A lesson learned in court

General Landlording & Rental Properties
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A lesson learned in court

Cal C.
Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

I recently had a court date in Fulton County, GA, probably one of the most tenant friendly jurisdictions in a landlord friendly state. Obviously, that is all relative.

My tenant's lawyer was a few hours late and I was able to witness several eviction (disp.) cases. I won't get into the nitty gritty details of any of those cases, but I had one huge take away. Come prepared.

Have your paperwork in order. Make extra copies for the judge and the opposing side.

Present your case in a coherent and concise way. Stick to the point.

Invariably, the person who was the most prepared won their cases, even when it seemed as though the losing side had valid, but undocumented, arguments.

Fortunately I was prepared, but observing those cases underscored the importance of preparedness.

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Account Closed
Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 218 votes
12y

@Cal C. having the heart.. so very true. This is a business. You have bills to pay and people that work for you or depend on you need that income. Would you go to work every day if your boss stopped paying? Probably not.

While a tenant may have a sob story. Maybe they lost their job because of something out of their control. It stinks for them, but at the same time, if you let them live there, others will be losing their jobs because you won't be able to pay your bills.

In the end, if a customer entered a restaurant and ate a meal at $30 cost each day, then ran out and didn't pay. Would you let them keep eating for free each day?

$30/day is about $900/month rent. Think about it!

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  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks for the info, Cal. Were there any major surprises in any case? The nitty gritty would probably be very informative.

    0Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    I used to have a 20 unit apartment building and dealt with Fulton county all the time.

    The tenant or their attorneys have a simple way they lose. They tend to argue with the judge and go on and on trying to prove their case. A lot of your chances has to do with if your case is heard early in the day or you are the last ones out.

    Toward the end of the day the judge's ability to hear BS or other crap has grown a very short fuse. They are chipper and happy in the morning and at the end of the day are ready to bite your head off! lol I would only answer the judge and give the paperwork. The tenant or their attorney would get animated. They kept talking and would dig themselves a big hole. I didn't have to do anything but remain silent.

    The judge would rule in my favor. How you present and court does carry weight along with your supporting documentation. Even if tenants have documentation their credibility comes into question when the document appears altered or change etc. The judge see this stuff everyday yet the tenants and even slum landlords think they can get one over on the judge.

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  • Kevin Perk
    Rental Property Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2011 · 111 posts · 40 votes
    12y

    Joel,

    It is interesting to watch.

    Showing up on time, dressing well, speaking well, being respectful and of course like you said being prepared with copies of paperwork and knowing the answers to the questions that will likely be asked goes a long, long way.

    Kevin

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 218 votes
    12y

    @Cal C. I encourage all those wanting to be a landlord to go and attend eviction court at least once. They should learn from that experience.

    It is usually required that a copy goes to the court and to the opposing side. So you should be prepared with documented proof. Even if just a spreadsheet detailing a communication log or payment schedules. Have a copy to give the judge and the opposing side.

    Also, the side that talks less, and sticks to just answering with facts will win. If you give a story and point fingers with accusations.. YOU WILL LOSE!

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  • Cal C.
    OP
    Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Aly W. Three quick ones. There were more but these are the ones I remember most clearly.

    1. Commercial tenant had damage from a skylight which went unrepaired for some time. Landlord showed that the tenant had not paid rent. Tenant claimed that she had tens of thousands of dollars of damages to her goods, but could not substantiate claims. Landlord won.

    2. Residential tenant stopped paying rent when landlord refused to make agreed upon repairs. Tenant made the repairs and showed documentation. Landlord rambled a bit (not the original landlord), accused the tenant of making claims beyond the scope of the special stipulations in the lease. Landlord could not document. Tenant won.

    3. Landlord claimed tenant had not paid rent and was violating the lease by having an unauthorized occupants and by creating disturbances whereby the cops were called to the property on several occasions. Tenant argued that if one of the unauthorized occupants weren't there then nobody would be capable of caring for her great-granddaughter (authorized tenant). Tenant stopped paying rent because of the notices about repeated lease violations, however, did not keep the rent money. Landlord was unable to document the creating disturbances violations, but won the case due to being able document unauthorized occupant violations and not paying rent. Landlord won.

