Plumbing/sewer question on a fourplex regarding ejector pump/pit.

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Plumbing/sewer question on a fourplex regarding ejector pump/pit.

Navid A.
Investor · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2021 · 39 posts · 32 votes

Hi

I bought a fourplex a month ago. Two weeks in, I had a complaint of raw sewage in the garage of one of the units. They did snake the pipe and baby wipes came out.  The problem solved for the time.

A few days later, another unit started having sewage in the garage. Plumber mentioned there is a ejector/grinder pump in one of the units that handles all sewage from all 4 units.

They replaced the ejector pump and in 2 weeks, same issue happened with the sewage leaking in the garage. The plumber came back saying the either the pump was burned/failed because of too many wipes being flushed down or when "an outside vendor" did snaking the pipe, it damaged the pump.


He also mentions the "pit" where all the sewage from the fourplex comes to is too large, corroded and needs to be fixed:

"using gravel to fill in the existing voids present around
the pit, then install a new pit with the extension lid
needed. Once the new pit is installed we’d install a
proper vent to restrict the sewer gases from getting into
the home. We’d complete repairs by re-concreting
around the lid of the pit in that garage floor. Estimate of
$5,250 to complete this."

My question is, is that really necessary to "upgrade" the pit? My concern is that I do not want to keep replacing the "ejector pump". Not sure why the ejector pump failed after two weeks. 

I had the property manager to issue notice to tenants to stop flushing down baby wipes! Below is a pic of the "pit" which the plumber says its too large.

Any feedback is appreciated!

Thank you.

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Account Closed
Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
5y

Sounds like oyu are getting b.s. from the plumber. Most plumbers don't know a lot about sewage ejector pumps because there is not a high percent of them around compared to the millions of properties. I run a fairly large plumbing company with 20 employees and even my company gets only a few calls every year for sewage ejector pumps and since the pumps and pits are so nasty we turn the calls away.

It is impossible for a plumber's snake to ruin a sewage ejector pump and they are made to handle Tampons and baby wipes. Although, it is a good idea to ask your tenants to refrain from putting anything in the toilets with the exception of human waste and toilet paper because it is possible some tenant overloads their toilet with the wrong items. You may want to send your tenants frequent letters and note to remind them and include dental floss in your list.

It does not take a rocket scientist to replace a sewage ejector pump and any decent (not the idiots) handyman should be able to replace one. Check with local plumbing wholesalers and ask for a price. Don't know about your area, but in California a high percent of plumbing wholesalers sell to the general public. Then, there are many other companies that sell every plumbing product for more-retail prices.

A sewage ejector pump does not cost more than $300 to $450 at the very max and they take about 15 minutes to install after the tank is opened and the crap is removed. We use a Home Depot wet-dry vacuum to remove the crap and we put the crap in a few plastic trash cans. Always remove the paper filter from the vacuum.

It is a super stinky and nasty-smelling job and that is probably why your plumber(s) want so much money, but anything more than $1500 is far too much money. Don't call the large plumbing companies with the pretty trucks. 

It looks like the pump is connected to an ABS (plastic) drain pipe going into the ground and that like should not be clogging, at all, if the pump is working properly.

Every plumbing system with a pump needs a high number of clean-outs to access the pipe so you can clean the pipes with the proper equipment. You may need to look for a good company that does hydro-jetting and the same company backs of their work by putting a camera in the sewer. 

Unfortunately, plumbers are notorious for being very ignorant and notorious for ripping off their customers. This makes it almost impossible to tell whether or not you are getting truthful advice because it is every plumber's duty to their boss to generate sales. So, if you call multiple plumbing companies it is possible you will get the same untruthful advice from every company. This is the reason you need to ask enough questions so you understand the problems so clearly you should be able to change the pump yourself and then find the best company to hydro-jet the sewer system.

One serious problem you may be having is; since your pump was probably not working properly your sewer pipes may be filled with sludge. No plumber's snake can remove the sludge. So, this is why you may need a hydro-jetter.

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  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    Sounds like oyu are getting b.s. from the plumber. Most plumbers don't know a lot about sewage ejector pumps because there is not a high percent of them around compared to the millions of properties. I run a fairly large plumbing company with 20 employees and even my company gets only a few calls every year for sewage ejector pumps and since the pumps and pits are so nasty we turn the calls away.

    It is impossible for a plumber's snake to ruin a sewage ejector pump and they are made to handle Tampons and baby wipes. Although, it is a good idea to ask your tenants to refrain from putting anything in the toilets with the exception of human waste and toilet paper because it is possible some tenant overloads their toilet with the wrong items. You may want to send your tenants frequent letters and note to remind them and include dental floss in your list.

