How high can property values go?

How high can property values go?

Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

I have just rekindled my interest in bigger pockets. I have been shocked at how few names I recognize from years ago. I have probably been gone mostly for three or four years. It does not really surprise me how many new investors there are when I look at how high prices have been bid up. The simple old story of more demand than product.

I am old enough to have gone through a few recessions/depressions  and have owned many properties at those times. I saw what happened to so many friends and investors. As I get older, I become more cautious about high risk endeavors.

Here is my reasoning for being concerned about this madness. We all know history repeats itself so let's take a look at something.

I am picking the city of Phoenix just because I know something about it. I bought apartments there back in the 70s and single-family residences there a few years ago. All of those items were successful.

I am not a computer techie, but I know there are many on bigger pockets that are. Six months ago I saw and article where someone that had done a graph of real estate value increases for the years before the big crash. The person then did a graph of what has been going on for the last few years. You could lay the graphs on top of each other and the similarity was scary. We are in that period of time that things turned awful in Phoenix on the original chart. How much longer before history repeats itself? There are some of you that seem to think the answer is never. Others think it will be a 2 – 5% drop. Others say they will be able to see it in advance and bailout. How did that work out last time?

I was visiting a friend of mine in Phoenix at the height of that lunacy. He took me to a lottery of real estate opportunity! A builder had just determined to sell an additional 10 homes in preconstruction phase. There were over 50 people there who put their names in a fishbowl with the hopes they would be the lucky one to be able to purchase one of these underpriced 10 homes. My friend was "lucky"enough to be a winner! A second builder was doing the same thing and my friend was lucky enough to win there also. I remember him telling me during the construction stage that the price of his home had been raised twice in a single day! It was complete lunacy complete lunacy how much the price increased during construction.

It was within one year that he had fallen behind and worked  deal out to deed the properties back to the lender in lieu of foreclosure. That is sad reality.

I know there are locals in Phoenix that witnessed the same things. I don't know of many people that saw it coming and were able to save their butts ahead of time. I hope this time will be different but I'm not sure about that.

I could give other examples of the early 80s when the same thing happened but I don't want to bore you.

I have been told by real estate brokers in the Dallas area that inflation will continue to be 5 to 6% this year. I hope so but I have read other things that say a slowdown is starting. I am talking about multiunit buildings and not single-family residences. I do not know the predictions on those nationwide or in any particular areas.

My decision is to play it safe and sell one property and not do a 1031. I will hold the cash for security and I am not waiting as a vulture for bad things to happen and purchase additional properties. I do not have a crystal ball, but I do have age and a lot of experience. I am old enough to have seen the highs and lows. The highs are euphoric and the lows are disastrous

Any other thoughts?

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
9y

On a long enough timeline there is no cap on prices....because there is no stopping the economic force of inflation. Prices go up, and prices do go down....but eventually they will always be higher. 

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2015 · 201 posts · 98 votes
    9y

    @Mindy Jensen

    LOL, I was like what the heck, lets read this post!

     There should be an option to edit post in the upper right corner of your post. I've never tried to change the title of a post though.

  • Johnson City, TN · Member since 2014 · 586 posts · 705 votes
    9y

    I think the market is overheated right now not just in multifamily but in single family as well. There has been a tremendous boom in multifamily the last 6 years. Where have these renters living under a bridge before? I see multifamily soon over capicity in available units. In single family I see repos coming on the market at retail price and being bought. Everyone talks about investing in real estate now. People come on here asking if something is a deal and it won't even cash flow. People wanting to buy property when they don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. People looking for mentors or asking if it's wise to spend thousands on a course. 

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    I was always of the belief that when I saw everyone getting on the train, I would get off.. I also believed that when everyone was getting off the train, I would get on....

