The Government Nationalized My Rental Portfolio

Rich Lennon · 2020-05-26T11:39:07-07:00

I am still at a loss to understand how the government has gotten away with Nationalizing my SFH rental portfolio in the blink of an eye. When Donald Trump announced that there would be no evictions on any federally backed loans, he essentially took my assets. Yes, only a third of the mortgages are federally backed, but it empowered local government to follow suit. All local governments in Richmond Va will not take eviction cases. By virtue of doing nothing I cannot remove a tenant from my property. As a landlord I have no recourse. Effectively seeding the asset to the Federal Government. Now I want to make something REALLY clear. If you throw out a tenant during a pandemic because they lost their jobs, you are not a good person. Landlords have a responsibility to be good citizens. They are business people and had better have planned for tough times. I have a large portfolio and my collections are at 96%. Why? Because we communicate with the tenants, and generally speaking ,most people want to do the right thing on their own. They don't need the government to regulate it for them. Tip: We bought six rolls of toilet paper for each of our tenants and delivered it to their homes in a gift bag with the hand written message "We are all in this together, if there is anything we can do to help let us know". We had an AMAZING response!! People before profit!! What if I want to sell my asset though? What if I believe that the real estate market today is the highest it will be for 8 years? What if my kids need to go to college during those years? Or I want to retire and cash out? I cannot remove any of the tenants as there leases expire for what will likely be 6-9 months. In that time the world will have changed. No one can be certain what the world will look like at that time, although my guess is not better. The government stepped in VERY QUICKLY and took control over millions of dollars of assets that I am still responsible for. If in times of crisis the government is willing to take this asset class under it's own control, that risk has to be accounted for moving forward in this industry. Why work ten years to build a portfolio if it won't be there for you when you need it the most? I fear this impulsive political decision will have a long lasting impact on the landlord industry. The cycle I built my portfolio during (post 2008) the old grey hairs urged young investors to watch out for the banks. Be weary of debt (good advice). The next cycle, old grey hairs such as myself, will warn young investors that rentals have a new risk previously unimagined. The government can Nationalize your portfolio over night, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Anthony Jasmine

Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 24 votes

6y

Originally posted by @Joe P.:

Originally posted by @Anthony Jasmine:

@Rich Lennon

I tend to avoid political discussions when trying to network, but what the government is doing is wrong. They tell tenants that they don’t have to pay, and give landlords no bailout. It’s terrible that families can’t afford their rent and basic necessities, but it’s not right for them to destroy everything you’ve worked for.

You created assets and established wealth. They didn’t. You did what most people aren’t willing to do. You’re financially intelligent, and they weren’t. You don’t owe it them by obligation to drain all of your assets to help them out.

People might tell me I’m selfish, but my argument stems on free will. I have a whole sub savings account titled “Giving” with capital one. My fiancé and I both fund this account $400 together every month. This is to help friends and family out. Maybe it’s a meal we pay for, a birthday, a holiday... but if someone comes in and takes that money from my account forcefully and allocate it the way they personally see fit- well that’s when I have an issue.

If the government is bailing out tenants, then she should bail out land lords. Your assets shouldn’t be destroyed because somebody wasn’t as financially sound as you. You don’t owe it to them. If you want to help, then it should be free will.

I empathize and hope everything works out for you.

Hi Anthony...first, you say what the government is doing is "wrong" -- what's wrong about it? The government has a requirement to keep the masses safe. What will keep the masses safe? Making sure thousands of people do not become instantly homeless, and the associated socioeconomic fallout of such. Mind you, its only temporary. The government knows that real estate investors are a piece of the puzzle, just like everyone else. That's why they've established an EIDL loan, and there are also SBA loans available for those that qualify. If your tenants cannot pay rent because of the coronavirus, and you want to evict, and there were no restrictions/courts were running -- what do you think would happen in court? Even the most landlord-friendly judge is likely to invoke extenuating circumstances given the pandemic, and at the very least, require a plan in place to make you whole while not significantly hindering someone that lost their income source and putting them out on the street.

Some tenants will take advantage of this, as is human nature. But it's no different than landlords trying to do the same. That's the same story from both sides, day-after-day. Human nature applies to us all, and some humans deal with nature differently.

"You created assets and established wealth" -- ok, perhaps. But chances are your wealth was established with government backed loans that you appreciated at the time, and when the government tries to back another citizen (that may directly or indirectly affect you), all of the sudden, its overreach, its subsidizing, it's infringing upon your so-called rights, et al...well that's just a bunch of nonsense. Some folks may not be as "financially savvy" as investors, but is that a reason to PENALIZE them in a situation that is completely beyond their control? Do they not pay their taxes just like you and I, sometimes to a higher percentage BECAUSE they are not financially savvy?

