Am I getting ripped with maintenance expenses from PM?

Member since 2020 · 78 posts · 27 votes

Hi Guys, can you share your opinion, please? Am I getting ripped with current property management? 3k for fixing gas line leaks. What are your thoughts and recommendations?

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Steve Vaughan

Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

I say yes, you are being taken. I've never had to do more with a gas line than replace a valve or dope and tighten a fitting.

A $250 w/heater repair? To do what? I've replaced t-stats and heating elements. The kit is $40. I've also replaced one t&p valve. $15. Not much else to repair on a w/h. Drain valve maybe but in 20 years with dozens of tanks I've never needed it.

With labor I could see a lower element or drain valve costing $250 but ask what was specifically done. T-stats take 5 minutes.

Your PM needs to be more specific about both 'repairs' and provide you before and after pics. Do you not have a $300 cap on repairs they can make without your consent?

These are the real costs of having a PM. Repairs and fill fees. Everybody gets hung up on the % of rents.

My PM tried to mess with me, but I'd go over and square it away myself. 3 days ago I got a $600 quote to replace the leaky irrigation backflow valve and troubleshoot wiring to the timer. I fixed both in 20 minutes and told the irrigation guy to not come back. This wasn't a direct quote from the PM so I will keep them for now.

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Steve Vaughan
Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
4y
I say yes, you are being taken. I've never had to do more with a gas line than replace a valve or dope and tighten a fitting.

A $250 w/heater repair? To do what? I've replaced t-stats and heating elements. The kit is $40. I've also replaced one t&p valve. $15. Not much else to repair on a w/h. Drain valve maybe but in 20 years with dozens of tanks I've never needed it.

With labor I could see a lower element or drain valve costing $250 but ask what was specifically done. T-stats take 5 minutes.

Your PM needs to be more specific about both 'repairs' and provide you before and after pics. Do you not have a $300 cap on repairs they can make without your consent?

These are the real costs of having a PM. Repairs and fill fees. Everybody gets hung up on the % of rents.

My PM tried to mess with me, but I'd go over and square it away myself. 3 days ago I got a $600 quote to replace the leaky irrigation backflow valve and troubleshoot wiring to the timer. I fixed both in 20 minutes and told the irrigation guy to not come back. This wasn't a direct quote from the PM so I will keep them for now.

6 Reply
Gene Livingston
Investor · Kyle, TX · Member since 2015 · 113 posts · 102 votes
4y
PM is obviously trying to be a contractor, which he's not. The rounded-off prices tell me so. An ALL NEW water heater, installed, is no more than $500 right now by the way (should be less really, but supply chain stuff has most things higher). So yea, you are definitely not get "friend" prices.
3 Reply
Dave PoeppelmeierBusiness Member
Realtor · Maumee, OH · Member since 2015 · 491 posts · 722 votes
4y
Quote from @Artur A.:

Hi Guys, can you share your opinion, please? Am I getting ripped with current property management? 3k for fixing gas line leaks. What are your thoughts and recommendations?

I would say get with your PM and ask for a breakdown. I agree that they shouldn't be nice round numbers, and if they can't give a breakdown then look for someone else. However, don't expect DIY prices from a PM. If it's a full service PM, you are paying them to be your project manager so you don't have to.
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Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Gene Livingston:

PM is obviously trying to be a contractor, which he's not. The rounded-off prices tell me so. An ALL NEW water heater, installed, is no more than $500 right now by the way (should be less really, but supply chain stuff has most things higher). So yea, you are definitely not get "friend" prices.

A 40 gallon hot water tank from Home Depot costs $439. Who are you getting to install your hot water tanks and remove the old one for $61.00? Does your state require a license to do so... Even if they do not, and you are paying cash to uncle Bill who has no front teeth but, he's dam good at Hot water tanks and gas lines... $61 is cheap.
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Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Artur A.:

Hi Guys, can you share your opinion, please? Am I getting ripped with current property management? 3k for fixing gas line leaks. What are your thoughts and recommendations?

I don't understand the quote. If they have not already done a pressure test to check for leaks how do they know the repair will cost $1750? I used to work for a propane company who handled this stuff in house. We had a flat fee to come out and pressure test and find the leaks. From there we would provide an onsite quote depending on how fast the gauge dropped and how long our guys would be on site. Its hard to understand where these flat fees are coming from without more info.
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Artur A.
OP
Member since 2020 · 78 posts · 27 votes
4y
Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

Quote from @Artur A.:

Hi Guys, can you share your opinion, please? Am I getting ripped with current property management? 3k for fixing gas line leaks. What are your thoughts and recommendations?

