Snow Removal - Massachusetts

Rental Property Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2013 · 137 posts · 36 votes

I have a few questions on how other multifamily owners handle their snow removal. When hiring services out do you pay a flat rate or by the hour? Does this include both driveways and walks?

I realize I have a few options, 1 would be having one of my tenants do the snow removal for a $50 break on the rent. I am not sure what is customary. Another option would be for me to hire it out to the guy that cuts my lawn. He told me he wanted $50/hr which seems high to do the walks and stairs.

Long story short I am looking to see what others do and what I should expect to pay .

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Mike HurneyPro Member

Real Estate Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 542 votes

12y

@Mike Hoefling Single Family rentals, I have them do it all, Cut grass in the Summer, Shovel snow from driveways and walks.

I never have a Tenant do anything on a Multi unless they've got an Associated Industry Company with Insurance, etc. I contract that out.

BUT I do make sure there are New Shovels each year at each Multi with the address spray painted on them and plenty of Sand and Salt! So if someone HAS to get out, they can and by the time a Contractor is there it's less for them (by the hour).

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Ann Bellamy
Lender · Tyngsboro, MA · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
$50 per hour? In Worcester? Try not to laugh out loud.

Most people charge a flat amount per inches of snow to plow, if they can do it quick, great, if they are slow, you still pay the same amount.

Walks should be the same
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Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
12y
I am in Chicago and our properties are 125 feet deep with a sidewalk along the entire property including a 1.5 story staircase and a 2.5 story staircase.

Last year we paid per occurrence. It was $50 per snowfall over 1 inch - $65 if they had to throw salt too. This year we just paid a $1,200 flat fee for the entire season. The company is licensed/bonded/insured and assumes liability for injury on the premise if the property is not services appropriately
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Mike Hoefling
OP
Rental Property Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2013 · 137 posts · 36 votes
12y
Yea, I thought $50 an hour sounded pretty ridiculous myself. I am thinking somewhere around 50-60 sounds more reasonable.
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George Paiva
Investor · Milford, CT · Member since 2012 · 592 posts · 285 votes
12y
I try to have the tenants remove the snow themselves in some properties where others I don't allow them. I am actually interested in the liabilities going either way.

Here is a snippet of my lease where the tenant is responsible -
"SNOW REMOVAL. The tenant is responsible for snow and ice removal from walks, driveways, steps and any areas where safety should be observed. It is agreed that Tenant shall not use any salt on stoops or walkways. Calcium chloride is recommended instead for de-icing, and is not harmful to the masonry."

And here it is where I inform them not to remove -
"SNOW REMOVAL. The tenant shall not make any attempt to remove any snow from the property’s designated driveway. We will maintain the grounds and remove snow from walks and driveway. In the event of a snow storm/ snow fall, we will make every attempt to clear the premises of snow."

Haven't done a lot of research into this and would be great if someone actually followed up with a lawyer to get the verdict.
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George Paiva
Investor · Milford, CT · Member since 2012 · 592 posts · 285 votes
12y
In my local town it falls to the property owner to remove snow and ice from their sidewalks and property, including fire hydrants within 24hrs. So you can try to get the tenant to take responsibility in the lease but if its not removed within 24hrs expect a letter from the town.
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Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
In RI we contracted someone per removal insured for our multifamily. It is $50 for shoveling I think 150 feet of walkway and two landings (a step each). The plowing is 125 but it is a big loop.

Now I live next to Worcester and our plow guy (plowing only) charges 65 up to 6 inches and then some amount per inch thereafter. The driveway is long and a bit steep. We don't have him shovel. On plowing the best deal is to pay per plow. Shoveling it is a toss up. It is about doing it when it needs to be done. I can't comment on how this will work with this multifamily as it is the first year we have owned it. For Single families they do their own walks.
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Mike HurneyPro Member
Real Estate Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 542 votes
12y
@Mike Hoefling Single Family rentals, I have them do it all, Cut grass in the Summer, Shovel snow from driveways and walks.

