Investor · Newark, DE · Member since 2014 · 245 posts · 198 votes
I am dealing with former low-income tenants who have a free lawyer. He was able to get the eviction dismissed because the pay or quit notices were sent to the tenants in one envelope, rather than separate envelopes addressed to the same house. After the tenants finally moved out, they left damages far beyond the security deposit - a total of 40 drywall holes, sharpie drawings all over the walls, broken doors, broken kitchen cabinets, urine soaked carpets, you name it. Filed in court to get a judgment for the excess damage, and the free lawyer comes up again - asks for receipts for every little deduction, proof that the damage list was sent on time, etc. etc. He is asking the judge to have the case dismissed with prejudice, or at least a continuance.
Would you keep fighting, or just give up? Amount in question is about $1,700.
Thanks for chiming in @Mike Ariasand . Yes, the emotional drain is a bigger problem for me than the $1,700, but it just seems unfair to let them walk without a fight.
The important thing to remember is that they will probably stay losers and never amount to anything in their life, while you will be successful. Being successful is the best revenge.
Investor · Yuma, AZ · Member since 2015 · 27 posts · 20 votes
10y
I would give it up. I have won in court over a dozen times and I have yet to collect a single dime. It's hard to collect from low income tenants. Most don't care if they owe money, it effects their credit or if it's in court records. I know at times it's just for principle alone but sometimes it ends up getting the best of you.
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y
If you let it go, is it going to eat you up every time you think about it? You have to weigh the amount of time it will take you out of your life to fight it. This sounds like a personal decision.
Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Agree that possession is the most important thing to focus on. We don't go after judgements. We turn it into collections, which puts it on their credit report to warn other landlords. We have walked away from far more, and are happy to do so as long we get possession. If low income tenants didn't behave this way their rent could be even lower, landlords have to charge more to cover these types of periodic losses and still make a return to make it worthwhile, it really is a shame.
Investor · Newark, DE · Member since 2014 · 245 posts · 198 votes
10y
Thanks for chiming in @Mike Ariasand @Dawn Anastasi. Yes, the emotional drain is a bigger problem for me than the $1,700, but it just seems unfair to let them walk without a fight.
@Jeff B., I see your point. I do not expect to recover much if anything, but at least the judgment on their record would be a red flag for the next landlord they apply with.
Thanks for chiming in @Mike Ariasand . Yes, the emotional drain is a bigger problem for me than the $1,700, but it just seems unfair to let them walk without a fight.
The important thing to remember is that they will probably stay losers and never amount to anything in their life, while you will be successful. Being successful is the best revenge.
Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
10y
agree with board.. Even if you win you may lose (because as you mention they are "low income") and they may be judgment proof.... So you may not be able to collect anything in the near future.. And the likelihood of prevailing may be reduced if they are represented.
I would spend the time and energy on turning the unit around and getting new (better) tenants.. This always feels like positive energy to me with a definite, controllable outcome, whereas with the court case it is just the opposite...
If you have them out and never have to see them again, you are a winner in my book...
Investor · Newark, DE · Member since 2014 · 245 posts · 198 votes
10y
Makes sense @Michele Fischer. The issue here is that I do not have a judgment yet, and if their free lawyer is successful in getting this case dismissed like the eviction, the former tenants would have clean record - at least from their tenancy with me.
Investor · Newark, DE · Member since 2014 · 245 posts · 198 votes
10y
A few pictures to show what they would walk away from scot free if I give up... Yes, this is dog feces and urine on the hardwood floor if you were wondering. Had to sand that multiple times before staining it to reduce the stench...
Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes
10y
I can see why you would be frustrated with that tenant. If it is any consolation, in my state both the eviction and the civil case would be viewable (even if dismissed) in the online court records site (court view) and my application (Nolo) asks "have you ever been sued" (if yes, explain)..granted they may not tell other landlords,with such a question on their app. But you have given careful future landlords some clues here, and they would have a gap in their rental history from their time with you. And I would suspect you have already talked with their housing authority manager if section 8.
