Self managing, to Using a PM, to Hiring in-house PM

Self managing, to Using a PM, to Hiring in-house PM

Owen DashnerPro Member
Lender · Omaha, NE · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I started out on the same path that most rental property investors do.  I bought a single family rental while working a full-time job, kept acquiring more rentals over the years while self managing, until I hit about 20 units.  At that point, I decided I wanted to get bigger, and had to swallow the bitter pill of giving up some of my hard earned cashflow to a 3rd party property management company so that I could keep my sanity, my job and my family life while continuing to grow the business.  

I will soon have over 60 units, the majority of them now multifamily. While my life has gotten much easier since hiring a PM, I keep thinking about eventually bringing it back in house and hiring a property manager to work directly for me so that our financial incentives are better aligned and costs can be reduced.  I am at that awkward size where I am not really big enough to hire full-time staff, but too big to handle on my own and do a good job at it.

I would like to hear from others that have been through this transition.  At what point (number of units and/or revenue and/or expense ratio) did you make the decision to hire staff, and is the person full time?  Salaried/hourly?  Benefits?  How do you provide incentives for performance?  What skills and experience did you require?  Do you have the person handle the front end activities (advertising the properties, showings, leasing, customer service, dispatching) as well as back office (collections, bookkeeping, technology/CRM)?  

Lots of questions, obiviously, so I appreciate any veteran feedback.

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San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 238 posts · 204 votes
9y

@Owen Dashner - When I was looking at management, I asked the BRE (Bureau of Real Estate) this exact question. Here is what I found out for our LLCs -- I can hire an administrative person to become an employee of my LLC. They can help with the day-to-day tasks as long as:

  1. They are not holding my rent collection (that goes directly to our bank account).
  2. They are not the decision maker. I am the one signing the leases and renewals.

I'm not a lawyer and would love to see a website that clearly outlines this for all 50 States. 

Even the BRE mentioned some "grey" areas and could not give me 100% answers to my questions. For example, I asked if someone who is unlicensed could show my property. They said "as long as that person is just opening a door" but that doesn't help me know whether this person can answer the question of "how many bedrooms are there?"

I would even recommend that you get (in writing) something from your State's department to confirm that you are conforming to regulations. I was able to get that from the States where we operate.

Final point, if you have an admin come in to help with your LLCs, then I recommend he/she takes a class in Fair Housing. It is very important (even if he/she is just picking up phone calls to schedule a showing) for that person to understand fair housing laws.

I hope that helps somewhat.

Dana

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  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    First requirement is a PM must

    1. own the property itself OR
    2. be an agent working with a broker who holds a license

    As an owner, we can not hire friends or neighbors to manage our properties- - in most States, so be careful with this decision - - do it correctly to say out of trouble.

  • Owen DashnerPro Member
    OP
    Lender · Omaha, NE · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Jeff B., thanks, but I am asking about transitioning to hiring PM staff in house to manage my own properties, not a 3rd party PM.

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    AND YOU CAN'T DO THAT - - read it again.

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    You manager would need to sign contracts, accept payments as well as move-in deposits.  These require an AGENT relationship and an escrow account for the deposits.

    Verify for yourself the Property Manager Requirements for you State.

  • Investor · Bentonville, AR · Member since 2014 · 759 posts · 379 votes
    9y

    @Owen Dashner I think he is saying check your state laws to make sure that's doable in case you were to hire someone who isn't licensed.. I would guess Nebraska or Iowa don't have that law, but I could be wrong.

    I guess from a $ standpoint could you pay someone $15 hr (roughly) for 40 hours a week to do as good of a job as your PM? That would be the starting point for me on whether to entertain it or not. I can't imagine you would find someone for less to do as well...

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Zach Quick:

    @Owen Dashner I think he is saying check your state laws to make sure that's doable in case you were to hire someone who isn't licensed.. I would guess Nebraska or Iowa don't have that law, but I could be wrong.

    I guess from a $ standpoint could you pay someone $15 hr (roughly) for 40 hours a week to do as good of a job as your PM? That would be the starting point for me on whether to entertain it or not. I can't imagine you would find someone for less to do as well...

     and that makes you an employer - - oh such fun dealing with Workman's Comp, SSI, and withholding

  • Owen DashnerPro Member
    OP
    Lender · Omaha, NE · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying originally.  Nebraska and Iowa both list a broker's license as a requirement for managing other owners' property, but I know several PM's that do not have a broker's license (or even a Salesperson license).  So conflicting information is why I wasn't sure about this.

    I have heard several investors on the podcasts (not just on BP, but others as well) that talk of having their own in-house PM.  I just want to know how they got to that point - got their own broker's license as step one?