    I just checked records on an apartment building I purchased in Dallas 18 months ago. Some of you are aware of it ( Carlos) because you tried to purchase it also...I have raised the rent every six months and am now 24% higher in rental rates. The building is still 98% occupied with zero delinquency. My other two buildings have also been increased the same amounts with very little vacancy. I've even commented to my property manager that I don't understand how these people pay the higher rents. We always seem to have someone willing to do that.I just don't understand how that can continue, but I have certainly enjoyed the ride.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    I am seeing the same thing you are all over the place @Rich Weese. New flippers trying to pay full MLS asking, all cash, and still being rejected. Good thing for them I say, although they may not yet realize it yet.

    I'm no chicken little, but am selling off some dogs.  Slowly, like 2-4 houses a year for now as to not awaken Uncle Sam too much.  My larger commercial stuff and apt buildings will probably get 1031'd into a less expensive market in 2018.

    The market dynamics that are causing the froth this time around may be different, but the graphs are alarmingly similar like you mention.This is more of a supply/demand, low inventory bubble than a crazy money supply bubble due to lax underwriting and CDOs of the GRC days, but there are definitely similarities.   This one may have another 18 months is my guess.

    RE investing is sexy again.  Every few years appliance delivery and hardware store people want to take my frumpy homeless-looking plumber construction painter self to lunch and offer to work for free just to 'be around it'.  Whatever. Gurus, TV, books, podcasts, the internet, forums, etc are all fanning the flames of 'sure riches' in real estate once again.  Or so they think...  

    I want to be in The Villages playing softball when the music stops this time. I'll look you up!

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

     @Steve Vaughan

    I'm planning on selling one building now with no 1031. The values have gone up so much lately that I can afford to pay all taxes now and sit on the sidelines. I don't want to 1031 into an exorbitant price at the present time.. I'm not sure I will even get back in with this cash. There are some other options. I'm looking into.I hope you are correct on the 18 months that I'd rather be safe than sorry. I'm more conservative now that I am an old fark..

    Side note – there are 250 softball teams here in the villages with a three-week tryout to determine which of the five levels you fit in! Beautiful facilities and great friendship. You go through a three session tryout and then drafted by the coach in the level you are in. I'm rated in the second level which is still pretty high. I played baseball in college. We even have the Canseco brothers coming and playing in our tournaments!

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    @Mindy Jensen

    Thank you for fixing my mess…

  • Investor · Saint Charles, MO · Member since 2016 · 118 posts · 91 votes
    9y

    From an article in the Economist on 8/24/16:

    "On average, American home prices have recovered nearly all their losses from the 2006 crash, but when adjusted for inflation they are still 20% below the 2006 peak."

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/...

  • CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Hi guys - good topic... And I have a question that I wanted to ask...

    For those of you that been thru more than the 07/08 correction, what were the previous corrections feel like? As bad as 07/08 one, or not quite as painful?

    By the way, I do agree that it is NOT time to buy now... I am waiting on the sideline now, could be 2-3 year wait... But who knows...

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    I agree ... I sold out of my single families in Phoenix in 2016 ... tripled in price since purchased in 2010, held in a Roth IRA LLC so no cap gains tax, nice payday. In retrospect I may have been a bit too early, but better too early than too late ... I'll hold my local CA inventory, but they are all VERY conservatively financed so I'm fairly certain I'd be fine even in a great depression like scenario (although I may have just jinxed us all with that statement). If anything I may lever them up a bit and go shopping for more if we get a big dip, then pay them down as the next cycle starts to overheat just like I did last time. I like the "get off the train when everyone gets on" analogy (and visa-versa), Rich ... volatility can be your best friend if you play it right and don't follow the crowd.

  • Ben McMahonPro Member
    Investor · San Diego CA · Member since 2014 · 341 posts · 139 votes
    9y

    To buy or Not?  I stopped buying rentals 1 1/2 years ago.  A smart investor buddy of mine stopped 2 and 1/2 years ago.  I don't know, but it smells awfully familiar.  I think there are deals to be had that are still worth pursuing, but not in my area.  In 2006 everyone told me to buy real estate while I still could.  I didnt.  In 2009 everyone told me not to buy real estate, and I did.  I trust my spider sense more than the experts.

