PM maintenance team overcharging hours?
Investor · SC · Member since 2023 · 17 posts · 8 votes
PM maintenance team overcharging hours?
Most Popular Reply
Grace GudenkaufPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Tucson AZ · Member since 2023 · 35 posts · 18 votesQuote from @Account Closed:
Melanie, I appreciate the input. I agree and we’ve been weighing the possibility of managing the property ourselves. If we could use the PM solely for sourcing tenants, payment processing, and any eviction issues, then I think we’d be comfortable acting as the primary point for maintenance.
Joe, I recommend self-managing. You can easily learn to source tenants yourself. If needed pay for someone to show the property. There are plenty of free payment processors like Baselane and Innago. I use TenantCloud for around 30 properties and it's $50 per month. For eviction issues just hire an attorney. For majority of people I actually think self-management is the best route. We pay a LOT of money for a property, and management is the key to ensuring it's success. I think it's good for owner's to be a little bit hands on in the management until they build the right systems and process to be more passive, or better yet hire an internal manager yourself once your portfolio gets to the right size.
29 Replies
- 2yMichael SmytheBusiness MemberReal Estate Agent · Metro Detroit · Member since 2023 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Account Closed maintenance is the biggest challenge in the PMC industry.
Never fast enough for the tenants, or cheap enough for the owners.
Time = money, so most PMC's charge for drive time or they charge a minimum trip fee.
Another challenge is figuring out what tenants report for maintenance issues. It's not easy to get them to explain the problem, so we can send the right person with the right tools and parts. The tenants just always say, "send someone to figure it out". That costs an owner more if we send a handyman and bill for their time, but a licensed electrician is needed to fix the problem and the owner gets billed for both.
Three hours to diagnose a leaking faucet sprayer seems slightly excessive. The only choices being replacing the whole faucet/sprayer unit or finding out if parts readily available to fix just the sprayer. They might have searched online to see what parts Lowe's had available and that is NOT always easy. Often, it's just cheaper to replace than try to repair.
There should be only one drive-time charge and one trip charge to Lowes as both these maintenance issues should have been handled by the same handyman.
Logical Property Management4.9453 Reviews - Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes2y
My PM uses licensed/insured completely seperate vendors for repairs so it’s easy to call those companies as an individual and see you are paying less through them because of their volume. The has never been a trip charge unless you choose not to do a repair.
I don’t think I’ve ever been charged more than 1 hour of labor for anything short of a complete hvac unit replacement. Even a water heater replacement is usually listed as 1 hour, MAYBE 1.5 if there was water damage. But, a faucet replacement usually runs me about $200. So if they’re charging about $200 with the faucet and labor it doesn’t really matter how they break it down.
Honestly, if you don’t trust them or like the way they are communicating I’d interview a couple more PM’s in the area. Questions like in this neighborhood what kind of rent would you suggest for this size house and beds/baths? (Don’t give the address where they can see what you’re currently charge and shoot for the same or more to win you over.). What’s an “average” repair for replacing a toilet, a water heater, a faucet. And what’s the turn around time. And finally what do they charge for so you can decide if the difference in service/rent/repairs are worth the difference in fees/costs.
Good luck.
- 2yMelanie P.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 922 votes
I wouldn't be surprised that it takes them 3 hours or that they round up to 3 hours. Neither answer would surprise me. Be thankful they didn't call a plumber about the sink issue.
Do you really need them? What's the contract say about terminating? Regardless of what it says did you pitch such a fit about the hours that they might let you leave if you offered to go?
You're pretty in the weeds; may as well do it all yourself. You would have been slower on the dispatch and one handyman could have fixed both issues in one trip.
- Investor · SC · Member since 2023 · 17 posts · 8 votes2y
Melanie, I appreciate the input. I agree and we’ve been weighing the possibility of managing the property ourselves. If we could use the PM solely for sourcing tenants, payment processing, and any eviction issues, then I think we’d be comfortable acting as the primary point for maintenance.