No one asked you or required you to drain your assets. A lot of folks, thanks to technology, have been able to keep their jobs and work remotely, or are essential and need to work and are being paid as such. And in cases where you have good tenants who fell on unexpected and really, unprecedented being the key word, hard times...I hope you're working with them.

The ONLY thing gub'ment has done is say we're going to put a moratorium on evictions. Landlords -- here's your recourse, either/or EIDL or SBA loans (a lot of them are just grants...free f'n money...you can use since you're so "financially savvy" as to overlook them). It's really amazing how all these brilliant people at the first sign of trouble have wallowed in their tears on situations that haven't even come up yet AND, if they did, have recourse (thanks to the same government trying to watch all citizens) to mitigate the financial constraints we are all under.

So, Anthony, check your facts. Yes, the government is telling people they can't be put out on their arse in a really difficult time. But they're also offering you, the investor, multiple avenues to mitigate the costs of such. And that's not even scratching the surface of how you can interact with your lenders to find out the deferral plans which no doubt exist, while you draw upon your reserves (financially savvy, remember?) to cover yourself in this financially and socially difficult time.

For a country that spends a lot of time telling people to "pick themselves up by the bootstraps" -- it seems like a lot of folks I considered to be "financially savvy" are now suffocating themselves with the same ones. Business is RISK. Maybe we don't anticipate this kind of risk, but we're ALL HERE. Figure it out, do you research (literally took me 10 seconds to google "landlord loans for coronavirus") and find out about how in the CARES act, the same government you think is overreaching took the time to consider your needs an investor, but you're too busy on some straw pedestal to even bother to LOOK. Unreal.

I'm now sitting at a desktop, so I'm going to give a more in depth response. Listen, I started researching this asset class maybe a couple of months ago. Up until then, I've been trading stocks and have made pretty decent money doing it. My expertise do not align within this business, and I'm here to simply learn. Having said that, I do not personally render my opinion null because of my inexperience. What I've read and heard from other users is contradicting to what you're stating. Common sense tells me that if this post is this active, and the original poster hasn't figured it out, then there still must be an issue at hand here. If it were that easy, then there wouldn't be an issue, hence this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Upon reading as you've suggested (SBA Loans), it seems as if you must match a particular criteria as you do with any loan. My first thought that comes to mind is a landlords credit being tarnished due to missed-payments of his tenants. Now the landlords credit is shot, and his cash flow is far from what would be considered consistent. Even with this loan, how long will this take you to repay it considering that tenants have so much leniency right now? I also read that these SBA loans are limited and awarded on a first come first serve basis. Now if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. I actually encourage this as I genuinely want to learn more.

I'm now going to directly respond to some of the things you've stated.

"Hi Anthony...first, you say what the government is doing is "wrong" -- what's wrong about it?" - The government tarnishing a business owners ability to survive and produce cash flow so that they can forcefully give others free rent is wrong. Landlords planned for a rainy day, but they didn't plan for the federal government to come in and tell them that their business is now a charity whether they like it or not. While tenants didn't plan for this either, capitalism operates in a way that rewards the strong, and unfortunately.... the weak fall out. While it's a harsh world out there, this is why I'm so proud to be an American. We create our own faith and placement in life. If I want to live rich and lavish with my future wife, then I absolutely can if I work hard and smart. If I don't, well I'll have to suffer the consequences of that. I don't condone my belief system towards this Marxist driven agenda that punishes the wealthy and rewards the underachievers. Equality and equal opportunity should be handed to every American. Not solely the rich, poor, or middle class. The Marxist robin-hood theory of taking from the rich, and giving to the poor isn't my cup of tea.

It seems as if the government is interfering with the natural order of things, and as a result, our market (according to my GDP calculations), is about 140% inflated and overvalued. The government stimulus is literally destroying our economy, and there will be negative ramifications to it. There is a reason as to why Warren Buffet is sitting on a cash pile of over $100 billion right now. Logic, and numbers tell us that what the government is doing clearly isn't working very well.