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    Where have these renters living under a bridge before? 

    They were either living in Mommy and Daddy's basement or with 15 of their closest friends in a 2 BR apartment sleeping in a closet ... same place they'll likely end up back at after the crash ...

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    On a long enough timeline there is no cap on prices....because there is no stopping the economic force of inflation. Prices go up, and prices do go down....but eventually they will always be higher. 

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Clint E.:

    From an article in the Economist on 8/24/16:

    "On average, American home prices have recovered nearly all their losses from the 2006 crash, but when adjusted for inflation they are still 20% below the 2006 peak."

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/...

    Good article and I have no doubt the statistics are accurate. However, I would point out that the 2006 was a RE bubble, and therefore those prices are not a sound basis for comparison IMO. So, when they say it is 20% below that peak inflation adjusted, I think it makes it look better than it actually is because that is compared to bubble prices. 

    Also interesting that SF is 40% above its long term average, that seems to be price to income ratio ... I like affordability better since it also factors in interest rates, which makes it look not as bad but then again if rates rise rapidly and/or significantly off their historic lows that statement flies out the window. 

    And finally, to those that say you can't make money in expensive markets, look at the long term slope of the price index chart for SF and NY compared to the nation ... and that is a trend shown to hold strong all the way back to the 80s on the chart. I'd bet a similar chart of average rents would show a similar relationship. Of course, you would've had to held through some big dips to make it to the long term, and it always would be helpful to pick advantageous entry points if at all possible.

  • Investor · Bothell, WA · Member since 2015 · 88 posts · 55 votes
    9y

    @Diane G. Ine big difference I am seeing in this market vs. 2008 is the rent increases. I bought up rentals 2004 to 2008, but was never able to increase rents. When I started buying again in 2014, there have been rent increases as well.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Grand Rapids, MI · Member since 2013 · 803 posts · 689 votes
    9y

    I didn't really start investing till after the last recession so I don't have as much experience as some but I do know one thing, if it still cash flows I will buy it. I still find deals and if they make sense I will keep buying (bought one last week). At the end of the day I have to invest my money somewhere and I like the control RE gives me over the stock market. If the RE market crashes so does everything else but at least rents won't change, if anything they will keep rising and cash flow increases. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Friendswood, TX · Member since 2010 · 663 posts · 508 votes
    9y

    @Rich Weese  When we sold our one TX at the end of last year I put the proceeds in with a 1031 intermediary and HUSTLED to find off market deals to roll them into.  No such luck.  I am fine with paying the tax because it didn't make sense to get out of a 7.xx cap into another 7.xx cap. I thought about selling a mobile home park as well since values are strong but they are really tough to find that i was fine with holding onto it for a long time ( or forever) . Paid down some debt and have equity ready to redeploy on the right deal and im actively looking right now.

    Also on Dallas, I understand its a great market with jobs but there is a lot of supply coming online. I also think there are a lot of buyers that are pricing in the future growth into current acquisitions.  Buying at 6 caps .  I think its a little wild especially when you pencil in a conservative cap rate on the exit down the road . I no longer look at apartments but that just seems really questionable to me and at some point you have to wonder..... 

    Its really easy when things are going well . I remember a few times where we would rehab a unit and struggle to get a decent tenant in their for slight more than an un rehabbed unit without the additional cap improvements.  The phone wouldn't ring a whole lot some weeks either regardless of where you advertised. Sometimes when you are on the up and up its easy to not think about those things but when you hit a soft market it really builds "character".  Thats what I love most about the guys who have been in the game for a while, I love reading the posts because it gives investors invaluable perspective. 

