Finishing Basement - Considerations - Addtl unit or Duplex?

Finishing Basement - Considerations - Addtl unit or Duplex?

Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 5 votes

Hello all, 

Longtime reader, first-time poster.

We have a classic Chicago 2-flat in Bucktown. We live on the first floor and rent the 2nd. 

  • Both units are 2bd, 1bath, ~1100 sq. ft. 
  • R4 zoning
  • Basement is about ~1050 sq. ft.

Anyway, we're considering finishing the basement into a nice, but modest 2bd, 1 bath. There is also already an interior entry into the basement from the 1st floor. 

The immediate goal in finishing the basement is to make more space for our family of four. The youngest is 1, and we see a need for more space ASAP.  We like living in this neighborhood and plan on staying for at least another 5 years. 

The secondary goal is to increase rental income down the road. Based on our preliminary plans we should be able to relatively easily convert the basement into a 3rd unit or just rent the 1st floor as a duplex down 4bd. The construction differences to convert it into a separate unit (vs leaving it as a duplex down) would be beefing up a planned kitchenette and also building a wall to separate the basement, while giving it and the 1st floor access to shared laundry room.

To do this, we need to cash out refinance, (something we have to do soon anyway as we are on a 5 year balloon). This would raise our mortgage by ~ $700/month, which is a lot, but still makes our total mortgage payment well below rental on a 4bd, 2 bath.

So, my question for the great minds of BP is, is this a good idea? Anything I'm missing or should be considering?Thoughts on the duplex or separate unit idea?

"Go for it?" or "It's a terrible idea because the economy is going to come crashing down any minute!" And any opinions in-between. 

Very many thanks in advance. 

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Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Ian Kibbe:

@Jeff Burdick - Ceiling height is  7' 6" -ish for most of it. We're probably going to dig down a few inches to get the slab level, put in floor heating, and buy ourselves a little more head room. 

@Aaron Frances - Wow, congrats!  I think that's about the scope of work we're looking at, minus the zoning changes. We have a great GC whom we're meeting with soon, so really appreciate that perspective, as I'd been considering doing it myself. I handled our rental unit renovations, but they weren't huge and this seems an order of magnitude greater.  Glad to hear you're near the other side!  

 Estimate $30k to dig if you do not need to underpin the footings.  $50k if you need to underpin the footings.  You will never get that back in terms of additional cash flow

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  • Real Estate Broker · 3412 S. Harlem Avenue Riverside, IL 60546 · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    @Ian Kibbe the city zoning will determine if you can add a third unit. You should connect with @Brie Schmidt as she knows and understands the Chicago zoning laws, but my gut instinct would be that you would be better served looking into a duplex down scenario. You should think through how much this will cost with architectural drawings, a good GC, etc. You should also figure out how much additional rent you can get for the space. 

    I recently had a client purchase a duplex in Forest Park here in the western suburbs with this exact plan in mind. There is a lot of research to be done to make sure it is feasible before you start the project. 

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    @Ian Kibbe - You probably need a zoning attorney.  @Bob Floss II should be able to help.

    Here are the codes

    https://secondcityzoning.org/zones/

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y
    You will need to check with the city/building inspector to determine your options first. I personally would only reno to add additional living space and leave the rest as is. You can convert to a third rental down the road if that day ever comes. For now I would not waste the money if you are not renting it out. That day may never come.
  • Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    Sorry, I misspoke (mistyped?). It's RT4 zoned, not R4, and we've been cleared for an additional unit. It also has enough sq. ft. to accommodate the additional unit without having to consider it an efficiency unit.

    But also agree, we'll just start simple with adding more living space / the duplex down, and keep things flexible for the future.  

    Thank you all! 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 515 posts · 247 votes
    7y

    What is the ceiling height?  

    Adding an additional unit is generally best from an investment standpoint, but it sounds like your personal life situation indicates that duplexing down is the best option...especially if plan to live there long term.  

