Advice - Plumbing Problem - Idiot tenants

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Advice - Plumbing Problem - Idiot tenants

Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
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Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes

So my idiot tenants used paper towels as toilet paper for some time and clogged their 3rd floor bathroom.  The first floor and second floor tenants have not been having problems.  We had the handyman out about a month ago and he pulled out 2-3 rolls of paper towels.  Then last week the tenants complained that the toilet was not flushing and it was backing up into the bathtub.  

I had the main rodded down all three floors and the problem was solved.  Yesterday it started happening again, you flush the toilet and the bowl fills up with water.  If you plunge it then it backs up into the bathtub.  The sewer company came out again yesterday and rodded it 75 feet and it was all clear, but then it started happening again. 

I have been out there 5 times and have had two different sets of professionals come out.  Any advice or ideas on what the problem is? 

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Frank S.
Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 870 posts · 345 votes
9y
Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

@Frank S. - You are using words I don't understand, which is probably a good thing in this situation.  I am about to jump off a bridge, and while it is nice out this weekend the water is still very cold.

I had a third professional out last night.  They rodded it again (third time this week from the same company, took off the toilet and did it) but their camera is too big to go down the 2 inch pipe.  

So I talked with a guy who talked to a guy who has a fiberoptic camera.  He seemed very knowledgeable on the phone and is coming out Monday, but in the meantime it has been over a week without being able to "trust the flush" 

 Brie, 

I am sorry you are going through this. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. Below is more info and translation of the lingo. 

I hope you are getting reputable contractors; handymen could be a huge waste of time troubleshooting. 

Is this a typical Chicago bath arrangement?  If so, it should look very similar to the image below.  The stack ( main vertical pipe)  should be immediately behind the toilet and from there a branch picks up the sink and tub. 

Toilets have a 4 inch waste in Chicago, it could be 3", but certainly not 2". Why are they videotaping a 2", it makes no sense.  The California bend is the fitting that connects the toilet. 

Toilets have an internal trap, it may be full of paper towels. 

They should use an auger to clean your toilet's internal trap, or replace the toilet. 

They should use this machine, the K-400 is called, on your main sewer,  not the smaller ones.

They should use this on your 2" lines.  Don't use the hand ones. 

Here is a drum trap.  Note that is not a p-trap.   Sometimes they are buried or you can see a little round cover on the tile floor. They are hard to clean. 

I design hospital mech systems and know plumbing well.  If questions, pm me. 

Good luck 

Frank

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  • Rolanda Eldridge
    Investor/Realtor · Hoover, AL · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 459 votes
    9y

    @Brie Schmidt...Sounds like a  Main line problem.  The last time I had this problem, my plumber used a borrowed camera.(equipment expensive and not all journeyman purchase)  There was a collapsed line of about 2 ft(slab house)...So it was a fairly easy fix, after founding the main problem...The camera painted the entire picture..Best trouble shooter...GL

    1Reply
  • Rolanda Eldridge
    Investor/Realtor · Hoover, AL · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 459 votes
    9y

    @Brie Schmidt...finding...and problem in the yard...dug it up and replaced a big portion of that with Pex pipe...

    0Reply
  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    @Rolanda Eldridge - we already rodded the main and because the other two tenants don't have the problem they said it wasn't the main

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  • Rolanda Eldridge
    Investor/Realtor · Hoover, AL · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 459 votes
    9y

    @Brie Schmidt...lol....maybe in the wall..when it's backing up in the tub, there is a blockage somewhere...The camera is worth the extra cost when it's not obvious...what about the pressure?

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  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    Yea, I will have to ask about a camera.  They didn't do that the first two times.  

    Water pressure is fine @Rolanda Eldridge

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 736 posts · 582 votes
    9y

    @Brie Schmidt can your plumber scope it?  Here in Denver, we have a company advertising a "roto rooter" type service with free scoping for $75 (if I remember right - I saw the commercial last night).  If they can scope it, they should be able to see the problem.

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  • Ravi P.
    Investor · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 219 posts · 104 votes
    9y

    Based on your description of the problem, the bolckage seems to be isolated to the 3rd floor drains after the tub and toilet drain and before the main drain. 

    I had a similar experiance in a commercial property (53 units) I onced managed. The property was built in the 1950's and had cast iron pipes. A tenant would flush the disposable waste wipes(similar to baby wipes), which would get caught on the rust that built up in the cast iron drain. Eventually, they accumulated to the point were it led to a blockage similar to your property. All the toilets before the blocked toilet drain would back up. But the toilets and tubs after the blockage had no problem. 