- 2yRicardo R.Pro MemberProperty Manager · Michigan Ctr, MI · Member since 2016 · 661 posts · 581 votes
@Account Closed it's really completely up to them. But ask yourself.... if you called someone... anyone... to get up and go change your doorbell... wouldn't you expect them to bill you for their time starting from when they had to get up from doing what they were doing to going back to doing what they were doing before you asked for that help? --- What if it was the other way around and someone one called you to change their doorbell?.... what is your time worth?
I can tell you this... we run a PM company, not a general contacting company, nor a maintenance company --- if the owner requests that we (not vendor) do things like change a door bell... you better believe that EVERYTHING including the sourcing and aquisition of the door to the clean up and time to do all of this... will be factored into the price... period; we value our time. But you always have the option of chaning it or doing it yourself.
- Investor · SC · Member since 2023 · 17 posts · 8 votes2y
Ricardo, no argument here. I value my time and even told my PM contact that I understand there’s a premium to this service. I’m just asking if drive time is standard, since the rate of $120/hour to change a doorbell already seems like they’ve factored in more than the skill it takes to do the job. And 3 hours feels like a long time to complete it. I appreciate the perspective!
- Accountant · Bryn Mawr, PA · Member since 2023 · 409 posts · 321 votes2y
Eliminate doorbells.....
All faucets should be consistent and you will carry them in stock when you have scale.
Depending on the class of this property get rid of that sprayer too just close off the 4th hole on the sink with cover plate.
Problem solved for under $5 please send invoice haha
- 2yRicardo R.Pro MemberProperty Manager · Michigan Ctr, MI · Member since 2016 · 661 posts · 581 votes
@Account Closed it just depends, like I said all vendors and PMC are different, the good ones, which are buisness savvy and coincidentally the ones you ultimately want to manage your unit, usually do (who would want someone that is not buisness savvy managing their unit) -- now some will be fully trasparent and itemize it and others will just roll it into your install. If you're saying they charged $360 to change a doorbell, which includes 1) sourcing it; 2) trip to source to aquire it; 3) aquisition of it and any other materials needed for install, screws, elect. caps, etc.; 4) trip to your rental for install; 5) un-installing the current doorbell; 6) installing the new door bell and wiring it; 7) securing your rental upon exit, clean up and disposal of the old doorbell; 8) trip back to their office --- Umm... Idk... I haven't even factored Tenant coordination if the unit was occupied or things like gas or the time they spend interacting with you about the doorbell, etc...... I get you're point... YOU would certainly do it for much cheaper, likely less that $60 (cost of doorbell) if YOU did it... you would also do it cheeper if you did your own dental work.... BUT you want someone else to do it, now $360 might be a bit steep but it's definetely not far from the mark... heck... an electrician would likely charge similar or more... why wouldn't you just hire an electrician to do it for you instead?... oh yeah... because they would be similar or more in price, wouldn't prioritze such a small job and wouldn't include 1) coordinating with your tenant or 2) going to grab the key and locking up or 3) wouldn't install it without you there.... etc. etc. etc.
The mere fact that someone is EVEN willing to take on such a small task in the first place -- there is value in that and of course they are only going to do it, if you make it worth it to them. Aside from all of this, then why not just buy a plug in wireless doorbell?????
- Investor · SC · Member since 2023 · 17 posts · 8 votes2y
Agree on all fronts. To be clear, they also charged for parts, fuel, and service fee. So $360 was just the time/labor expense. And it’s less about the expense and more about the hours claimed. If they charged $200/hour but only logged 2 hours, I would say “wow, that’s a steep hourly rate,” but wouldn’t feel like they were dishonest. I guess it’s more of an ethical question.
- 2yRicardo R.Pro MemberProperty Manager · Michigan Ctr, MI · Member since 2016 · 661 posts · 581 votes
@Account Closed I see your point... well just reach out to them and let them know that. They will likely clarify as to how or why it's that much, and then it may make sense or make no sense at all, but at the very least just by you doint that, it puts them on notice. So... I cerntainly wouldn't want you to expect time and labor and covenience for free or at a discount but on the same note I wouldn't want you to get price gouged, lied to and taken advantage of either. Can you share what the total cost of the doorbell was?
