Need advice on dealing with contractors
Guys I need help here.
I finally accepted a bid with a contractor to replace my triple decker deck which is a big project that involves demolishing the old deck and putting a new one (15k incl adding gutters and putting asphalt in the backyard). Previously the old deck (that was almost falling apart) had the stairs going circular (which is not up to code in Boston anymore) which gave my deck a lot of space. I have requested multiple times from the contractor to provide me with plans so I can see how the new deck will look like and he always made up excuses not to provide them. They were working VERY fast and in 5 days they are like 70% done (and bc of my lack of experience I let them work 5 days without showing me the plans) I realized that the new stairs done the right way are taking LITERALLY all my deck space. So now when I open the balcony door I have stairs in front of me and I can put barely 2 chairs on each side - NO MORE DECK... So now I feel that I am paying 15k for an expensive fire escape rather than a deck and I feel I am getting ripped off. As I called the contractor today and asked him to stop everything until the plans are provided his tone was pretty aggressive which is now making me consider immediately stopping the whole project and not pay him and if court is the way to go , so be it.
Now I have mostly dealt with handy men and this is the first time I deal with contractors. This particular contractor was shady (tried to get paid earlier than his schedule, claimed the property passed "first inspection" while all they got was a permit, etc....)
Please advise how I should move forward as I am meeting him tomorrow. I know the general feeling on the forums is either (1) fire him / cut your losses or (2) suck it up and move forward as some of it is my mistake for not insisting on receiving the plan (god knows if they're even following a construction plan).
PS: Our contract does not state anything about termination. It's a relatively small document that just states that they will build me a triple decker deck and that I pay them in 3 installments. 1 at the beginning, 1 when it passes inspection, and 1 at the very end.
please advise
Hi @Georges A., what were the dimensions of the existing deck? Is the new deck the exact same footprint as the existing deck? There are two things at play here: (1) the dimensions of the old deck, which cannot be increased without triggering a variance of building code (unless you have a larger lot and 20+ feet of space from the back and 15+ feet on either side - don't quote me on the exact numbers). (2) What is specifically written in your contract with regards to the plans/design? If written plans were not part of the contract, then you know your answer, which is #2 (sorry).
Most contractors do not draw plans anyway; architects create plans (to scale, etc). Normally it's not done for something like a deck, unless you were going to submit for a variance with the city. Building code dictates a minimum rise over run (how much height can be gained versus the depth of the step). If your old steps were like a navy ship, steep and not much depth to each step, then it's to be expected that you are going to lose some space. Sometimes you can get creative with the design. Knowing the overall dimensions in relation to your door would be helpful.
With regards to payments and the hiring/contract part, did you confirm he is licensed? The first third is usually for materials, the second third can be after the framing of the deck is built, new footings are poured (if they needed to be) - which is two inspections, one for footings, one for rough framing (but not always enforced in Boston), and mostly covers materials and labor. Obviously the final third is when everything is done and you're happy. Materials aren't cheap. 15k for the whole job isn't an unusual rate in Boston, I am sure he is making a fair profit.
I'd be careful firing him at this stage of the rebuild, especially if he's performed according to the contract you both signed. We use detailed contracts and/or have architect plans. Sometimes things change, but it's always best to have a clause stating that if the product is to be built different than the design, they have to clear it with us or else they may not get paid for that work and any re-work.
We've had many issues like this before and unfortunately, you just have to learn from them sometimes.
#1 Foreclosures Contributor
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#1 Foreclosures Contributor
- Real Estate Professional
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Well, I guess you know the obvious issues with signing a contract for a GC to build something that's not specified. Not sure you could prevail in court. Are you sure there is even a permit? The permit had to be based on something.
by the way, i'm not trying to defend the contractor because if you asked for plans, he should have given them too you. but I'm just trying to think like a judge would if you try to go to court over this.
@Wayne Brooks - in Boston, you can get a simple permit for something non-structural (which an exterior deck would be) without needing to submit any plans
@Georges A. - if the permit for the deck is not in your window (piece of paper with a B as a watermark, then you may have an issue). if you do have that, the permit number is on there. if you're not sure, you can look it up here: https://data.cityofboston.gov/Permitting/Approved-...