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 61 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    I did just this in my two flat, it cost me around $150k to rezone, dig down, upgrade everything plus fee after fee after fee and materials after materials. I regret not hiring a GC as I acted as my own. I feel like a GC would have been able to get me better deals with contractors while taking away the headache of not having to babysit contractors through this 1.5 year ordeal. Hey @Jeff Burdick. I"m finally done buddy. Lets catch up soon. @Brie Schmidt I came on to pick your brain. This is my first and last GC job and I'm stuck on one thing. Occupancy permit. I converted my RS3 zoning to a RT3.5 and converted my basement duplex into a separte legal apartment. i went from 2 legal units to 3. I've gotten all my final inspections requested however my realtor said I may need an occupancy permit. Know anything about that? 

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 515 posts · 247 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Aaron Frances:

    I did just this in my two flat, it cost me around $150k to rezone, dig down, upgrade everything plus fee after fee after fee and materials after materials. I regret not hiring a GC as I acted as my own. I feel like a GC would have been able to get me better deals with contractors while taking away the headache of not having to babysit contractors through this 1.5 year ordeal. Hey @Jeff Burdick. I"m finally done buddy. Lets catch up soon. @Brie Schmidt I came on to pick your brain. This is my first and last GC job and I'm stuck on one thing. Occupancy permit. I converted my RS3 zoning to a RT3.5 and converted my basement duplex into a separte legal apartment. i went from 2 legal units to 3. I've gotten all my final inspections requested however my realtor said I may need an occupancy permit. Know anything about that? 

     Absolutely!  Lets catch up soon!  Congrats on getting your project done.  Sounds intense.  I'd love to hear more details.  

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y
  • Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    @Jeff Burdick - Ceiling height is  7' 6" -ish for most of it. We're probably going to dig down a few inches to get the slab level, put in floor heating, and buy ourselves a little more head room. 

    @Aaron Frances - Wow, congrats!  I think that's about the scope of work we're looking at, minus the zoning changes. We have a great GC whom we're meeting with soon, so really appreciate that perspective, as I'd been considering doing it myself. I handled our rental unit renovations, but they weren't huge and this seems an order of magnitude greater.  Glad to hear you're near the other side!  

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 515 posts · 247 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ian Kibbe:

    @Jeff Burdick - Ceiling height is  7' 6" -ish for most of it. We're probably going to dig down a few inches to get the slab level, put in floor heating, and buy ourselves a little more head room. 

    @Aaron Frances - Wow, congrats!  I think that's about the scope of work we're looking at, minus the zoning changes. We have a great GC whom we're meeting with soon, so really appreciate that perspective, as I'd been considering doing it myself. I handled our rental unit renovations, but they weren't huge and this seems an order of magnitude greater.  Glad to hear you're near the other side!  

     Digging down is extremely pricey.  I'd talk to your contractor about using sub floor to level the floor.  

  • Attorney · Northbrook, IL · Member since 2017 · 719 posts · 549 votes
    7y

    Thanks for the mention @Brie Schmidt. You received some good guidance here from other investors on the costs involved to legalize a basement unit. Most never get past the estimate from the architect. Even duplexing down the first floor unit can be pricey as it involves making structural changes. If you are prepared for the costs involved and the modifications needed to the property to make the basement unit conform, the pay off of creating an extra rent producing unit is huge. 

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ian Kibbe:

    @Jeff Burdick - Ceiling height is  7' 6" -ish for most of it. We're probably going to dig down a few inches to get the slab level, put in floor heating, and buy ourselves a little more head room. 

    @Aaron Frances - Wow, congrats!  I think that's about the scope of work we're looking at, minus the zoning changes. We have a great GC whom we're meeting with soon, so really appreciate that perspective, as I'd been considering doing it myself. I handled our rental unit renovations, but they weren't huge and this seems an order of magnitude greater.  Glad to hear you're near the other side!  

     Estimate $30k to dig if you do not need to underpin the footings.  $50k if you need to underpin the footings.  You will never get that back in terms of additional cash flow

  • Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 68 posts · 48 votes
    7y

    @Aaron Frances you do not need an occupancy permit in the City of Chicago for any building 4 units and under. So for a 2-flat (even if it is now 3 units) you do NOT need to get one! If you have all your final inspections you are good to go.