I think that there's an issue when the federal reserve is printing trillions of dollars, and handing it out like candy. I think there's an issue when the government took millions to pay for lobbyist in an attempt to advance the careers of political leaders during this pandemic. I think there's an issue when we take 25 million dollars to fund the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts during this pandemic. I think there's an issue when the government is handing over millions to the media. I think there's an issue when the government can no longer pay out pensions. I think there's a problem when my fathers retirement is now going to be shot due to hyper-inflation tagged along with millions of other Americans. Imagine working your entire life, looking forward to a retirement, and then being told at the age of 60 that you no longer get it. Finally, I think there's a huge issue at hand when you have people like the original poster having their life work deteriorate in front of them due to other people's inability to be financially prepared. The government now has to sit there and say "Nope, you now give free rent. Apply for this loan that you might get, and figure it out on your own. You don't see anything wrong with that? Isn't that socialism?

Don't you think that the government could have possibly maybe just interfered a little less, and maybe things might be a little better? Maybe we as Americans should allow the people to govern themselves a little as our founding fathers fought for that right? Maybe they could have taken that money and given money for tenants to pay their rent? No, the government actually says that as a landlord, you can't even suggest they pay for their rent using their stimulus check? Do you really think that these people aren't milking the system? Cmon man. Use your head.

___

"A lot of folks, thanks to technology, have been able to keep their jobs and work remotely, or are essential and need to work and are being paid as such." - Tell that to the landlords in the mid west who's asset is almost solely dependent off of cash flow where the market is predominately based on labor.

___

"Business is RISK." - Absolutely it is a risk. Having said that, landlords started their business with the assumption that the government wouldn't indoctrinate socialist driven policies. They started this off the assumption that we are a free country, and the government wouldn't tell them that their business is now a non-profit homeless shelter for the time being. You now have to go down because of everyone else's financial ineptitude. They couldn't figure it out, so now you must drown with them. Screw your family, screw the sacrifice you made, screw everything. You owe it to them because big government now says so. No, I completely disagree. Business is business, and at the end of the day, everyone needs to make money. If I had rental properties, I'd help as much as I possibly could. I genuinely mean that. If you can help others in this situation, but choose not to, you're selfish in my opinion. But again, I'm not lighting me and family on fire to keep others warm. What's next, do all food vendors start giving every American free food by force? At what point does your consistency stray in another direction?
___

"Some folks may not be as "financially savvy" as investors, but is that a reason to PENALIZE them in a situation that is completely beyond their control?" - They are penalized by society for not making financially intelligent decisions even despite this pandemic. That's how capitalism should work. It sounds harsh, but that's simply how it works.

___

With all due respect, I'm going to suggest that you look at these issues with a broader mindset past the fixated minutiae instead of starting debates so emotionally charged with contempt for anyone else who opposes your belief system. In all, I'm not here to attack you. We're all going through a lot. My 33 year old cousin just lost his life 3 weeks ago, and we think it's because of covid. Everyone's struggling, and it's okay that we oppose views on the correct course of action. We all have different route in which we believe will work, but our end goal is the all the same. We all just want for this to end, and for everyone to be okay. For anyone who actually read all of this, stay safe out there. This will pass soon enough.

3 Reply

Anthony Jasmine

Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 24 votes

6y

Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:

Originally posted by @John Clark:

1. Nobody "nationalized" anything.

2. The federal government didn't "empower" local governments to do anything. States have always had control over health, safety, and welfare.

3. The idea that you "created" assets and the government didn't is wrong. Don't believe me? Construct a building and see how far you get without the ability to have police or fire protection, the ability to enforce contracts (including suing for back rent when this is all over), building codes, and a generally educated workforce. Not to mention roads, water and sewer connections, working telephone, radio and television systems not blocked by spectrum interference, etc.

Not to mention the subsidies provided for car transportation, etc.

Get a grip and grow up.

John,

Respectfully, your post is utter nonsense. But like a former ex President said "you didn't build it". Except he was dead wrong because I did.

Sure there is infrastructure. But guess what? That infrastructure was bought and paid for by the folks who "built it" as well. Pretty sure at least some part of my 300k in my yearly income and property taxes went to something worthwhile, like infrastructure.

This reminds me of when Obama made this speech.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GjqdP6KSOE

2 Reply

Michael King

Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes

6y

Just hold on a minute until I come back with snacks. This is good.

1 Reply

John Clark

Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

"It seems as if the government is interfering with the natural order of things, "

------------------------------

Pandemic is the natural order of things?

0 Reply

John Clark

Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

"Don't you think that the government could have possibly maybe just interfered a little less, and maybe things might be a little better? "
-----------------------------
Could have? Sure. Did it make a passable fist of the job under the circumstances? Yes. Don't let great be the enemy of good. work towards improvement, not perfection. We'll be perfect when we're dead.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Maybe we as Americans should allow the people to govern themselves a little as our founding fathers fought for that right? "
--------------------------------------
Are you telling us that the colored need to go to the back of the bus?