  • CCIM · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2014 · 341 posts · 170 votes
    9y

    Hey @Owen Dashner,

    I own and manage my own property. You don't need to be an agent to manage property in Iowa. You are correct, if they work for you, they can manage for you. You will have the workers comp and other issues like Jeff said, but with enough properties, it could certainly make sense. I'm in the middle of that transition myself, somewhat. I never hired a property manager, but have hired a full time VA and full time maintenance, which I'm training to do a lot of management duties.

    I've transitioned from 70 hour weeks to about 5-10. And I'm paying about the same as if I had professional management. That doesn't sound too amazing since I have to mamange them, but as I add property, I start to see the savings. And I believe the properties are managed much better than if I had outside management. 

    Go Do!

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Assuming @Chase Keller is correct (verify verify verify), then apparently your State allows this option.

    "Always doubt what you hear and verify what you read" - - it will keep you both happy and sane :)

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 238 posts · 204 votes
    9y

    @Owen Dashner - When I was looking at management, I asked the BRE (Bureau of Real Estate) this exact question. Here is what I found out for our LLCs -- I can hire an administrative person to become an employee of my LLC. They can help with the day-to-day tasks as long as:

    1. They are not holding my rent collection (that goes directly to our bank account).
    2. They are not the decision maker. I am the one signing the leases and renewals.

    I'm not a lawyer and would love to see a website that clearly outlines this for all 50 States. 

    Even the BRE mentioned some "grey" areas and could not give me 100% answers to my questions. For example, I asked if someone who is unlicensed could show my property. They said "as long as that person is just opening a door" but that doesn't help me know whether this person can answer the question of "how many bedrooms are there?"

    I would even recommend that you get (in writing) something from your State's department to confirm that you are conforming to regulations. I was able to get that from the States where we operate.

    Final point, if you have an admin come in to help with your LLCs, then I recommend he/she takes a class in Fair Housing. It is very important (even if he/she is just picking up phone calls to schedule a showing) for that person to understand fair housing laws.

    I hope that helps somewhat.

    Dana

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Dana Dunford:

    @Owen Dashner - When I was looking at management, I asked the BRE (Bureau of Real Estate) this exact question. Here is what I found out for our LLCs --

     BRAVO Dana;  Well research, confirmed by mine, and succinctly expressed.

    The LLC per se is not part of the problem, but decision making and who holds deposits is spot on - - again BRAVO!

  • San Francisco, CA · Member since 2016 · 238 posts · 204 votes
    9y

    @Jeff B. - Thanks Jeff. Glad you got somewhat the same answers, albeit vague with some scenarios (and geez -- the BRE has you wait forever on the phone so if anyone knows a direct line then I'd love that number :)).

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Dana Dunford:

    @Jeff B. - Thanks Jeff. Glad you got somewhat the same answers, albeit vague with some scenarios (and geez -- the BRE has you wait forever on the phone so if anyone knows a direct line then I'd love that number :)).

     Actually, I just kept googling until I found the right website for Calif.  Sorry, I long forgot which one but your succinct response jogged by memory nicely.  Also confirm customer service today is deplorable almost everywhere, so being able to verify information is non-trivial.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Lincoln, NE · Member since 2016 · 144 posts · 71 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Owen Dashner:

    Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying originally.  Nebraska and Iowa both list a broker's license as a requirement for managing other owners' property, but I know several PM's that do not have a broker's license (or even a Salesperson license).  So conflicting information is why I wasn't sure about this.

    I have heard several investors on the podcasts (not just on BP, but others as well) that talk of having their own in-house PM.  I just want to know how they got to that point - got their own broker's license as step one?

    I'm not sure about Iowa, but in Nebraska you (or your employee) can self manage properties you own.  You can not manage other peoples properties with out a license.

  • Levi T.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ / Nice FR / Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    If someone is your employee, they act as an extension of you, even if you require them to pay their own taxes as 1099 employee... Only place it likely is not legal is California, because it's California!!

    I know a good number of LL's with 50 or more that have people operating their portfolio to their specification as part-time employees. I just bought some buildings off a guy who had the office manager of real estate assessments for the county running his portfolio. Some pay a flat fee, other's pay by the hour.

    You need to start using Appfolio or Buildium if your gong to go this route, because paper management and payments, is sooo 1980s!

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    There is certainly a give and take to using a PM.  If you purchased the properties with enough room, built in for the cost of a PM and their charges and make enough cash flow, taking the properties in house probably isn't worth the headache.  It allows you to continue to buy more and focus on what you are good at.  Being a PM is very time intensive to do it right.  

  • Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2016 · 970 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Great thread! Learning a lot. Hope the responses keep coming :)

  • Owen DashnerPro Member
    OP
    Lender · Omaha, NE · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Update: I just spoke to the Nebraska Real Estate Commission, and I was informed that I could hire someone without a RE license on a W2 basis, either full-time or part-time, and they could perform property management for me without restriction as long as it is on my properties.  Hiring a 1099 contractor to perform these duties is not allowed unless they are either a family member, or hold a RE license.  