    Theres a point where you weigh what little upside remains along with what potential downfall lies ahead and some deals just don't make sense.  While all investing has risk, some deals carry a larger level of risk than others .  Id rather be lucky than smart  ( but when I can , id like to be lucky and smart :)   ) 

  • Real Estate Agent · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I believe we are overheated. In some cities the average worker can no afford the average home. By some measures, this could be good for rentals, however it also drives up the cost of SFH.

    The landing in RE is not going to be the hard crash of the last cycle. The simple explanation is the amount of leverage is far less. There is no mass increase in monthly payments coming for most home owners. The average homeowner is not in a house they can not afford, no doc loans, ARM's etc.

    Correction, yes Crash, no.  Should you be a net buyer or seller, that depends.  I am a net buyer today.  Wage growth is going to drive the RE market,     

  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    For designed rentals, usually as high as they make sense for savvy landlords.  They usually push a little further before the bubble pops and make the not so savvy landlords operate at break even or a loss.  

  • Investor/Realtor · Hoover, AL · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 459 votes
    9y

    Welcome Back @Rich Weese...

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    Thanks Rolanda. It has been awhile!

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    Prices will flat line or possibly decrease slightly when inflationary policies push up the interest rates in the next two years. The crash will result from a specific event or circumstances that develops during that period. What that may be is unknown but chances are it will happen. Inflation always creates collateral damage leading to major corrections.

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    Where are the real estate salespeople, spec builders, flippers and wholesalers? They usually join a thread like this stating the sky is the limit and things will never change, LOL. I wonder what their motivation is for thinking that way? 

  • Northern, CA · Member since 2014 · 674 posts · 444 votes
    9y

    Interesting how some here think that anyone that got on the train the day after them is some uninformed newbie chasing a dream with no thought.  These threads have been coming up a lot lately.  The truth is nobody knows the future, if you feel better selling and sitting on cash, great.  I'm in the middle, I wouldn't even consider buying at retail but I wouldn't in any market, I'm still looking for below market deals and if I find them I will buy.  We are years away from having enough homes in my area, lines for rentals are 100 people deep.  As was said above, banks are also not handing out money to anyone with a pulse and 100% stated loans.  Prices are similar but the details are not.  Real Estate is local.  I always look at investments from a worst case scenario regardless.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Idk if one can paint a broad brush to answer, so some areas they can go higher and some others not so much. When I checked Phoenix metro awhile back...it had more inventory for sale than LA and LA metro had 10 million more residents. I think Phoenix is growing at a faster per capita pace though. Some other areas will have pockets of price growth and surrounded by flat growth. To not answer your question completely...location matters. 

    If we consider the new minimum wage coming for Cali and current interest rates, the floor for a childless couple looks like 250k and rents approx 1800 for two bedroom. This is likely the low moving forward. To get technical, when UCLA forecast regions they factor port and airport traffic numbers as indicators along side many other things. It is a bit of a science to forecast housing accurately we can understand. 

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 22 posts · 30 votes
    9y

    I'm in the middle of reading Irrational Exuberance by Robert Shiller and would highly recommend it. It originally came out right before the dot-com 2000 crash, and was then updated in 2006, and now his third edition was released in 2015, and covers his research on the different reasons for market crashes throughout history. The stories about newspaper articles, general public explanations/psychology on huge short terms run-ups, highs in consumer/investor confidence are eerily parallel to what is happening again right now, and what happened in 2009 (stocks), 2007 (RE), 2000 (stocks), early 90's (RE), 80's, and so forth going back to the 1800's in terms of bubbles bursting. This might not be an all-out bubble like last time but I am personally planning for a decent correction and not buying right now unless a great cashflow investment presents itself.

    The United States is not the only expensive market either, it's happening around the world again in places like Australia, Canada and other countries. Housing has gotten generally unaffordable for most working families. In my opinion all markets are high right now - stocks, bonds, RE. And if one of those others tank or drop significantly, what is the cascading effect on real estate?

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