Best of luck either way and keep us posted whether you fight on or not.
Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2015 · 58 posts · 6 votes
10y
If I would at your place will give up. Perhaps you will never get it to back. If you are more thinking on this emotionally you will be drain. Please keep updating us.
I have "let it go" in the past when it comes to money that was owed to me by an outgoing tenant because I was happy to just get possession back and it wasn't worth chasing the money. It was basically a business decision where I decided that my time was more valuable than money that I may never collect anyway.
However, I have a completely different viewpoint when it comes to money that is owed for intentional damage/vandalism to one of my properties. When that happens, my own personal policy is that I won't just "let it go". In fact, later this month I have a scheduled appearance in small claims court for my first ever lawsuit against a tenant who left owing thousands of dollars in back rent and damage to the property (over $6,000). Funny thing is, I was considering just forgetting about the back rent ($2,300).....right up until the point I discovered all the intentional damage that was done to my property.
So I understand both sides of it.
What you posted in those photos is clearly intentional damage/vandalism by someone who didn't respect your property. So I know what I'd do, but you have to do what's best for you (and your sanity).
May I suggest though, if nothing else, at LEAST turn the tenant over to collections and/or report the debt on their credit report so future landlords can be warned (at least those who bother to do proper tenant screening). You don't even need a court judgment to do it. Plus, who knows, maybe one day you'll actually collect something.
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
10y
Didn't read reply, I'm sure there is good advice.
What I would do with that is spend money on a good attorney and press for criminal charges, a local attorney can give you the best advice and this is not just wear and tear but major vandalism. You might get some free advice, maybe action, out of your DA! That usually begins with a police report, just a report as the police won't issue any tickets, usually, in such cases. I'd be going for blood! (LOL) :)
Investor · Newark, DE · Member since 2014 · 245 posts · 198 votes
10y
Thanks @Kyle J. and @Bill Gulley. Their claim is that this is not vandalism but the result of domestic violence issues. Police were called numerous times by the neighbors in the past, and their stance was that I cannot take any action against them because they want victims of domestic violence to be able to call police without fear of eviction. I had to wait for the lease to expire and non-renew them, and then file to evict as holdover - which was dismissed thanks to the free attorney and me putting the notices in one envelope.
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
10y
Horsefeathers! Their excuse of committing one crime to committing another is plain horsefeathers!
Either he or she or they, probably him, got mad and took it out on the property, if you knew about it sometime ago, you should have terminated the lease, committing a crime or assault or having a lover's spat isn't a free card to destroy the property anywhere. If that excuse came from an attorney they were blowing smoke. :)
Thanks @Kyle J. and @Bill Gulley. Their claim is that this is not vandalism but the result of domestic violence issues. Police were called numerous times by the neighbors in the past, and their stance was that I cannot take any action against them because they want victims of domestic violence to be able to call police without fear of eviction. I had to wait for the lease to expire and non-renew them, and then file to evict as holdover - which was dismissed thanks to the free attorney and me putting the notices in one envelope.
Some states have laws that protect renters who are victim's of domestic violence. Generally, that protection is limited to allowing them to break a lease early with no penalty. However, that doesn't include staying rent-free (i.e. a holdover).
Also, there can be other protections afforded by the law (in some areas), such as the victim may not be responsible for damage directly caused by domestic violence (though the abuser still could and wasn't he your tenant too?).
In any event, from looking at your photos, I think they'd have a really hard time convincing a judge that domestic violence caused the dog to urinate and defecate on the floor and/or caused someone to write on the wall in permanent marker. And none of that damage is normal wear and tear.
But like I said before, you have to do what's right for you. Good luck.
Thanks @Kyle J. and @Bill Gulley. Their claim is that this is not vandalism but the result of domestic violence issues. Police were called numerous times by the neighbors in the past, and their stance was that I cannot take any action against them because they want victims of domestic violence to be able to call police without fear of eviction. I had to wait for the lease to expire and non-renew them, and then file to evict as holdover - which was dismissed thanks to the free attorney and me putting the notices in one envelope.