I never have a Tenant do anything on a Multi unless they've got an Associated Industry Company with Insurance, etc. I contract that out.

BUT I do make sure there are New Shovels each year at each Multi with the address spray painted on them and plenty of Sand and Salt! So if someone HAS to get out, they can and by the time a Contractor is there it's less for them (by the hour).
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Rob K.
Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y
You could also hire someone for the season for a flat rate. It's a gamble for both of you, but at least you know the price up front.

When I was younger, I knew an old guy that went to Florida every winter. He paid me $300 per year to remove snow when it was two inches or more.
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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Ann Bellamy:
$50 per hour? In Worcester? Try not to laugh out loud.

Most people charge a flat amount per inches of snow to plow, if they can do it quick, great, if they are slow, you still pay the same amount.

Walks should be the same

I am curious , do you think the $ 50 per hour is high or low , I am in Maryland and have 3 plow trucks and 2 loaders , I would laugh at the $50 per hour also , because thats what we were charging in the early 1980"s . A pick up truck gets $ 115 per hour and loaders go $ 150 and up ( governments ,county and state pay $125 for 1 ton trucks )

By the inch doesnt fly in these parts , I wish it did
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Ann Bellamy
Lender · Tyngsboro, MA · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
@Matthew Paul ,

I got the impression that the "guy who mows the lawn" was just a guy with a shovel who would come in and hand shovel the walks, not a service with equipment and insurance.

I pay a flat commercial rate for each of my buildings and that includes salt, sand, removal and coming back multiple times, and even removing and sanding when there is just a thin layer of ice/sleet. So some years I pay far more than $50 per hour, when there is not much snow, other years I get a bargain.

When I pay a flat rate, I don't have to manage the process, because the service makes sure the buildings are well taken care of. I don't get calls from the tenants that they can't get out for work or complaints about slippery driveways. If I had only one building I'd be looking for the best bargain I could get, and a guy with a shovel is cheaper than a service. As such, $50 per hour is very expensive for unskilled labor.
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Bill S.Pro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Mike Hoefling:

I realize I have a few options, 1 would be having one of my tenants do the snow removal for a $50 break on the rent.

No one has spoken to this option. This is a very slippery slope (pun intended). Once you start "paying" (giving them a break in rent) tenants via reduced rent the law may consider them employees. The reason is they get paid whether or not there is work (snow to shovel) which is one of the tests for an employee from the IRS perspective. If they get hurt then you maybe on the hook for workers comp, not to mention employment taxes. If you ever hire tenants to do work, they sign an independent contractor agreement with a defined scope of work, furnish their own tools, and are paid for the work directly (no reduced rent). DO NOT TRADE RENT FOR WORK.
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Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
12y
Originally posted by @Ann Bellamy:
@Matthew Paul ,

I got the impression that the "guy who mows the lawn" was just a guy with a shovel who would come in and hand shovel the walks, not a service with equipment and insurance.

I pay a flat commercial rate for each of my buildings and that includes salt, sand, removal and coming back multiple times, and even removing and sanding when there is just a thin layer of ice/sleet. So some years I pay far more than $50 per hour, when there is not much snow, other years I get a bargain.

When I pay a flat rate, I don't have to manage the process, because the service makes sure the buildings are well taken care of. I don't get calls from the tenants that they can't get out for work or complaints about slippery driveways. If I had only one building I'd be looking for the best bargain I could get, and a guy with a shovel is cheaper than a service. As such, $50 per hour is very expensive for unskilled labor.

In you other post you used the word " plow" that means trucks or equipment . And to give you a perspective " the guy that mows the lawn " That was "me" for 20 years , it has allowed me to buy quite a few properties. Still do some greens industry work ( still great money )
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Ann Bellamy
Lender · Tyngsboro, MA · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
12y
Yes, Matthew, I was differentiating between my perception of what the OP was talking about "the guy with the shovel" and what I personally pay for: The guy with plows and backhoes and myriad other pieces of equipment as well as insurance.

