Any Realtors Monetizing the project management of OOS BRRRRs?

Any Realtors Monetizing the project management of OOS BRRRRs?

Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes

I'm curious to hear other Realtors thoughts on this. I work primarily with investors as a Realtor, many of these investors recently being from out of state. I've sold some flips, house hacks, buy and holds, and closed a BRRRR today starting work Friday. Some retail and distressed sales in the mix, so there's no one single investing niche they've all been in other than generally single family and small multi.

These out of state investors I've worked with wish to purchase properties in my market for various reasons, and due to the distance are typically looking for minor rehabs or move-in-ready properties for a good deal. I'm more than happy to field contractor quotes, shoot video, take measurements, etc to help analyze the deals and get rehab lined up for post-closing. I don't charge anything for this part for now, to me it's part of being a good investor friendly Realtor and I get repeat business and referrals out of it. I make my commission, I don't charge a transaction fee, and I'm good with it. As an added bonus, I'm using all the same contacts I have used on previous JV deals or other client flips, picking the best of each I know and finding new leads for those I wasn't happy with . All along building a 'go-to' team for myself or others through personal experience. I find that Contractors really don't care if it's me writing a check for my deal or a client paying them for a deal I found but don't own, they thank me for the business either way, especially when I stay involved to check in on things and keep everyone honest. I think this relationship building has an intangible value to my own future investing that is huge.


So far, I've mainly worked rehabs for clients as 'boots on the ground' with those that have some experience putting new cabinets in a kitchen of their own or into a flip elsewhere. They are thousands of miles away so they won't come DIY the work, but they understand what's involved. It's easier to pick cabinet boxes with someone by email who has hung cabinet boxes before compared to one who hasn't. They may have rehabbed a bathroom once before or laid some LVP. On a recent JV flip, I was very involved, but profit in the deal was my payment for it. So I'm doing the local part of measuring spaces, advising materials due to the comps, establishing and fine tuning a scope of work for client and contractor to agree on, etc, basically making sure things go smoothly and clients are well informed of all options/costs. But they're shouldering the part of picking cabinets and fixtures to order for now. However, as I build these contractor relationships, measure and sketch kitchens, and make suggestions on which cabinet boxes to order or whether granite or laminate belongs, I've started to see that it would be pretty straightforward to package it into somewhat of a 'service'. I've got a great contractor who doesn't need micromanagement, but I also don't like asking contractors to make design decisions. Curious if anyone has done something similar for out of state investors buying BRRRRs and buy and hold deals in their market.

My thought is that I'll keep doing what I'm doing with the novice-rehab investors who want to dive in and pick cabinets.  I'm happy to make suggestions, discuss options, and move forward with deal after deal.  The repeat and referral business is worth it. With an investor client who really doesn't know the first thing about what goes where, it may be a first deal, rehabs are scary, so far only selling rent ready rehabs to these types of buyers,  I think having a somewhat turn key light rehab option would be great.  I could quite easily put together a scope of work detailed down to the item numbers of the cabinet boxes and light fixtures. I have roofers, tile guys, electricians, etc I can field quotes from.  I'm already finding certain cabinets, fixtures, materials I like using in rehabs over and over, so over time I can see having a list of the go-to products to put together the order for a new kitchen or bathroom quite easy.  Same goes for vanities, toilets, flooring, doors, etc.  If during due diligence I was able to establish a solid scope of work with every material listed, a solid rehab bid or bids, and manage the schedule through to completion, I can see that being worth something. I already end up doing most all of this, but it's typically spread between due diligence period and some post-closing.  More efficiency and potentially monetizing it is what I'm considering.  The investor would then be able to review everything to see what's involved and make any requested changes, but they wouldn't have to pick it all from scratch.

 I wouldn't be on site managing like a true 'project manager' who works for a GC, but I'm booking the fumigation around the demo, the granite around the cabinet install.  I'm making sure this or that is done when it's supposed to be and at the end turning it over to a PM or a tenant if they self manage (I don't do Property Management).  I'm trying to decide if this is something that could be offered as a package deal in a sense, in exchange for something like a $500 transaction fee at closing.... or if it would be something that would be a fee based service paid after rehab is done.   

I'm not asking for the legal side of charging the transaction fee, that varies state to state and broker to broker, I'll talk to mine about that part.  But I'm curious to hear of creative ways investor friendly realtors help their out of state buyers and make it a win/win, possibly monetizing and scaling that 'in between' job of managing vendors to get these deals rehabbed and rented.  It's a great learning experience for now, but in time it's something I'd like to scale so I'd likely have to monetize it to offer it on every deal.