I don't understand the quote. If they have not already done a pressure test to check for leaks how do they know the repair will cost $1750? I used to work for a propane company who handled this stuff in house. We had a flat fee to come out and pressure test and find the leaks. From there we would provide an onsite quote depending on how fast the gauge dropped and how long our guys would be on site. Its hard to understand where these flat fees are coming from without more info.

This is a bill, not a quote
1 Reply
Drew SygitBusiness Member
Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
4y
@Artur A.
Amazing how many posters are giving advice without all the facts!
How did you verify these charges with your PMC?
How many feet of pipe did they have to replace?
Were permits and/or city inspection required?

How much was the labor?
If you share that info, we can give you better feedback.
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Theresa HarrisPro Member
Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
4y
Call and ask for a detailed breakdown. your contract with them should require permission from you, unless it is an emergency, for repairs over a certain about. I agree with others-the fact that it is exactly $3000 and all of the numbers are whole numbers is odd.
2 Reply
Eliott Elias
Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes
4y
Get quotes from other subcontractors and ask investors in your area. Price of material and labor differ from state to state. Property managers are known to hire out expensive work
1 Reply
Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Artur A.:

Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

Quote from @Artur A.:

Hi Guys, can you share your opinion, please? Am I getting ripped with current property management? 3k for fixing gas line leaks. What are your thoughts and recommendations?

I don't understand the quote. If they have not already done a pressure test to check for leaks how do they know the repair will cost $1750? I used to work for a propane company who handled this stuff in house. We had a flat fee to come out and pressure test and find the leaks. From there we would provide an onsite quote depending on how fast the gauge dropped and how long our guys would be on site. Its hard to understand where these flat fees are coming from without more info.

This is a bill, not a quote

Got it. Were you provided a quote prior?
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Artur A.
OP
Member since 2020 · 78 posts · 27 votes
4y
Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

Quote from @Artur A.:

Quote from @Matthew Irish-Jones:

Quote from @Artur A.:

Hi Guys, can you share your opinion, please? Am I getting ripped with current property management? 3k for fixing gas line leaks. What are your thoughts and recommendations?

I don't understand the quote. If they have not already done a pressure test to check for leaks how do they know the repair will cost $1750? I used to work for a propane company who handled this stuff in house. We had a flat fee to come out and pressure test and find the leaks. From there we would provide an onsite quote depending on how fast the gauge dropped and how long our guys would be on site. Its hard to understand where these flat fees are coming from without more info.

This is a bill, not a quote

Got it. Were you provided a quote prior?
I wasn't
1 Reply
Artur A.
OP
Member since 2020 · 78 posts · 27 votes
4y
He shared breakdown

Can I ask you to share your opinion, please?

@Steve Vaughan
1 Reply
Nathan Grabau
Realtor · Longmont, CO · Member since 2021 · 577 posts · 631 votes
4y
Quote from @Artur A.:

He shared breakdown

Can I ask you to share your opinion, please?

@Steve Vaughan

This is not a breakdown, this is a deeper summary of each item. A breakdown would attribute smaller values to each of the numbers. This does not seem outrageous if you are in a high labor cost market like Denver, but I would be shocked to get a bill at this level from my PM in Ames. Also they would actually give me a breakdown. If they fix something themselves they assign a number of hours to each task and charge an hourly rate and then materials. The round numbers here mean you are being taken for a ride or your PM does not know what he/ she is doing. Either way it might be time to look for someone who knows what they are doing.
2 Reply
Artur A.
OP
Member since 2020 · 78 posts · 27 votes
4y
Quote from @Nathan Grabau:

Quote from @Artur A.:

He shared breakdown

Can I ask you to share your opinion, please?

@Steve Vaughan

This is not a breakdown, this is a deeper summary of each item. A breakdown would attribute smaller values to each of the numbers. This does not seem outrageous if you are in a high labor cost market like Denver, but I would be shocked to get a bill at this level from my PM in Ames. Also they would actually give me a breakdown. If they fix something themselves they assign a number of hours to each task and charge an hourly rate and then materials. The round numbers here mean you are being taken for a ride or your PM does not know what he/ she is doing. Either way it might be time to look for someone who knows what they are doing.