    It does not take a rocket scientist to replace a sewage ejector pump and any decent (not the idiots) handyman should be able to replace one. Check with local plumbing wholesalers and ask for a price. Don't know about your area, but in California a high percent of plumbing wholesalers sell to the general public. Then, there are many other companies that sell every plumbing product for more-retail prices.

    A sewage ejector pump does not cost more than $300 to $450 at the very max and they take about 15 minutes to install after the tank is opened and the crap is removed. We use a Home Depot wet-dry vacuum to remove the crap and we put the crap in a few plastic trash cans. Always remove the paper filter from the vacuum.

    It is a super stinky and nasty-smelling job and that is probably why your plumber(s) want so much money, but anything more than $1500 is far too much money. Don't call the large plumbing companies with the pretty trucks. 

    It looks like the pump is connected to an ABS (plastic) drain pipe going into the ground and that like should not be clogging, at all, if the pump is working properly.

    Every plumbing system with a pump needs a high number of clean-outs to access the pipe so you can clean the pipes with the proper equipment. You may need to look for a good company that does hydro-jetting and the same company backs of their work by putting a camera in the sewer. 

    Unfortunately, plumbers are notorious for being very ignorant and notorious for ripping off their customers. This makes it almost impossible to tell whether or not you are getting truthful advice because it is every plumber's duty to their boss to generate sales. So, if you call multiple plumbing companies it is possible you will get the same untruthful advice from every company. This is the reason you need to ask enough questions so you understand the problems so clearly you should be able to change the pump yourself and then find the best company to hydro-jet the sewer system.

    One serious problem you may be having is; since your pump was probably not working properly your sewer pipes may be filled with sludge. No plumber's snake can remove the sludge. So, this is why you may need a hydro-jetter.

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  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    I have a sewage ejector pump that I installed 23 years ago at the commercial building I am in and the pump never failed one time. The pump is not for human waste. It is for things much worse than toilet paper and Tampons. I installed the pump to handle all the rain water for my entire 8,000 sq ft parking lot and driveway. My employees wash their vehicles and muddy equipment every day and they put a massive amount of rocks, nuts and bolts, wood and all sorts of debris into the pump and it never failed one time.

    Since my pump handles both rain water and the water my employees use to wash their equipment every day I installed a specially made system with electronic valves that makes the water they wash their equipment go into a sediment and filter box and then into the city sewer system and when it rains the electronic valves have a sensor that detects water coming from the roof drain downspouts and valves switch to make the water from the parking lot go into the street. The system cost me a lot of money, but I had to install the system, or get $10,000+ fines for dumping crap into the storm drains that go to the ocean.

    It is important to tell your tenants not to put the plastic part that comes with Tampons into their toilets. The pump should handle everything a tenant puts into their toilet, but better to be safe than sorry.

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  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    One more thing to show how ignorant most plumbers are (and I am a plumber), the discharge (pump side) of your system is ABS (plastic) and most plumbers are too ignorant to realize that ABS (plastic) pipes and joints are not designed for high-pressure water. The discharge side of a sewage ejector should be PVC (plastic) pipe that is designed for high pressure. 

    1Reply
  • Navid A.
    OP
    Investor · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2021 · 39 posts · 32 votes
    5y

    Thank you Jack for your thoughtful replies!

    Interestingly before buying this property I did do jetting the sewer line per inspection recommendation as the inspector could not scope the line due to back up! hydro jetting was done and re scoped the line saying its good. 

    The plumber who I spoke to says the pit in the picture is really big and the cost of labor plus gravel/concrete to make the pit smaller plus the cost of replacing the ejector pump is 5K. He actually already replaced the pump once (had it emptied first and then replaced the pump which he charged $850 plus $380 emptying charge. He also says he won't guarantee the pump with this condition since the pit is too large. If he makes the pit smaller and install the new pump, then he would guarantee it for one year.

    This property is in mid-west and I am out of state, so I can't really do it myself.

    What I am not sure is even if we make the pit smaller per his quote below: Would that solve the failure of the ejector pump? probably not if the tenants keep flushing wipes down. Also another concern is we wont be able to tell who is flushing down wipes as all 4 units are tied to one main line, so we can charge them the cost of plumbing.



    "using gravel to fill in the existing voids present around
    the pit, then install a new pit with the extension lid
    needed. Once the new pit is installed we’d install a
    proper vent to restrict the sewer gases from getting into
    the home. We’d complete repairs by re-concreting
    around the lid of the pit in that garage floor. Estimate of
    $5,250 to complete this."

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Navid A.:

    Thank you Jack for your thoughtful replies!