0 Reply

Anthony Jasmine

Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 24 votes

6y

@John Clark

How we respond to this pandemic is what I’m referring to when I say natural. Society has faced tough situations throughout all of human history. An artificially propped up economy that will inevitably collapse is not the solution. I don’t agree with how the government is handling things from an economic standpoint. Socialism is not the solution. Collapsing someone’s entire business that they’ve their entire life for by being forced to provide free rent is not the solution.

To your other response about your Rosa Parks rhetoric. No, that’s not what I mean. I think that we mutually and rationally understand that there’s a middle ground between socialism and institutional racism.

1 Reply

Brian Ploszay

Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

The comment was a little dramatic. Good governance knows that denying landlords the right to conduct their business (without some kind of compesation) will quickly erode the housing stock. Lanlords will be foreclosed on. And foreclosures often blight neighborhoods. And not being able to collect money will mean less investment into the property. If the government protects defaulters, a side effect is that low income housing will be devastated. Landlords would rather leave their units vacant.

I strongly believe that evicting people at the height of the pandemic was health concern. Further, courts were shut down, another health concern. We all have taken losses from this pandemic. Hopefully we all have manageable defaults. On the bright side, I have almost no moves these days - turnovers cost me time and money.

I may end up only with one Covid eviction. I'd have cut him a break if he would communicate with me. My attorney says that the courts will be very backed up when opened, and expect a long time to get him out.

1 Reply

John Clark

Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

"Anthony Jasmine

"How we respond to this pandemic is what I’m referring to when I say natural. Society has faced tough situations throughout all of human history. An artificially propped up economy that will inevitably collapse is not the solution."
======================================
It created a new solution when everything shook out. Thus we will create a new solution without the hystrionics of ersatz historians. After all, the black death ended feudalism. Can't we agree that covid-19 will require governments to pay rents for those who dont? With appropriate penallties?

To your other response about your Rosa Parks rhetoric. No, that’s not what I mean. I think that we mutually and rationally understand that there’s a middle ground between socialism and institutional racism.

"I think that we mutually and rationally understand that there’s a middle ground between socialism and institutional racism. "

__________________

No dice Anthony, but you are completely and totally ignorant of the approach the South took to Slavery. Don't even try to defend your ignorance. THEY WERE TALKING PROPERTY!! AND RIGHTS1111

The merest internet search will show your folly.

That leaves aside the assumption you cook up about socialism. Do you stand for the proposition that renters are racists? Or victims of racism? Or that rational responses to pandemics are racism?

"Nuff said.

0 Reply

Anthony Jasmine

Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 24 votes

6y

@John Clark

How did you manage to make this a race issue? This has absolutely nothing to do with blacks or whites. Honestly this has become so far fetched. The point in which I’m trying to make is that I believe there’s a middle ground between socialism and advocating Jim Crow.

0 Reply

Anna Laud

Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2020 · 234 posts · 194 votes

6y

Yes there's no doubt that some of our rights are infringed upon, but honestly after the Snowden revelations "we" (as Americans) basically shrugged away right to privacy, warrantless wire tapping and even killing, etc.

Then we have the subhumans who get their AR-15s, Nazi flags and Confederate flags to go threaten health workers and local politicians because... America. So do we really deserve any better?

There is a 9/11 of Americans dying every day, suffocating and not allowed to see their loved ones so they are surrounded by strangers as they take their last painful breaths.

Be Grateful! = )

2 Reply

Nicholas Mann

Valhalla, NY · Member since 2013 · 132 posts · 84 votes

6y

@Rich Lennon

As Warren Buffett put it “we all won the ovarian lottery”. Buffett at almost 90 years of age being one of the richest men in the world stated in his free to public Berkshire Hathaway Press Conference that a baby being born in the United States in 2020 is better off than anyone being born anywhere in the world at any point in time. Adding to that any of us fortunate to be on a Real Estate/Networking/Wealth Building/Forum/Social Media platform to vent about our current setbacks and downfalls during a Global Pandemic should be thankful that we are still here to “vent” about such issues. I think this website and content is amazing to provide for anyone just getting started in wealth building specificially geared towards real estate free information and knowledge. Look everyone across the entire world is affected by what happened the past few months. We will all overcome it and adapt to whatever the future has in store for us. Anyone still able to scroll on there computer or cell phone to read through these posts should consider themselves beyond lucky. God bless all of you and keep fighting wether it be Emotionally, Physically or financially!