    0Reply
  • Cal C.
    OP
    Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Joel Owens

    @Kevin Perk

    @Ryan Steele

    All good suggestions, especially the one about prospective landlords. Some of the things you see in the court are heart-breaking but you have to understand you are running a business and not a charity. If you are a prospective landlord attending disp. court you may realize that you don't have the heart to be a landlord.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 218 votes
    12y

    @Cal C. having the heart.. so very true. This is a business. You have bills to pay and people that work for you or depend on you need that income. Would you go to work every day if your boss stopped paying? Probably not.

    While a tenant may have a sob story. Maybe they lost their job because of something out of their control. It stinks for them, but at the same time, if you let them live there, others will be losing their jobs because you won't be able to pay your bills.

    In the end, if a customer entered a restaurant and ate a meal at $30 cost each day, then ran out and didn't pay. Would you let them keep eating for free each day?

    $30/day is about $900/month rent. Think about it!

    3Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Kevin Perk

    Dress well is good suggestion. At one LL/Tenant hearing the LL came in a white T-shirt. The judge threw him out of court before he could present his case, saying "drug dealers wear white T-Shirts" and he would not allow that in his court room.

    1Reply
  • Cal C.
    OP
    Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Aly W.

    Just remembered one other one. Landlord was evicting a tenant after a year of a tenant not paying rent. Judge was incredulous about the length of time before the eviction was started. Landlord claimed that tenant had said several times that they would have the money. Landlord stated he has several properties and could wait. Tenant claimed that he had been paying rent the for most of the time, but he had no receipts to prove payment. Judge admonished tenant to obtain receipts in the future. Landlord won the case. Tenant was very upset and was almost thrown in jail for contempt of court.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    The mistake I see tenants make in my courts is that they are there on principal of being wronged, with no understanding of the law and really believe they can represent themselves. You can only respond to the complaint. The judges in my courts don't allow any commentary or reading of statements that do not address the case at hand. It's hard to watch because some of those tenants may well have prevailed had they understood how court works or had representation.

    The mistake I see landlords make (and their inexperienced attorneys) is trying to charge for late fees and past due rent prior to the quit or pay or termination notices. The judges I've seen in my court will basically ignore 6 months of past due late fees and rent if you don't show documentation of timely late notices, collection attempts and quit or pays.. A lot of landlords let tenants go late and stay behind for months before starting the eviction. The judges will allow charges as part of the judgment amount only after the date on which valid collection and eviction attempts were made, and you have to have documentation to prove it. It was very eye-opening. It was harsh and I have no idea if any LLs have ever challenged this. In, the cases I saw the LL accepted the reduced judgment amounts.

    1Reply
  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks @Cal C., very informative. My husband and I have rentals in 2 states, NJ and FL. In NJ, if you own the properties in an LLC (we do), only an attorney can represent you in court, so I never saw the proceedings for the 2 evictions we had. In both cases of non payment, we won.

    We are evicting a tenant in FL now for non payment. Our lease includes late fees and court costs as "additional rent". It didn't always, and our last eviction filing did not result in late fees being awarded. An attorney had written that lease - we found a new attorney.

    K. Marie, you are exactly right. Every tenant that has not paid rent and been served the Pay or Quit, or made it to eviction court, has that attitude. They truly believe the landlord should support them until they can pay. They are shocked and angry when they learn that's not the case, and the rental unit will reflect that when they finally leave.

    A friend had an inexperienced attorney handle an eviction for them. It took nearly 4 months after they filed, which was already after a couple of months with no rent. It's critical to use an attorney who specializes in landlord/tenant law, not divorce, car accidents, or personal injury. That's the mistake I see with landlords - not filing an immediate Pay or Quit, and using a One Size Fits All attorney.

