pee are the worst. But dog pee can get there, too. I discovered this by trial and error--working away on floors but finding it is actually in the walls (so don't tear up subfloor if it still has lingering odor, but see below)....
So my final step in the pet urine disaster is to TSP all the walls and ceilings, rinse, and then apply Kilz or equivalent sealer designed for odors. I also have had luck with Shellac based ones, too. Then top with good paint.
Problem rooms, areas and along floors, I even TSP and rinse all wood--and use a stain polyurethane on wood trim, base, molding. I find pulling all the base floor molding key as the pee residue is on the back side and trapped.
Who said landlording was glamorous, right.... battling odors is probably one of the low points. I feel tenants like these literally run themselves out, finally unable to stand the smell any longer, they move on...
My two cents on chasing them for costs or eating it... I could see either side, but I take all my energy (or anger) and put it into prepping the rental unit. It is a positive way forward. I know I can do it and I am not sure how the court battle would end (or how much it would cost or if I could even collect a judgment).... In the end, I drop about 10 lbs by the time I remediate the bad odors on 2 BR unit. I do all the work myself, so the costs are just paint/sealer and laminate floor (which I replace carpet with on all ground floor units)... I have a like new unit (new floors, all new paint) and focus on the next tenant.