3 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes

6y

Ok, while I don't agree with eviction moratorium for no reason and I think that unemployment support should come with direct rent payments I think its a bit hypocritical to take all the benefits that the government gives rental owners but complain about this as nationalizing your assets. The fact that the government through Fannie Mae guarantees your loans is what allows low mortgage rates. The fact that the fed gives almost free money to banks allows them to make 30 year loans at under 4%. The fact that we get to depreciate what is really an appreciating asset is a tax break. The fact that public courts and sheriff offices are used to protect our profits is a government benefit. Im sure there are more. None of this would exist in your ideal lassie faire capitalist ideal. Lets face it. Housing is not by any means a true free market at all. And hence subject to government regulation.

1 Reply

Andrey Y.

Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Clark:

"It seems as if the government is interfering with the natural order of things, "

------------------------------

Pandemic is the natural order of things?

Yes. Multi-country epidemics and pandemics occur about once every 2-3 years. Its nothing new.

This one isn't nearly as "bad" as the news told you it is. The reaction and legislation (and their attempt to force people to do things not based on any science or even a rational explanation) enacted on its behalf are 5 times worse.

If you are under the age of 60 and healthy, you're chance of dying from Covid-19 if you catch it, is exactly 0.002% (Infection fatality rate). Across all ages/overall, its 0.2-0.3%. Influenza is 0.1%.

Why are healthy people being told they can't go to the gym? Why are people being forced to wear masks which without question will WEAKEN your immune system and WORSEN your breathing/respiratory status?

Zero brain was used when they thought of these policies. 30 and 40 year olds (and infants!) die from the Flu every day, but not Covid-19. I have seen this in my 13 years practicing medicine.

Moral of the story, protect the vulnerable. Don't make everyone suffer. And don't use "models" based on bogus inputs.

The economy didn't need to be purposely destroyed (now the World Economy). This was absolutely the most idiotic policy decision in America in my lifetime.

And yes, I offered my tenants discounted rent from March on. And I was criticized on this forum that it was a bad business move in doing so. I actually believed that this would be something with a 1-2% fatality rate as those sleazy politicians and so called experts told me.. they were off by a full order of magnitude.

3 Reply

John Clark

Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

"How did you manage to make this a race issue? This has absolutely nothing to do with blacks or whites. Honestly this has become so far fetched. The point in which I’m trying to make is that I believe there’s a middle ground between socialism and advocating Jim Crow."
---------------------------
Hold on there, Sport. YOU are the one who brought up freedoms and liberty as our "founding fathers" knew it. They knew slavery and supported it. The point is that you take the good with the bad. So you get to wax rapsodic about our founding fathers defending property, you have to accept the fact that slaves were property. Guess what? Our founding fathers were not perfect and did not create a perfect system.

So now the state has temporarily stripped you of the ability to evict tenants. How is that "socialism" by any rational definition of the word? You'll be able to go after your tenants for back rent, and evict them, within a reasonable defined length of time -- the end of the pandemic. That's not "socialism." It's not expropriation. It's state's exercising their inherent powers in the way they have exercised those powers for centuries (yes, even before, during, and after, our founding fathers).

Here's a suggestion: Stop your idiotic attempts at wrapping yourself in the flag.

1 Reply

John Clark

Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Andrey Y

"If you are under the age of 60 and healthy, you're chance of dying from Covid-19 if you catch it, is exactly 0.002% (Infection fatality rate). Across all ages/overall, its 0.2-0.3%. Influenza is 0.1%."

-----------------------------------

Lethality rates are meaningless without infection rates. Why do you omit infection rates in your comparison of Covid-19 and seasonal influenza?

0 Reply

Mark Sewell

Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes

6y

I do agree that is wrong for ME to set policy for something YOU own. We don't do that with other social programs, like food stamps. Do people just walk into the grocery store and pick what they need and walk out without paying? Just because the federal/local government has decided that, for now, people just need to eat? No, they send the people a stimulus check so they can pay for their basic needs... like food & housing. Or they come up with some other mechanism. I have heard no reports of any temporary ban on prosecuting shoplifters.

I see this as an unintended consequence, and hopefully a temporary one. I mean, it is hard to get a judgment when the courts are closed.

Texas has lifted the temporary ban on evictions. Now that doesn't mean courts are functioning as normal, and that there is no backlog, but at least the intervention at the state level here is behind us.

1 Reply

Mike LambertPro Member

Investor · The Americas and Europe · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

@Cory Macculloch

I agree with you that this isn't real nationalization.