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 318 posts · 307 votes
    7y

    @Ann Folan @Brie Schmidt @Bob Floss II

    Great thread, @Ian Kibbe.

     thanks for adding value everyone.  In this situation now. We have the budget and we don’t have to dig. Budget $300k I want to add a garden unit in a 2-flat. Zoned RT4 now. Ceiling is 8ft already. 

    Can you help me understand what’s the first, second, third step to get this done? Reading the county website is like reading a new language. Do I need a zoning attorney or can I apply myself?

    Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks

  • Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    @Brie Schmidt - Yes, the digging is one of the biggest questions we have for our GC. I think the height requirements in Chicago are 7'6" and we're right on the edge of that. 

    @Ibn Abney - sounds like you have a lot of things going in your direction thus far! Hope you can get the answers you need. 

    To that end, I'll update this thread as we move forward with our plans.

    Thanks all!

  • Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 68 posts · 48 votes
    7y

    @Ibn Abney we are looking at a similar project right now (also zoned RT4). Our first step has been to get an architect that is familiar with zoning, he is drawing up plans to submit to the city and add the garden unit. Any architect familiar with zoning in the City should be able to guide you in the right direction. With 8' ceilings you should not have to dig out the basement, and with an RT4 zoning, provide all other issues (egress, etc.) are met, you should not get much (if any) resistance to adding that unit. Per our zoning attorney "all that matters is your rights and limitations under the current zoning". A quick call to your zoning attorney or architect should confirm that adding that garden unit is possible without needing any changes, exceptions, etc. under the current zoning. Then get your plans drawn up and submitted.

    @Ian Kibbe digging down the basement is pretty pricey and it depends on the existing footing and the state of the existing foundation. Your best bet at this point may be to dig some test holes in the basement and see where the footings are. It is my understanding (per our zoning attorney) that RT4 zoning should allow 3 units but whether the current construction of the building makes that viable or not is an issue.

    Not an expert by any means - just our experience with zoning and digging out basements in Chicago. If you follow us on Instagram (follynbuilders) I have a series of videos in the last month illustrating digging out a 100+ year old basement in Lincoln Park. It is a huge undertaking and might shed some light on what is involved.

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 61 posts · 11 votes
    6y

    @Ibn Abney 

    @Ian Kibbe

    Did your projects ever take off? I'd love to hear how they went if they did. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 318 posts · 307 votes
    6y

    @Aaron Frances yep got it done. About to drywall now. Basement was actually  7.6ft so we had to dig. Legal height 8ft.

    Had to add public access to electric disconnects as well.made me add two window in the basement too.

    Really just need to get an architect who is self certified. After few hundred dollars in permits and drawings, submitted to the city, got  approval to move forward in a week :-). 

    Pictures:

    hope that helps! Good luck

  • Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    Wow @Ibn Abney congrats! 

    We had to hold off for a bit, but are getting ready to start in the coming months. We'll update here as we go!

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 318 posts · 307 votes
    5y

    @Ian Kibbe @Aaron Frances


    just sold.. final photo of garden unit addition 

  • Member since 2020 · 5 posts · 3 votes
    5y

    The pictures look great!  Thanks for the update Ibn.

  • Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    5y

    Ha, great timing @Ibn Avery.

    We literally just dug out the basement today. Yes, it’s all moving much slower than we thought but it’s moving along, so we can’t complain too much. The digging out has priced out much lower than we thought initially, so we’re using the additional money for an overhead sewer (the only flooding we’ve had in the 13 years we’ve lived here has been sewer back up).

    @Ibn Abney, that looks great! Congratulations!

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 318 posts · 307 votes
    5y

    @Ian Kibbe nice! All down hill from here! Definitely install backup flaps and valves for all floor drains and the main line. Best way to prevent flooding. Sump pump is ideal as well!!

    I found humidity to be an issue in the garden so a humidifier as well!


    good luck! 

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2016 · 61 posts · 11 votes
    5y

    @Ian Kibbe hi Ian, let's connect. I'd love to follow your progress to see how you do yours.

  • Member since 2019 · 8 posts · 5 votes
    5y

    Hey @Aaron Frances, you bet! I'll send you a dm and we can talk. 

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