    We first tried to rod the toilet with an auger with ni luck. We ended up having the plumbing service come out and hydrojet the main lines and the guest room lines. The hydro jet is like a powerwasher, it would pump about 25 gallons of water a minute with a lot of pressure. It would flush out everything. We ended up finding a washcloths, socks and underwear that would be flushed out.  All the loose rust would be scraped off the drains.

    Needless to say we ended up doing this once a year as our preventitive maintenance plan. It is an expensive service starting at $700.00 for the truck mounted. Proactively jetting the lines were much cheaper than having an emergency service call and the subsequent damage that could be caused by flooding toilets. 

    This does not seem to be that big of an issue based on my experience. But your probably frustrated with everyone at this point.  It all depends on the competency and resources of the company you hire. 

    I will try and find the company I once used. 

    Best of luck




    2Reply
  • Michelle C.
    Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 21 posts · 14 votes
    9y

    I have a long clause in my lease that describes a multitude of items that are not supposed to go down the drain.  Ultimately I write that the tenant is responsible for the cost of clearing lines if it is found to be clogged by prohibited items or anything above and beyond normal usage.  While this might not prevent it from happening, it will hopefully inspire tenants to feel responsible about what they put in the drains.  

    4Reply
  • Account Closed
    Logan, UT · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 13 votes
    9y

    I got hung up on the fact that they are using paper towel as toilet paper. I understand some people forget to purchase some, or even didn't know they were out, but for one, paper towel... Oww...

    This is starting to get really expensive. Have you had issues with any of the other tenants? If not, I wouldn't worry so much on getting the line rooted, (scoped would be good so you know at least what's going on), but focus on helping the person understand their idiocy by charging them money. They want to be stupid, well, it can cost them, because it costs you.

    If I were in your situation, I would get it cleared out one more time, maybe buy the tenant a complimentary roll of toilet paper, and give them written notice via certified mail that you cannot afford to have their toilet line rooted any more due to negligence on their part. Specify what items are considered flushable (I.E. Natures business, and toilet paper, or items specifically designated as toilet flush safe).

    Hopefully these people are not on a long term lease contract. I would consider writing an addendum to the lease (with an attorney's help) specifying what items are considered "flushable", I.E. Natures business, and toilet paper. If the tenants want to sign a contract for the new period, they would need to agree to these terms, of not, they need to vacate. If they choose to stay and sign the contract, and if there are any issues, and it was determined to be preventable (papertowel, or toys, or clothes, etc), I would bill the tenant for the cost incurred for hiring a plumber, and a fee for wasting my time, due with next months rent. Again, I would check with an attorney first.

    Also check out other articles in Bigger pockets: Like THIS one.

    2Reply
  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
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    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    @Ravi P. - what you are describing is what I think the problem is.  We had it rodded last week and again yesterday.  The building was built in 1908 and I am pretty sure it is cast.  I will ask around about the hyrdo jet  

    @Michelle C and @Account Closed - the tenants are paying for all this, it is coming out of their SD.  I made sure they know to use toilet paper from now on.  

    I have been out there 5 times in a month, with two different plumbers and I am just tired of going out gain and again

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  • Gregg GannettPro Member
    Real Estate Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2013 · 47 posts · 24 votes
    9y
    Brie Schmidt pretty familiar with that Chicago vintage and concur it is likely due to antiquated cast pipe or its layout. I have seen old drum traps hidden under a vanity base, tiled over, and funky joints from past renovations causing issue even though the snake head didnt hang up at the trouble point. PM me if you need a go to guy. -G
    1Reply
  • Tyler Ansell
    Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 293 posts · 175 votes
    9y

    We have a habitual offender too, they don't seem to care. We've done it 3x in the past month and she's been notified that if it happens again she's getting billed time and service for her antics. Some people just don't get it.

    1Reply
  • James Barnhart
    Rental Property Investor · Ocala, FL · Member since 2016 · 226 posts · 140 votes
    9y

    If you know for sure that she is the problem tenant, it seems that you need to get her out.  This is just another example of why I only rent on a month to month basis.  I hope that all my good tenants stay for several years, but if ever there is a serious issue that the tenant won't correct, I give them a 30 day notice that I am terminating the rental agreement.  It works so easy.  I never have any problem finding new applicants.

