How would you landlords handle this?

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How would you landlords handle this?

Diane Menke
Contractor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2008 · 183 posts · 17 votes

I have a funny tenant story. I need you guys to tell me how you would deal with it since its an example of the little expenses that can eat up your profits.

My tenants were complaining loudly and often that their house was cold. Heat was working but it "felt cold" on the 1st floor. This is a large 3 story house they are renting short term. They are responsible for all utilities. The gas company just sent them their first bill. Then I got the call about the rooms being cold.

OK then they tell the insurance company who is paying us about us having a cold house.

All this happens over the holidays when the office is on short hours. So they didn't get a return call from me until I heard about it from the insurance company. I confirmed that the heater was working it just felt cold. OK I will send my HVAC guy there to check it.

HVAC guy just called me to let me know they had the intake vents covered with plastic and the thermostat set at 60 on the 1st floor. This house has 1 zone which we would never install now but thats how we bought the house. So HVAC guy told her to take the plastic off and to set the temp higher or wear a sweater.

I told him be sure to bill me so I can prove the system has been OK'd. I want him to be paid for his time of course.

Do I pass this bill onto the tenant? This was a completely bogus (and annoying) complaint so I feel justified. But I know it would be bad for "customer relations".

How do you all deal with this sort of thing? I would love to set up policies for my tenants where they will help me take care of true problems like a leak, but not waste my time and money with this sort of silliness. Siliness I want THEM to pay for.

Thanks
Diane

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  • Mark N.A
    Real Estate Investor · North Carolina · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 483 votes
    17y

    For me, this is where LLing goes from 'science' to 'art'. I've certainly had situations similar to yours.

    Generally, I factor in things like are these good tenants I want to keep long-term? How long have they been with me already? Was this a badly negligent act or just plain stupidness? When is their lease up? How easy would it be to replace these tenants?

    What I usually try and do is screen the problem over the phone. Plumbing is an easy example. If there's a clog I tell them I'll be happy to send a plumber over and if it's tree roots or a bad pipe I'll cover it. However, if it's something they flushed down I will bill them for it.

    However, when it's more of a gray area, I really just go by my gut. And, of course, I have regretted being nice more than once.

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  • Diane Menke
    OP
    Contractor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2008 · 183 posts · 17 votes
    17y

    Whats the saying? That no good deed goes unpunished?

    No I screened this one and I told them and the insurance folks exactly what the HVAC guy told them. I probably should have warned them that if the HVAC call ended up being BS I would bill them. But hey this is a stupid person here.

    They are short term only until March. The rent is high and would cover it. However, I want to put this into the pool of experience so I can put a clear policy into all our leases. I want to remove me and my opinions from the dealings with tenans. I would like to end up with a smooth system of proceedures.

    Suggestions for tenant systems creation appreciated.

    Thanks
    Diane

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  • Account Closed
    Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    Diane,

    Every property we have has a "book". I put it in quotes because it is stored in our computers but we make sure a printed copy is given to the tenant when they move in and it is updated whenever any repair or maintenance item is addressed.

    In it we cover things like, "The thermostat on the first floor controls the whole house." This becomes their bible as it relates to the home. It has the locations, with pictures, of all shutoff valves, HVAC registers, filters - AND how to change them, etc. If they have a question about the house, 99% of the time the answer is in the book.

    When something "new" happens like you've described, we add to the book. "The thermostat on the first floor controls the whole house. Do not cover the HVAC intake registers with plastic or obstruct them. They must function correctly for the HVAC system to function correctly."

    Also, make sure your lease includes wording allowing you to bill them for repairs and maintenance issues they cause. Whether you enforce it in a case like this is a judgment call. Sometimes the sheer entertainment value of something like this is worth far more than the HVAC service call. :cool:

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  • Michael Rossi
    Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    Taz,

    I like that "book" idea! I will consider that for my rentals (seriously).

    Now, if the tenants are just smart enough to remember where the book is! Do you staple it to their forehead?

    Diane,

    I would send the tenant a bill for the HVAC visit. They won't pay it. Then, I would deduct it from their security deposit when they leave. It's impossible to include every stupid thing tenants do in a lease. My lease is 4 pages. A friend of mine has a 12 page lease and is still adding to it!!! UGH!