    Interestingly before buying this property I did do jetting the sewer line per inspection recommendation as the inspector could not scope the line due to back up! hydro jetting was done and re scoped the line saying its good. 

    The plumber who I spoke to says the pit in the picture is really big and the cost of labor plus gravel/concrete to make the pit smaller plus the cost of replacing the ejector pump is 5K. He actually already replaced the pump once (had it emptied first and then replaced the pump which he charged $850 plus $380 emptying charge. He also says he won't guarantee the pump with this condition since the pit is too large. If he makes the pit smaller and install the new pump, then he would guarantee it for one year.

    This property is in mid-west and I am out of state, so I can't really do it myself.

    What I am not sure is even if we make the pit smaller per his quote below: Would that solve the failure of the ejector pump? probably not if the tenants keep flushing wipes down. Also another concern is we wont be able to tell who is flushing down wipes as all 4 units are tied to one main line, so we can charge them the cost of plumbing.



    "using gravel to fill in the existing voids present around
    the pit, then install a new pit with the extension lid
    needed. Once the new pit is installed we’d install a
    proper vent to restrict the sewer gases from getting into
    the home. We’d complete repairs by re-concreting
    around the lid of the pit in that garage floor. Estimate of
    $5,250 to complete this."

    Attached, is a picture of a sewage ejector tank and a pump. This is not an exact picture, but as you see in the picture the outlet (pressure side) of the system is white PVC (plastic) pipe and not black ABS (plastic) pipe.

    It appears that the existing tank you have is plastic and not too large. So, I don't know what the talk about bringing in rocks and concrete is about. Even if you purchased a smaller tank the most you should need is a few bags of sand to fill in any void space.

    The only pump and tank you should use should be a 2 horsepower pump made by Zoeller.

    You definitely need to get several estimates and it is unfortunate that you are not in the area.

    What city is this system in? 

    The 2nd image shows a pump that is actually a grinder and with the correct pump you can grind nuts, bolts and nails. 

    This is a retail price and the best way to figure out what size pump you need is to call Zoeller directly and don't ask a plumber or a plumbing wholesaler because they don't know. You will need to know how many toilets and other fixtures dump into the tank.

    I would be very careful in regards to the information you get from plumbers and take your time.

    You probably need a pump that costs about $500. Some pumps are 220 - 240 volts, 3-phase systems and you may have only a 120 volt 1-phase system.

    0Reply
  • Navid A.
    OP
    Investor · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2021 · 39 posts · 32 votes
    5y

    @Jack Orthman

    I will be getting some estimates about how to go about fixing the void around the pump.

    The PM mentioned we need to fix the pump first (as tenants are complaining about sewage back up in the garage), and then we can get bids on how to fix the void etc. The plumber says the pump he recommends is 1/2 hp should be enough as it pumps 21 gallon per min and should sufficient for the 4plex. He also says this pump should be able to manage toilet papers but not wipes due to their “coarse nature”.

    The property is in Kansas City.

    0Reply
  • Tim Porsche
    Investor · Denver, PA · Member since 2015 · 193 posts · 55 votes
    2y

    Hi @Navid A., just curious what did you ever end up doing with the pump and how has it held up for you? I'm looking at a property now that has a sewer grinder and found your post while doing some research on them.

    0Reply
  • Navid A.
    OP
    Investor · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2021 · 39 posts · 32 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Tim Porsche:

    Hi @Navid A., just curious what did you ever end up doing with the pump and how has it held up for you? I'm looking at a property now that has a sewer grinder and found your post while doing some research on them.


    I ended up upgrading the pump and the pit and it appeared to solve the issue, at lease for another year. The original pit was not up to code and wasn’t efficient. 

    I would not purchase another property with this type of system to be honest. Apparently this system is outdated and not a lot of properties have them. 


    0Reply
  • Navid A.
    OP
    Investor · San Rafael, CA · Member since 2021 · 39 posts · 32 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Navid A.:
    Quote from @Tim Porsche:

    Hi @Navid A., just curious what did you ever end up doing with the pump and how has it held up for you? I'm looking at a property now that has a sewer grinder and found your post while doing some research on them.


    I ended up upgrading the pump and the pit and it appeared to solve the issue, at lease for another year. The original pit was not up to code and wasn’t efficient. 

    I would not purchase another property with this type of system to be honest. Apparently this system is outdated and not a lot of properties have them. 


    I ended up selling the property but not because of the pump. 

    In my situation all units of  4 plex were connected to one pump and made it difficult to pinpoint who was flushing down the tampon! But if it’s a SFR it probably wouldn’t be an issue as you can charge plumbing issue to the tenant.

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