    1Reply
  • Lois Ginter
    Rockford, IL · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 48 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Michelle C.:

    I have a long clause in my lease that describes a multitude of items that are not supposed to go down the drain.  Ultimately I write that the tenant is responsible for the cost of clearing lines if it is found to be clogged by prohibited items or anything above and beyond normal usage.  While this might not prevent it from happening, it will hopefully inspire tenants to feel responsible about what they put in the drains.  

     I have the same clause.  

    0Reply
  • Maggie Bee
    Mobile, AL · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    We have in our addendum to lease that tenants are responsible for all clogged drains, pipes, etc.   We also state in this addendum that "flushable" wipes are NOT flushable  ( any plumber will tell you NOT to flush them, that they are not flushable and will cause a blockage ) and that they are ONLY to flush toilet paper down the toilet and NOTHING else.      When I was a newbie, I made the mistake of paying for clogs in the sewer line .... but I learned my lesson and I will not ever again.  ( Plumbers will tell you what they found that was clogging the sewer line ... usually it is toys or wipes!   Tenants are responsible for this because they cause the problem!   Just write an addendum to your lease containing all of your house rules.   Have them read it and sign it.  I also have a notebook for each property that contains a copy of their lease and the house rules addendum.  ( This notebook stays with the property when they vacate - if it disappears, $25 is deducted from their security deposit )   This way the tenants have all of the " rules "  on hand if they have any questions.   It is like an instruction book for DUMMIES ... I list EVERYTHING  so it is clear ... it seems to help.  

    0Reply
  • Amy A.
    Portland, ME · Member since 2012 · 616 posts · 550 votes
    9y

    Although the paper towels are obviously the tenant's fault, I've had this plumbing problem when it was just toilet paper.  The toilet continually over-flowed (into the bathroom below!)  I tried everything.   It turns out that some cheap toilets are rough inside and crud builds up, sort of like hardening of the arteries, only grosser.  I changed the toilet to one that's has the entire drain enameled (Niagara) and the problem was solved!

    I've also had back-ups where there are old cast iron main lines (like the poster above) and had them all hydrojetted.  Augering was only a temporary fix.  

    By the way, don't threaten to take the plumbin bill out of their deposit or they might leave you a mess!  

    1Reply
  • Frank S.
    Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 870 posts · 345 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

    So my idiot tenants used paper towels as toilet paper for some time and clogged their 3rd floor bathroom.  The first floor and second floor tenants have not been having problems.  We had the handyman out about a month ago and he pulled out 2-3 rolls of paper towels.  Then last week the tenants complained that the toilet was not flushing and it was backing up into the bathtub.  

    I had the main rodded down all three floors and the problem was solved.  Yesterday it started happening again, you flush the toilet and the bowl fills up with water.  If you plunge it then it backs up into the bathtub.  The sewer company came out again yesterday and rodded it 75 feet and it was all clear, but then it started happening again. 

    I have been out there 5 times and have had two different sets of professionals come out.  Any advice or ideas on what the problem is? 

    There are a few issues here. When the water closet backs up at the 4" sanitary T, waste goes upstream to your tub. Do you have an old drum trap? If so, that drum trap is full of paper towels, now. Can they remove the cover? It's almost impossible. The line to the tub is a 2" cast iron or galvanized, but a good contractor could rod it through the tub overflow, even with a drum trap.

    A professional contractor should rod your tub and lavatory as well. Have them remove the toilet, clean toilet trap, and rod through the California bend down the stack. Then, they should rod your main sewer. There are different heads they can use. Always keep water running.  If your toilet is old, use this chance to get a new one. 

    Call Fettes, Lobe and Sieben on Lincoln, they are very expensive but do a good job. The president's name is Scott, say hi to him from me.

    1Reply
  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    @Frank S. - You are using words I don't understand, which is probably a good thing in this situation.  I am about to jump off a bridge, and while it is nice out this weekend the water is still very cold.

    I had a third professional out last night.  They rodded it again (third time this week from the same company, took off the toilet and did it) but their camera is too big to go down the 2 inch pipe.  

    So I talked with a guy who talked to a guy who has a fiberoptic camera.  He seemed very knowledgeable on the phone and is coming out Monday, but in the meantime it has been over a week without being able to "trust the flush" 

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  • Frank S.
    Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 870 posts · 345 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

    @Frank S. - You are using words I don't understand, which is probably a good thing in this situation.  I am about to jump off a bridge, and while it is nice out this weekend the water is still very cold.

    I had a third professional out last night.  They rodded it again (third time this week from the same company, took off the toilet and did it) but their camera is too big to go down the 2 inch pipe.  