I could see down the road hiring non-licensed assistants to shoot videos, measure kitchens and bathrooms, meet contractors, etc.  My wife and I do have a team through our brokerage that we could run these expenses through as costs of sale, but tossing around the the execution of it and open to ideas/discussion.  Any thoughts?

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Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 741 posts · 845 votes
6y

Hey @Russell Holmes! You absolutely should be getting paid for the value you are adding to the market place! I manage projects for investors who are buying in the Memphis area and understand all the work that goes into overseeing construction projects. When my clients buy properties on the MLS, I make my standard commission but I also charge 25% of the budget as a fee for managing the project. We are very good at what we do and find that the fee we charge is well worth the expense to an owner who can't otherwise be present to run a job. My clients know what I charge and now just run their numbers knowing that the management fee is included!

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  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 741 posts · 845 votes
    6y

    Hey @Russell Holmes! You absolutely should be getting paid for the value you are adding to the market place! I manage projects for investors who are buying in the Memphis area and understand all the work that goes into overseeing construction projects. When my clients buy properties on the MLS, I make my standard commission but I also charge 25% of the budget as a fee for managing the project. We are very good at what we do and find that the fee we charge is well worth the expense to an owner who can't otherwise be present to run a job. My clients know what I charge and now just run their numbers knowing that the management fee is included!

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    6y

    @Stephen Akindona thank you, that’s great information! I imagine you break jobs down to the core subs to avoid contractor markup where possible?

    I’m not interested in being the contractor, just having the right person or company for every job.

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    6y

    @Stephen Akindona also, is this 25% fee paid to you directly, not tied to that commission from sale? Seems to me that since the fee is for project management and not related to the sale itself, it wouldn’t have to go through the brokerage like a commission?

    Do you have a separate contract to agree to this part of your services? I imagine you sell some properties that don’t need this effort too?

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 741 posts · 845 votes
    6y

    Well yes and no! I hire a roofer (if the property needs a roof), electrician, HVAC contractor and then an interior guy.

    My interior guy then hires out all the painters, the flooring and carpentry guys! So for every job I am managing 4 people max! Because I own a lot of rentals, I know good roofers, electricians and HVAC techs! Those guys are easier to manage, its the interior guy that usually causes most of the issues! Lol

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 741 posts · 845 votes
    6y

    Correct, project management is a fee paid to me directly and does not run through the brokerage. No different then a consulting fee you would charge for your expertise.

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    6y

    @Stephen Akindona that’s great to hear. Similar to my thoughts on this $15k rehab starting this week. $1500 straight to the pest control guy for fumigation, $4-5k earmarked for a driveway and patio pour direct to vendor, and a contractor to do kitchen cabinets and counters, appliance hookups, vanities, 5 panels of wood fence, interior pre hung doors, a bit of termite repair, and a few other things. Cost includes appliances and materials too that client is ordering for contractor to pickup (or amazon to my house).

    I could have found a handyman for a few line items for less, but this one guy will knock it all out in two weeks and in total came in lower than I estimated. Can’t step over dollars to chase pennies trying to save $200 on a fence or $75 on appliance install.

  • Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2013 · 741 posts · 845 votes
    6y

    @Russell Holmes, yes we would have charged $3750 to oversee and manage this process. You have time invested in meeting contractors, I usually get a couple bids, then you have to ensure the work actually gets done in a timely fashion! Another we do is warrant the work for 6 months after tenant move in! Anything on the scope of work, if there is a repair needed we take care of it for our clients at no charge. 

    My contractors all warrant their work so if there is a repair needed, I just send them out to handle!

  • Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Russell Holmes We have done this for some clients here in CT. It works best when you are dealing with people who have either extensive construction or real estate rehab experience. It helps fill in the gaps that come as a result of them not being local. 

  • Whitney HuttenPro Member
    Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Russell Holmes I agree, what you are doing provides great value to out of state investors and those who don't have time or the knowledge to oversee a rehab.  I'm one of those investors!

    I've seen project management fees from $2500-$6000 per rehab.  The best-aligned fees are ones where I'm purchasing the property through the realtor (commission), they oversee the rehab (depending on what needs to be done $2000-$3000... they aren't the GC but oversee the GC), and they lease it up (fee) and even might have it under management (ongoing fee).  

    If you are doing the GC work, make sure you are properly insured, have workman's comp, and that your subs are insured too.  I've seen many lawsuits from shoddy work.  Ideally, I think you would want to oversee a GC and his team and outsource that liability. You might charge on the lower side, BUT you can do more real estate transactions and rehabs thus making more due to leveraging those people's time under you.  You can also capture more repeat investors as you can get more projects done.  All thoughts!  PM me if you want to talk more.