For your information though, Chile, Colombia and Venezuela haven't had a revolution and neither of those countries, nor Mexico have nationalized properties, especially not in the recent past. Only the communist and the former communist countries have and that only includes Cuba in the list you mentioned, not even Venezuela.

0 Reply

Salman V.

Developer · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 36 posts · 20 votes

6y

How does anyone on this forum thinking the moratoriums are ok? I don't think I can ever vote for a anyone who would support this type of action ever again.

I'm happy with the federal government giving help to tenants in paying their rents. Rent vouchers are a great idea too. But a blanket ban on evictions is ludicrous and only rewards the worst types of people who take advantage of bad situations. The Heros act would ban all evictions for a year. This will effectively wipe out a big chunk of the middle class and is exactly like what the OP said - nationalizing assets. Because there would be no enforcement if a tenant doesn't pay rent and doesn't want to go through the process of the rental assistance. The landlord would be the one footing the bill for the very worst tenants. This is government backed theft of the worst sort.

2 Reply

Cory Macculloch

Professional · George Town, George Town · Member since 2016 · 25 posts · 3 votes

6y

@Mike Lambert Disculpe! Colombia should definitely not be on that list. Don't know where my head was at. Thanks for correcting.

I get where you are going with the definition and probably could be convinced by it - I was being liberal with it given the present comparison. With that in mind, I probably would have included PEMEX and the temporary historical Iranian oil expropriation as well. I definitely was not picking on Latin America.

As is evident to me with the post, the term nationalization is problematic as it is not airtight. We would be better off if we used more specific descriptions: (1) expropriation by the state with compensation and (2) expropriation by the state without compensation.

0 Reply

Gary L Wallman

Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Clark:

" That infrastructure was bought and paid for by the folks who "built it" as well. Pretty sure at least some part of my 300k in my yearly income and property taxes went to something worthwhile, like
infrastructure."

--------------------------------------

And some part of my comparable income and property taxes went to it too. Trouble is, some of the taxes of renters went to that infrastructure too. Also, it was government -- NOT you or me -- that planned and directed that investment.

Let me give you an example -- who created the value and the wealth seen in the property around Central Park in New York City? I'll give you a hint; it wasn't the people who own property there or even those who built or bought those buildings. It was the GOVERNMENT of New York City. How? The government made Central Park possible and then built it.

So no, you didn't build it on your own. You built it with the government's help, and you sell to people educated by the government (public education), and the local governments, for the health, safety, and welfare of us all, have TEMPORARILY banned evictions. You -- and I -- will be able to take money judgments and resume obtaining eviction orders as well.

The only delusional position is yours: You owe your wealth to being able to build on a foundation constructed by all levels of government.

John,

Sorry, your still way off base. Government produces NOTHING it simply redistributes wealth as it sees fit. Government is there to provide a level playing field, like officials in a sporting event. Nobody comes to watch the officials, but sometimes they change the outcome of a game due their errors or ineptness. Much like Government.

Government's assets come by taking it's citizens money under threat of imprisonment and giving it to other people THEY deem deserve it more. Including foreign countries. Perhaps you think the Government knows how to better spend your money. I do not.

While I'm keenly aware my taxes support our national defense and infrastructure and gladly pay those, far too much is squandered on nonsense. I would submit the amount of my tax dollars wasted exceeds those that are used prudently.

BTW, under your theorem, everyone should be rich, as everyone has access to the same infrastructure. All citizens of socialist countries should also be rich because the people own the infrastructure and means of production. Sorry, complete folly.

As I said before, utter nonsense.

0 Reply

Cory Macculloch

Professional · George Town, George Town · Member since 2016 · 25 posts · 3 votes

6y

For all those debating here. I will be very surprised if you walk away satisfied that this discussion has lead to the "right answer" being formulated and visible to all. When talking about political philosophy there is no right answer.

The moratorium is a tax on landlords, plain and simple. No one likes getting taxed. Whether it is "wrong" or "right" is going to depend on where you reside on the political spectrum and your personal bias. I have always found it easier accepting that there is no "right" answer, there is only the answer put forward by those with control which you can either accept or try to change using means you are comfortable with.

0 Reply

John Clark

Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

"BTW, under your theorem, everyone should be rich, as everyone has access to the same infrastructure. All citizens of socialist countries should also be rich because the people own the infrastructure and means of production. Sorry, complete folly."

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Gary, you either didn't read my post or didn't read it for comprehension. I wrote that you built your wealth on a foundation provided by the government. You cannot deny that. How you jump from "you built yours" to "why isn't everyone rich then, huh?" is beyond me.