Some states have laws that protect renters who are victim's of domestic violence. Generally, that protection is limited to allowing them to break a lease early with no penalty. However, that doesn't include staying rent-free (i.e. a holdover).
Also, there can be other protections afforded by the law (in some areas), such as the victim may not be responsible for damage directly caused by domestic violence (though the abuser still could and wasn't he your tenant too?).
In any event, from looking at your photos, I think they'd have a really hard time convincing a judge that domestic violence caused the dog to urinate and defecate on the floor and/or caused someone to write on the wall in permanent marker. And none of that damage is normal wear and tear.
But like I said before, you have to do what's right for you. Good luck.
I agree, I'm aware of the privacy side to call the police, the call wasn't the issue, the reason to evict isn't based on the call or the circumstances. As you said, the victim isn't responsible for damage from an attacker, domestic or otherwise, could be any attacker and the attacker is the one responsible. And, you're right, the drawings on the walls and mess is a clear indication that the damage was intended to be directed at the landlord, not the spouse. That's why I said..........horsefeathers! :)
Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
I don't know if your state is different, but we don't need a judgement to ding their credit report. We do have to turn in the proper back-up to the collection agency. I'm guessing that if they fought it that it would be removed, but my tenants don't watch their credit.
That being said, a lawyer buddy of mine once offered some advice when I wanted to go after somebody.
We were selling a house and a shady foundation repair company offered "free estimates" so our potential buyer took them up on it. Of course they found something wrong so my buyer wanted a discount. FWIW, there were no foundation issues, just shrinkage cracks.
My buddy asked one simple question: "What do you want?"
I wanted to sell the house. We would still make money. So I just sold the house and dropped going after the foundation company.
You will spend more time and money than the $1700. It sucks that they get away with what they did, but try to put it behind you and move on.
Thanks @Kyle J. and @Bill Gulley. Their claim is that this is not vandalism but the result of domestic violence issues. Police were called numerous times by the neighbors in the past, and their stance was that I cannot take any action against them because they want victims of domestic violence to be able to call police without fear of eviction. I had to wait for the lease to expire and non-renew them, and then file to evict as holdover - which was dismissed thanks to the free attorney and me putting the notices in one envelope.
So dog feces and urine on the floor, and coloring on the walls was due to domestic violence? That's a new one to me.
St Thomas, Ontario · Member since 2013 · 575 posts · 408 votes
10y
@Dawn Anastasi is right on, the writing on the wall and dog feces - the claim that damage such as this is due to domestic violence is simply not credible.
@Rumen Mladenov I think you should fight. I am surprised that the damages are only $1,700, but I think you should go for them anyway. This can be a warning to future landlords. I had a bad tenant who left an incredible number of cigarette burns throughout the carpet and so much damage to walls that the place had to be repainted. Total cost for completely replacing flooring and repainting was $6,000. A lot of people on the board say that you should move on, I did not. I got the tenant to agree to a payment plan of $500 a month, but this dried up after he had paid $2,000. Better than nothing but I wanted to chase the full amount. So I went to small claims and got a default judgment. I considered my options and decided to hand it to a collections agency. Both the judgment and the collections activity go on his credit report as separate line items. As has been noted the tenant may not pay but at least future landlords are warned that this person has a history. If you give in and don't pursue this you will regret it. Just show the judge the photographs that you posted on this board. They speak for themselves.
Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2015 · 374 posts · 120 votes
10y
If I went after everyone who has moved out and left damage in the past 3 years, I estimate I'd have about $10,000 in judgements (for rent and damages) and $0 in collected cash. MAYBE $500 in cash if I went full force with skip tracers, etc.
A judgement means nothing if you can't collect. Continue if you are sure you can convert that judgement into cash.