- 2yNed J.Pro MemberInvestor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Wait.... so they charged you 3 hrs total to do both jobs....or 3 hrs for each one of the jobs, so a total of 6 hrs labor?
Three hrs labor for both.... I can see that...time to inspected/diagnose issue, get parts, and labor to install.. 3 hrs total is reasonable....
If it was 3 hrs for each...... you got screwed. That's not 6 hr of labor/time there no matter how you want to itemize it out to include drive time etc
- 2yMelanie P.Pro MemberRental Property Investor · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 922 votes
Quote from @Account Closed:
Melanie, I appreciate the input. I agree and we’ve been weighing the possibility of managing the property ourselves. If we could use the PM solely for sourcing tenants, payment processing, and any eviction issues, then I think we’d be comfortable acting as the primary point for maintenance.
Neither sourcing tenants nor payment processing are things you need a PM to do. Check out TenantTurner. Many different options for receiving payment including collecting post dated checks when they sign their lease.
- Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
I own a single family rental in SC, just south of Charlotte, NC. Our property management company is based in central Charlotte, about 30 minutes north. My tenants recently submitted two separate maintenance requests to replace the doorbell and replace the kitchen faucet sprayer head (just the head). Anyone who’s performed these tasks knows each one takes about 5 minutes. And our property is 5 minutes from Lowe’s, so parts aren’t an issue.
The PM’s maintenance team charged 3 hours for each separate job, stating that they include drive time from their office. When I asked about the job times, they agreed to reduce the doorbell charge but held firm on 3 hours for the faucet because they claimed it took time to troubleshoot.
So I have three questions: 1) is it standard to charge owners for drive time from the prior job site or office; 2) am I crazy to think these are egregious overcharges; and 3) what actions can I take beyond requesting that they review and lower the charges?
As a property manager, I need more information:
How much did they actually charge you? (As cars cost money to run, and 30 minutes out of the way, is 30 minutes back out of the way, which is an hour in just driving to the job time)
Did the jobs actually only take 3 hours or did it take 4 or 5 and they only charging for 3 as billable hours? (Simple jobs can sometimes not be simple, as I've been trapped at Home Depot for hours looking for just one.... stupid.... part....)
2) you might be crazy as we don't know how much they charged you. Was is 25 an hour or 125 an hour?
3) answer the above and we can discuss next steps
L. Thomas - Investor · SC · Member since 2023 · 17 posts · 8 votes2y
Of course! $112/hr x 3hrs = $336 labor. Plus $50 parts and $5 fuel surcharge. Per job. Both jobs were about the same with slight variability in parts. So ~$390 to change the sprayer head on a faucet. And same to change a doorbell. Billable hours felt very high for both jobs, especially given how close the property is to Lowe’s. But would love any additional feedback!
- Investor · SC · Member since 2023 · 17 posts · 8 votes2y
Quote from @Ricardo R.:
@Account Closed I see your point... well just reach out to them and let them know that. They will likely clarify as to how or why it's that much, and then it may make sense or make no sense at all, but at the very least just by you doint that, it puts them on notice. So... I cerntainly wouldn't want you to expect time and labor and covenience for free or at a discount but on the same note I wouldn't want you to get price gouged, lied to and taken advantage of either. Can you share what the total cost of the doorbell was?
$112/hr x 3hrs = $336 labor. Plus $50 parts and $5 fuel surcharge. Per job. Both jobs were about the same with slight variability in parts. So ~$390 to change the sprayer head on a faucet. And same to change a doorbell.
- 2yRicardo R.Pro MemberProperty Manager · Michigan Ctr, MI · Member since 2016 · 661 posts · 581 votes
@Account Closed ok thank you for sharing... I will say this... they definetely did not overcharge you for the sprayer; they may have even undercharged you for that one, depending on what they had to do. If it's $390 for a doorbell change, wired, all in... ummm... might be on the high-end but it's def. not 'gouging' and def. not unreasonable.... sorry I know it's not what you wanted to hear, again I encourage you to hire those services yourself and you will quickly realize that the trades will charge you the same or likely more, without providing you all the 'extras' like contacting your tenant, or accessing your property on their own without you present and then locking up, posting it to your property account ledger, etc. etc. --- if they even take the small job at all. I hope this helps, thank you so much for sharing.