Not denigrating you, simply a difference in scale, costs and services. I still use lots of "guys with lawnmowers, shovels, and paintbrushes" when the situation warrants. And I tip them very well for good service. Good money to be made when you don't have lots of overhead. But if your back is your primary stock in trade, you don't have much to fall back on when stuff happens.
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JERMAINE LUCAS
Investor · Woodbridge, Virginia, landlord · Member since 2010 · 98 posts · 21 votes
12y
Jermaine here

We have had tenants do our snow removal in the past and found that it works for smaller properties but we never never have a tenant take payment out of the rent, we just send them a check at the end of the month.
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Mike Hoefling
OP
Rental Property Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2013 · 137 posts · 36 votes
12y
@Ann Bellamy

@Mike Hurney

Thanks everyone for the information. Currently, I am looking to hire out the snow removal from a professional snow removal company if anyone has any recommendations on who to use in the Worcester, MA area please let me know.
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Troy Sheets
Developer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 902 votes
12y
Mike Hoefling get 3 bids, they can vary quite a bit. Also, ask for their Cert of Ins and make sure they're covered for snow removal/plowing. If their insurance doesn't cover a slip on ice yours will have to... Check out www.sima.org for contractors.
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Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
12y
@Mike Hoefling did you find someone or were you shoveling this last snowfall?
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Mike Hoefling
OP
Rental Property Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2013 · 137 posts · 36 votes
12y
@Colleen F. I did not find anyone yet, I made calls to 2 people and they said they would quote me and I have not heard from them. After the holiday, first thing next week, I will be making a number of calls to secure a snow removal company. If you know someone please let me know and I would be happy to call them.

Mike
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Eric Dubrule
Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2013 · 54 posts · 5 votes
12y
@Mike Hoefling try reaching out to neighboring property owners. Chances are they already have a system in place that you can use. I lucked out this year talking with a neighbor who eventually offered to take care of my 3-family himself. He does it for $40 per storm where a commercial company quoted $65 for a similar service. That said, there is piece of mind that a commercial company gives. Good luck!
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Mike Hoefling
OP
Rental Property Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2013 · 137 posts · 36 votes
12y
Even though this is only, I have another related question for everyone.

I did end up finding a company to do the plowing and snow removal for $60/event. However, one of my tenants now has asked me if he can remove the snow for a $50 break in rent per month. I know some people will say never to have tenants remove snow or complete lawn care so I wanted some opinions.

If I was to have my tenant remove snow for a $50/Month break in rent is this typically only for the "winter months" or is the $50/Month break offered through the term of tenanacy?

Thanks,

Mike
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Dan C.
Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 384 posts · 109 votes
12y
Hi Mike - It's pretty common around here to have a tenant remove the snow. I decide what it is worth to me and offer the discounted rent year round, not just for winter months. This is how other landlords I know handle it as well. If this came up at close to the end of the winter, as we are now, I would tell the tenant we can talk about it later this year so I'm not giving them a discount now and then they leave in October.
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Rob Beland
Investor · Leominster, MA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 589 votes
12y
Hi @Mike Hoefling I found this post and since it's now April and we are out of the snow season I was curious to know how this past winter worked out for you in terms of handling the snow removal at your properties.
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Mike Hoefling
OP
Rental Property Investor · Worcester, MA · Member since 2013 · 137 posts · 36 votes
12y
Rob Beland I ended up starting with a service at $60/plow then switched to having one of my tenants do it for the remainder of the season for a break on the rent. Mike
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Thad McNair
Investor · Fishers, IN · Member since 2014 · 47 posts · 7 votes
11y
@Jer
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Thad McNair
Investor · Fishers, IN · Member since 2014 · 47 posts · 7 votes
11y
Oops. Sorry- please disregard last typo!
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