  • Lehigh Valley, PA · Member since 2016 · 144 posts · 91 votes
    6y

    You seem to do a lot of work for free. Honestly, I don't have the time to read your entire post. My questions are:

    1. How long have you been in the business as a realtor

    2. Do you work for a broker or independent

    3. How many sales have you made in the last year

    4. Have you calculated your hourly income using the variables of number of deals, time spent on each deal, and commission paid on each deal. 

    This would be a basis for me to outline a business model if I were doing what you do (I used to but bought stuff along the way that I can now live off my cash flow. However, I still work if I need extra income or want to learn something new)

    Best of success,

    Sam

  • Real Estate Broker · Apopka, FL · Member since 2017 · 492 posts · 528 votes
    6y

    @Michael Noto & @Whitney Hutten I appreciate the feedback! I'm definitely not going to play the GC or take on any of that liability or time commitment, I'm more so looking to know the right people for the task who themselves carry licenses and liability insurance. Then stay on top of schedule and completion to be sure it all happens and navigate the hurdles that arise.  I'd Manage the project overall but not manage the subs who should be under a GC.  If it's a little job needing one or two single-trade guys, I can swing that management as well while they pull permits and hold insurance etc. Most importantly, all contracts and payments for work would go from investor to contractor, not through my hands. I step out of the way when it's time to sign the contract or write the check.  Then warranties and legal recourse for work has a clean paper trail from who paid to who did the work.  I'm not trying to start a renovation 'company' here. At least not now. 


    My brokerage doesn't offer/allow property management, but it's also not an interest of mine at all currently to manage other's properties. I can post a rental listing on the MLS for my self-managing clients and do showings, collect info, etc, but that's where it ends. Like hanging cabinets or pouring a driveway, I'd rather have a good PM to refer, some of whom pay me for that referral, further monetizing the total project. I get the 'all in one' idea, but many PMs I know who also sell property aren't interested in helping brand new investors buy single family homes. They'll help on a 20-unit sale, but otherwise it's not of interest since the PM company is their main entrepreneurial focus, not sales. I think a good Realtor and a good Property Manager can and usually should be two different people. Especially out of state, it gives two real estate professional's opinions to consider.

      I've talked to several colleagues locally as well today who have shared similar advice on a fee or percentage. It's good to hear others have filled this need with a fee based service and it's worked well from both the Realtor and Investor side.  Now my wife and I can drill down into exactly what it is that we will and won't offer as well as how this fee will be established.   Definitely interested to hear of anyone else's ideas as well.  

    @Sam C. if you're still reading this far, I appreciate you chiming in, but I'm well capable of designing and working my business plan. Skimming my post, saying you don't have time to read it, and then banging out some completely generic questions does nothing of value.

    I didn't ask to help me launch a business or fix my business plan. I also said nothing of doing a bunch of work for free for no reason.  Everything in this business has value, but it doesn't always have to be $/hour paid up front. If you factor your dollar per hour on every new avenue you expand into before you've built efficiency, you've likely stayed pretty narrow in opportunity and not taken many risks to grow.

    I haven't had a W-2 since 2007, I don't want one now. I did a flip last year with $0 out of my pocket, fully funded by a partner that started as a client. I offered some 'free work' in getting the deal rolling, then boom, I'm a JV partner in it when I was just trying to 'get' a 'free education' and offer value. Who would have guessed.... What I made per hour on that flip is not what's important, it was each of our first flip and we didn't lose his money. What's important is that I learned how to do things better/faster/cheaper on the next and it's helped me immensely in projects since then. Systems, efficiency, core-four, ah nevermind....I've probably lost you already.

      This post is about monetizing a new niche that's arising out of my current business, one I assume many BP Realtors have come across.  That assumption is proving true with all this other awesome advice, so I'm glad I posted. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    The agents that I have met that do project management typically charge a flat fee or percentage of the rehab budget. I briefly looked into this but quickly decided it was not something I wanted to get involved in. I think it can be a great asset to your client base if you enjoy coordinating rehabs and managing people. The process that I've seen usually involves the project manager creating the punch list, coordinating multiple bids for the work, coordinating with the GC on timelines and being the go-to communication person for both parties. They also help resolve disputes between contractor and client, keep contractors on the timeline and provide regular updates on the project.

    Depending on your brokerage model, you may have to set up a separate company to do your project management piece. It's definitely a needed service, it just depends on whether it's something that you want to do. 

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