You and I took advantage of the opportunities governments created by giving us the foundation of a civilized society. Others don't and didn't. They aren't well off. We are. That is irrelevant to the fact that it was government that gave us the foundation of our success: infrastructure, the opportunities created by the presence of infrastructure (e.g. Central Park in New York, mass transit stations near property we own, etc.) education, rule of law. The list goes on.

Is tax money squandered? Certainly. That is irrelevant to the simple fact that your wealth and my wealth is due to government action. Whether you want to whine about it or not, Gary, you have to give the Devil his due, and no, you did NOT build your wealth on your own. Your logic in trying to prove you did build it yourself (why isn't everyone rich) is delusional in the extreme.

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Gary L Wallman

Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Clark:

"BTW, under your theorem, everyone should be rich, as everyone has access to the same infrastructure. All citizens of socialist countries should also be rich because the people own the infrastructure and means of production. Sorry, complete folly."

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Gary, you either didn't read my post or didn't read it for comprehension. I wrote that you built your wealth on a foundation provided by the government. You cannot deny that. How you jump from "you built yours" to "why isn't everyone rich then, huh?" is beyond me.

You and I took advantage of the opportunities governments created by giving us the foundation of a civilized society. Others don't and didn't. They aren't well off. We are. That is irrelevant to the fact that it was government that gave us the foundation of our success: infrastructure, the opportunities created by the presence of infrastructure (e.g. Central Park in New York, mass transit stations near property we own, etc.) education, rule of law. The list goes on.

Is tax money squandered? Certainly. That is irrelevant to the simple fact that your wealth and my wealth is due to government action. Whether you want to whine about it or not, Gary, you have to give the Devil his due, and no, you did NOT build your wealth on your own. Your logic in trying to prove you did build it yourself (why isn't everyone rich) is delusional in the extreme.

John,

Man you still don't get it. Government doesn't produce anything, people do. In the course of history all of the most economically successful countries are those with the least government.

Pretty sure Hong Kong isn't rioting because they are looking forward to mainland China's gift of additional infrastructure.

Huge wealth was earned in this country prior to much infrastructure and most of that was privately built.

As an example, I live in a neighborhood where the roads are private. All privately built and owned. I can tell you they are in far better shape then the surrounding public roads.

My point is this; Governments taxing it's populace to build roads is way more inefficient then the folks keeping their own money and building their own damn roads.

Sorry if this truth is inconvenient to your theory.

Respectfully, Gary

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Andrey Y.

Specialist · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

6y

Originally posted by @Gary L Wallman:

Originally posted by @John Clark:

"BTW, under your theorem, everyone should be rich, as everyone has access to the same infrastructure. All citizens of socialist countries should also be rich because the people own the infrastructure and means of production. Sorry, complete folly."

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Gary, you either didn't read my post or didn't read it for comprehension. I wrote that you built your wealth on a foundation provided by the government. You cannot deny that. How you jump from "you built yours" to "why isn't everyone rich then, huh?" is beyond me.

You and I took advantage of the opportunities governments created by giving us the foundation of a civilized society. Others don't and didn't. They aren't well off. We are. That is irrelevant to the fact that it was government that gave us the foundation of our success: infrastructure, the opportunities created by the presence of infrastructure (e.g. Central Park in New York, mass transit stations near property we own, etc.) education, rule of law. The list goes on.

Is tax money squandered? Certainly. That is irrelevant to the simple fact that your wealth and my wealth is due to government action. Whether you want to whine about it or not, Gary, you have to give the Devil his due, and no, you did NOT build your wealth on your own. Your logic in trying to prove you did build it yourself (why isn't everyone rich) is delusional in the extreme.

John,

Man you still don't get it. Government doesn't produce anything, people do. In the course of history all of the most economically successful countries are those with the least government.

Pretty sure Hong Kong isn't rioting because they are looking forward to mainland China's gift of additional infrastructure.

Huge wealth was earned in this country prior to much infrastructure and most of that was privately built.

As an example, I live in a neighborhood where the roads are private. All privately built and owned. I can tell you they are in far better shape then the surrounding public roads.

My point is this; Governments taxing it's populace to build roads is way more inefficient then the folks keeping their own money and building their own damn roads.

Sorry if this truth is inconvenient to your theory.

Respectfully, Gary

This is correct.

Any time you introduce government, you introduce inefficiency, fraud, beurocracy, and leakage of money.