    Mike

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  • Timothy W.
    Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    "OK then they tell the insurance company who is paying us about us having a cold house. "

    Sounds like you have an Additional Living Expenses tenant from a claim. Contact the insurance adjuster who's handling the A.L.E. payments. Explain to them the situation, how their insured caused expense, and request a supplement payment. I don't know if you'd get it and I would be very sweet and gentle with the adjuster in pursuing it. You can try telling them that there was nothing wrong with the systems and the expense of the HVAC guy was part of acclimating the insured to their new temporary housing much the same as having a moving company transporting their personal effects during a loss (also covered under A.L.E.). It's worth a shot but be nice with the adjuster and you'll probably get a better response.

    If they don't do it....you can file a liability claim against the tenant's insurance if you decide you don't want any more business from that company.... ;-)

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  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Diane Menke:
    Whats the saying? That no good deed goes unpunished?


    My father's favorite quote :D

    I have a similar issue with my current tenant in regards to extermination. She has been in my rental for 4 months, and the lease states that if a tenant causes a pest condition, they pay for exterminating. She has been complaining about roaches. She keeps the house immaculate, so I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, because it is a row house and perhaps the neighbors aren't so clean. I suspect she brought the roaches with her, unknowingly, in her packing boxes or furniture.

    The exterminator went out there twice, and only saw one dead baby roach (ok, the parents must be somewhere) and no other signs. No droppings, no egg cases, no live bugs. I agreed to pay for the first treatment because she is a good tenant. She's on Section 8 for the next year but I don't want her leaving after that or complaining to Section 8.

    I guess as Nc Mark implies, you have to look at the bigger picture. Not worth losing a good tenant or creating bad feelings over certain things. I'm a new landlord so maybe I'll also regret being nice.

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  • Diane Menke
    OP
    Contractor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2008 · 183 posts · 17 votes
    17y

    Taz I like the book idea too. Thats smart. We spend so much time looking at and working on houses, I forget most people do not have the same interest or skills for it.

    We do a similar book for our construction projects. Drawings, permits, product spec's, special notes and contact info all go into the book. We have a copy for the jobsite/crew to use and one in the office. So when someone has a question about a facet of the project, we are all looking at the same thing when we figure it out. Later we file the office copy with the project files.

    I will go ahead and send them the bill.

    Thanks everyone. I think getting a group wide standard in place might be a great thing for these issues. Our remodeling peers help each other develop similar management systems and its a huge help. Someone usually has a good answer already if you ask.

    Diane

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  • Account Closed
    Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    Yeah, the book turned out to be a great thing for us. We talk the talk about transparency and we walk it too.

    When we get appraisals or sell, the inspections are a breeze because EVERYTHING is right there. Full descriptions of repairs, damages, improvements, etc. All with copies of the receipts. Appraisers love us because we make it easy for them to find the defects and how we dealt with them.

    It is just one of the ways we reduce the risk of someone renting or buying from us and therefore get higher rents, better sales prices, faster closings, easier dealings with lenders. It also makes us younger, sexier and money falls from the sky as we walk along.

    Okay, I am exaggerating with that last part. :D

    But, in all seriousness, it is just one of the ways we set ourselves apart in our markets and it pays off many times over.

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  • Steve Londeau
    Wholesaler · Columbiaville, MI · Member since 2008 · 46 posts · 1 vote
    17y

    Really like that "book" idea as well! I'm going to implement that on all of our rentals too. Thanks for the tip!!

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  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    Don't forget a Spanish version of the book!

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  • Account Closed
    Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Aly L:
    Don't forget a Spanish version of the book!
    Obviously, every owner has to decide for themselves on this.

    But, we do not provide it in any language other than English nor do we execute our leases and other agreements in any language other than English.

    There are very specific liability reasons we do not conduct business in any language other than English.

    I am not saying others should do what we do. I am saying you should discuss it in detail with your lawyer.

    Property Book

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  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    I'm not suggesting it from a legal perspective, just a practical one.

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  • Account Closed
    Manhattan, NY · Member since 2008 · 801 posts · 61 votes
    17y

    What is practical about it since it most definitely increases my likelihood of being sued?

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  • Diane Menke
    OP
    Contractor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2008 · 183 posts · 17 votes
    17y

    Aly,

    I would only do English too and not only for the legal reasons. My folks are immigrants and I am gonna tell you, they had to learn American English Gosh Darn It! They have amazing accents but still....again

    Watch that "good deed" leaning you are feeling... its a chant I use tokeep me from giving away the farm or not otherwise maintaining boudaries and limitations.