- Investor · SC · Member since 2023 · 17 posts · 8 votes2y
Quote from @Ricardo R.:
@Account Closed ok thank you for sharing... I will say this... they definetely did not overcharge you for the sprayer; they may have even undercharged you for that one, depending on what they had to do. If it's $390 for a doorbell change, wired, all in... ummm... might be on the high-end but it's def. not 'gouging' and def. not unreasonable.... sorry I know it's not what you wanted to hear, again I encourage you to hire those services yourself and you will quickly realize that the trades will charge you the same or likely more, without providing you all the 'extras' like contacting your tenant, or accessing your property on their own without you present and then locking up, posting it to your property account ledger, etc. etc. --- if they even take the small job at all. I hope this helps, thank you so much for sharing.
On the contrary, actually somewhat relieved to have this perspective. I’m obviously always comparing it to performing the job myself, so happy to have the PM point of view. Doesn’t make the expense hurt any less, but feel slightly better about the PM partnership. Appreciate the engagement!
- 2yRicardo R.Pro MemberProperty Manager · Michigan Ctr, MI · Member since 2016 · 661 posts · 581 votes
@Account Closed ok great... and thank you for the kind words. Yeah, I think you're okay as long as you focus on 'Are they doing a good job when they carry out maintenance?' i.e. are they doing what they say they're going to do, are they actually doing somewhat reasonable quality work, etc. etc.... then it's really a non-issue.... are you going to overpay? ... Yes!... but then again you will ALWAYS overpay when you compare it to doing it yourself. I run a management company and I also own bigger properties further away in which I hire PMC's to run them (too far away) ... There are times, when my I feel like my PMC overcharges me for maintenance too... BUT... they do an okay job, and I'd rather over pay (within reason) just for the 'ease' of not having to do it myself (even if all i had to do was oversee an independent contractor) and have them do all the coordinations and post the costs to my ledger, etc. etc. etc. .... I know if I hired it myself I may (or may not) save a few bucks ($50 or $75 or so) but I would have to get 'involved' and would have to do 'things' --- so no.... I don't mind 'over paying' (within reason) for this convenience - when you pay your PMC to carry out these issues what you really have are -- a property manager, a personal assistant and a maintenance contractor all wrapped into one nice and neat little service.... so yeah.. I don't mind overpaying... especially when I know a contractor would probably charge me a smiliar price and probably double if they had to do the exact same things my PMC will do. --- You're right it is a unique perspective.... I have the unique perspective of owning and runnning a PMC myself, hiring and being a customer of other PMC's for properties I own and having the experience of starting as a small one unit landlord to now multiple properties of various sizes and classes.
- Lender · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 899 votes2y
@Account Closed- thanks ...PM firms will factor in drive times if they are close to property ..if you arent satisfied with their responses - shop for a new PM firm and if you do - maybe ask this exact scenario to them and see what they reply with
- Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
I own a single family rental in SC, just south of Charlotte, NC. Our property management company is based in central Charlotte, about 30 minutes north. My tenants recently submitted two separate maintenance requests to replace the doorbell and replace the kitchen faucet sprayer head (just the head). Anyone who’s performed these tasks knows each one takes about 5 minutes. And our property is 5 minutes from Lowe’s, so parts aren’t an issue.
The PM’s maintenance team charged 3 hours for each separate job, stating that they include drive time from their office. When I asked about the job times, they agreed to reduce the doorbell charge but held firm on 3 hours for the faucet because they claimed it took time to troubleshoot.
So I have three questions: 1) is it standard to charge owners for drive time from the prior job site or office; 2) am I crazy to think these are egregious overcharges; and 3) what actions can I take beyond requesting that they review and lower the charges?