    2Reply
  • Cal C.
    OP
    Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    List of suggestions.

    1) Be familiar with the eviction process

    2) Observe Disp. court prior to even filing

    3) Follow proper eviction procedures for your jurisdiction and do not request more than you can reasonably expect.

    4) Double and triple check court time and location.

    5) Make required copies for all paperwork you are going to give to the judge. This includes pictures, receipts, late notices and any other communication with tenant.

    6) Dress nicely.

    7) Be early

    8) Be respectful of everyone. Say your honor to the judge and mr or mrs/ms to the opposing side.

    9) Be clear and concise when presenting your case.

    10) Answer questions as briefly as possible

    11) Stay on point.

    This is meant as a beginning please point out the things I've missed.

    1Reply
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    "using a One Size Fits All attorney"

    YES and I will add to that " Using a one size fits all broker/agent "

    I see investors who have had an agent for years they dealt with for houses and now they want to invest in commercial or large apartment buildings. Their residential agent has no clue how to handle such transactions or the knowledge required to evaluate a deal.

    Get a SPECIALIST and not a GENERALIST. They will save you money and time with the expert skills that they have and keep you from making disastrous mistakes that a generalist might miss. It's not that the generalist isn't trying. They just do not have the in depth experience and track record of a specialist.

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    1Reply
  • Kevin Perk
    Rental Property Investor · Memphis, TN · Member since 2011 · 111 posts · 40 votes
    12y

    @David Krulac

    I will have to put "wears white t-shirt" on the tenant screening checklist. :)

    0Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Kevin Perk

    as an under garment OK

    as an outer garment NOT OK

    And they say there are no fashion police?

    0Reply
  • Bobby Beard
    Real Estate Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2012 · 265 posts · 58 votes
    12y
    How do you document unauthorized occupants?
    0Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Bobby Beard

    Its difficult especially in the case of boy friend/girls friends. When is a guest not a guest and now an occupant. Some criteria might be are they receiving mail there, or do they have their own apt/house?

    There should be a clause in your lease saying that only the people signing the lease and children identified by name are authorized to live there and any body else "must have the express written permission from the owner".

    Obvious exceptions would be birth of new child or adoption/foster care.

    1Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Bobby Beard:
    How do you document unauthorized occupants?

    That would be an interesting topic for discussion

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Real Estate Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 218 votes
    12y

    I have a specific section in my leases stating that only those named in the lease may occupy the property for more than 7 days (this allows someone to visit on vacation). They do need specific permission from me, along with another application fee in order to have someone else there. I require they be added to the lease, and I run my checks on them.

    Imagine if that person has 4 evictions or better yet has a history of crime or restraining orders, domestic violence and damage to property..

    Getting Mail there is an easy proof for you in court to show someone else is living there.

    0Reply
  • Bobby Beard
    Real Estate Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2012 · 265 posts · 58 votes
    12y

    how do you prove they get mail there? That's another one hard to prove..

    0Reply
  • Bobby Beard
    Real Estate Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2012 · 265 posts · 58 votes
    12y
    Matthew Paul yes it would. I will start it in the Q and A. Let's see where it goes.
    0Reply
  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Bobby Beard

    Ask the mailman

    or around here the mailman requires that the people's name, at least their last name must appear on the mailbox, if their name is not on the mailbox, they won't deliver the mail. So name on mailbox and photo thereof is evidence.

    0Reply
  • Bobby Beard
    Real Estate Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2012 · 265 posts · 58 votes
    12y

    not here @David Krulac they deliver anything around here. But great idea about asking mailman.

    0Reply
  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Bobby Beard asking the mailman might help you know, but will not help in court. Offering the statement of a party not testifying to prove the truth of the statement is called hearsay and is not admissable in court. Now there is no privacy right in garbage. If you find a letter to them in the garbage you can legally take it and use it as an exhibit after laying foundation.

    1Reply
  • Bobby Beard
    Real Estate Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2012 · 265 posts · 58 votes
    12y

    hahahaha @Jerry W. I love it!!!

    0Reply
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