    I like the added note about ease of sales the book provides. I have given buyers contact info for all the subs who worked on projects. They absolutely loved this. Now they had plumbers and electricians, roofers....everyone who knew their home ready at finger tips. Included too were appliances warranties and specs + reciept copies. The tone at closing went from apprehension to real pleasure for them. For me too since I got a nice check.

    Conversly when I bought a turn key a few years ago, I knew the guys had no permits or reciepts etc. So when we were rangling over price I told them my offer was contingent on recieving all permits. This shut them up and the deal closed in my favour. I had my pros check it for safety and we were ready to rent.

    Good ideas everybody. Thank you.

    Diane

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  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    Legal docs would be in English only of course, but a short how-to book or list on the workings of the rental would be beneficial in whatever language the tenants speak. Luckily my tenants speak Spanish, nothing too obscure.

    I agree on the boundaries. I was a tenant for 9 years in my old apartment, and my landlord was an example I'm trying to follow. He was a good guy to the good tenants, but didn't hesitate to evict for cause.

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  • Mark N.A
    Real Estate Investor · North Carolina · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 483 votes
    17y

    Great and valuable input here.

    As a sad aside, however, my partner/fiancee is working on a different but much-needed book for our college rentals along the lines of "How to Clean Your House".

    Vacuuming, sweeping, when and how to clean a toilet, scouring a sink, scrubbing a tile floor, cleaning a range, proper cleaners to use for each job, and so on and so forth.

    I really can't blame these kids at all for their ignorance, it's the parents.

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  • Diane Menke
    OP
    Contractor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2008 · 183 posts · 17 votes
    17y

    We have had such college students too. They mopped the house ONCE and that was the week before they moved out because we let them know it had to come back to us clean. Needless to say it was not anywhere near sano! It was very difficult to show the house prior to them moving out too. So I am now waiting to try and rent it this period of student turn over.

    I like this book idea more and more even though it puts us in a parental role.

    These are the same students who demanded to see my reciepts for clean out/hauling, cleaning...I had to scour the floors and hire a pro too, painting and repairs. I should have known because when their parents viewed the house with them they suggested adding a bathroom would "add value to the house". Well yeah we told them it would and then the rent would be higher!

    Wow so now we need to teach them about cleaning too?

    We should be paid more each and every one of us for doing this amazing public service! WE ROCK!

    We got a call from the "feeling cold" tenants I started this thread with. They let us know the house feels cold and they are "suffering" since there is "no heat on the first floor". This is an untruth since the heat works.

    We will call tomorrow to see if they did what HVAC man told them to do. If they did they should be fine. If not, we will tease out what exactly it is they want. Right now I think they want free heat and to whine a lot.

    I am a little cranky with the whiners today. Sorry for ranting.

    Diane

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  • J.N. Miller
    Real Estate Professional · seattle, WA · Member since 2008 · 43 posts · 1 vote
    17y

    I just had the exact thing happen last month with a tenant--he called up after moving in within 2 months about the furnace--"there is a burning smell"-it is a new furnace, but I had a company go out--they found nothing, I got a service call bill . A few mon ths go by. Tenant calls again--" furnace still has a burning smell and it is setting off the smoke detector". Again I send a furnace company--they tell me the tenant has half of the floor registers closed--tenant denies this, Again a bill. One week later, tenant calls again--"burning smell, smoke alarm going off"-I call another furnace company--they confirm nothing is wrong, that the tenant has registers covered,with furniture and has one half the registers closed.. both furnace companies have been in business for 40 years, and both within one week come to the same conclusion.-nothing wrong with heat or furnace-- just the tenant closing the registers and blocking other registers with furniture. I personally went to the house- for the third service call -- --on top of finding registers blocked with furniture and registers closed,, I also found an unauthorized fourth resident, and a second big unauthorized dog. . Again--another bill! I just terminated their month to month tenancy-- thank goodness their one year lease had just expired. I am deducting the three unnessary service calls from their damage security deposit, -each receipt states tenant had blocked and closed the registers-- and have added new language to our lease which reads " unnecessary service calls caused by tenants negligence will be deducted from damage security." Just when you think you know everything a tenant can come up with, they find something new.Joann

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  • Tom C
    Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 86 votes
    17y

    Diane,

    I have to say that you eat that cost. In my opinion, you or a representive should have gone over to the house to validate the claim before calling out a service guy. If someone from your company would have gone over there to check it out first, you would have never called in a service guy.