Thank you for your feedback, Nathan
This is in Cinci, OH.
Do you know if there is a possibility of getting money back from PM in this case? Or it's easier just to move on and find another PM?

1 Reply
Nathan Grabau
Realtor · Longmont, CO · Member since 2021 · 577 posts · 631 votes
4y
So in my management contract, I have to approve any expenses that are over a certain dollar amount. There may be an exemption here for emergency items, I do not remember. If you have such a clause, and you did not approve the work before it was done, you could push back on that. Them putting all of this stuff on the same invoice potentially gives you grounds to say the hot water heater was not an emergency and they could just shut the gas off to fix the emergency. Was there a tenant in place while they did this? That helps them make the emergency case.
Either way, I think you are going to have a hard time getting out of it, and you probably would rather have a smooth transition than a get the 3k back and have them be a pain in the butt. I would move forward, but I can see that going either way.
1 Reply
Manco Snead
Investor · Spokane, WA · Member since 2015 · 238 posts · 133 votes
4y
I've arrived at a simple philosophy with PM; if things always seems unclear and confusing with them then it's time for a new PM.
5 Reply
Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
@Artur A. Tough to say whether you are getting ripped or not without seeing work done. Having no heads up a 3K bill is coming is a poor business practice.
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Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
@Jesse Stein it’s a business that has to be transparent to work. Vendor mark ups if any should be disclosed, maintenance work needs before and after pictures, and people geocoded to job sites, etc…
Most investors don’t mind paying for quality PM service as long as they know they are getting quality and can easily find evidence when needed.
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Peter TverdovBusiness Member
Developer · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Without reading the responses I am going to guess all the DIY landlords rush ITT and tell you that you're getting robbed.
We run a PMC in NJ and had to pressure test and replace a handful of gas leaks about 2 years ago and I believe the bill was in the $2500 range, so at first glance, no I don't think you're being robbed.
Contrary to popular opinion on BP, a lot of PMs are fair and honest. Don't hire the cheapest company and understand if your property is dated and has not been kept up properly then it will be expensive in the beginning to get everything corrected.
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0 Reply
Peter TverdovBusiness Member
Developer · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Nathan Grabau:

Quote from @Artur A.:

He shared breakdown

Can I ask you to share your opinion, please?

@Steve Vaughan

This is not a breakdown, this is a deeper summary of each item. A breakdown would attribute smaller values to each of the numbers. This does not seem outrageous if you are in a high labor cost market like Denver, but I would be shocked to get a bill at this level from my PM in Ames. Also they would actually give me a breakdown. If they fix something themselves they assign a number of hours to each task and charge an hourly rate and then materials. The round numbers here mean you are being taken for a ride or your PM does not know what he/ she is doing. Either way it might be time to look for someone who knows what they are doing.

Round numbers on a quote means you're getting robbed? Yikes, embarrassing response.
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0 Reply
Henry Zhu
Rockville, MD · Member since 2020 · 17 posts · 16 votes
4y
@Gene Livingston
Water heater installed only $500? Where you getting these prices.
The cheapest water heater I see on Home Depot is more than $500 without tax and delivery.
0 Reply
Henry Zhu
Rockville, MD · Member since 2020 · 17 posts · 16 votes
4y
@Matthew Irish-Jones
Nobody is ever gonna do any work for him at that price.
He is def the type to use unlicensed contractor.
0 Reply
Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Gene Livingston:

PM is obviously trying to be a contractor, which he's not. The rounded-off prices tell me so. An ALL NEW water heater, installed, is no more than $500 right now by the way (should be less really, but supply chain stuff has most things higher). So yea, you are definitely not get "friend" prices.
Im going to say thats market dependent. Thats like a 1995 price to me for a waterheater lol.
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Matt M.
Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Quote from @Gene Livingston:

PM is obviously trying to be a contractor, which he's not. The rounded-off prices tell me so. An ALL NEW water heater, installed, is no more than $500 right now by the way (should be less really, but supply chain stuff has most things higher). So yea, you are definitely not get "friend" prices.

You guys pay $500 for a water heater, and install? Are these Walmart water heaters? I am paying $500 for a Bradford White 50 gal electric, heater only.
1 Reply
Artur A.
OP
Member since 2020 · 78 posts · 27 votes
4y
This is a markdown:
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