In NYC, you would had been charged around $100-$150 plus supplies depending on where, gas, tolls, parking (yes this is a thing in NYC) for both. The PM is raping you. The doorbell may be $10 bucks, maybe another 10 bucks for the sprayer attachment. - 2yGrace GudenkaufPro MemberRental Property Investor · Tucson AZ · Member since 2023 · 35 posts · 18 votes
Quote from @Account Closed:
Melanie, I appreciate the input. I agree and we’ve been weighing the possibility of managing the property ourselves. If we could use the PM solely for sourcing tenants, payment processing, and any eviction issues, then I think we’d be comfortable acting as the primary point for maintenance.
Joe, I recommend self-managing. You can easily learn to source tenants yourself. If needed pay for someone to show the property. There are plenty of free payment processors like Baselane and Innago. I use TenantCloud for around 30 properties and it's $50 per month. For eviction issues just hire an attorney. For majority of people I actually think self-management is the best route. We pay a LOT of money for a property, and management is the key to ensuring it's success. I think it's good for owner's to be a little bit hands on in the management until they build the right systems and process to be more passive, or better yet hire an internal manager yourself once your portfolio gets to the right size.
- Member since 2023 · 111 posts · 70 votes2y
Quote from @Account Closed:
Of course! $112/hr x 3hrs = $336 labor. Plus $50 parts and $5 fuel surcharge. Per job. Both jobs were about the same with slight variability in parts. So ~$390 to change the sprayer head on a faucet. And same to change a doorbell. Billable hours felt very high for both jobs, especially given how close the property is to Lowe’s. But would love any additional feedback!
Anything under $125 an hour is normal.
It probably took them 1-2 hours to troubleshoot and hardware store trips.
Its a bit more than I like to pay, but I usually find handy-people and have them work alongside the management companies to keep costs down even lower.
But its pretty standard what they charged you.
Welcome to Landlording.
L. Thomas
- 2yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Account Closed regular doorbell? Don't use a wired one. I would think they are overcharging but don't know your area. Yes they charge drive time. If you know what the repair is one of the ways to save is use a local handy person and/or ship the part ahead of time. That way you know what it is being repaired with. However, alot depends on your PM contract.
- 2yBonnie LowPro MemberLender · Asheville, NC · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Quote :
Quote from :
Melanie, I appreciate the input. I agree and we’ve been weighing the possibility of managing the property ourselves. If we could use the PM solely for sourcing tenants, payment processing, and any eviction issues, then I think we’d be comfortable acting as the primary point for maintenance.
Joe, I recommend self-managing. You can easily learn to source tenants yourself. If needed pay for someone to show the property. There are plenty of free payment processors like Baselane and Innago. I use TenantCloud for around 30 properties and it's $50 per month. For eviction issues just hire an attorney. For majority of people I actually think self-management is the best route. We pay a LOT of money for a property, and management is the key to ensuring it's success. I think it's good for owner's to be a little bit hands on in the management until they build the right systems and process to be more passive, or better yet hire an internal manager yourself once your portfolio gets to the right size.
I second this! We've gone the full property manager route and didn't regret it because we've been lucky enough to have decent PM companies; however, we have found we can do this ourselves and it isn't time consuming or difficult. The part that's hardest for me with remote properties is showing the units, but you'll find that you can pay someone to either handle the tenant acquisition process (about $250). Sometimes the PM company or even your Realtor will be willing to do it for you for a fee. Other than the showings (which are batched on a certain day/time), the rest I'm able to do myself. I use Baselane for most tenant-related features including tenant vetting, developing the lease, collecting deposits, collecting rents and for all my bookkeeping related features. I DO outsource maintenance. The hardest part about this is initially establishing the relationships with your handyperson and other trades like plumbers so they can be your go-to source when you call. Arguably, a PM company is going to have these trades available at a cheaper rate (theoretically) due to scale, but the PM company is also probably going to mark it up, so it ends up costing about the same. It just comes down to how much of this you want to do yourself vs. outsourcing. But I agree with Grace that self-management is totally do-able and you can decide how much or how little of it you want to do yourself.
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