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  • Diane Menke
    OP
    Contractor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2008 · 183 posts · 17 votes
    17y

    Tom I will take your opinion into consideration.

    Please keep in mind these folks were walked through the home appliances by me, and me and my crew did inspect the property to see everything was functional before and when they moved in. Also the gas company inspected the heater before turning the gas on there.

    But let me ask you, is your time free to the tenant for bogus calls?

    What do you pay yourself per hour? Thats what you would have to bill a tenant.

    My time is worth more money per hour to me and my company than my HVAC guy bills me per hour.

    Can you issue an official document attenting to the fact that the HVAC unit is 100% functional like my licensed and insured HAVC guy can? I can not.

    After all, this tenant has already dragged their insurance co, a paying party to the agreement, into the discussions about the heater and the feeling of comfort. I need an official document to be able to present to them, the tenant and in a court room in case I end up there.

    When my tenants or my remodeling customers start talking like they are talking to legal, I have to CYI and I treat them with suspicion. I pull me personally out of the picture and I insert my pros creating my paper trail.

    Its often cheaper and more expeditious to my tenants to hire pros than for me to do it for them.

    Its true I should have said clearly to the tenant, "I can bring in an HVAC pro to certify the unit is 100% but I will have to forward the bill to you would you like me to do that for you?" and so given them an option.

    Diane

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  • Aly W.
    Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Diane Menke:

    Its true I should have said clearly to the tenant, "I can bring in an HVAC pro to certify the unit is 100% but I will have to forward the bill to you would you like me to do that for you?" and so given them an option.

    Diane



    I'm wondering if I should have said that to my tenant about the roaches. It sounds like it would definitely limit bogus calls.

    The exterminator went out there the first time, free, and said he only saw a dead baby roach and some ants. I went there twice, as she said the problem was getting worse, and I saw nothing. I guess I was concerned she would call Section 8 and they would force some action regardless. I told her that I would pay for this treatment, but any future treatments are her responsibility as per the lease.

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  • Jon Holdman
    Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes
    17y

    I had a similar situation. I got a letter from the city saying there were weeds and trash on the property, and I needed to clean it up or they would and would charge me about $300 to do it. I called the tenant and told them about the letter. A few days later, I drove by. It had been cleaned up. I saw the tenant as I was looking at the unit. He said everyone in the neighborhood had received those letters.

    Now, I'd certainly rather not of had that letter. But, I'm also not going to charge the tenant to drive by and have a look. It just goes with the territory of owning rentals.

    So, I think in a situation like this, I would have gone over, had a look, and pointed out the problems. Yes, a hassle. An hours time wasted and $10 in gas. But the situation would have been resolved. I would not have charged the tenant anything.

    Now, if they had repeated no-problem calls like this, I would start charging them.

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  • Diane Menke
    OP
    Contractor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2008 · 183 posts · 17 votes
    17y

    Well a drive by which can happen at any time, is different than sending a crew or me over there, which needs to be scheduled. It can take a few days. HVAC guy gets there next day.

    My crew bills out at $70 per hour + drive time. My time is higher than that. HVAC guy is about the same as my crew, and he can issue a cert.

    These people moved in 2nd week of December '08. That week we were there and everything checked out. Since they moved in each week has been a ring a ding with requests for hotel services, not regular tenant relations.

    If I was marking up like a management company can, the bill to them would be even higher.

    Time for the calvalry.

    May next week be more quiet.

    Cheers and Happy Friday all.

    D

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  • Michael Rossi
    Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    I would take it out of their security deposit, if for no other reason than they were a pain in the butt. I would be willing to fight it out in court if they want ti back!

    Mike

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  • Tom C
    Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 86 votes
    17y

    I understand what you are saying Diane.. Trust me, I hate bogus calls but as John said, it comes with the job sometimes. I have been lucky so far and have been able to screen the issues on the phone before going over.

    I have to say that I agree with you and Mike on this too. If I 50 units an I was getting these types of calls, yes I would have to find a way to recoup my time when it occured.

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