The site is, unfortunately, a little difficult to use. Knowing your parcel ID is a big help and can be found online with the tax info on the city of boston government site.
#4 Contractors Contributor
- Contractor
- Atlanta, GA
Hate to say it, but if your contract just says 'build a triple story deck', and the deck is triple story and built to code, and the proper permits were pulled and inspections made, and you have no other building plan... legally speaking, you're hosed. The contractor has performed to his contract and is owed money. Put it in front a judge and you're going to lose.
At this point, you should expect to do four things -
1) Pay someone to draw plans
2) Pay someone to tear the deck apart
3) Pay someone to build you a new one
4) Pay the current contractor for his progress to date
Given your situation, I would probably not rehire your current contractor. He may be legally in the right, but it's still a lousy way to do business and he failed to satisfy. Cut him loose and find someone better to work with.
Thank you guys for the very valuable inputs. You're right what can I say, it was an expensive lesson for me. Next time, no plans no work. He just emailed me the plans and they don't match what's on site. I went to measure and his plans are completely off!!!
@Ray Hurteau as you mentioned he's building the new deck to replace the old one's (same dimensions) and since I had the steep stairs you described that were not up to code, putting the stairs correctly made me lose a lot of space. The 15.5k price tag includes replacing my gutters and covering my backyard with asphalt btw.
@wayne I do have a permit and already checked with the city. It's a short form for emergency removal of deck and replacing it with another one on same footprint.
@aaron you're right I still don't think it's worth the hassle. He's just another bad contractor out of many that I will not be hiring again. I'll have him complete the job, pay him, and never hire him again.
Again, your input was very valuable. Thank you !
#3 Contractors Contributor
- Contractor
- Los Angeles, CA
@Georges A. You are missing a couple of parts, if you want to step in to grey areas about verbal conversations, and he would admit it in court, then you have a little leverage, what your solid legal ground right now is the contract which @Aaron McGinnis explained to you. If their measures are off, then its still in the grey area, if he denies it in court, you still lose, since you have no plans, no contracts to back it up. Text messages are acceptable, save them.
If it were me, I would stop the work and get someone to get an evaluation on what percent the job is worth, either 40% of the contract, 50%, or whatever, then pay him the balance. Do not forget that the asphalt has not started yet, that's a big plus since those are an expensive line item. Working with contractors needs a good contract, I would suggest that you include line items next time you get a bid. And always follow your instincts, if everything is not complete, don't give them a notice of award (this is to get them ready and schedule themselves) then a notice to proceed (this is used when everything is complete, you need a clause on this one too).
Check with building department if he pulled the permit or you had inspection, I do not think they have both, the contractor will have to have the drawings approved. If the contractor submitted drawings, approved, and permitted, then you could get a copy from the building department, just sweet talk your way to it, check the drawings if it were according to plan. On the other hand, if he built something that was not approved and permitted, then you might be entitled to get all the monies that you paid him for working without permits.
#4 Contractors Contributor
- Contractor
- Atlanta, GA
A side note... those plans only mean something if they were an exhibit to the contract. Especially if the contract has any language about the written contract being the entire contract with no outside contracts (Which is a pretty standard piece of contract language)
#3 Contractors Contributor
- Contractor
- Los Angeles, CA
True, but then again, we are dealing here with a shady contractor and an investor that only dealt with handyman, as mentioned on the first post and "PS", it is not probably a 3 paragraph contract, or maybe 1 with 3 sentences. Basically it falls down on he said she said type of contract when it comes to court.
@Georges A. I guess you should've read the book on contracts first.
@mike hurney we ended up being able to work out something. But of course so this mistake does not happen again (and the lesson would be much more expensive), do you have any suggested reading or books that you recommend?
@Georges A.I was actually being a little sarcastic, implying that everything can be learned from a book;-)
At our MassRealEstate.net meetings, we have a local Contractor's son who is an Attorney that specializes in Construction Contracts and Title Searches in Massachusetts. For our members he placed a downloadable Contract on the site and offers a 45 minute complimentary consultation. In addition he does a whole evening for us, once a year on Contracts Do's and Don'ts.
You may want to call some Attorney's that do Contracts work and have a Consultation with them!