  • Investor · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2016 · 20 posts · 8 votes
    9y

    Great information in this thread! Thanks for keeping us updated.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y

    @Owen Dashner You should do a cost analysis to see how much you would actually save bringing it in house. Let's say you have 60 units that rent for $600 per month each. At 8% management fee, that would be around $35K per year. That is not much money to hire employees and pay benefits. Of course you would need to train them and when they leave, you need to train the new person. I could be low on your monthly rents and there could be extra leasing and maintenance fees, so my numbers could be way off. Regardless, a cost analysis will show you quickly how practical it is to hire a staff. My gut tells me you don't have enough units to run your own PM unless you take on other external customers. You may be able to hire part time person help and do more yourself as an option. 

    Another idea is to negotiate a better rate with your current property manager. You are better off without the management headaches.

  • Owen DashnerPro Member
    OP
    Lender · Omaha, NE · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Joe Splitrock, you are correct in that I don't have enough currently to support it, this is for longer term when the business has enough revenue to justify it.  But, this is not as easy as a straight line calculation of 8% management fee x annual revenue = total cost of 3rd party PM.  There are extra leasing fees, maintenance costs, advertising, etc. etc.  Plus the fact that there are some things that are not so easy to quantify.  Like the fact that some 3rd party PM's take upcharges or "dispatch fees" on external vendor work.  So that means they have financial incentive to go with a higher vendor bid than to save you money.  I would say it's similar for material purchases since they are pass-through costs - zero incentive to bargain shop for you.  

    I'm not saying all 3rd party PM companies are out to get you, but let's be honest, if they don't have an ownership stake in your property, their financial interests are not always aligned with yours and in many cases are opposed to it.

  • Real Estate Broker · Hugo, MN · Member since 2016 · 688 posts · 596 votes
    9y
    Joe Splitrock I would disagree with your assessment that PM goals are not aligned with the owners. There are bad PMs out there just like there are bad owners. I never in any of the companies I have worked for or in my own ever thought to run up prices for a higher cut. It has been just the opposite, I have got quarterly bonuses for coming in under budget. For my own company management is no different for a property that we fee manage or for one that we own ourselves. We are usually willing to be 10% partners after putting up our share in cash on new acquisitions. Properties that are managed long term will have lower occupancy if not managed well. I can tell you countless stories of owners that literally handicapped me from making them much more money because they were more concerned with saving dimes while it cost dollars in the long run. They didn't understand how to increase the property value, they just wanted more short term money. For these properties we choose to not renew our contract with them since they are more trouble than they are worth. I understand an owner that monitors, but it is difficult when they don't trust my experience in these situations. This is what I do and all I think about. Owners need to find a PM they trust, be sure to monitor them and let them do the job they hire them to do. If they aren't making good decisions move on to another. I understand wanting to manage when you first start out. I don't understand why an investor would want to start a PM company. Do they start lawn and snowplowing business to service their properties? What about granite countertops, plumbing and roofing companies? Do what you do well and make your money there. Spreading out to save a little money and be in control will only make you busy (I invest so one day I won't have to work) These in-house companies seem to often be sued for fair housing and such. I was offered a job by one in the twin cities for a incredible amount of money and turned it down because of their horrible press coverage and fair housing violations, I didn't want my named associated with them since they lost their rental licenses in Minneapolis. Most property managers will want to work for professional management companies my assumption (please I don't mean to offend anyone) was that if the owner started his own in-house he was too cheap or a control freak either way I didn't want to work in that atmosphere (I know there are great in-house companies out there too). Consider that when you think you will just hire your own manager, many PMs may not consider your company.
  • Owen DashnerPro Member
    OP
    Lender · Omaha, NE · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Amber Gonion, I appreciate your perspective and wish every person/company was as altruistic as you.  

    There are obviously good reasons for doing what I'm describing when scaling a business.  Unfortunately, none of the larger investors that have actually done it have chimed in.




  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y
  • Real Estate Broker · Hugo, MN · Member since 2016 · 688 posts · 596 votes
    9y

    We manage 10 units up to 300, but there many companies out there that handle sfh, and units less than 10 units.    What would be the savings if typical charge for 50+ units is 5% of collected rents?   Of that 2% would be profit after paying payroll and overhead.  2% of collected rents with average large building expenses between 40-50% that would mean hiring a PM would be taking about 1% -1.2% of your profits.  We make money by pooling managers and maintenance so your 1% would get eaten up pretty quickly in excess employee waste, it's tough to hire a 28 hour a week manager.   That 1% would give you a company that does nothing but focus on management and acquisition and keeps up in the fair housing laws that are constantly changing.

    Spending your time finding a good PM company is much easier than spending your time finding PMs, leasing agents, maintenance techs, and running the PM company. 

    I don't renter anyone ever telling me that you can build wealth running a PM company, creating wealth is done by buying real estate investments.  The time and anxiety are not worth it.

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