1 Reply

Anthony Jasmine

Member since 2020 · 33 posts · 24 votes

6y

Originally posted by @John Clark:

"How did you manage to make this a race issue? This has absolutely nothing to do with blacks or whites. Honestly this has become so far fetched. The point in which I’m trying to make is that I believe there’s a middle ground between socialism and advocating Jim Crow."
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Hold on there, Sport. YOU are the one who brought up freedoms and liberty as our "founding fathers" knew it. They knew slavery and supported it. The point is that you take the good with the bad. So you get to wax rapsodic about our founding fathers defending property, you have to accept the fact that slaves were property. Guess what? Our founding fathers were not perfect and did not create a perfect system.

So now the state has temporarily stripped you of the ability to evict tenants. How is that "socialism" by any rational definition of the word? You'll be able to go after your tenants for back rent, and evict them, within a reasonable defined length of time -- the end of the pandemic. That's not "socialism." It's not expropriation. It's state's exercising their inherent powers in the way they have exercised those powers for centuries (yes, even before, during, and after, our founding fathers).

Here's a suggestion: Stop your idiotic attempts at wrapping yourself in the flag.

Okay there sport. Ahaha. Let's try and stray away from condescending pet names and have a constructive conversation. There's a lot to digest here. I think that we can rationally understand that culture changes and also understand that we don't have to agree with slavery to agree with the core values of how our country operates. Here's an example that you might be able to wrap your head around. I personally find Louis C.K. funny, but that doesn't mean that I advocate or find sexual misconduct funny as well. Here's another one. I support law enforcement, but I don't advocate the killing of George Floyd that we recently just saw. I like George Lopez, but I don't support illegal immigration. Does that put things in perspective? Your interpretations of what you're trying to perpetuate onto me seems extremely linear for lack of better words.

Let's look at the basic definition of socialism in which most of us recognize it to be.

"any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods."

Checklist...

1) The federal government has mandated the Defense Production Act, which gives the government ability to tell any corporation that they now have to work for them and do what they demand.

2) The federal government is rejecting our fourth amendment to due process.

3) The government is artificially propping up particular sectors and corporations of their choosing by giving them billions of dollars.

4) The government is buying out ETF and shares to the point where the stock market doesn't even come close to matching the climate of our actual economy.

5) The government are now disrupting businesses by telling them they can't operate until they say so regardless if they can survive or not.

6) The government is now telling landlords that they are forced to run a homeless shelter instead of a business for the time being. You can try and figure it out if there's enough money left for you to get a grant or loan, but tough luck if it doesn't work out.

I'm not extreme enough to say that we are a socialist country as an entirety, and understand this is circumstantial. Having said that, if you can't connect any of these pieces here towards socialist/marxist driven policies, then godspeed "sport".

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Concerning how I'm wrapped up in the flag and discharging an emotionally driven argument. One, you're insulting me on a personal level in an attempt to validate your point. You choose to insult others on a personal level when your beliefs are challenged. That's bigotry and just really unpleasant to be around to be honest. I would like to just have a constructive conversation about what's going on in our country and you're here talking about I'm ignorant towards racism and calling me an idiot. Half of my family are left leaners, and we are all able to talk about policy without refraining to petty insults.

Here's another thing that a lot of people get triggered by these days. You ready? I love my country. I love my country despite the current decisions it's making right now. I see capitalism and our system as superior, and statistically the rest of the world does as well considering we receive the most citizenship applications in comparison to any other country out there. If you want to fixate on specific parts of our rotten history and fixate on that ignoring all the good, then go right ahead. This country provides a tremendous opportunity, and most people will never understand that until they are stripped of those rights. Contrary to popular opinion to popular opinion, I fully endorse patriotism. I enlisted in the Marine Corps at the age of 17, so if you want to go on your anti-america rhetoric, then I'm going to let you know that you're barking up the wrong tree.

If you would like to talk policy, and offer what you think better solutions are in an effort to sustain our economy and well-being during this crisis, I'd genuinely love to hear it. I love talking about these things. I got a month long back to back email debate going on with my Vietnam veteran liberal grandpa right now. We still get along great and respect the hell out of each other. If you want to shout nasty names at everyone on this thread who disagree's with you, then might I suggest one thing that took me a while to learn in my personal life... if you want to influence people into your way of thinking, then yelling and bickering at everyone saying they're stupid and inferior when challenged will never get the job done. If you want to continue with the pettiness, then I'm going to have to respectfully exit myself out of this conversation as I have more pressing concerns to attend to.

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The Government Nationalized My Rental Portfolio

The Government Nationalized My Rental Portfolio

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