    So I talked with a guy who talked to a guy who has a fiberoptic camera.  He seemed very knowledgeable on the phone and is coming out Monday, but in the meantime it has been over a week without being able to "trust the flush" 

     Brie, 

    I am sorry you are going through this. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. Below is more info and translation of the lingo. 

    I hope you are getting reputable contractors; handymen could be a huge waste of time troubleshooting. 

    Is this a typical Chicago bath arrangement?  If so, it should look very similar to the image below.  The stack ( main vertical pipe)  should be immediately behind the toilet and from there a branch picks up the sink and tub. 

    Toilets have a 4 inch waste in Chicago, it could be 3", but certainly not 2". Why are they videotaping a 2", it makes no sense.  The California bend is the fitting that connects the toilet. 

    Toilets have an internal trap, it may be full of paper towels. 

    They should use an auger to clean your toilet's internal trap, or replace the toilet. 

    They should use this machine, the K-400 is called, on your main sewer,  not the smaller ones.

    They should use this on your 2" lines.  Don't use the hand ones. 

    Here is a drum trap.  Note that is not a p-trap.   Sometimes they are buried or you can see a little round cover on the tile floor. They are hard to clean. 

    I design hospital mech systems and know plumbing well.  If questions, pm me. 

    Good luck 

    Frank

    6Reply
  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    @Frank S. - Thanks for the explanation!  The auger and rod are what they used, we will see what the new guy says Monday, it has to be isolated to their unit because nobody else has problems.  My PM is another state said something about the toilet vent being clogged, and I told the last guy

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  • Frank S.
    Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 870 posts · 345 votes
    9y

    Is this your top unit? If so, the vent is 4", for the stack goes through the  roof. At other levels, the 4" waste should allow sufficient air. It's highly likely not the vent, sorry. If so, you can't rod it if located at a lower floors.  At the highest level, it goes through the roof.

    Get a great knowledgeable contractor. 

    If still backing up to the tub, they, didn't do a good job rodding. If the toilet is not flushing, have them use the auger or replace.

    Best of luck,

    Frank

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  • Christopher Lombardi
    Developer · Point Pleasant Beach, NJ · Member since 2015 · 303 posts · 216 votes
    9y
    I've delt with this issue many times. It's most likely corroded cast iron line between the floors causing the paper towels to get hung up. Probably need to drop a camera down there to be sure. Also, always put in the lease what can and can't go in the toilet and if the wrong thing is flushed it's the tenants responsibility for payment. If you buy older properties and sometimes newer ones, you will run in lot this problem a lot.
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  • Aaron Frances
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 61 posts · 11 votes
    9y
    You may have two issues, 1. Toilet has too much calcification with low pressure to push waste down. I once cleaned out every port in the bowl with small screw driver and it fixed my low flush pressure issue. 2. The 2" vent riser is clogged above the drains. Heck I'd check the 4" too. You never know if a bird died in it. I had a similar issue at an apartment I rented. Toilet wasn't the big issue but the 2" line from sink to the tub would go down super slow and clog very easily. We rodded it, poured cleaner to no avail. We found our issue to be a venting issue on the 2" riser that goes out to roof. It was completely clogged with rust and debris well above the drain lines. While your plumber is there have them rod out the 2" vent from roof if they have access. If not they can try to access the 2" line internally and drill 1/2" to 3/4" hole in it so they can stick their rodder through. To avoid climbing the roof we used the access panel to a crawl space since it was an attic in law apt and we drilled the hole as high up on the 2" left be as possible to ensure we'd get the clog. We heard crunching and rock noises and then the tub and sink drained like normal. I manage the maintenance of a 24 unit condo building in Chicago that has clear evidence that they will soon have to get all of their 2" vents cleaned out. My LED flashlight can see far down into a few and the rest get smaller from what looks like rust and some look down right clogged 5-10 feet down. Please be sure to update us on the solution. Good Luck!
    1Reply
  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    9y

    @Frank S. - yea, it is the top floor.  I had a guy come out yesterday, he said the other guys did not rod it good enough.   We took the camera down 30+ feet and saw no problems so I think we are all good

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  • Frank S.
    Specialist · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 870 posts · 345 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:

    @Frank S. - yea, it is the top floor.  I had a guy come out yesterday, he said the other guys did not rod it good enough.   We took the camera down 30+ feet and saw no problems so I think we are all good

    Congrats!

    Now, how would you address this with a tenant?  Let's say my tenants drop a teddy bear down the toilet.  Do I need a special line on my lease to bill them for this, or do you think is not worth the hassle? 

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